Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

corgski posted:

Sucks to be them.

yup.
Tell them to knock off the full cost of a complete rewire or you're gone.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


This story is really making me feel good, thank you. Maybe knock off $25k and see if they bite?

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



H110Hawk posted:

This story is really making me feel good, thank you. Maybe knock off $25k and see if they bite?

Yup. You're in a good position, assuming you can cough up the cash to get it rewired immediately. I'd suggest getting an estimate, though.

n0tqu1tesane
May 7, 2003

She was rubbing her ass all over my hands. They don't just do that for everyone.

Grimey Drawer

SpartanIvy posted:

They're playing chicken with you hoping you're more desperate than them and they're about to go careening off the cliff.

Definitely. We're currently living in a house we own free and clear, and had the cash for our deposit without having to sell our current house. Hell, we hadn't even really started packing, since we don't have to be out of this house at any specific time, we were going to take our time and do a bit of painting on the new house, and have a relatively leisurely move.

Likely losing the earnest money is an annoyance, but isn't going to make or break us. Same with all the money sunk into inspections, appraisals, and the like.

H110Hawk posted:

This story is really making me feel good, thank you. Maybe knock off $25k and see if they bite?

They've already balked at a $10k price reduction, and when they wanted to close on the original closing date after their lack of completed work was discovered, our agent told them to bring $10k cash and we'd still close, they were pretty pissed about that.

I have a feeling that they're cash strapped, and need to get our offering price to make the deal on their new house work financially, so they're hosed either way.

corgski posted:

Im not a lawyer but it sounds like theyre not holding up their side of the contract, so you should get your earnest money back. Just their failure to produce required permits for the repairs would probably be enough.

In theory, they are absolutely not holding up their side of the contract, and owe us the full amount of earnest money.

In practice, our earnest money was only $1000, so if they're going to be assholes about it, which it looks like they are, that'll get eaten up in lawyer fees if we really wanted to go after it.

n0tqu1tesane fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Apr 6, 2021

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



Im not a lawyer but it sounds like theyre not holding up their side of the contract, so you should get your earnest money back. Just their failure to produce required permits for the repairs would probably be enough.

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

n0tqu1tesane posted:

I have a feeling that they're cash strapped, and need to get our offering price to make the deal on their new house work financially, so they're hosed either way.

Do you really want to buy a house from people this cash strapped? Think of all the other deferred/half-assed maintenance they did that you're going to find.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

n0tqu1tesane posted:

Likely losing the earnest money is an annoyance

You're not losing the earnest money. If you do fire everyone involved on your side of the transaction (realtor, real estate lawyer, whoever you got).


SpartanIvy posted:

Do you really want to buy a house from people this cash strapped? Think of all the other deferred/half-assed maintenance they did that you're going to find.

Also, really think about this question.

n0tqu1tesane
May 7, 2003

She was rubbing her ass all over my hands. They don't just do that for everyone.

Grimey Drawer

SpartanIvy posted:

Do you really want to buy a house from people this cash strapped? Think of all the other deferred/half-assed maintenance they did that you're going to find.

This is exactly why we are not, under any circumstances, buying this house at this point.

They've already proved they're willing to lie to us about things that are easily verified, and rope other people into lying as well, so nothing coming from them can be trusted at all.

Motronic posted:

You're not losing the earnest money. If you do fire everyone involved on your side of the transaction (realtor, real estate lawyer, whoever you got).

Again, it's only $1000, and that doesn't go too far when it comes to forcing the matter in court.

n0tqu1tesane fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 6, 2021

corgski
Feb 6, 2007



n0tqu1tesane posted:

In practice, our earnest money was only $1000, so if they're going to be assholes about it, which it looks like they are, that'll get eaten up in lawyer fees if we really wanted to go after it.

Lawyer fees are their problem unless you have both an exceptionally bad contract that doesnt award fees to the winner in a dispute and a lawyer that wont push for it on something as slam dunk as this.

corgski fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Apr 6, 2021

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader

Whew. Just read two hundred something pages of this thread over the past two days to get caught up, in case my question was addressed. I probably should have been asking questions in this thread for the past three years...sorry about the incoming wall of text.

The short attempt at backstory: 1976 house, Bay Area CA, mostly 14/2 Romex (CU). 125A main panel in, not on, outside wall, right above gas meter (legal in 1976, whoopee). 100A and 60A breaker in main panel, 60A feeding both AC disconnect and backyard hot tub disconnect (feeding both as in, two sets of wires inserted into the breaker....yeah). 100A breaker to subpanel in garage/kitchen wall. AL feeder from main to sub, which was just unceremoniously dropped in the crawlspace, just lying on the ground, yeah, good job there.

Both panels FPE. Sigh.

Been planning to do a main panel upgrade / replace for almost 10 years now. Internet claimed ~$4-7k for 400 amp (I tend to overkill everything). Internet did not know jack poo poo about Bay Area. $7k? $7k was the MINIMUM bid for just panel replacement with me running all the 8 new circuits. Most others bid $15-20k for the entire project. NOT including the 30 foot long 4 foot deep trench to the PG&E vault in my neighbor's yard, which bid at $8-11k because it crosses all the existing service so mechanized digging is out. This was in 2017, I can only imagine it'd be worse now.

So, facing $30k cost I reluctantly said gently caress it and began to plan doing it myself. Before this my electrical experience was replacing all switches in my house and my parents' house with Zwave switches, a couple of outlet replacements, and changing the two T12 fluorescent fixtures in my garage to 13 T8 fixtures, so, not a complete n00b, but had never worked with anything larger than 12 gauge wire. My goal was to do it right and Cadillac it to the point electricians would go "you're an idiot who overspent". But usual story, I value my time at $0/hr so paying for figuratively gold plated parts was worth it for the labor savings and for knowing it was done with a lot of care and attention. Started December 2018, and after three years off and on, I'm about 90% done (working on trench for new conduit run to new AC disconnect / connecting to old conduit run to backyard using a Christy box and King DryConns, and after that it's just the minor detail of "4 foot deep 30 foot trench crossing all existing service with 3" PVC for PGE to run their 1/0 through". Piece of cake).

So much for short backstory. My current () questions, about the part of the process I don't quite understand and haven't been able to find a good answer yet via Google:

1. How exactly does the PoCo/inspector dance go? My understanding is I get the new panel & circuit runs rough inspected, and I have my conduit run for PG&E to run service conductors. Then PG&E runs their stuff and then the inspector has to come back out and verify / final inspection before PG&E lights it up? Is this the reason the electricians who bid on the project mentioned having temp power, for that timeframe between when PG&E hooks up service vs when they light it up? I had thought the inspector was really only responsible to the main breaker and PG&E would deal with everything before that, meaning that once the inspector had passed the panel PG&E could just switch from old to new service at their leisure (which, knowing them, would be a lot of leisure).

Subquestion 1A - Original plan was just replace main panel and leave the subpanel for later, but as I found out more about FPE, I decided to replace subpanel too. I thought about getting an electrician, but having wired the new main panel, I feel like replacing subpanel is doable. Question is, can I leave the SER run to just above the current panel (I'll be bringing all wires out of the wall into a trough, wirenut/Wago to new Romex or XHHW jumpers, and then down through nipples to new subpanel so it's all out of the firewall), and then have the new service switched on with the breaker for that SER off, I power essential things like fridge from the new circuits off new main panel for a weekend while I replace the subpanel, then have it inspected and throw the breaker? I know this is largely a question for my inspector/city, just want opinions from the pros about if this is a workable plan.

2. The PG&E greenbook is somewhat silent on exactly how far the trench / conduit is supposed to go. Am I supposed to run the conduit right into their vault? As much as I feel more confident about wiring in general than I did 3 years ago, I frankly don't feel at all comfortable getting close to those wires, and am somewhat concerned about the part of the trench within 5 feet of the vault where I'm almost certainly going to encounter buried conductors, my own if not my neighbors and (more worryingly) the actual transmission lines coming in from the sidewalk. I had all my lines located by a location service, not just 811, so I'm pretty confident on WHERE they are, I just don't like the idea of having to work around highly energized underground lines. Frankly it's complete bullshit in my opinion that I even HAVE to do all this poo poo - PG&E is, yet again, taking money coming and going by having the homeowner construct and pay for the underground service which PG&E will then own once constructed, but y'know, not much I can do about it.

If you've read this far I appreciate it. Here's a picture of the wired main panel if anyone wants to get an idea of my current work, which I could have done better on but it turns out bending three ought is a goddamn bitch and a half and I decided to be happy with the routing I got. Also I wouldn't have needed the 3/0 except I hosed up in 2018 and didn't realize Schneider puts absurd MSRPs on their website, so instead of getting the QO CSED that actually has a 400 amp breaker, because SE listed it at $7k MSRP, I got the Homeline that has two 200-amp breakers so I needed to add a subpanel below the main (which is what the 3/0 and various 6ga are disappearing into at the bottom), plus it doesn't have PON - definitely the most irritating mistake to me since I wanted Cadillac and got Edsel, and only discovered later that the QO one probably was more like $1k street price. All the other subpanels are QO.



(I plan to remove about half the zipties before this goes live so I'm not technically bundling as much).

I'll definitely have more questions but, y'know, this is already a book.

SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 6, 2021

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL







You put in 400A of panel on a house with gas?

Where's the neutral for that first panel?

Is the nipple connecting your two panels metal? If so it needs a bonding bushing, same with the service gear to panel connection.

Using those huge cable clamps is shoddy, there's no way they're gripping the wire correctly, what is that white stuff in there?

Do you have two meters?

You can trim those curlicue neutrals to neaten things up, if you want.

Do you not have a permit already? Normally you pull the permit, then get it inspected, then have the power company hook it up. Call the utility and your municipality to answer your questions, it varies too much to answer your questions on permitting.

E: are you going to put in a super sweet 40kW DC fast charger for an EV? Or two of them? You could probably do two.

Elviscat fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Apr 6, 2021

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader

>>You put in 400A of panel on a house with gas?

Yes, I basically never wanted to be concerned about circuit load again, and when you're talking about thousands to dig a trench for new conductors, a couple hundred for a bigger panel and extra main breaker isn't much. The new panel had to be in a different spot anyway because of the aforementioned gas meter issue, so even if the old conductors could be used with a 200A upgrade they wouldn't have worked without more Christy box fuckery somewhere in the yard (as built, they stub up in conduit through the foundation right next to the gas meter).

Also, I mean, it's 320A continuous, it's not 400 actual amps, not that I expect to get anywhere close to that anyway.

>>Where's the neutral for that first panel?

Do you mean the 3/0 for the first subpanel under the CSED? Tough to see from that picture but it goes to a lug halfway up just to the right of breaker space #8. Here's an earlier picture before adding breakers.


Everything by the way is torqued down to proper specs, with some extremely expensive torque wrenches.

>>Is the nipple connecting your two panels metal? If so it needs a bonding bushing, same with the service gear to panel connection.

Welp. poo poo. Yeah it's RMC, screwing into a hub on the panel below. That...means I have to pull all the cables back through, remove the plastic bushing, replace with bonding bushing, and rerun the cables? That's...unfortunate, and strikes me now as a rookie mistake, which was exactly the sort I was trying to avoid. (And here I was pleased with myself for making sure there was a bushing on it period). Is there any way to bond it without pulling the cables back through? I assume the locknut doesn't qualify because of the enamel underneath it?

Obviously haven't run the conduit for service gear yet so that can be done, though wouldn't that be something PG&E does?

>>Using those huge cable clamps is shoddy, there's no way they're gripping the wire correctly, what is that white stuff in there?

Yeah this was going to be one of my followup questions. Before I understood how the double main breaker setup worked (which was unfortunately after I mounted the panel, remember when I said I should have been asking questions in this thread 3 years ago), I was planning to run the SER in through those and the Romex in separate holes. White stuff is polyester pull ribbon (the 2500 lb test stuff PG&E asks for for their conduit). I was aware this was not gonna work, so one of the questions was going to be how to fix it. The original clamps were round on the bottom, and I found replacements that had a bend in the middle to make the clamping area narrower. This mostly works for the one of the left that has the main water pipe ground wire, but it absolutely doesn't for the right one. The pull tape was a temporary solution and with it clamped down it does hold well enough, but yes, I was aware this was bullshit. (I could run another ground cable through the right side to go to the gas pipe, although this is already bonded near the water heater as usual, and the water is all copper, but I have no problem doing that through the right clamp if it'll be acceptable).

These clamps, or rather the other side of them, are now caulked into the holes into the wall, so it would be preferred not to replace them, but if that's what needs to be done then I'll do it. If you have any other suggestions I'm all ears. I also had had a question about the acceptability of running Romex there period, but various electrician forums seemed to indicate that in CA it was just kind of accepted to run Romex directly through walls into panels outside, even though it's technically a wet location. And the alternative seemed to be running separate THWN / XHHW to an accessible trough inside and joining to Romex there, which seemed a little absurd.

>>Do you have two meters?

No.

>>You can trim those curlicue neutrals to neaten things up, if you want.

I might do that because they're really annoying, both space-wise and visually.

>>Do you not have a permit already? Normally you pull the permit, then get it inspected, then have the power company hook it up. Call the utility and your municipality to answer your >>questions, it varies too much to answer your questions on permitting.

Yes, I have a permit, revised three times in fact, as I got farther into the project. I guess I'll check with the inspector.

>>E: are you going to put in a super sweet 40kW DC fast charger for an EV? Or two of them? You could probably do two.

Yes, the subpanel underneath the main, besides the 125A breaker with 1-1-1-3 SER intended for the old garage subpanel, has a 100A with 3-3-3-5 going to a new subpanel in the garage which was intended for some combination of 1. woodworking tools, 2. welding, 3. EV chargers. I have no new circuits currently run to that new panel, just the SER terminated on its main breaker. I was going to finish this project first before figuring out what circuits to add there.

Edit: Here's a picture of the subpanel under the CSED, in case there are any huge errors here. Since this picture was taken, I've added seven 6-ga XHHW cables running down the right side and out through the bottom, to go to the Christy box (two hots + ground to go to A/C disconnect, hot/hot/neutral/ground for backyard panel). All ground conduit is PVC however so shouldn't need a bonding bushing.

Solid bare copper on left is the main grounding conductor, going up to main panel. It's connected through one of these.


SyNack Sassimov fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Apr 6, 2021

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



What size is your current PoCo conductor that 1/0 is an upgrade? For reference - the utility I work for would pull 350MCM AL for a legit 400A service.

To your question about how far to dig - call your utility. They definitely do not want you to enter their vault, and 811 should locate all of it including the conductor feeding their vault (or transformer. If it's a metal box and says *number*kVA anywhere. It's a transformer and there's absolutely HV buried lines there) Also, good luck. That's a big part of what I do for a living. Digging on established properties is miserable.

SyNack Sassimov
May 4, 2006

Let the robot win.
            --Captain James T. Vader

angryrobots posted:

What size is your current PoCo conductor that 1/0 is an upgrade? For reference - the utility I work for would pull 350MCM AL for a legit 400A service.

To your question about how far to dig - call your utility. They definitely do not want you to enter their vault, and 811 should locate all of it including the conductor feeding their vault (or transformer. If it's a metal box and says *number*kVA anywhere. It's a transformer and there's absolutely HV buried lines there) Also, good luck. That's a big part of what I do for a living. Digging on established properties is miserable.

Y'know, I just looked back at the PG&E drawing I paid them $1500 for that's basically a printout of my neighborhood / lot lines with a purple line drawn in going from the vault to my new panel location (really guys? Good thing you drew that out for me, I otherwise might have just done the trench in a vague meandering S shape), and I think I've been misreading this. It looks like the existing service is in fact 1/0 TPX direct-buried (which....yikes, according to my neighbor who's been here since the development was built the electrical lines are barely a foot down). The new service is listed as "320 AMS 120/240V 3W 1 phase SCI=18,000", which 3 years ago was gibberish to me but I now mostly understand, unless AMS is a utility acronym and not a typo of AMPS. So it looks like they just haven't listed what they're going to pull.

The drawing says the vault is a secondary splice box so I'm presuming not transformer, and it's definitely concrete (they actually replaced it with a bigger vault as part of this project, two years ago, and I got a glimpse of it briefly from 20 feet away before they chased me off).

I did originally call 811 back in 2017 and they marked the conductors coming in from the street, so with that plus the locating service markings I have a decent idea of where all the dangerous poo poo is, but it's good to know I shouldn't have to connect right into the vault. I'll call PG&E to see how close I need to get, or rather, how far away I can be.

I was rather hoping you'd chime in given your responses in the thread as a utility guy, so thanks, it's helpful to get that perspective. Also my denigration of PG&E should in no way be taken as a denigration of all utilities, utility people, or even people who work for PG&E. Just that their MO as a company seems to be cheap out where possible, grab all the money, and deal with the lawsuits when gas lines explode or transmission towers set the state on fire, so I have very low expectations when it comes to this particular utility.

edit: if I get a Motronic response can I yell bingo

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

If I'd had the physics wall space for it I'd have stuck a 400 amp panel on my tiny rear end house. Why not go as big as possible since the cost to do it is minimal.

But no, I had to settle for 200 amps for my 900 sqft house

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





SyNack Sassimov posted:


1)
Yes, I basically never wanted to be concerned about circuit load again, and when you're talking about thousands to dig a trench for new conductors, a couple hundred for a bigger panel and extra main breaker isn't much. The new panel had to be in a different spot anyway because of the aforementioned gas meter issue, so even if the old conductors could be used with a 200A upgrade they wouldn't have worked without more Christy box fuckery somewhere in the yard (as built, they stub up in conduit through the foundation right next to the gas meter).

Also, I mean, it's 320A continuous, it's not 400 actual amps, not that I expect to get anywhere close to that anyway.


2)
Do you mean the 3/0 for the first subpanel under the CSED? Tough to see from that picture but it goes to a lug halfway up just to the right of breaker space #8. Here's an earlier picture before adding breakers.


Everything by the way is torqued down to proper specs, with some extremely expensive torque wrenches.

3)

Welp. poo poo. Yeah it's RMC, screwing into a hub on the panel below. That...means I have to pull all the cables back through, remove the plastic bushing, replace with bonding bushing, and rerun the cables? That's...unfortunate, and strikes me now as a rookie mistake, which was exactly the sort I was trying to avoid. (And here I was pleased with myself for making sure there was a bushing on it period). Is there any way to bond it without pulling the cables back through? I assume the locknut doesn't qualify because of the enamel underneath it?

Obviously haven't run the conduit for service gear yet so that can be done, though wouldn't that be something PG&E does?

4)

Yeah this was going to be one of my followup questions. Before I understood how the double main breaker setup worked (which was unfortunately after I mounted the panel, remember when I said I should have been asking questions in this thread 3 years ago), I was planning to run the SER in through those and the Romex in separate holes. White stuff is polyester pull ribbon (the 2500 lb test stuff PG&E asks for for their conduit). I was aware this was not gonna work, so one of the questions was going to be how to fix it. The original clamps were round on the bottom, and I found replacements that had a bend in the middle to make the clamping area narrower. This mostly works for the one of the left that has the main water pipe ground wire, but it absolutely doesn't for the right one. The pull tape was a temporary solution and with it clamped down it does hold well enough, but yes, I was aware this was bullshit. (I could run another ground cable through the right side to go to the gas pipe, although this is already bonded near the water heater as usual, and the water is all copper, but I have no problem doing that through the right clamp if it'll be acceptable).

These clamps, or rather the other side of them, are now caulked into the holes into the wall, so it would be preferred not to replace them, but if that's what needs to be done then I'll do it. If you have any other suggestions I'm all ears. I also had had a question about the acceptability of running Romex there period, but various electrician forums seemed to indicate that in CA it was just kind of accepted to run Romex directly through walls into panels outside, even though it's technically a wet location. And the alternative seemed to be running separate THWN / XHHW to an accessible trough inside and joining to Romex there, which seemed a little absurd.

5)

No.

6)


Yes, I have a permit, revised three times in fact, as I got farther into the project. I guess I'll check with the inspector.


Numbered for ease.

1) you are never going to draw 38,400 watts continuous, unless you live in an insane mansion, the future is moving to more energy efficiency, not less, even with 2 12kW car chargers running (which would be insane overkill on its own) you could still cook Thanksgiving dinner while planing down boards and welding and still turn every light in the house on, without your service being a Byzantine nightmare. But you did it already so whatever, if you ever hit that 320A continuous you'll make that 1/0 from PG&E glow


2) I can't see where any neutral enters the enclosure from the CSED.


3) no, you have to pull the conductors and slip a bonding bushing over them.

A mistake I never made in my professional career, nosiree (lol)

The reason for the bonding bushing is even if the locknut is well installed and bighting through the enamel as designed, it/the enclosure simply can't carry enough current to ensure that a 200A breaker trips, they tend to start glowing first.

4) the only way to do it right is pull the panel and install appropriately sized cable clamps.

I don't have a ton of experience with this because we don't put panels outside up here, and I posted a code article like a page back that could be used to fail the installation like a page back, but yeah, that's how they do it in dry areas, any other solution would be ridiculous overkill.

5)
I don't know if you meet the section 230.71 requirements for two service disconnecting means then.

6) good!

E:

SpartanIvy posted:

If I'd had the physics wall space for it I'd have stuck a 400 amp panel on my tiny rear end house. Why not go as big as possible since the cost to do it is minimal.

But no, I had to settle for 200 amps for my 900 sqft house

Copper is a limited resource folks, 200A is the upper limit on commonly available residential electric service stuff for a reason.

Elviscat fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Apr 6, 2021

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Elviscat posted:

Numbered for ease.

1) you are never going to draw 38,400 watts continuous,

Coward.

movax
Aug 30, 2008




Come on, you can do some 1-2 C rate charging of your EV, or some really high-end testing!

e: is 200 A really the common residential norm? Mine is from the 80s, so I figured it would be potentially anemic. I'd have to simultaneously run the hot tub w/ jets full tilt, and have the kitchen electric cooktop going with all the burners, maybe the oven at the same time for good measure, and then also kick on the dryer and washer to get close to it. Then again, in the winter, if I had a few in-wall heaters going, could get close to it. I don't have a master breaker, so I assume something upstream in the meter would go pop?

No idea if Seattle could even do a 400 A upgrade for me here; multi-unit complex and the vault / nearby transformer would have to have capacity to make that happen, right? Maybe solar is the way.

movax fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Apr 6, 2021

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


What, you mean you're not running a 10BBL brewing setup in your house?

You could maybe hit 320 if you had a tankless electric water heater right? Probably wouldn't happen much if ever, but it's conceivable.

gwrtheyrn fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Apr 6, 2021

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



A lot of contractors here use a 400A or 320A meter base here, just because those use bolted lugs which makes it easier to serve 2+ separate panels.

We don't necessarily size everything to the meter base they install, really it's by expected load. A big custom built house with gas appliances and heat may have multiple panels and lots of circuits, but pulls less load than a lovely old single wide trailer with a heat pump and electric dryer running.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


Yeah, 38kw is just an insane amount of power, or one tankless electric water heater in the winter. ( https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-36-kw-Self-Modulating-7-03-GPM-Tankless-Electric-Water-Heater-RETEX-36/300800822 ) This is why people should never do tankless electric.

200A is common for gas-fueled homes around me. It's way more than the house "needs" given the efficiencies of modern appliances but it makes it easy to run what you want, when you want. My AC pulls around 3.5kw at full tilt, everything else is roughly a rounding error, and the house draws around 350w at "idle." I've spent a LOT of time in the backyard this pandemic, and one of the things in plain view is the meter.

tater_salad
Sep 15, 2007




yeah I"m at 100 or 120 amps currently I'd like to upgrade to 200amps.

I'm in a gas house, but would like to go to a heat pump/minisplit for a bedroom that has difficulty getting heat. Id' also like to go with a sub-panel going to the garage instead of the 15a single circuit I have now. (I had to remove one circuit because it was run as a flying splice to the garage and an outdoor light (overhead ligths) and was literally plugged in to a basement outlet.

tater_salad fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Apr 6, 2021

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





movax posted:

Come on, you can do some 1-2 C rate charging of your EV, or some really high-end testing!

e: is 200 A really the common residential norm? Mine is from the 80s, so I figured it would be potentially anemic. I'd have to simultaneously run the hot tub w/ jets full tilt, and have the kitchen electric cooktop going with all the burners, maybe the oven at the same time for good measure, and then also kick on the dryer and washer to get close to it. Then again, in the winter, if I had a few in-wall heaters going, could get close to it. I don't have a master breaker, so I assume something upstream in the meter would go pop?

No idea if Seattle could even do a 400 A upgrade for me here; multi-unit complex and the vault / nearby transformer would have to have capacity to make that happen, right? Maybe solar is the way.

City Light will drop you the same 1/0 aluminum as everyone else, and upgrade the transformer once it catches on fire.

I've done 400A services in Seattle, but they were all for large houses (3,000 sqft+) with resistive electric heat, which basically takes its own panel, with another 200A panel for hotel loads.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

n0tqu1tesane posted:

Again, it's only $1000, and that doesn't go too far when it comes to forcing the matter in court.

I don't think you understand why I'm saying everyone on your side of the transaction needs to be fired if they can't get this back. It's not about the $1,000. It's about competence. If they can't do that you shouldn't be using them for future transactions either because they suck at their job(s).

Blindeye
Sep 22, 2006

I can't believe I kissed you!


Jeez I have a 3br home and only 200A service without gas but I have never had issues even with an old central heat/air system and a climate that can hit 110F in the summer.

What the heck size houses do you all have?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Blindeye posted:

Jeez I have a 3br home and only 200A service without gas but I have never had issues even with an old central heat/air system and a climate that can hit 110F in the summer.

What the heck size houses do you all have?
I've got 200 amp service in a 4000+ sq ft home which has a bit of electric heating (main heat is oil), electrically heated tile in a gigantic kitchen, heated tile in the master bath, an electric steam shower, etc. I've yet to worry about running out of power. I'm not sure how home size even matters in terms of loads anymore. You've probably got one kitchen and the rest are/should be LED light bulbs for the most part. Number of bedrooms maybe?

Edit: look back through the previous year on Sense the highest peak sustained load I've had that it reported was under 50 amps.

Motronic fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 6, 2021

B-Nasty
May 25, 2005



My load calc for a 2600sq/ft house is 93A for general plus 65A for heating, with 15KW backup electric strips for the primary heat pump and an additional 1 ton minisplit. Even with a car charger, my 200A service is more than enough even with conservative calcs.

If I actually pulled anywhere near 48KVA, we could cook burgers on top of that pad transformer over in my neighbor's yard.

movax
Aug 30, 2008



Elviscat posted:

City Light will drop you the same 1/0 aluminum as everyone else, and upgrade the transformer once it catches on fire.

I've done 400A services in Seattle, but they were all for large houses (3,000 sqft+) with resistive electric heat, which basically takes its own panel, with another 200A panel for hotel loads.

Im on a part of the hill that actually has no gas service (lol earthquakes), so everything is electric for me. Half of my primary panel is tandem 2 poles for in-wall heating...

If its already a properly sized run to the meter though, Im lucky to be an end unit, so technically it would just be through my concrete garage wall and a big rear end RMC conduit along the wall...

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran

I had to install a 400A panel for a 4000sqft house because the occupant wanted more outlets than the minimum. After load calcs, there was like 30kVA required for all the outlets. After all the other loads, we put in a 400A. The poco looked at the house and the load calc sheet and still ran 100A worth of service to the house. I lost track after a few years, but the occupant never complained about power problems.

Last I heard he'd gotten ~80kW of solar installed and that big industrial 400A panel got replaced by a 400A interlocking ATS meterbase and he's selling back gobs of power to the utility.

edited for clarity.

babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 6, 2021

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Blindeye posted:

Jeez I have a 3br home and only 200A service without gas but I have never had issues even with an old central heat/air system and a climate that can hit 110F in the summer.

What the heck size houses do you all have?

You're trying to go from 110 outside to, what? 70 inside? That's only a 40 degree swing, and only during the peak of the daytime heat.
Here, it can be single digits for a week at a time. That's a 60+ gradient. Up north, it'll be 10-20 below zero for weeks at a time. 80 gradient plus wind losses means it's easy to need a shitload of power. Especially as we move to a more electric-based HVAC system for renewable energy reasons.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





movax posted:

I’m on a part of the hill that actually has no gas service (lol earthquakes), so everything is electric for me. Half of my primary panel is tandem 2 poles for in-wall heating...

If it’s already a properly sized run to the meter though, I’m lucky to be an end unit, so technically it would “just” be through my concrete garage wall and a big rear end RMC conduit along the wall...

Mostly the 400A services are for electric furnaces, which just draw gobs of power, my parent's old place up in Bothell had one panel that was just 2 80A breakers for the heating elements.

They ended up replacing it with a heat pump, that was about 7.5kW with another 10kW strip heat, and perfectly fine for that house (it never used the strip heat) they probably could have gotten away with downsizing to 200A if they wanted to.

stevewm
May 10, 2005


My house is entirely electric with a heat pump. During the winter I've had short periods where basically every high power device in my house was on simultaneously. (water heater, clothes dryer, car charger, heat pump, aux heat strips, dish washer) I've seen 31kW (129A!) peak readouts on my energy monitor during these times. Not sure how accurate it is at high current, but the current clamps are rated up to 200A.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



sharkytm posted:

You're trying to go from 110° outside to, what? 70 inside? That's only a 40 degree swing, and only during the peak of the daytime heat.
Here, it can be single digits for a week at a time. That's a 60+° gradient. Up north, it'll be 10-20 below zero for weeks at a time. 80° gradient plus wind losses means it's easy to need a shitload of power. Especially as we move to a more electric-based HVAC system for renewable energy reasons.

I'd argue the exact opposite of that is true. Renewable energy is fickle and energy storage will be expensive and of limited use for the foreseeable future. We need a push towards efficiency in energy consumption and in structure insulation.

H110Hawk
Dec 28, 2006


stevewm posted:

My house is entirely electric with a heat pump. During the winter I've had short periods where basically every high power device in my house was on simultaneously. (water heater, clothes dryer, car charger, heat pump, aux heat strips, dish washer) I've seen 31kW (129A!) peak readouts on my energy monitor during these times. Not sure how accurate it is at high current, but the current clamps are rated up to 200A.

More accurate than at low readings, assuming it's in the middle of its metering range.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

angryrobots posted:

I'd argue the exact opposite of that is true. Renewable energy is fickle and energy storage will be expensive and of limited use for the foreseeable future. We need a push towards efficiency in energy consumption and in structure insulation.
We can push all we want (and we should), but moving off of fossil fuels is going to add electrical demand, and that's not even mentioning EVs. I'm fine with that, BTW. I have solar on my house, and I'm doing what I can to move my energy to electric (heat pumps, and EV, etc).

However, there are a lot of places here in New England on 80A electrical and oil heat/hot water, or gas, and they're not gonna work on 80A electric in the future. It doesn't matter how much insulation you have, when you turn on an on-demand water unit, it's gonna draw some serious power. Lots of the rest of the country is all-electric, so it won't need such a huge shift, but NE is still largely oil/gas.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



I'm all for your nuclear future, just need to get the NIMBYs on board.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran

sharkytm posted:

We can push all we want (and we should), but moving off of fossil fuels is going to add electrical demand, and that's not even mentioning EVs. I'm fine with that, BTW. I have solar on my house, and I'm doing what I can to move my energy to electric (heat pumps, and EV, etc).

However, there are a lot of places here in New England on 80A electrical and oil heat/hot water, or gas, and they're not gonna work on 80A electric in the future. It doesn't matter how much insulation you have, when you turn on an on-demand water unit, it's gonna draw some serious power. Lots of the rest of the country is all-electric, so it won't need such a huge shift, but NE is still largely oil/gas.

Heat pump all the things. Technology has advanced to the point where you can have heat pump hot water/house heating/clothes drying/etc, even in winter temperatures. New construction with lot-clearing should come with ground-source loops by default; grading a plot already involves that amount of earthwork.

What I'm saying is: no more resistive heating elements. It's the absolute worst way to convert electricity to heat.

angryrobots posted:

I'm all for your nuclear future, just need to get the NIMBYs on board.

Yup. Local generation, local distribution. If you had a subdivision-scale reactor, you could even have community heating nearly for free, further reducing the heating load.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Heat pump all the things. Technology has advanced to the point where you can have heat pump hot water/house heating/clothes drying/etc, even in winter temperatures. New construction with lot-clearing should come with ground-source loops by default; grading a plot already involves that amount of earthwork.

What I'm saying is: no more resistive heating elements. It's the absolute worst way to convert electricity to heat.


Yup. Local generation, local distribution. If you had a subdivision-scale reactor, you could even have community heating nearly for free, further reducing the heating load.

Yeah, definitely heat pump everything. They really fall on their faces when it gets crazy cold, though. I have a HyperHeat Mitsubishi at my shop that struggles to heat a 250sqft lab when it's below 0F out. The Fujitsu unit at my house turns from a 48k btu unit into appx a 24k btu unit at 10F. I use it for heat in the shoulder seasons, but it can't keep up in the winter, so we burn gas and wood. Ground source would really change that, but it's not really an option here (plus the house was built in the early 80s).

sharkytm fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Apr 6, 2021

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

I'm not sure why heat pumps aren't more popular in Texas. Our frost line is like 1" and it rarely gets very cold here, usually not even below freezing. It would save so much electricity.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

SpartanIvy posted:

Texas.

save electricity.
Contradiction in terms!

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply