Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
KKKLIP ART
Sep 3, 2004



What is the deal with refrigerators and AFCI/GFCI protection?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





SpartanIvy posted:

My only issue with putting everything on its own circuit is my breaker slots. I have a 30 slot panel with 4 being taken up by a whole house surge protector and an interlocked generator breaker. Since basically everything is supposed to be GFCI and AFCI protected now tandem breakers aren't an option. Even being liberal with load calculations I don't exceed my 200 amp service so it's purely a breaker space issue.

I'm already toying with the idea of a sub panel nippled off to the side as once I try to add an EV charger I'm out of space already.

If you have the space to nipple off a sub, now would be the time to do it.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran

B-Nasty posted:

Say what? Maybe for small, low-wattage countertop models, but most over-the-range or built-in models at an actual usable size (>1.6 cuft) have been at around a 14A nameplate for years. There's a reason why this became a required dedicated circuit, because running almost any other kitchen appliance on a circuit with the micro will pop the breaker no problem.

Good point. The standard 1800W countertop microwave oven has come down in current rating on the nameplate, but big built-ins with magic stuff inside can stay at 14A and just cook better.


KKKLIP ART posted:

What is the deal with refrigerators and AFCI/GFCI protection?

Years ago, early GFCIs would "nuisance trip" because old fridge motors liked to backfeed and arc when shutting off. A fridge made in the last decade or so shouldn't do that; a GFCI made in the last decade or so shouldn't do that, either.

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

Elviscat posted:

If you have the space to nipple off a sub, now would be the time to do it.

Unfortunately in the "easy" spot to put it I don't, as illustrated with the frowny face. I would have to go to smiley face route, which would require bending some conduit.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





You could get some LFMC for that, even SER, if your jurisdiction allows it, PVC would work too, though it'd look a little poo poo.

E: man I do not like how that contractor installed that mast, 1 hole straps, that looks like over 3' of unguyed mast through the roof, your soffit is definitely taking the weight of that service mast.

Around here it's uni-strut lagged to framing members for support out of the meter base, and back-guying for support over 24", pretty sure those are both local codes though.

Elviscat fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Apr 8, 2021

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

Elviscat posted:

You could get some LFMC for that, even SER, if your jurisdiction allows it, PVC would work too, though it'd look a little poo poo.

E: man I do not like how that contractor installed that mast, 1 hole straps, that looks like over 3' of unguyed mast through the roof, your soffit is definitely taking the weight of that service mast.

Around here it's uni-strut lagged to framing members for support out of the meter base, and back-guying for support over 24", pretty sure those are both local codes though.

I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't.

And I think PVC looks better than LFMC but Id probably paint it if I go PVC. Still not sure which material makes the most sense.

SpartanIvy fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 8, 2021

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran

SpartanIvy posted:

I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't.

And I think PVC looks better than LFMC but Id probably paint it if I go PVC. Still not sure which material makes the most sense.

If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps.

Regardless of how you do it, hopping that mast is going to look pretty janky. Least janky-looking would be a single-piece rigid saddle bend connecting the tops of both boxes. Back-to-back 90s with a little kick in the middle would be a good masterpiece study in 1 1/4" rigid.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





SpartanIvy posted:

I don't like it either. The bottom two straps aren't even that well secured! I'm going to put conduit strut behind it and secure it to framing in the wall like you said. I just need to finish patching the wall behind it before I do. The guy lines arent required from what I can find. I figure that them missing would have been an obvious thing for the inspector and power guy to point out, which they didn't.

And I think PVC looks better than LFMC but Id probably paint it if I go PVC. Still not sure which material makes the most sense.

That's awesome, that'll be a big improvement.

That's a crappy run to have to make for that sub.

E:

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps.

I hate to disagree, but single hole straps aren't adequate to support a mast with a strike on it, no matter what they're screwed into, that soffit's what's holding that conduit to the house right now, and those straps are window-dressing.

Elviscat fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Apr 8, 2021

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

If the straps go into studs, then it's probably fine. If not, then absolutely get some strut into studs and some strut clamps.

The small screws barely go through the siding. It's bad.

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

Regardless of how you do it, hopping that mast is going to look pretty janky. Least janky-looking would be a single-piece rigid saddle bend connecting the tops of both boxes. Back-to-back 90s with a little kick in the middle would be a good masterpiece study in 1 1/4" rigid.

Just a 90->22.5->45->22.5->90 degree bend. How hard could it be?

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





You may be able to rent a bender, I think 45⁰/90⁰/45⁰ is your best bet, or 45⁰/45⁰/45⁰/45⁰

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Elviscat posted:

I hate to disagree, but single hole straps aren't adequate to support a mast with a strike on it, no matter what they're screwed into, that soffit's what's holding that conduit to the house right now, and those straps are window-dressing.

The crappy way it's done as pictured is the standard here. I wish guyed masts were done here - never seen one except when I'm out of town.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





Gross!

I wish the NEC was more specific.

Here's the local utility's requirements, which seem like a good starting point, but I "grew up" doing it this way, so it's what "properly attached" means to me.



Of course it's prone to abuse, I helped a buddy put in a service over there last year, and the inspector was a total dick, wouldn't let me set the meter in the original location because it was 7' off the ground, City Light then said that was fine, but it would require bollards, which were literally impossible because they'd block a shared, eased, driveway, so we had to run 60' of 2" rigid around the house, then as a cherry on top, he made me replace the RSS's I used to attach the strut to the house with 3/8" lags, even after I showed him the "MEETS ALL CODE STANDARDS TO BE EQUIVALENT TO A 3/8" LAG BOLT" emblazoned all over the box

E: I've also seen too many masts and meters torn off the siding by siding guys, they tend to be more careful around a piece of strut, and will side around it.

Elviscat fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Apr 8, 2021

devicenull
May 30, 2007



Grimey Drawer

SpartanIvy posted:

Unfortunately in the "easy" spot to put it I don't, as illustrated with the frowny face. I would have to go to smiley face route, which would require bending some conduit.



Can you just move your air conditioner connection, and go on the bottom?

Rufio
Feb 6, 2003

I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

Why not go straight up into the attic then straight back down to where you want it? It would be more wire but you could avoid that funky saddle.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time)

Blackbeer
Aug 13, 2007

well, well, well

angryrobots posted:

Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time)

My state has really cracked down on this kind of thing around here. I can't run the line and load in the same conduit to the exterior disconnect (mostly thinking about underground services to trailer houses, which needed exterior disconnects even prior to the 2020 all-in changes) as they are (basically) overcurrent-protected differently.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



Per some quick googling, the electrician concensus that I found is that running back though the meter base isn't really prohibited by 230.7 as you don't have line and load in the same raceway (assuming you run a new conduit from the panel), but it falls afoul of common sense and many inspectors and most POCO's won't allow it. Which is for the best really.

Pretty sure I've seen new ATS/Generator retrofits that definitely run line and load in one conduit though, with a nice fresh inspection sticker ready for us to reconnect though. I'll definitely be paying attention to that now.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





I'm pretty sure that the meter enclosure should be considered a "raceway" for the purpose of 230.7

The issue to me, and my take on the intention behind that article, is you specifically shouldn't run fused and unfused conductors together, since a short circuit could compromise over current and fault protection.

That also wouldn't really apply to a genset, as those are typically fused at the generator itself, and besides really huge industrial applications, can't provide nearly as much fault current as a transformer off a medium voltage supply.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



I meant the line from the bottom of the meter, and the load coming back from the ATS being in the same conduit... That would definitely fall afoul of 230.7 right?

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





Oh yeah, clearly and unequivocally, I've never seen that setup.

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

devicenull posted:

Can you just move your air conditioner connection, and go on the bottom?



Possibly depending on the conduit size I need. It's a real tight fit though because of the brick ledge there.



Rufio posted:

Why not go straight up into the attic then straight back down to where you want it? It would be more wire but you could avoid that funky saddle.

That seems like it'd be a nightmare to route the conduit back around to come out. I can't get that close to the soffit from the attic.

angryrobots posted:

Use the meter base as a chase. (I don't know the legality of this, but I see it all the time)
Thought of that and decided against it because of the many reasons also discussed here.



In other news I got some 14 gauge conduit strut last night and it just barely doesn't slide behind the mast. After I cut it down to the appropriate width I'm going to try and persuade it with a rubber mallet. It's no more than a 1/16" too thick.

Rufio
Feb 6, 2003

I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!

What about using a tray cable? I believe you could get something rated for wet/damp to be able to use in the outdoor conduit and also able to route in the attic without conduit.

SpartanIvy
May 18, 2007


Hair Elf

Rufio posted:

What about using a tray cable? I believe you could get something rated for wet/damp to be able to use in the outdoor conduit and also able to route in the attic without conduit.

That seems like it'd be just as much work to install since the real issue is it's basically impossible to get near my soffit in the attic.

In other news, I got 1 of 3 conduit struts installed. This one was able to span two studs, but the others will only attach to 1+siding because the breaker box is in the way.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

MESS WITH THE OWL GET DISEMBOWEL





That one strut is probably an order of magnitude stronger than all three one hole clamps together, and three of them is overboard for that short run anyway.

Those meyers hubs are spaced to give you exactly 1 shallow unistrut of clearance between the siding and conduit, you can tell that they had to bend the poo poo out of the cable clamps to make them "fit".

E: conduit clamps.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Boxman
Sep 27, 2004

Big fan of




This is such a basic question it could probably go in the quick question thread, but there's a wiring thread right here so what the heck.

What do I do with an unneeded neutral wire? I'm replacing a malfunctioning smart switch with a simple switch, so i suspect there's a neutral wire in there I won't need. I'm seeing "just throw a wire nut on there to insulated it" from brief google searches, but I'm not quite confident enough to follow through without goon approval.

EDIT: Also I've installed switches before (although I was going from busted smart to smart,) and I think I know the answer to this, but...load and line are interchangeable for these things, right? I could see where mixing the two up for a GFCI switch could be bad, but for simple switches, I don't think it matters? My plan is to just keep orientations of wires between switches (which should be safe), but I figure I'd ask anyway.

Boxman fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Apr 10, 2021

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply