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Forgot about this thread and posted in the Fix it Fast thread. Cross-post + new question. Some updates since the last post. Just bought the house, built in 1947. Kitchen was remodeled but no GFCI's installed. I bought a 3 pack but that is a project for another post. Replacing a incandescent dimmer switch: It all fit when I took it apart. LED compatible dimmer installed to hopefully remove flicker. It worked, one isolated light still flickers. I think I'm just going to take out the bulb for now until I can work up the willpower to hire an electrician to crawl in the attic. We know from the inspection it's missing the cover on the box.  Replacing a incandescent dimmer switch which was hooked up to a fan (thanks!) with a light switch. Is it possible to add a grounding wire while I have it open or is that a silly idea because what would it even ground to?  Update: Switch installed, fan struggling noises and LED light flicker are gone. Turns out there are 2 outlets, 8 recessed halogens, an outside porch light, 3 fans w/ quad lights, and 5 other misc light fixtures on this 15A breaker. It spans all 3 bedrooms, the living/dining room, and the laundry room. All bulbs have been replaced with LEDs now (see first dimmer switch.) I haven' tested any other outlets yet for fear of finding more things hooked up. Same circuit, wanted to flip a light switch so up was on. Please tell me this isn't just cloth insulated wire:  This room also has the last 2-prong in the house. I see from the original post that I should throw a GFCI in there, I will do that soon.
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Sep 20, 2015 01:56
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kid sinister posted:Don't forget your tamper resistant GFCIs in the kitchen. Awesome, thanks. I have a 3-pack of tamper resistant leviton 'smartlockpro' gfci's I originally bought for the kitchen. Might need more, depends on the mysteries behind the face plates in the kitchen. Now, one is going in the 2-prong and one in the back room behind the garage to plug the mower in (something something don't kill yourself when you run over the extension cord.) I will read the 2->3 prong conversion thread. The outside porch light on Ye Olde Longass Circuit flickers and dies. Removed the bulb and disassembled it, there is certainly a ground wire doing what they do best: Hanging out not connected to anything. Put it back together sans bulb because I didn't have the right tools to repair it at that very moment. The woven cloth is on some kind of rubber looking/feeling substance. Is there anything to be concerned with there? I know both fiber and rubber degrade over time. I'm going to assume it's original to the house putting it at 68 years old. Thanks for the tip on the tape, we do have hardwood.
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Sep 21, 2015 19:42
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You should only need one GFCI outlet per circuit, since it detects ground faults on the entire circuit, not just for things that are plugged into it. You may overestimate how much circuit tracing I want to do, unless this it's out of code for me to add them excessively? (All accessible.) I haven't mapped my entire breaker box yet, so I don't know if I have 1 or 2 breakers covering the kitchen.
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Sep 21, 2015 19:59
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ausgezeichnet posted:I've gotten 25 years of use out of this book and it's updates. It's worth way more than the $10.50 it costs on Amazon. If you use this to build understanding, you can refer to the NEC for data on conductor size, box fill, etc. Thanks for this, I just bought it to have as a easy reference. Also I saw a month or so back in the thread low voltage cat5e vs cat6: cat5 (and 5e) is absolutely rated at 1000 mbps full duplex for 100 meters (not feet.) The 5e spec only improves crosstalk reduction for noisy environments. This is more important in commercial installations with large fluorescent ballasts than at home. Cat 6 provides further reduction in cross talk and adds 10gig capability for the same 100 meters, with 6a bringing us to 500MHz and even more crosstalk reduction. Assuming your home is a normal home you can rig the jankiest looking cat5 cable for 100 feet (<1/3 the spec) and likely still get 1gbps performance out of it. If you are running it through your CFLs as a way of supporting it and it goes around your microwave several times by way of a service loop you should consider Cat7 STP.
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Sep 22, 2015 14:28
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H110Hawk posted:You may overestimate how much circuit tracing I want to do, unless this it's out of code for me to add them excessively? (All accessible.) I haven't mapped my entire breaker box yet, so I don't know if I have 1 or 2 breakers covering the kitchen. "Wiring Simplified" came in, looks like good reading material. I re-read our inspection report. Looks like I have nothing to worry about with the 2-pronger because none of our 3-prong outlets have ground either. I walked the house today with one of those 3-light outlet testers and confirmed, plus found a hot/neutral flipped one. The GFCI in the first bathroom tests good both with the plugin tester and both outlets turn off if I press the test button. The second bathroom has a single gang non-gfci switch/outlet. This just became way more than I had hoped. Our lights in the ceiling still have the occasional generalized flicker where they all do it at once, plus 2/8 of them aggressively flicker and have now died. I don't know if it's a bulb thing or what at this point. Same circuit our porch light is on which also flickers and dies. Is this something our "home warranty" should cover? Is this a "it depends" sort of scenario? I assume the demarcation of "Fixtures" vs. the rest is the little wires that stub out from the fixture to splice onto? "Electrical System/Doorbell/Smoke Detectors Covered: All parts and components that affect operation. Not Covered: Fixtures - alarms/intercoms and circuits - inadequate wiring capacity - power failure or surge - low voltage wiring - direct current (D.C.) wiring or components - lights." Lower right shows the uncovered jbox and one of the light fixtures in question along with the random trash that go up there who knows how:  Gratuitous picture of my box:  Our garage is a thing of nightmares. I'm not even going to start on that for now, but it reads a lot like "Uncle Jimmy's good with tools, I bet he could do that!" H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 02:51
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kid sinister posted:The code book lists both, sections 210.8 and 210.12 I think. The most recent code book is also linked in the OP. The link in OP is dead. I found a draft of it, but I don't know what changed between the draft and the actual 2014 NEC.
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Oct 8, 2015 04:50
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kid sinister posted:That's weird. The NFPA, the authority who publishes the NEC along with other building code books, has it available on their site for free. Well, you can view it but can't print it. You'll have to make an account there and verify the email: Thanks! I stalled out at making an account, I didn't believe them. I have it now. NEC 705.12(D)(1) is what I was looking at while randomly googling those seemingly against code "plug in" solar inverters: http://smile.amazon.com/iMeshbean%C2%AE-Inverter-Converter-10-8v-30v-Seller/dp/B004TVEF8Y/ . I'm sure there are other sections in there which make it against code to hook one of those things up. They appear to be made of chinesium and fire.
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Oct 8, 2015 17:55
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CMvan46 posted:Shut the breaker off for that circuit and pull it out of the wall. If you see no ground wire going back into your wall to the grounding screw then it was not fixed. If you see a small looped wire that doesn't go anywhere but just stays on the outlet you have a bootleg ground. Just so I'm clear - literally what you had prior to work being done right? (The "neutral" wire providing the path away from you.)
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Oct 27, 2015 22:40
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After many funny stories later, we think we're getting our dishwasher plumbed in today. The outlet under the sink where it would plug in isn't configured correctly to be switched+always-hot. Before I start work, I wanted to make sure these diagrams looked correct: http://ask-the-electrician.com/disposal-wiring-diagram.html They seem sane to me.
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Dec 8, 2015 16:33
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I'm going to tape this inside of my currently unlabeled panel, any suggestions? I have the address and date at the top. It's printed on a laser printer so dampness won't cause it to run.  We had a dishwasher installed and I became curious if there were any hilarious caveats to running it (toaster+microwave+electric kettle+refrigerator startup+dishwasher+coffee machine would = sadness.) Draws 1150watts when the heating element is on, 10-30watts otherwise, 1kwh per "normal" cycle so says my kill-a-watt.
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Dec 13, 2015 02:00
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kid sinister posted:Yep! Cover that missing knockout. Fine, dad.  You're of course correct, it's been on my list since we bought the place, it winds up being out of site out of mind. I took a high resolution picture of the panel. I don't know which model panel this is, or how important it would be to finding the correct parts. Googling seems to indicate fillers are typically for a list of models like: " Zinsco- Q,QB,QB24,R38,RC38". I will run by Lowes and try to buy one. Is installation as easy as taking off the cover, popping it into said cover, replacing cover? 
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Dec 13, 2015 20:39
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OSU_Matthew posted:I was gonna suggest filling it in with a whole home surge arrestor but now I can't stop laughing I saw those at Lowes in a passing glance and wondered why a "breaker" had a coil of neutral wire hanging off it. That makes sense! I bought all 3 brands, the "Square D HOMFP Series 3 Part 07149" fit. Tested furnace breaker (Red 20A below the knockout) still throws on/off easily. 
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Dec 14, 2015 01:39
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bEatmstrJ posted:The part I don't really understand is the permanent vs non-permanent installation and using lamp cord instead of romex. To me it seems like its way safer to do it the way I'm doing it since I'm using proper boxes and romex, just inside of plywood instead of inside the wall. I guess I could just use a three prong extension cord plugged into the existing wall outlet and cut off the other end and wire it into my furniture with boxes/romex so it truly is removable. Would that be more code friendly? You came to ask experts for their opinion so as not to burn your house down. Accept their advise and move on from there, it doesn't materially change the cost of your project. One of the hardest things in life is knowing when to ask those with more experience than you how to do something. One of the smartest things in life is getting past it. You're building something really kickass. If you move, a home inspector worth their salt will notice the head board is a fixture not an appliance and make you, at your own cost, undo all of the work if you're taking it with you. You're trying not to create one of those "what was the PO thinking..." moments.
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Dec 31, 2015 21:12
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Hurray our coffee maker, dishwasher, and outlet in the dining area don't work, but the breaker is closed and other things on it do work. Pulled off the cover on the left-most one and voila, the start of the chain. Or what should be a chain. Contactless tester beeps, multimeter shows me 120VAC hot to neutral on the poles. There is way too much wire in this thing for a single gang outlet. Flip off the breaker and pull the outlet and the hot wire pops off all on its own, spread it out, close the breaker and confirm, then open it again. Looks like when they installed the their-fridge-now-my-dishwasher outlet in a remodel they just "tapped" this outlet. The white romex(?) goes from this outlet "up" (no strain relief or third ground wire), then enters the dishwasher outlet from the bottom (same thing, but I can see the ground wire). Unhooked the hot and tested with continuity to what I believe verify the two black wires I'm seeing match. There is some brown that does not scrape off my with my fingernail on the romex, is that evidence of arcing? Haven't tested the balance of the "original" non-romex wiring since I think I have a smoking gun. Hot wire verification, first noticed the brown stuff on the romex in this picture:  Note the two wires in the bottom of the neutral side:  Just a closeup of the "hot side" where you can see the other side of the romex coming in:  Straight on after fingernail cleaning the discoloration on the romex:  We already have a licensed electrician coming out tomorrow because I originally thought this was rodent damage. I assume this is Not Ok and the correct solution here is to turn this into a proper daisy chain. The dishwasher outlet has nothing on the "load" pins on its outlet. The correctest solution would be to have the electrician pull a dedicated 15A breaker for the dishwasher, plugging Kid Sinister's 120V Glory Hole in our box once and for all. For the latter, would you use a (A|G)FCI breaker?
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Jan 13, 2016 17:40
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ninmeister posted:Unless I'm seeing the colors wrong, arn't the screws on the top picture (what you labeled "neutral side") gold? That would be the hot side, and silver screws are the neutral side. That white on the hot side could be being used as a hot conductor, but was never labeled with black tape properly? Or the other solution is it's just a mess. The very first picture is right after I pulled it out and before any untwisting or unscrewing of the terminals. The wire chilling out in the air was "hot" according to the tester and fell off the second the screws came undone which were holding the receptacle in place. That is the only evidence I have of "hot/neutral". The last picture I have untwisted things to get a clearer look at the various wires, so the ground pin is "up." Here is a picture, this is the only terminal I've unscrewed, the balance of them I gave a gentle tightening to make sure they weren't comically loose. The empty silver terminal is where the hot wire and the black romex were screwed on. The other side is gold. 
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Jan 13, 2016 18:53
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Electrician came, pigtailed it and pushed it back in.
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Jan 14, 2016 18:06
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FISHMANPET posted:So I guess the question is are dimmable CFLs worth the cost or should I just spend $1 on a new switch? Unless you value dimming, I would replace the switch. TCP brand dimmable LEDs work great, but you also need to make sure the dimmer is compatible with them. We've had good luck with the Leviton CFL/LED dimmer replacing our normal incandescent dimmer.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:50
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kid sinister posted:No problem. To be honest, I'd almost be scared to see a garbage disposal that required a whole 20 amps. The only kitchen appliance I know of that requires a 20 amp receptacle is this one, star of the "Will It Blend?" Youtube series.  Jesus christ that thing uses more current than my lawn mower.
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Feb 2, 2016 02:31
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some texas redneck posted:I can't say I've ever seen a heat pump dryer in the US. I'm sure they exist, but they're Not A Thing where I live. Sounds like they may be cheaper to run than your typical US resistive heating element dryer, though they'd also probably take a lot longer. They are common in high rise condo/apartment structures where people have in-condo washer/dryers. For example, this horrible website doesn't say it's heat pump, but dollars to donuts it is: http://www.christophechoo.com/idx/mls-15953479-10580_wilshire_boulevard_unit_16ne_los_angeles_ca_90024
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Feb 28, 2016 17:46
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Nostalgic Cashew posted:The line from the pole to my house is a bit low, and can hit the gutter on a windy day. From the ground, I originally thought that the insulated support mount might be loose (it’s a bit tilted), but it seems that it’s very solid, and the white/bare cable just needs to be pulled a bit through the sliding clamp to lift the cable. Call your utility. They will likely send out a linesman for free. Tell them it's scraping the gutter.
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Mar 8, 2016 23:23
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kid sinister posted:Is there a sticker inside the can that says the maximum wattage allowed? This is what he's talking about, though I've been wrong before: 
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Apr 1, 2016 22:08
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slap me silly posted:Yeah, I was just messing with you. I uh, actually can't tell if you took me seriously or are just messing back, but if the former I apologize And yet you don't supply a link. For optical ground you need a fusion splicer. http://www.thefoa.org/tech/ref/termination/fusion.html
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Apr 16, 2016 18:48
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One Day Fish Sale posted:On the other hand, it would amount to like $40 worth of conduit for a separate run, so maybe it's not worth it, though I was considering trenching with a sub-soiler since I have a tractor to use it with. This leaves a narrow groove 18-24" deep, which would be handy for a single run but might be tricky for spacing two runs a consistent distance apart. Code aside if you have the ground open just run a second conduit for $40. Then you don't have to deal with HV and LV stuff sharing conduit at all. Slap a small POE switch out there and you have yourself wifi, a phone, and security camera all without needing to install any further 120V+ outlets. Make sure you properly terminate the STP. It's been a long time since I looked at it but as I recall you have to make sure your switch/patchpanel connects the grounding correctly from the STP jacket + STP RJ45 connector. A single STP bulkhead and a proper grounding strap on a used 1U metal patch panel is likely the easiest and cheapest method. Outdoor rated POE cameras are had for around $120 from like Hikvision, just make sure it is the US market version.
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Apr 27, 2016 18:22
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Aliquid posted:Quick and easy: I have an apartment balcony with two 2-pin fluorescent bulbs but no outlet. Is there an adapter to get me from 2-pin to an outlet, or do I have to go 2-pin -> socket -> outlet? The latter sounds and would look skeevy. The 2-Pin connector is potentially not 120V AC power, but the output of a ballast to drive a fluorescent tube. What bulbs go in it? Can you read the sticker for input/output power?
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May 4, 2016 18:09
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Aliquid posted:Ergh, it says "Use only compact fluorescent" on it, but then lists 120V 60HZ, .17 amps. So you have 20 watts of 120V power available to you. Unless you're hoping to charge a cell phone your plan isn't going to work unfortunately. You can probably use a LED bulb in there too if you're feeling rebellious.
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May 4, 2016 18:21
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Homer J. Fong posted:Thanks for the replies guys. Seller is being a pain in the rear end. They essentially want the house sold "as-is" but didn't put that in the initial listing or in the initial contract offer. Even if I have to pay for it I will insist that I want an electrician to inspect it before we proceed with purchase. Selling as-is sounds like a great way to reduce the price of sale by more than the estimated repairs. If that was literally the only thing wrong with it and it doesn't otherwise seem like a groverhaus maybe it's a bargain. Otherwise don't become emotionally invested in a death trap. Did your inspector actually test all the outlets, does their TV have working cable, crawl around in the attic, etc? Electrical panels aren't supposed to have finger holes.
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May 8, 2016 04:35
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Motronic posted:
And pull all of the permits they didn't get from the city. I would seriously wonder what they're trying to hide by being hostile to you over material questions of workmanship.
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May 8, 2016 22:33
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These are huge red flags. If the quality of work on those upgrades is similar to what was done on the panel you could be in for big problems.
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mike12345 posted:I need to buy a multimeter. There are a couple chinese ones on Ebay, selling for 2-3 bucks. Is that safe to buy? I don't want crap exploding in my hands or catching fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEoazQ1zuUM&t=346s You don't need a Fluke, but I would go above $2-3.
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Jun 15, 2016 16:37
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:You can buy multipack 1-foot-long extension cords. They come in handy surprisingly frequently. Not just for stuff like your vacuum cleaner; you can also use them to get full use out of the ports on a power strip, for example. http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10228&cs_id=1022802&p_id=5296&seq=1&format=2 A buck/ea more or less if you only need 16 AWG.
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Jun 20, 2016 02:49
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Internet comedy forum option: Have GFCI breakers? Touch the black wire to the bare wire, see what trips.
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Jul 2, 2016 16:34
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Uncle at Nintendo posted:edit: I know you are getting frustrated with me, but in all fairness you did ask me that already and I answered, so I might have been confused as to why you asked again You should physically label every individual wire. (Not "the black ones" or "the black one without the red one".) Just number them with a piece of masking tape. Take pictures. Then label your mspaint. People are talking past each other in here with only vague ideas of pronoun labeled wires. You're the only one who is going to get electrocuted to death while your house burns down around you if you get it wrong hoping you agree on which "black" wire you're talking about when there are a dozen of them.
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Jul 3, 2016 22:28
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Uncle at Nintendo posted:OK, I will take all the wires out and number them. It will take a little time though as taking apart that front box again and putting it back together takes a bit of time along with labeling everything; I only get like 30 actual minutes of free time this week per day with my messed up work schedule so please don't think I am being lazy. I have nothing constructive to add, other than dealing with remote troubleshooting at work has given me a keen eye for accidental pronouning of specific items, which is why I suggest the tape. Talking on the phone asking someone which port they are about to unplug and they say "this one" and point at it. We've sent them a tablet with a camera and gotomeeting installed. Now they can point all they want because we can see it. The labels guarantee neither you nor the other posters here can accidentally talk about a different wire, which will hopefully lead to net shorter troubleshooting time.
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Jul 4, 2016 04:52
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kid sinister posted:Bad news, you have another box somewhere.  
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Jul 10, 2016 03:43
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Guy Axlerod posted:I was bored at work so I was looking at how this product works: https://sense.com/ If you read the install guide they say to use a spare breaker (in the panel but unused) or install a new one as step 7, and refer you to their help on the website if you don't have room for one which directs you to call an electrician. https://help.sense.com/hc/en-us/articles/211992407-Not-enough-space-for-a-240v-breaker
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Aug 1, 2016 22:04
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:1) Yes, as you get to it. Not important in and of itself. Make sure your new dimmer has something about using it with CFL/LED lighting. No need to have to replace it twice.
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Aug 7, 2016 23:27
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insta posted:Its the other way around -- you'll lose voltage throughout the run. You'll lose less voltage along the 12awg cable, but since the 16awg is either before or after it, the total loss is the same. Toss a Kill-a-Watt on the furthest out outlet while running your device.
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Aug 15, 2016 04:36
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Slugworth posted:Oven, and unless I'm fairly well confused, the whole thing is gas - The outlet is only 120v. I thought maybe I had figured it out, and that what was causing the trip was her microwaving while using the exhaust fan built into the microwave, but no, apparently the exhaust fan was not running either time. The fridge is on the same circuit, for what it's worth, so it's definitely got a bit of a load on it. I just can't figure what a gas oven is doing to be that last straw. How many watts is the microwave? You could be using 100% of the circuit just with the microwave. If it's a 1400 watt microwave that is 80% of a 15 amp 120v circuit. Combine that with the compressor on your fridge and you're in for a bad time.
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Aug 20, 2016 15:38
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We've received 2 basically identical quotes to re-wire our house, including a new 200A main panel.  Kid Sinister's Glory Hole. We've left a message with a third electrician in the area. Both claim they're going to do it to NEC and handle permits with the city. Their licenses check out with the state website. The utility came and put a sticker on our wall for the new meter/panel location. I've asked them both for a sample switch, outlet, panel, and breaker model number so we can make sure they are what we want. (Wife wants Decora rocker switches, but regular outlets.) We're doing this as part of a larger project to repipe, rewire, insulate, and upgrade the bathroom exhaust fan to exhaust outside the house project.Both quotes came in at ~$8,800 for ~1250 sq ft 3bd/2ba and trenching to the garage w/ 50A subpanel. (We have 60A service today.  ) Neither includes patching & paint for lathe and plaster.Anything we should be asking them about or checking? Anything we should do "while we're in there" ? We have ceiling fans in 3 rooms (2 bd + living), and light fixtures in every room already. Is there a way to pay a reasonable amount extra to somehow keep dust under control? We both have asthma, and plaster dust is low on my list of things to have coating the whole house.
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Aug 24, 2016 04:25
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kid sinister posted:There sure is: get a hotel room or stay at a friend's place. Another option would be to replace your furnace air filter with a really good one before the work happens, then consider it sacrificial. Once all the dust has settled, start cleaning. Staying with the inlaws who live 3 miles away. Already have spare ultra high filtration filters, a Dyson vacuum with a HEPA rated filter, and our ductwork is getting replaced with the insulation job. Everything else cover with plastic and pray? I'm more worried about residual dust than "in progress" dust. Should we have one of those vacuum's in a truck come by and suck every surface off and outside? 75% of our wiring is not modern romex (which I realize is the brand, NM?) It's crumbling rubber and fabric coated wire from 1947. What is romex was done by someones uncle jimmy who overfilled boxes, left them uncovered, put dimmers on the fans, and didn't use pigtails where necessary. Also most rooms have 2 outlets at most, we have a GFCI (singular) on a dogleg as it doesn't interrupt anything but itself. Garage is effectively 1 regular car or 2 ultra compacts if you use any of it for storage. The driveway is sort of an odd angle to get two cars in, I tried. A welder or car charger is very likely. (Though the welder would be for my wife and dad. He has a stable of them.) There is an extra room in the back as well. If you squint you can see exposed romex ~4' off the ground on the left. This runs into a semi-concealed (but accessible I believe, it's reachable to attach a cover with a screwdriver) jbox that doesn't have a cover and may not have anything securing the wire but I haven't look in a while. The garage is currently only attached to the house by conduit and cement. All of this is getting fixed and a city inspector will see it.  (Picture was from the day I got the keys to the house a year ago. There is now more... stuff. Note all that paint with legible paint codes!) I take it go up to 100A / higher gauge wire? Run length main to sub is ~50' but I haven't measured it. Roughly double that to reach the furthest corner or the room behind the garage from the subpanel via the walls. Oh and our meter is handily 7' off the ground. The handy pamphlet SCE gave us and meter spot sticker both say that 4'0" to 6'3" to center is code. To my knowledge they are, but that's why I'm asking for sample models. I will double check. As I've understood it from this thread AFCI breakers, GFCI outlets in wet areas/garage. I want exactly 0 punch list items from our inspector when this is done.
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Aug 24, 2016 06:26
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Great, thanks for the tips. Any tips on sub-panel sizing in the garage, or should I just ask the electrician? (And yes, Romex® brand NM wire.)
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Aug 24, 2016 23:34
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