Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

este posted:

The big question is, how do I pull out the old wire and run new wire without having to cut a trench in my all of my walls / ceilings to access it? My guess is, I can't just *pull* out the old wire, and similarly, the new wire probably can't just be fished in through the walls, it needs to be fastened. Am I correct? This seems like the biggest barrier for me in this project, since replastering (yup, lathe and all) and repainting every room in the house sounds pretty beastly, not to mention far more expensive.

In new construction, no. For retrofit work, it's perfectly acceptable to fish wire through walls in whatever way you can. Do you have an attic or crawlspace where you can access the top/bottom of the wall? That's likely the easiest way to do it. Otherwise, there are drilling techniques and long flexible drillbits, but it's tough work.

You can abandon the K&T in the wall once it's disconnected.

blindjoe posted:

I got 6 "reno" type halogens from home depot that just mount to the drywall. I have a spool of 14/2 to wire them with, and will get some wire clamps. My plan is to wire into the existing light box (which has 3 halogens on a dimmer), then daisy chain everything around the kitchen. Any gotchas I need to worry about, besides falling through the ceiling?

Make sure it's a 15A circuit and not a 20A circuit! Also, make sure the dimmer is rated for the # of lights you're going to put on it. They all have wattage ratings, and you don't want to exceed it. (You can replace it if necessary.)

grover fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Mar 5, 2009

# ¿ Mar 5, 2009 03:11

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 05:58

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

optikalus posted:

The problem is that it only works reliably when the top-left switch is in the down position. If the lights are off with that switch in the up position, the other switches won't turn on the lights consistently. If you press hard on the four-way switch, they'll flicker on briefly.

I'd start by replacing this switch with one that isn't broken. When the switch is flipped, it should either turn on or off, but should never flicker.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2009 01:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

optikalus posted:

That's what I thought, but it works normally as long as the top-left switch is in the down position.

Its like a $25 switch, so hopefully it is just a wiring logic problem.

A 4-way switch? More like $2.50. No "wiring logic" problem is going to cause the lights to flicker.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2009 02:53

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

chryst posted:

I'm about to do a complete kitchen renovation, and need to run 3 additional circuits. I'd also like to give the garage it's own dedicated circuit, as well as putting an outlet outside in the sunroom. Garage, kitchen, and sunroom are all adjacent to each other, and on the opposite side of the house from the breakers.

Instead of running 4-5 wires across the entire attic, would it be smarter and/or easier to run one big cable to a new sub-panel in the garage, and then work the new lines from there? Is running a big cable that far (probably 80-90 feet of wire) safe?

I'm pretty confident I can do this all myself. The only thing I'll probably need an electrician for is a heavy-up at the main panel. We've only got 100A service, and I'd like to upgrade that to 250A. I know the panel is rated for 250A, but I was told by my (completely incompetent) home inspector that my meter and service cables weren't. I'm betting that simply upgrading the main breaker is a bad idea.

How much of all this work am I likely to need a permit/inspection for?

Simply upgrading the main breaker without doing anything else is a serious fire hazard because the wiring in your walls isn't rated for that current. And, oh by the way, your insurance company won't cover it if the fire inspection uncovers that you did the illegal mods that caused the fire.

You are going to need permits and inspection for ALL of it. Your "service" is a technical term describing the amount of power that's entering your home. It unrelated to how big the panel is, and is entirely dependent on the size of the meter and how much power the power company is providing you. Generally, this is reflected in the size of your main breaker, but not always. You'd have to call the power company to find out what your service actually is. If it is only 100A and you need more (do you REALLY need more, or is 100A OK? If you don't have electric heat, 100A may be OK.), they will have to upgrade it. This may be free to you, but you'll have to pay to upgrade the feeder cabling from the meter to your panel, and to replace the main breaker. If it is rated at 250A (and it's not at all unlikely), it will say so on the panel. Otherwise, you'd have to replace the whole panel. There should be information on this on the sticker in your panel saying what it's rated for and what breaker(s) you'd need to order. You'd REALLY be better off letting a professional electrician do this part, even if you do the rest yourself.

As to the subpanel, there's nothing wrong with that, and it's very common. A small 60A 240V panel should be plenty for all this, and you can get 60A NM-B so you don't have to mess with conduit. Of course, there's nothing wrong with pulling all the circuits back to your main panel if you have room for the breakers; this way, you don't have to mess with adding a new panel. If you plan on doing this work, make sure you get a book that tells you how to do it properly, or else you're going to find yourself ripping half of it out and doing it over when it fails inspection. Protip: don't mess with #14 (15A) at all, pull all the new circuits in with #12 (20A) and use 20A breakers.

Edit: or what you COULD do, is put in the new panel yourself, and wire up everything in your kitchen, and hire an electrician to review your work and do all the work in your existing panel. If you work it out in advance, you may even be able to hit him/her up for advice along the way

grover fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 7, 2009

# ¿ Mar 7, 2009 20:18

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Ahz posted:

I have a basement I want to finish and the builder left it with steel studs surrounding the foundation walls, insulated and sealed off with vapour barrier. Now I want to run electrical before I put drywall up. It's not a large basement, only 26'x26' square, but I figure I have three options ahead of me, which do you think would be easiest? FYI, I already have about 200' of romex 14/2 wire that I have leftover from finishing the garage. FYI, there's no code here requiring conduit of any fashion inside the home.

I can use my existing 14/2 romex and run it through my ceiling and for every recepticle I can run it down the stud and then back up into the ceiling to get to the next recepticle or switch. Are there any code issues with this? I believe this would mean the wire is just floating / falling down the side of the steel stud and getting clamped off at the recepticle box. I wouldn't actually be stapling the wire to the stud in any way since I don't want to rip down the vapour barrier if I go this route.

I can buy shielded 14/2 cable and somehow route it horizontally through my steel studs rather than wasting wire by travelling down 7ft and back up again for every run. Though now I would have to buy shielded cable and cut my vapour barrier at various areas to fish it through all my studs.

I can rip down the vapour barrier and install guards to prevent any cutting hazard in all the stud holes so that I can use regular romex horizontally run through the studs. But then I would want to try reusing vapour barrier, or would I have to buy new stuff?

Or maybe I rip down all the lovely steel studs and reframe with timber and start fresh, reusing my batt insulation?

Opinions?

#14 is only rated for 15A. You cannot put a 20A breaker on any circuit run with #14 wire.

You don't have to buy shielded cable, you can get grommets to go in the metal studs, they're very cheap. If the walls are accessible, you are required to fasten the cable without 6" or 12" of every box (depending on whether there's a clamp on the box or not) and every so often in between. If the cables are fished behind a finished wall, well, first of, it's a REAL pain in the rear end, but you're not required to secure them, they can be loose.

Are you just talking about plastic vapor barrier? Don't even worry about that, just tear if down and replace it, it will save you a TON of labor and a TON of cable costs. 25-50 cents a foot adds up when you're running an extra 10' for every run! You can reuse the vapor barrier if it's not torn, or patch it with tape if it is. (FYI, you have to use special tape.)

# ¿ Mar 7, 2009 20:28

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

MizterD99 posted:

We've been in our house a little over a year now and there are a few electrical items I'd like to take care of and I'd appreciate any advice.

There are a few switches around the house that I have no idea what they control. Additionally, there are a couple outside outlets that don't work. (Who knows, maybe they're related?)

What's the best way to map out what does what? I have a cheap-o light up tester and I've seen those circuit tracer dealies; are those the way to go? Would it be worth my while to just hire someone? Would any of this information be on file somewhere? (The house was build in 1956 and a large addition was added on 2002.)

Good luck, heh. No, there's not likely to be any records whatsoever beyond what's labeled on your electrical panel. There are tools you can rent/buy, cable tracers, but they're expensive and still rather difficult to use effectively. You can do a lot with a simple voltmeter, though. Don't mess with the light-up tester; definitely buy a real multimeter if you don't have one, it's well worth the $15-20.

Chances are good that there is a tripped or defective GFCI for the outside breakers. I'd look for that first. I'd also open up all the receptacles and lights that aren't working, and see if there is power going to them- bad connections in an outlet box are very common, too, but difficult to troubleshoot. The light switches may be controlling outlets, not lights.

# ¿ Mar 7, 2009 20:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Daddyo posted:

What's the easiest way to add another switch to a ceiling fan? I've got attic access to the entire setup, and I know the fan has separate power leads for fan/light control. When I hung the fan I just followed the instructions for one power input and wired it all together, but I'm thinking I'd rather run a new connection to the switch.

First, kill the breaker and verify the power is secured; you're going to be working with a hot lead and NEED to do this.

Open up your light switch box. Verify that there is a spare light switch, and that there are there black and red wires coming from the fan coming into the box. unscrew the switch that's currently connected, and pull it a few inches out of the box so you can work on it.. Disconnect the incoming "hot" wire, and pigtail it using a wiring nut (yellow or red are OK) and two 6" pieces of wire. Bend a loop in these two pigtails using a needle nose pliers, and screw it down. (Loop it clockwise so that it pulls in closer when you tighten the screw. Now connect the red wire to the spare light switch. Bend the wires in a Z so they'll push back easy, and reinstall the switches and covers.

Take down your fan. There will be two leads in your fan, one for the light and one for the fan. They're normally labeled which is which. Attach one to the red and one to the black. You're done!

# ¿ Mar 8, 2009 14:29

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

chryst posted:

Any recommendations for getting the parts, or is Home Depot the place to go?

Lowes/Home Depot is fine for this stuff. You might have to go to a specialty electrical supplier for the #6-3 NM (for a 60A panel; larger for a larger panel), but everything else is readily available in the big box. They may even have this at HD (the ones near me have a motorized rack with all sorts of cable), but you'll have to ask. It's really not a big deal to hit up an electrical supply house for bits of cable. BTW, do yourself a favor, and wire up the new panel as 240V.

grover fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Mar 8, 2009

# ¿ Mar 8, 2009 16:48

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

Now you could use a GFCI to protect your 3-prong devices. However, they're expensive and they're notoriously overly sensitive, i.e. they would trip under normal use. You would also need to put the "not a grounding outlet" sticker on the outlets to be up to code.

Nah, they're not overly sensitive at all, and not all that expensive, either! Unless by "overly sensitive" you mean "it trips whenever I get even a tiny shock."

GFCI is the ONLY way to safely and legally put a 3-prong receptacle on an ungrounded circuit. One GFCI can protect an entire string of receptacles, too, which will let you replace them all with 3-prong receptacles (you have to put a GFCI/Ungrounded sticker on all of them)

This will still not provide grounding, but what it will provide is shock protection for you. The GFCI is designed to trip if a ground fault exceeds 6ma, which will protect people from fatal shocks.

If you want surge protection, the best way is to install a whole-house surge supressor on your panel. It won't cost much more than a couple high-end power strips and will do a WAY better job at supressing the surges than a power strip would. Also, power strips that provide line-neutral surge suppression will still work just fine.

grover fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Mar 10, 2009

# ¿ Mar 10, 2009 11:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

You only need 3 wires. The white wire (neutral) is shared; you don't need to mess with it at all, just leave it entirely alone. You only need to separate the red and black wires. If you already have these 3 wires, you don't need to pull anything else.

If your box only has room for one light switch, you can get one that actually has 2 switches built into it over/under style

# ¿ Mar 11, 2009 02:09

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

tomapot posted:

I rewired a ton of stuff in my house last year since I was remodeling my basement and had all the walls and celing open. It is not too hard, got myself one of the electical books from Home Depot to learn the basics. If I ever get caught up I'll post some pics and stuff.

My father-in-law used to work for Con Edison, the electrical utility of NYC, until he retired. When my wife and I bought our house we replaced some old 2 prong outlets with 3 prong. I walked into the room and he was replacing the outlets and I asked if he wanted me to turn off the circuit breaker. He said "No, this would knock you back but to me it feels like a tickle." Bad rear end.

dumbass is more like it. 120V can still kill you. Sure, you might get tickled a number of times with no harm, and it's easy to get compacent, but it only takes one bad jolt to end your life.

For example, this guy was killed by 120V. A faulty extension cord and missing ground prong plug (just like the situation you'd get by illegally using a 2-prong adapter for a 3-prong plug) energized the drill he was holding and he received a fatal shock.

grover fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 12, 2009

# ¿ Mar 12, 2009 22:52

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Ask me about power engineering, too!

kid sinister posted:

They must've gotten better at the false positive trips than I remember. Still, I call 10x the cost of a regular outlet "expensive".

Could you give a link or example of a line-neutral surge suppressor? I've never seen one before.

I don't really consider a $12 GFCI "expensive," regardless of how many 39 cent receptacles you could have bought for the same money. Especially since you only need 1 to protect several rooms worth of receptacles.

Nearly all commercial surge suppressors go L-L, L-G and L-N on all lines to protect against surge no matter what line is seeing the surge. Many even go N-G just to protect high-impedance neutral-ground bonds. If you're really worried, you can pop open your surge suppressor and rewire the MOV. Honestly, the best thing you can do for your house is to put a TVSS on your main panel, as it will protect everything!

grover fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 14, 2009

# ¿ Mar 14, 2009 15:00

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

IfIWereARichMan posted:

Can someone recommend a book on wiring that is somewhere between an "Idiots Guide to..." and something for pros? This caught my eye on Amazon but I am not equipped to evaluate it.

The amazon preview unfortunately doesn't show anything to do with actual wiring. The intro was OK, but looked like it was intended for complete idiots. It's at least up-to-date.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2009 17:47

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Temporary Overload posted:

Also, recently our engineering/manufacturing facility sent us a bunch of equipment designed for 440v 3phase, with big signs posted all over it saying "DO NOT EXCEED 440 VOLTS." They're located in texas, we're located in louisiana, and the equipment will be used on offshore rigs in the gulf. Why did they use european motors? Where are we supposed to find 440v hookups?

440V is a common shipboard voltage. Don't ask me WHY it was chosen, but it's unfortunately ubiquitious in some areas of the industry, which makes it really annoying to have to have a bazillion transformers everywhere to support it when the equipment is on land.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2009 21:24

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

mrglynis posted:

I've got an 80yr old Mill House with some Knob and Tube wiring in the attic. Thats the only place its still active. The K&T is used only to power the ceiling fixtures. Here's the thing. The wiring has been illegally spliced into. The K&T doesn't run from the box. There is a "newer" wire type coming from the box into the attic. It then is spliced into the K&T. I put "newer" in quotes because its not romex new. Its rather old in itself, just newer than K&T. I'm not sure exactly what kind of wiring it is. The writing on some of it says: 14-2 Anaconda Dutrex 600V. And theres only 2 wires. Hot and neutral, no ground.

Also at each of the ceiling boxes the K&T is spliced into about 6-8" from the box and that newer wiring is what is actually running into the boxes. Its also whats running down to the switches as well.

Ok, so heres what I want to do. I want all that K&T gone. I have 50 bags of blow-in insulation taking up my whole garage, that I cant install while the K&T is active. Now, what I was hoping to do was to just splice in romex to the "newer" wiring at the point it connects to the K&T and then redo everything. The only snag with that, is that theres no ground wire. I'm therefor assuming that the only reasonable option is to run all new romex all the way from the box, and just replace the whole shebang?

I hope all this makes sense. I took pictures, but I'm having trouble getting them on my computer. I'll update the post if i get them on here.

One last question. Is it ok to have more that 1 hot wire running into 1 breaker. I ask because 3 different breakers at my box have 2 hot wires running to them. I know that regarding outlets and such you can only have 1 wire per screw. I was wondering if the same rule applies at the box too. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

edit:got the pictures here they are:
http://www.imagebam.com/image/a4a70529349599
The main box, highlighted area is where the multiple hot wires are connected under one breaker.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/0100e129349602
This shows the main splice where it connects to the K&T. Red is the main line coming into the attic from the box. The yellow is running off to power the bathroom and 3rd bedroom addition.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/5b2a8629349601
This shows the wiring at one of the ceiling boxes. Yellow is K&T. Blue is the 14-2 Anaconda Dutrex 600V mentioned above. Red is running down to the switch.

Hopefully these pics will make things a little clearer. If you need more pics or info, just ask. Thanks.

Didn't see your photo edit. Sorry to say, but everything you've posted here is wrong. It's not legal to land 2 wires under 1 breaker terminal unless it's UL listed for it (and I doubt it is). Flying splices are illegal, regardless of the setting. Also, grandfathering rules only apply to upstream things. Like, you can add romex to extend a K&T run, but if you replace an obsolete fuse box with a breaker panel, the entire house was required to have been upgraded. So, these are all violations.

The best thing you can do is replace the main panel with a larger one, and bring the whole house up to modern code. It's probably prohibitively expensive, though. Easy ways to fix the biggest safety issues for cheap: pigtail the double-wires under the breakers with wire nuts, and install connection boxes in your attic. It won't make your house completely NEC-legal, but may postpone a visit from your local fire department.

grover fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Mar 26, 2009

# ¿ Mar 15, 2009 21:31

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

hobbesmaster posted:

Is this because if the insulation fails you have more problems than with a regular transformer? Or is it something else?

Yep, this.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2009 12:45

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

TheKub posted:

My mother's house has aluminum wiring. She wants me to come over and replace some outlets with GCFI outlets. Is there anything special I need to do or can I just connect the aluminum wiring directly to the new outlets.

Make sure the terminals on the GFCI are rated for Al and Cu (most are, but check the box to make sure.) If they're not, you'll need to get fittings that are, and put on a short copper pigtail. Be careful not to break the Al, it cracks easier than Cu does.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2009 16:59

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

#6-32

I bought a couple packs in varying lengths (1" and 1.25" mostly) after my attempts at perfectly mounting boxes was thwarted by lazy drywallers and an excessively thick layer of plaster. I saved all the "short" screws too, which have come in handy as well, like for hanging light fixtures to boxes that don't come with screws.

You can buy special replacement screws in colors to match your covers; I'm not sure what size off-hand.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2009 18:00

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

Isn't there all kinds of code for pigtailing copper to aluminum, or more specifically you need special connectors to connect them and tools to put them on?

Yes, you need to use a connector with fittings that are specifically listed for this. For example, I used a couple Al/Cu-rated split bolts to extend the Al line for my stove with Cu cable to the new location.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2009 22:13

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

mrglynis posted:

Thanks for the reply. I really do appreciate it. I pretty much anticipated everything you said. I had an electrician come out to talk to me today. Where do I begin?

I want to comment on a few of your comments. You will want to get another electrician to come out and take a look, a number of things this guy said aren't quite accurate:

The power coming from the street doesnt come down into a box.
How does it come down? There are approved methods for transitioning from the aerial wire to SE that don't need a box. (Mine is just spliced to SE in a little hood below the peak of the roof.) Usually, the power company owns the line from the street to the meter, if I'm not mistaken.

The ground is essentially non-existent.
This is a BIG problems and needs fixed!

The wiring is exposed coming out of the meter and into the crawlspace(ie:no conduit).
What kind of wire is it? Some times of wire (SE, for example) is perfectly fine like this.

Aside from the aformentioned problems in the box, The main neutral wire is exposed. There's no sheathing on it.
This needs to be fixed, but it;ts not quite as dangerous as it seems, as the neutral wire is grounded in your panel and grounded at the pole. Return current is flowing through the neutral, the ground wire, and the dirt beneath your feet. Theres' really not much difference electrically between any of these wires. The poco rarely sheathes the neutral aerial wire.

Theres no grounding bar in the box. Neutral and grounds are together on the neutral bus bar.
This is fine for the main panel. The neutral must be bonded to ground at one point, and it's the ground bar. (Subpanels must have separate ground and neutral bars.)

The box itself is more than 5 feet away from the meter. Meaning theres no shutoff between the meter and the box in the house.
This isn't a problem; it's normal design. The main breaker in your panel is the service disconnect. The meter serves as the disconnect if you need to service the service conductors. I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the code never mentions 5' or sets any distance- they just don't want you putting the panel on the opposite side of the house and running unfused service wire where it can get damaged.

The box is mounted on the wall as opposed to recessed into it.
Perfectly acceptable. Simple an aesthetic choice.

There is an 8 gauge wire for the range run up through the floor and into the bottom of the box. Its run in some plastic conduit that isnt secured to anything.
The conduit should be securely fastened, but this doesn't seem like it's necessarily a violation aside from that. (We'd have to know more)

The main supply is aluminum wiring.
Not a problem IF it's done right, using UL fittings approved for use with Aluminum.

They tied copper wires under the main to run to a sub-box for the dryer.
Does the main breaker kill power to the dryer, too, or did they tap off of the feeder side of the bus? This *may* be OK, but there are some specific rules for this that might not have been followed.

The G.F.C.I. outlet in the bathroom is not grounded and will not trip during an over current. The outlet must be grounded.
It will trip on a ground fault regardless of whether it's grounded or not, the ground wire is not required for it to function. I concur that it must legally be grounded, but it will still trip and save your life if there's a ground fault.

Good luck on getting some better bids! How much of this are you up to try to fix yourself? If you get the power company to come and pull the meter base, it will remove power to your house and let you safely work on the system. (The electrician would have to do this, too.)

grover fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Mar 26, 2009

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 01:03

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Menekali posted:

Great thread! I've learned a bit so far and, I've always had issues trying to understand anything remotely electrical.

I do however, have a question. I loaned my truck to a friend recently (1994 Ford Bronco XLT). Comes back with a flat 37" wheel (YAY!) but the real issue, is none of the dome, or door lights would turn off. Essentially thrashing my battery. Apparently he fooled around, and tried to tune some poo poo up on the truck (wasn't needed anyway, it JUST had it's tune up).

Essentially, where the gently caress do I start? I have no idea where or how to go about tracking down what might be causing the lights in the cabin to stay on even after the doors are closed. I'm clueless here!

Try the dimmer switch on the dash first; he might have bumped it to full on. Look for switches on the dome light, too, there might be switches you don't even know about

One of the microswitches that sense the doors are open might have failed, too; those are difficult to troubleshoot for, though. In the meantime, you can pull the fuse or pull the bulbs so you don't drain your battery.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 21:48

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

mrglynis posted:

edit: screw sleep. heres some of the inside pics:

http://www.imagebam.com/image/80a1f230824047
This is a shot of the un-sheathed neutral
The unsheathed neutral looks fine. If it makes you feel better, it's absolutely identical in my panel.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/72ee8d30824048
A shot of the main breaker with the dryer wires running to it.
This is wrong! There's a way to do a bus tap, but this is NOT that way! What SHOULD have been done is a new subpanel should have been installed where the dryer box is, a couple existing breakers moved from your panel to the new box, and a new breaker installed in your panel to feed the new subpanel. (This subpanel would need separate neutral and ground bars, btw.)

http://www.imagebam.com/image/d7d18730824051
The sub-box for the dryer
Looks OK, aside from the way the feeder is tapped. No telling what's inside, though...

http://www.imagebam.com/image/43349230824053
The neutral bus bar
This looks fine.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/aa91c030824054
The lazy plastic conduit running the 8ga wire.
That's actually good stuff- nothing wrong with liquidtight conduit, it just needs some support straps. You can pick 'em up at Home Depot.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/929c0430876007
A full shot of the service where it hits the house
Looks typical. Not ideal, but not terribly dangerous. Code requires conduit where it's liable to be damaged; I'd strongly recommend coming out the bottom of your meter pan with conduit to protect against weed whackers and suck. This is a subjective code, though.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/c79c3b30876009
The exposed cable
Is that just paint flaking off, or is the cable degraded? The latter is most certainly a problem.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/6497bd30876010
The "grounding" system
I really can't see what's going on here. Is there a thick copper cable inside the sheathing, and is is solid and connected solidly to your ground rod? How badly is it corroded? What's that little wire wrapped around it, is that grounding the cable/phone stuff?

http://www.imagebam.com/image/6d5aee30876011
Showing where the service hits the house
Looks typical.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/7898e130876014
The SE cable running through the crawlspace.
Looks a little longer than normal, but it doesn't matter that it's "exposed", the installation looks fine.

If you do have your electrical system upgraded, one thing you can do that might save some labor is to instead of putting a new panel outside your house, put a service disconnect there- basically just a main breaker in a box. Then it doesn't matter where your actual electrical panel is located, the 5' distance is N/A, etc. (This will make replacing your panel a lot cheaper if you don't have to splice or replace as much of the inside cabling.) When you have it done, I'd recommend having a generator manual transfer switch (MTS) installed, too; it'll be cheap compared to everything else, and they sure make life a lot more pleasant! (The MTS lets you swap your house from utility power to generator power during a big outage. They're legally required to prevent accidentally backfeeding the high-voltage lines through the utility company's transformers and giving line workers repairing the power lines a 7000V surprise.)

If you're feeling up to it, you can even have the electrician stop at the new service disconnect, and you can safely wire the rest up yourself. Just make sure to read up like chryst did, pull all the necessary permits, etc.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 22:11

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

chryst posted:

- Is there a way to easily find the first receptacle on the branch without manually disconnecting it and seeing if the rest of the load drops?

Your plan looks good, and you're asking all the right questions

I think you'll be successful! First answer: unfortunately, no. Typically, it will be the one closest to the panel or in another logical path, but if you can't see any of the cabling to get an idea, it's just trial and error.

quote:

* The wiring in the attic is just run where it needs to go. It's not secured to anything. I'm assuming I need to staple it to the beams, and drill through the rafters as specified in my book, right?
- I'll need longer wires to run it in new places, and all the splices have to be in junction boxes, right?

Yep, staple the cable up and put splices in boxes.

quote:

- One other thing with the existing wiring: The panel's sticker says it's 125A rated, but the installed main breaker is 100A. Is it possible to replace it with a 125A breaker to get a mini-upgrade without needing a whole new panel?

Yes, but it's tricky. There's no breaker to turn off to safely replace a main breaker- you have to have the power company shut off power to your house to make the change. The panel will list the acceptable breaker model #s- google those to find a supplier. I had to order a used breaker off ebay for mine. Be mindful of the KAIC rating printed on the breaker, too. Unless you want to do a new fault current study, make sure the new breaker is the same rating or higher.

quote:

-I'm having trouble determining what size wire to use. It seems like a #6 is enough for 60A, but it runs through the attic, which gets really hot in the summer (120F+, I'd guess). Should I use a bigger cable due to the heat? What size? Do I need 4 conductors for 240v? (want to make sure I buy the right stuff the first time)

Yes, derating does apply, but you can use 90C tables for derating so #6 may still be OK. Have you done voltage drop calcs? There's nothing wrong with oversizing. Especially if you're going to have power tools with high current draw on startup.

quote:

- I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what panel to buy. Most 60A rated panels seem to be meant for air conditioning disconnects. Is it OK to buy a 100A panel, and put a 60A breaker into it?

It's a subpanel, so the main breaker is really just a disconnect switch. And not even required; the actual overcurrent protection is from the breaker in your other panel that feeds it. Main lug only (MLO) is fine! Or just leave the 125A or whatever breaker in that it comes with, that's OK, too.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 22:20

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Menekali posted:

Thanks a lot man, I'll be sure to check all of that tonight

Or you could ask your buddy what he broke, and maybe save yourself some troubleshooting time

# ¿ Mar 26, 2009 22:23

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

chryst posted:

If I'm not mistaken, you can leave the 2-wire, as long as all 3-prong outlets are GFCI protected. You also won't be able to properly hard-wire any motors without a ground somewhere. (Dishwasher, garbage disposal, etc)

This is true in your case where you're just replacing receptacles, but it's a little bit different when you replace a panel; you need to bring everything downstream up to code when you do.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2009 23:59

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

mrglynis posted:

That was something that was discussed. Having a box outside that would serve as a cut off and allow for easier access to power out in the yard and such. I'm not sure I understand what you mean here:

"This will make replacing your panel a lot cheaper if you don't have to splice or replace as much of the inside cabling."

Why would you have less splicing and replacing to do? I'm might be looking at it from the wrong perspective. As it stands, most if not virtually all of the wiring in the house is 2-wire. So in order to bring everything up to snuff, it all needs to be replaced with 3 wire, so that everything; switches, outlets, everthing will be nice and grounded.

If you need to replace it all, it's less of an issue. You just need to plan a spot where you can access the most places in your house to pull the wiring. If you mount your panel outside, you may have trouble bringing all the romex into it.

The panel outside won't really make it easier to power things in the yard, you still would have to run conduit and install receptacles and all. You basically trade off not having to punch a hole in your house to put an outside receptacle with having to punch tons of holes in your house to run all the inside stuff.

The MTS will not be the least bit useful if you don't have a generator. If you think you might want to ever have one in the future, though, you'll be glad you put it in!

grover fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Mar 28, 2009

# ¿ Mar 28, 2009 00:03

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Vinlaen posted:

Are there any electricians here (espicially from PA)? I have a very quick question...

I live in Pennsylvania and have 100 amp service with a 20 circuit box.

The box is completely filled with breakers and a couple of breakers are doubled or even tripled up. (eg. two bedrooms connected to one circuit, etc)

However, I have gas heat for the entire house except for one recently finished room in the basement (which uses electric baseboard heat).

I've had electricians come to the house but I'm getting two different stories:

1) Some say they can install 30 circuit box and I can keep my 100 amp service which is completely big for me.

2) Others say you must upgrade to 200 amp service if I want a bigger box.

Does anybody know the truth behind either of these?

It's not the # of circuits in the panel, but what's served. There's a specific code calculation for the service size that must be done. If you're exceeding that now, you're OK because you're grandfathered in. But if your panel is upgraded, the electrician is required by law to upgrade it. You can try to work it out yourself here and see if it's the case.

Click here for the full 1034x636 image.

grover fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Apr 1, 2009

# ¿ Apr 1, 2009 23:02

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

You don't even necessarily even need something that sophisticated, there just has to be a positive interlock that inhibits you from running the generator while the main breaker is open. This can be as simple as a piece of cut sheet metal that slides up and down on your panel that won't let you close the generator breaker until the main breaker is open. You can buy kits, or make one yourself. (Others reading this thread might have to move breakers around if trying to retrofit this to an existing panel, but it's an overall pretty simple mod.)

http://www.interlockkit.com/ (Looks like most of his kits are $150)

grover fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Apr 2, 2009

# ¿ Apr 2, 2009 16:40

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

McBeth posted:

I was trying to replace the thermostat for my downstairs floor heaters but I screwed up the wires and blew it out tripping the main circuit breaker. Everything else has power again but no heat downstairs anymore and I know I fried it. Is this something I can fix myself or should I suck it up and hire an electrician?

Sounds like you accidentally shorted hot-to-ground. This probably didn't fry anything, just scare the piss out of you. If anything did burn up, it's probably at a splice in a connection box and you can find it. Or maybe the thermostat, depending on what exactly you did. Your heater is most likely just fine.

Can you post more information on your thermostat and the wiring, maybe a photo of the open box? What size breaker is feeding it? Did you try wiring it correctly, or just give up after this happened?

Edit: funny story. When I was a kid, the only heat we had in the house was a single-register gas furnace in the center of the house. No distribution beyond opening bedroom doors. My dad and one of his buddies tried to install a ventilation fan into my bedroom so I'd get heat, wired through a thermostat probably similar to the one you're using. Try as they might, they could not figure the damned thing out. They worked for days on it until they finally gave up, capped off the wires, and abandoned it all in place. Fastforward 15 years, I know what I'm doing, I'm back up home visiting one trip... and got to wondering just how badly they'd screwed up the fan. 5 minutes later, I had it working. Oh man, I was giving my dad poo poo for a looong time after that. I even called up my dad's buddy to make fun of him, too

grover fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 3, 2009

# ¿ Apr 3, 2009 01:05

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Veen posted:

Ok, I just bought a house and about the only complaint I have with it is that roughly 50% of the light switches appear to do literally nothing. I'm not sure why this is, but it's pretty strange.

For example, my bedroom has one single lightswitch that you would think would turn on the light. Does it? Nope. It appears to do nothing. Whether it's on or off, the fan/light in the middle of the room is actuated with the regular pull chains.

The switches very well may switch certain receptacles, with the intention that you will put a floor or desk lamp there. You'll have to check top and bottom of every outlet in the room, as they can be often wired to different circuits. Ceiling fans are often left "always on" so that you can run the fan at night; better installations will have two circuits, but retrofits sometimes go the easy route.

Another thing to try: take the cover off the light switch and see if they've been bypassed. They might even be broken.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2009 13:32

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Did you just nut black wires to the white wires? That might be your problem right there.

Draw yourself a diagram of the cables coming into the box (and their colors), including which direction they leave the box, which might help indicate where they're going. Also open up your heater and do the same thing there. Then sit down and work out which wire is doing what. The thermostat is simply an on/off switch, like a light switch- you want it to break the circuit (usually on the "hot" side) when the heat is off. Normally, you'll nut all the white wires together and leave them as a separate path, and only switch the red and black ones. It looks like there's too many wires in this box for it to be a simple switch loop. There's probably a parallel path so the heat can either come on automatically with the thermostat or manually at the heater.

It's hard to tell without being there, but I'd expect it to look something like this:

NEUTRAL----(WHITE WIRE)--[--{WIRENUT}----(WHITE WIRE)---------------]---HEATER

BREAKER----(BLACK WIRE)--[--{WIRENUT}----{THERMOSTAT}----(RED WIRE)-]---HEATER AUTO
\-----------------(BLACK WIRE)-]---HEATER MANUAL

VERIFY ALL THIS BEFORE TRYING IT!

grover fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Apr 3, 2009

# ¿ Apr 3, 2009 17:21

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Veen posted:

The bedroom switch is hooked up to my UPS/Computer, which means someone walking in and reflexively turning on the light gets about 10 seconds to realize what they did and restart the flow of power to the UPS. That one I'd much rather just have control the light portion of the fan like a normal switch. Keeping the fan itself always on and controlling it by drawstring is preferred, but I'd like that switch to control the light itself and not an outlet.

You're probably SOL on the ceiling fan without fishing new cable, but you can at least disable the switched receptacle. First, turn off the breaker. Then pop the light switch out, remove the wires from it, straighten them, and join them under a wire-nut. Voila, your computer is now always on!

You might want to put a note in your breaker panel with everything you're found (and/or done) so that the next guy who owns the house doesn't go through your pain, too.

We have a light switch in our house, mounted about 6' high, that controls the light in the attic. Took a while to figure that one out.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2009 12:28

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

Uhh, that light is the "protected" light... It's supposed to be on. It only goes off if the GFCI is shorted or you pressed the Test button... You can also tell if the GFCI is working or tripped by the Reset button itself, in = protected, out = tripped.

No, in most of them, the light means it's tripped. If it's hooked up backwards, it's usually pretty obvious.

Local Yokel: Look for the "line" and "load" sites of the GFCI. Usually one will be the top, and the other the bottom. Hook the hot feeder to the "line" terminals, and the string of receptacles-to-be-protected to the "load" terminals. The white wires go on the side with the wider prong, the black wires on the side with the narrower prong. This, too, should be marked.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2009 02:35

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Local Yokel posted:

How do they work anyway? And why is a single pole switch $2.50, and three way switch $3.50, and a four way switch $14.95? (these prices are for "decor" switch panels). Is there some kind of fancy voodoo behind having three different switches on the same light. It better be able to sync with my phone for that price.

"Normal" light switches are STST
3-way are SPDT, where one common terminal switches alternately between two travellers
4-way are DPDT, in a criss-cross, where two incoming travellers switch between two outgoing.

You need a 3-way switch where the hot wire enters the first switch from the panel, and a 3-way switch where the hot wire going from the last switch to the light. You need 4-way switches on any switch in-between. You can't use normal 39-cent switches anywhere you want more than one switch to control a light.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2009 14:39

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

You probably will get a 60Hz hum if you tried this. Also, it's illegal to run communications cables in the same raceway as power cables. There are a few technicalities that may let you get away with it if you're careful, and shielded phone line should mitigate the hum issue.

What sort of conduit are you using for this? If it's as large as you say, it probably isn't "raceway" at all and the code issues are N/A, as you need to run new conduit in the hole anyhow. FYI, for 400', you're going to have to REALLY oversize the cable for voltage drop.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2009 21:59

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Elendil004 posted:

There's no applicable codes this is in VT.

Oh, you'd better believe there are codes for this stuff! And he's probably already violated several of them. Heh.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2009 22:33

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Elendil004 posted:

I'm not a contractor but he's been doing this stuff longer than I've been alive, probably longer than you've been alive. So I'll take him at his word. Like I said though, fiberoptics and such are out of his realm of knowledge so I was just trying to gather some info.

I like the idea of shielded phone lines, but is there any reason TO or NOT TO run them fiber optic as well (Can you?)

That doesn't mean he's been doing it right all these years. I see an awful lot of people doing things the wrong way. A disturbing number of contractors in my area have never even seen a code book, letalone know what the building codes are. Duct banks require either strict conformance to designs in the code book (this is NOT one of those designs) or stamped engineering drawings attesting to their design. Which he probably doesn't have, either.

Fiber optics are non-conductive, so there's no issue at all. Fiber optics are usually way more expensive than copper phone lines, so it's rare to see them over such a short distance. There would be 0 interference on fiber optics from the power lines, and 0 chance of a short circuit. And yes, you can go back and forth- data is data, you simply need the right media converters/transceivers.

# ¿ Apr 12, 2009 23:51

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

kid sinister posted:

Go to the library and look up the National Electric Code. Nearly every city/county/whatever in the US uses this. They update it every 3 years, the most recent edition is 2008.

I'd actually recommend the International Residential Code (IRC) instead. It includes all portions of NEC that's relavant to residential construction and leaves out all the N/A bits that confuse people. It also include all the plumbing, HVAC, etc, that a DIY homeowner needs to know.

There's nothing wrong with grouping a bunch of lights together. You can put them on individual circuits if you'd like, but there's really no reason to, and you'll just waste money in extra breakers and wires and probably need an extra panel at some point. So long as the circuit is sized to support everything on it, you're OK.

Hot water on demand draws a LOT of current- an obscene amount, really. A small one may not be too bad, but a large one is probably just not practical. Just run your tap for 10 seconds like the rest of us

As far as easy mistakes... make sure the right size cable for the circuit (#12 for 20A), make sure to leave 6" of wire in each outlet, and plan ahead- think everything through before you do it! If you plan out every iota of your upcoming upgrades, you'll not be caught by surprise and will have an easier and cheaper time of it. For instance, find out what your water heater demand is, what your new HVAC equipment requires, and do the NEC calculations for your panel to make sure 200A is enough. If not, go from there.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2009 01:17

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

GreenTrench posted:

On demand hot water heaters use less energy than a conventional electrical hot water heater since it doesn't have to keep a giant tank of water warm. But your flow is limited.

Less energy, but FAR more power; don't confuse the two.

A 150A tankless water heater can only heat about 4 gallons per minute, wheras a 40 gallon water heater can be powered from a 30-40 Amp circuit. It's the difference between brewing a pot of coffee over 5 minutes vs plugging in 6 or 7 coffee pot heating elements in-line, each drawing 15 amps, so you can heat is as you pour the water into your cup. Likewise, you need to double or triple the size of the gas lines to a gas on-demand water heater. It's easy to run the costs way up in the name of energy efficiency. Properly insulated hot water tanks don't even waste that much heat.

grover fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Apr 15, 2009

# ¿ Apr 15, 2009 03:13

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# ¿ Apr 19, 2024 05:58

grover: Jan 23, 2002; PEW PEW PEW

Potato Alley posted:

I'd like to upgrade the service to 200A, and have a few electrical issues and questions.

1. When I moved in the hot tub and air conditioner subpanels (6 ga wire) were both hooked into the same 60 amp breaker on the main panel. I realize technically they probably wouldn't trip the breaker (hot tub is max 30A, aircon is max 50A, although I believe the aircon unit actually uses the incoming amperage to limit its fan, so it's always using 50A), but this seems illegal and unsafe. I removed the aircon wiring from that breaker, but I can't install a new breaker because the bus bars in that panel aren't long enough. Is this something where I can find longer bus bars, or do I have to replace the panel? (If there were longer bus bars they'd have to have mounting holes in the same place or I'd have to drill/tap new ones in the panel).

You have two options: replace the panel, or move an existing circuit to a new subpanel, and use the freed up slots to feed the subpanel. Depending on the panel, you might also be able to replace some of the 15 or 20A breakers with piggyback breakers which let you install 2 breakers per slot.

The 60A is probably not going to your outside compressor, but the inside air handler. The electric "emergency heat" element is probably the single highest current draw in your house, with the AC compressor drawing far less. You'd need to pull up the equipment tables for both these items to find out. There's another easy way to tell, too- Got a clamp ammeter?

quote:

2. I want to put a new 100A load center in the garage for garage workshop circuits plus any additional circuits in future that I want to run into the house. I've gotten the impression I should be able to run this myself (2 ga wire with at least a 6 ga ground, yes?) and get the electrician who upgrades the service to check off on this as part of the permit he pulls to upgrade the service. Besides following code for the panel and wire run, anything I need to be aware of as regards this plan?

Depends what kind of wire you're running. If you use romex, you'd need #1 romex. You could use #3 THHN, though, if the terminals are all rated for 90C. If the terminals are 75C, then you'd need #2. You can use #8 ground. It's OK to oversize. In fact, if this is for a garage workshop, you might want to oversize for voltage drop anyhow, even if the lengths are pretty short.

quote:

3. I recently put new lights in the garage (and painted it). There used to be two 2-tube T12 fixtures running off 14 ga Romex (stapled to joists, my garage ceiling is unfinished), now there's thirteen 2-tube T8 fixtures in 3 rows of 3, one row of 4, running off 12/2 THHN through EMT to the first fixture in each row, and solid 12/2 MC between fixtures in each row. However, I am an idiot and didn't realize that this would require permits (for some reason, I figured that permits were for "serious" things like running new panels). Also, the new conduit starts from the same place the Romex came out of the wall, which is to say the 14 ga Romex is joined to the THHN in a box there, and it's 14/2 Romex from there to the two switches that control the lights and back to the breaker panel. Unfortunately, that Romex is all in the two sides of my garage that ARE finished (and that I just finished painting). Is this against code to have larger gauge wire further on down the line? I would think it's against code if I upgraded the breaker to 20A or if I'd used smaller gauge than the 14, but joining larger gauge cable after the smaller gauge and with the breaker still at 15A, shouldn't this just be a case of "it's an ugly hack" rather than "it's dangerous"? (Also, nothing else is on that circuit and the lights total 760 watts, so there's no danger of overloading the 15A breaker).

It's OK to use larger gauge wire than required, and to mix/match. It's not advisable because it's more expensive and can confuse people down the line who might see the #12 and think they can upgrade the breaker to 20A, but it's OK electrically any by code. A lot of people run #12 exclusively, regardless of whether 15A or 20A is planned, for this very reason.

quote:

If this does require permits, is this also something I could theoretically get the electrician to sign off on as part of the electrical upgrade? The conduit and cable should all be to code (conduit strapped every 3', all connections in boxes, with boxes and thus conduit grounded to the grounding wire even though I think that's not strictly necessary).

This requires permits in just about every locality. The solution is easy, though: pull a permit as if you hadn't started the work yet, and then call them back a few weeks later to inspect it

quote:

4. Stupid not quite related question - I recently got a 230v compressor (3 HP Marathon Electric continuous duty motor), and I bought a bunch of 10/3 cable to run to it. The house was remodeled shortly before I got it, and they got rid of the second electric oven circuit (and according to the house inspector simply dropped that cable where it was in the crawlspace under the kitchen, hooray for that). That means I have an empty 30A breaker in the current subpanel, which appears to be two 15A bonded together. However, when I hook the compressor into it (one black wire into each breaker, neutral & ground into respective places), it trips the breaker(s) after a minute or so. Is this something I'm not understanding about the breakers (i.e. it doesn't actually work as a 30A but rather trips as soon as one leg pulls more than 15A?), or could it be a problem with the motor trying to pull more than 30A? (I'd understand if it tripped immediately as it would be a current-inrush problem, but it goes usually until the compressor reaches about 30 psi, which makes me wonder if the motor is then pulling more current to drive the pistons and tripping the breaker).

You mean two 15A breakers with a yoke? What you have is not a 30A 240V breaker, it's a 15A 240V breaker. You don't add the phases.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2009 11:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Hobbies, Crafts, & Houses > Wiring Thread: This stupid safety device started alerting that there wasn't safety!

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