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Just bought a new house and have 2 seperate circuits with GFCI breakers that keep tripping at what seemed to be random times. Long story short I didn't think both were related but after ruling out what I thought might be causing each to trip I discovered that both seem to go off when we run the "new to the house" 1200w microwave, not every time its run, and thus not always at the same time, which is why I didn't connect the dots before but today they did both go off at the same time and I was able to repeat the trip. So the thing is, neither is on the same circuit as the microwave, in fact one isn't even in the same panel, it's on a sub-panel, also neither of the other 2 GFCI breakers in the house are doing this, and neither are any of the GFCI outlets, that would all make me think this is a coincidence but since I can reproduce the trip it can't be. So thread what do you think, am I looking at a bad microwave that's putting a lot noise out over the electrical system in my house(or radio waves)? Am I looking at 2 bad GFCI breakers? Is the wiring in the house just hosed? The house was built in 1980 so there's no historical gremlins in the wiring. When the problem first came up I considered just replacing the breakers with normal ones and installing GFCI outlets where needed but was concerned I'd just be covering up a potential problem not fixing it. Now that it seems to be the non-connected microwave I'm leaning towards doing just that but wanted a second opinion.
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Oct 22, 2018 05:49
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Mimesweeper posted:the only thing i can think is the microwave is leaking radio waves that are inducing a tiny current somewhere in the house wiring and that's causing the gfi trip, but i am completely pulling this out of my rear end and it sounds like you live in the twilight zone. what a weird problem Honestly I considered it, just Googling the issue online has come up with actual electricians complaining of similar issues, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that it's just tripping those 2 GFI breakers, and none of the outlets literally feet from the microwave itself. Nevets posted:What are the breakers rated for? Not sure why both are tripping, but the tripping itself might be simply due to overloading it and solvable by moving some appliances to another circuit's outlet. They're 20 amp breakers, and I completely unloaded them for testing purposes and they still tripped. The seperate circuit the microwave is on is, supposedly, a dedicated circuit, though I can't know that for certain, but that circuit isn't tripping at all. kid sinister posted:Do you have any old appliances plugged into those GFCIs or outlets protected by them? Older, big motors can trip them with false positives: fridges, washers, vacuums... I don't think there's a single appliance in the house over 13 years old, the previous owners replaced everything except the washer and dryer but we had newer ones brought with us. Shared neutral sounds like a possible cause except one of the two tripping panels is on its own subpanel which seems to make that unlikely, maybe I'll just blame it on ghosts. I'll have a look in the panel to make sure there's no obvious buggery in there and just switch from GFI breakers to outlets and call it done. Thanks everyone. Elem7 fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 04:25
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Am I correct in thinking an AL 2-2-2-4 service entry cable is adequate to feed a sub-panel off a 100 amp breaker in the main panel? Total run is maybe 15 feet at most, the sub and main panels share the same wall on different floors, no conduit, from what I can the existing cable isn't even stapled it just goes up the wall cavity and through a hole drilled in the sill plate. The sub-panel is a 125 amp panel but is currently fed with a 50 amp breaker over 6-6-6 AL.
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Apr 25, 2020 07:43
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During a recent subpanel circuit upgrade project I'd asked about awhile ago I discovered many sketchy wiring issues after opening up the drywall in various places and there's one minor situation I'm looking for some advice on. I discovered what appears to be a run of cable that by all appearances was cut in the middle on purpose, it's a clean cut, abandoned and then drywalled over. I have no idea what purpose it ever served or where the 2 ends lead to but it isn't live so I'm not hugely concerned its a fire risk but that said I'm not real comfortable just leaving it in the wall as is not knowing where they lead. I'm sure the most correct answer is to remove it but I'm not willing to go on a magical drywall cutting journey to follow the 2 ends wherever they go, obviously. Failing that the next best option would seem to be stripping both ends and capping the wires with wire nuts but there's not enough slack there to pull either end into a junction box and I'm not sure doing that then leaving them hanging in the joist bay is any better than the current situation. What would a goon electrician do if this was in their own house? Tape the ends and leave em?
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May 14, 2020 06:36
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Got a question about getting power to a wall mount TV in a code compliant way. After nearly 2 years in our current house I finally bought a new TV I want to go through the trouble of wall mounting. The previous owners already had someone install a behind the TV outlet where its going but the problem is I want to hook up the TV to a double conversion UPS, which obviously won't fit behind the TV. So, having a regular power outlet at the TV doesn't help me, I need to get power from a UPS at a built-in entertainment cabinet 10 feet away to the TV, through the wall. Obviously just running an extension cord in the wall along the same path as the HDMI cables is a code violation but is it true I can functionally do the same thing by plugging a short extension into the UPS, plugging that into an "inlet" outlet like the one below, which is in turn connected via an NM cable in the wall to a regular outlet behind the TV? If so do they make interior "inlet" outlets? All the ones I seem to be finding look like they're meant for outdoor use and wouldn't mount to a typical electrical box. https://www.amazon.com/Solo-Lights-Convenience-Electrical-Resistant/dp/B07HKNWNVN
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Aug 29, 2020 03:27
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Yah I had seen some of those all-in-one kits already and the ones I saw all had chintzy and far to short in-wall cables in the kit, plus, I mean, $99 for that? Ended up finding an inlet outlet that's still 10x what a regular outlet costs but, better than 50x. Thanks for confirming I can do the same myself with regular NM.
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Aug 29, 2020 18:44
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On that subject, last time I did some wiring it involved 1 particular junction box with 3 240v circuits in a mix of #10 and #12 and I had a hell of a time corralling all the grounds into (2)blue nuts and decided maybe it was time to start using Wago's. Wago has a lot of different series and I recall some of them being talked down on, the 221 lever series are some of the good ones though right? I just ordered a bunch of the #10 and #12 ones off Amazon.
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Dec 6, 2020 22:20
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You may want to do some research into total harmonic distortion(THD), I believe those Fireman generators from Costco, like many cheap portables, only advertise as <25% which is a bottom of the barrel number and way beyond the <5% recommended. That's more than I'd risk personally. Since you're only looking at under 7kw you may want to just get an inverter unit, unless you're spending over $3k they're the only way to get that low THD I'm aware of. All that said I wanted more power, and have a 50amp receptacle on my transfer switch so I rolled the dice on a dual fuel 12k unit with an advertised <10% THD
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Dec 21, 2020 03:20
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Not saying it's a good idea here but why don't I see UF in that list?
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Apr 2, 2021 21:57
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Is coming out of a regular wall box with MC cable under and through a vanity to a box mounted on the side of the vanity code compliant? Fuzzy/area dependent but at least not stupid? I'd like to get on the bidet bus with the biggest obstacle being power at the toilet and this is the simplest solution for 2 of my bathrooms and seems like it'd be fine to me but while I'm not a stranger to home wiring I'm no electrician. I do not have to worry about any inspections but I'm pro dont-do-stupid-poo poo.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:11
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Re: 14-50 for car charger plus possible future sub-panel. I'm going to be the guy that disagrees and says you should at least ask what the cost difference is to run a 100amp feeder if you think you might want a sub-panel in there later. I don't know how long this run is but the cost difference of the cable is possibly negligible against the cost of the total project. There are already cars out there that can take advantage of more than 50 amps for L2 charging, and having the option to charge 2 EVs overnight may one day be an expected nicety. The PO of my house had a 50-amp sub-panel installed in the basement garage and within 2 years of living here I ended up re-running a bigger feeder, the actual cable cost was nothing compared to the time spent tearing open drywall and running it then fixing everything.
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Nov 4, 2022 07:24
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VelociBacon posted:e: Resolved this, thanks. Not an expert but I'd be more worried about the wire gauge and whether or not the Wago is rated for it. Theoretically I'm told thermostat wire "should" be 18ga but I'm pretty certain its no more than 24ga in my house and my in-laws seemed even smaller than that, and I've heard of plenty of people using network cable for new installs which could be anything from 22-28ga. At the very least I'd do some pull tests with a piece of spare wire to make sure the Wago's got a good grip.
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Nov 19, 2022 20:48
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I'm going to need my main panel replaced this summer and its getting close enough I want to figure out exactly what its being replaced with to order parts so I'm not fighting with supply issues. I think I've got a good handle on it but I did have 2 questions. 1. I've seen Square D QO panels recommended every time it comes up but what about their HOM line? Any concerns there? Since this is a replacement I think the full length neutral bars are going to be better, either way I'll get PoN. 2. Even if not required for permitting or inspection would you still install AFCI everywhere applicable? I still see a lot of heartache over it, especially in retrofits, but I'm not sure how much of that is from early teething issues when it was new.
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Mar 12, 2023 10:37
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Motronic posted:1.) Homeline is fine. It's simply not as good, but it's fine. You don't have the same level of breaker availability (varieties of sizing, double poles, etc) and the breakers themselves aren't as good (when tested under lab conditions). They also don't have the little orange tripped flag in them. You likely won't notice the difference on a properly sized panel in your home. At some point in the pandemic I installed a homeline panel because I couldn't get the QO breakers I needed due to availability issues. Thanks, anyone use a panel with their Qwik-Grip system? Seems like it'd be more convenient for no real loss, whether I go with that or a regular KO only panel unfortunately I think I'm going to have to enlarge one of the 3/4'' knockouts to 1 1/4'' to accommodate 2 sub-panels and a 65amp line for a large induction range.
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Mar 12, 2023 22:07
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A few days ago I asked if Square D's Homeline panels were worth considering vs the typically recommended QO panels and for a yes/no on if AFCI is worth it when not required by local authorities. Motronic answered both questions, thanks again, but after filling a couple online shopping carts I'm reconsidering the panel. Any reason I shouldn't consider a Seimen's panel instead? Unfortunately as far as I can tell Square D only offers regular Tandem breakers whereas Seimen's has CAFCI tandems available. My existing panel has problems other than just capacity but that is one thing I'm hoping to improve on and since its already a 40 space panel, a full one, the only way to do so significantly is with Tandem breakers. Seems like the Seimen's is roughly equivalent to the Homeline but I figured it was worth asking.
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Mar 15, 2023 06:37
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Anyone with bad opinions or concerns about the new Leviton outlets with the Wago-like lever connections? I figured it was an unnecessary gimmick when I saw them getting hyped on YT, but I want to replace some outlets and was surprised to discover they're available in 10-packs where they carry no price premium over other name-brand Decora style outlets, soo, why not?
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Sep 10, 2023 08:15
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Exactly the same thoughts, I'd been aware of em for awhile but I thought I made the safe assumption they'd be significantly more money and they're really just not. Going to order a bunch of em, bit of extra motivation to replace the old backstab outlets I know are still lurking in my house which I'm suspecting may cause issues as I upgrade my panel to include AFCI. (I know, I know, if I thought that was the case should've replaced them all already)
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Sep 10, 2023 17:44
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SyNack Sassimov posted:Yeah I know it's 2', but a lot of people say that any derating is bad. I'll probably snip the ties when I mount the backerboard in place. Between the 2 panels I'm pretty sure you're exceeding 2' there, I would definitely say its continuous through the nipple. Those NM connectors are all backwards from the norm, not sure if that actually matters code wise but is the other side not going to be accessible during hookup? Going to be a bit of a pain securing those screws like that, especially for the feeder. I have my own panel install coming up in 2 weeks and will definitely not be posting it following yours. The whole separate pull box is a nice touch, why no room for expansion though?
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Sep 12, 2023 04:18
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As someone who just did a DIY 40-circuit panel swap I'm going to recommend some beefy stand alone side cutters, nice needle nose pliers, and automatic strippers... linesman's are nice, I've used mine a bunch, but not as necessary, use Wago's not nuts, twisting not required. If you're going to actually deal with panel replacements, sub or main, and thus 2+ gauge wires, consider ratcheting cutters. These Klein strippers are nice and cheap available right from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BC39YFQ Edit: Guess I should add, trip report, Thursday I replaced a 40 year old 42-slot CH panel with a new 42-slot Siemens panel. The end result is messier than I'd like compared to SyNack's green field panel(  ) but was 100% successful, no problems encountered at all so far despite going from 0 to 100% AFCI on all 20amp circuits, tandem AFCI no less. I had actually expected I would need to replace a bunch of old outlets and switches but so far nothing has given me any problems.
Elem7 fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Oct 1, 2023 |
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Oct 1, 2023 04:00
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Does anyone know what kind of energy usage AFCI breakers use above and beyond regular breakers? I replaced my main panel back in late September and I used AFCI breakers where appropriate which I'd never had before. I noticed immediately they produced a slight buzz and ran hotter than regular breakers. Since all of them did this I wasn't to concerned and figured it was from whatever circuitry made them AFCI breakers but then the thought occurred to me recently, if they're running hotter, they must be using some electricity just sitting there idle, how much though? Google is failing me, I can find confirmation that it is totally normal that they run hotter, evidently a lot hotter in the case of early examples, but I'm not seeing anything about how much energy they use. I'm just curious, however much it is I'm not about to tear out $1500 worth of AFCI breakers over it.
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Nov 16, 2023 02:34
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Around $3 a month at my rates, so not much, but its interesting to think that's the equivalent of having over a dozen nightlights plugged in all over my house and running 24/7. Thanks.
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Nov 16, 2023 04:04
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Even if you do have a "whole home" surge suppressor in your panel its still recommended to use stand alone SP strips for sensitive electronics, the one in the panel will protect your belongings from big surges coming from the supply side like blown transformers but it can't do anything about surges caused from faulty equipment within your home, however rare, or the small surges caused by large power consumers like AC switching off and on.
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Nov 26, 2023 05:03
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FISHMANPET posted:Since I only have 30 amp service out there currently, I'd put in a 20 amp double pole breaker and limit the charger to 16 Amps. Once I get the full 100 amp service I'd swap out the breaker for 50 or 60 amps (I'm not 100% sure yet if 6 gauge is good enough for 60 amps or not, though it's a very academic distinction because I don't think I'd be using anywhere near enough amperage for it to matter one way or the other). 6ga THHN is fine for 60 amps but you need to swap that 10ga ground wire you're planning for 8ga. I believe some EVs even now support up to 80amps(19.2kw) for level 2 charging so 60 amps is definitely not outside the realm of what you might want in the future.
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Nov 30, 2023 20:39
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FISHMANPET posted:I always love to know more, so can you explain the ground wire sizing a bit? From what I can tell, 250.122 says 10 is sufficient for up to 60A (you can find a picture of the relevant table in this stack overflow post) but there's also so many conditions applied to it that something else might give a different answer. For example, 250.4(A)(5) and (B)(4) seem to basically just say "the ground wire should be sufficiently sized." Also, 6 gauge NMC cable appears to have 10 gauge ground wire rather than 8. The answer to that is, I'm wrong, because I was looking at 250.66 which does call for 8ga but 250.122 is actually the correct table in this situation. Welps, when I was recently going through this it was for a sub-panel feed where .66 would be correct.
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Nov 30, 2023 22:11
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I bought a 1/4 in. torque wrench specifically because I was replacing my main panel. I mostly only used it on the main feeds and larger breakers for things like sub-panels and the range circuit. I don't recall ever seeing an electrician pull one out at my house or for work so I'm not surprised to hear no one generally bothers but the guy who installed my original panel probably should've since 1 of the main feeds was way loose and singed when I moved in. (40 years of heat cycling probably didn't help)
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Jan 8, 2024 23:46
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Siemens PN plug-on-neutral series are also good and way cheaper than the equivalent Square D models, that's what I replaced my older CH panel with recently. I assume Op meant AFCI when he said GFCI, and yes they are required nearly everywhere now and since you're doing a panel replacement and are required to pull permits you likely don't have a choice in the matter. Is your main panel next to your meter? You didn't mention anything about your electrician having to pull a new feeder to your panel from the meter for the service upgrade. That's a minor footnote if your panel and meter are together outside, and a major step if your panel is indoors a good distance away like mine is.
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Jan 30, 2024 01:15
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For what it's worth I replaced my own panel in a 1980 built house and while I'm in a pocket where no permits or inspections are required I still opted to AFCI every regular 20-amp 120v circuit which would require it by code. I fully expected some tripping at outlets and lights which had loose connections, whether from shoddy work or 40 years of heat cycling, but, surprisingly, had 0 trips due to the AFCI, nada, zip. Seems worth it to me, though yes, it did double or triple the cost of the project, it's nothing compared to some other home upgrades, like the 5 or even 6 figures that new windows costs, or a deck rebuild.
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Jan 30, 2024 06:09
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FWIW it's worth while I didn't need to I opted to do AFCI on all my 20amp/120v circuits when I replaced my 40-slot panel last year and have had not 1 single trip in my 1980 built house. This was actually a surprise to me, I had expected at least a few issues, but nothing, nada, they're even tandem AFCI breakers. It definitely seems like they've improved since those early days.
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Apr 23, 2024 21:30
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AFCI + GFCI is a dual function breaker. Modern AFCI alone is actually CAFCI because I guess the original AFCI back in the 00's didn't do as much?
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Apr 24, 2024 03:55
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