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Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.
I'm about to do a complete kitchen renovation, and need to run 3 additional circuits. I'd also like to give the garage it's own dedicated circuit, as well as putting an outlet outside in the sunroom. Garage, kitchen, and sunroom are all adjacent to each other, and on the opposite side of the house from the breakers.

Instead of running 4-5 wires across the entire attic, would it be smarter and/or easier to run one big cable to a new sub-panel in the garage, and then work the new lines from there? Is running a big cable that far (probably 80-90 feet of wire) safe?

I'm pretty confident I can do this all myself. The only thing I'll probably need an electrician for is a heavy-up at the main panel. We've only got 100A service, and I'd like to upgrade that to 250A. I know the panel is rated for 250A, but I was told by my (completely incompetent) home inspector that my meter and service cables weren't. I'm betting that simply upgrading the main breaker is a bad idea.

How much of all this work am I likely to need a permit/inspection for?

Mr. Eric Praline fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Mar 6, 2009

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Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

jackyl posted:

All of it. If you are asking what you can realistically skimp on, the panel upgrade is a definite permit / inspection and then probably the subpanel, since those need the inspection stickers on them if you are ever planning on selling and getting past inspection - at least in Kentucky they do. I'd recommend pulling a permit for everything and getting it inspected anyway, though - not only will you be 100% compliant, you're paying for them to come out anyway, right? Get your money's worth!
Thanks, that's what I figured. My issue with pulling permits is that I worry some inspector will refuse to certify my new work if they come across older stuff that's not up to code. For instance, there are some wires going into junctions just tossed around the attic right now. Nothing's stapled up like it should be. I don't really know how the permit/inspection process works. The place was built in the 50's tho, so nothing's up to current code.

Aside from that tho, my plan does sound reasonable, right? Running the sub panel's a better idea than a bundle of several wires?

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

grover posted:

Edit: or what you COULD do, is put in the new panel yourself, and wire up everything in your kitchen, and hire an electrician to review your work and do all the work in your existing panel. If you work it out in advance, you may even be able to hit him/her up for advice along the way :)
Thanks, that was the plan. I've got a couple books that came highly recommended, and I'll be studying them pretty closely before I do anything.

Any recommendations for getting the parts, or is Home Depot the place to go?

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.
How do you guys manage to fish wires through such tiny little gaps? I'm trying to follow the paths of existing lines, and it's like they were originally fished around all kinds of crazy angles and through tiny little spaces between rafters. Even when I do manage it, the wire's casing is all torn up half the time.

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.
I've been taking the advice you guys gave after my post on page 1. I've been working out the plan and budget, and going over the books I got, and I want to run it past you guys as a sanity check, and make sure I've got a couple details straight.

Basically, the plan is to bring the current system up to code myself, then run the new sub-panel myself, then have an electrician inspect, pull permits, and do the final wiring at the main panel. This way there's no hangups when the new kitchen is installed.

1. Step 1 is to make sure the current system is wired ok. It's not too bad right now as far as I can tell.

* I've got several 3-prong receptacles without a ground. My plan is to replace the leading receptacle on each branch with a GFCI, rather than running all new wire. They're all in bedrooms, so I only really need the 3 prongs for power strips, and don't absolutely need equipment ground. - Any problems with this?
- Is there a way to easily find the first receptacle on the branch without manually disconnecting it and seeing if the rest of the load drops?

* The wiring in the attic is just run where it needs to go. It's not secured to anything. I'm assuming I need to staple it to the beams, and drill through the rafters as specified in my book, right?
- I'll need longer wires to run it in new places, and all the splices have to be in junction boxes, right?

- Any other things I need to look out for in step 1? I've checked, and everything is currently #14 wire, and 15A rated, except the kitchen which is #12 and 20A rated.

- One other thing with the existing wiring: The panel's sticker says it's 125A rated, but the installed main breaker is 100A. Is it possible to replace it with a 125A breaker to get a mini-upgrade without needing a whole new panel?

2. Step 2 is to run the new sub-panel into the garage.

* Install 60A/240v breaker in the main panel (Possible future 240v tools.)
* Run the correct size wire across the basement, through the attic, and down to the garage wall.
-I'm having trouble determining what size wire to use. It seems like a #6 is enough for 60A, but it runs through the attic, which gets really hot in the summer (120F+, I'd guess). Should I use a bigger cable due to the heat? What size? Do I need 4 conductors for 240v? (want to make sure I buy the right stuff the first time)
* Mount the new 60A panel in the garage, and wire that end in.
- I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what panel to buy. Most 60A rated panels seem to be meant for air conditioning disconnects. Is it OK to buy a 100A panel, and put a 60A breaker into it?

3. Step 3 is to run the circuits from the new panel.
* All these 20A/120v.
* 3 circuits to the kitchen: Fridge, Microwave, other appliances. Leave current circuits in place for receptacles.
* 1 circuit with a branch to the sunroom, and a branch to garage.
* 1 circuit to an outside receptacle.


Also, unrelated to my project, I found this, which is educational. I seem to get the general ideas right, (even if I couldn't cite the specific codes myself or anything) and it seems to me that most code violations are pretty obviously out of place.
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/

Mr. Eric Praline fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Mar 26, 2009

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

Menekali posted:

Great thread! I've learned a bit so far and, I've always had issues trying to understand anything remotely electrical.

I do however, have a question. I loaned my truck to a friend recently (1994 Ford Bronco XLT). Comes back with a flat 37" wheel (YAY!) but the real issue, is none of the dome, or door lights would turn off. Essentially thrashing my battery. Apparently he fooled around, and tried to tune some poo poo up on the truck (wasn't needed anyway, it JUST had it's tune up).

Essentially, where the gently caress do I start? I have no idea where or how to go about tracking down what might be causing the lights in the cabin to stay on even after the doors are closed. I'm clueless here!
I've got a lot of experience with auto electrics, tho certainly not a pro. Not sure this is really the thread for it tho.

I'm guessing he broke the switch. Try completely removing it, and see if the lights shut off. (Or connect the + and - wires, and see if they shut off. Might be a normally closed type switch. Actually, if it's this type, he may have just cut one of the wires somewhere, and you'll have to find the break.) If it's not the switch, then put the it back on and pull the fuse. Does that shut off the lights?

If not, then he's rewired it to a constant, and you'll need to find the splice. I'd start at the switch, and look around to see if there are wires missing from there. If not, try it from the fuse block. Most people wouldn't re-route too far from the original. If you can't find it, you'll have to trace by hand, which is a huge pain in the rear end.

Did he put a new stereo in? Maybe check behind the stereo. He may have tried to wire it into the dome light's switched power and used the wrong wire.

(Edit: I'm also assuming he was mucking with the interior wiring on purpose for some reason. There are very few things in the engine compartment that could cause this.)

Mr. Eric Praline fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Mar 26, 2009

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

grover posted:

Try the dimmer switch on the dash first; he might have bumped it to full on. Look for switches on the dome light, too, there might be switches you don't even know about ;) One of the microswitches that sense the doors are open might have failed, too; those are difficult to troubleshoot for, though. In the meantime, you can pull the fuse or pull the bulbs so you don't drain your battery.
Heh, yeah I overlooked the obvious dimmer option. :rolleyes:

But yes, when I say switch, I mean the thing that the door presses. I also mean any interior switch such as the dimmer, but the doors are more likely to fail. Without a multimeter, it can take some trial and error, since there's a multi-way logic to it. (Circuit's on with any/all doors open, circuit's off with all doors closed.) But just pop them out one at a time and test by manually joining the wires.

If you've got a multimeter, you can test for shorts at the fuse, as well as testing the switches themselves.

Grover's right tho. Pull the fuse till you figure it out.

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

mrglynis posted:

Why would you have less splicing and replacing to do? I'm might be looking at it from the wrong perspective. As it stands, most if not virtually all of the wiring in the house is 2-wire. So in order to bring everything up to snuff, it all needs to be replaced with 3 wire, so that everything; switches, outlets, everthing will be nice and grounded.
If I'm not mistaken, you can leave the 2-wire, as long as all 3-prong outlets are GFCI protected. You also won't be able to properly hard-wire any motors without a ground somewhere. (Dishwasher, garbage disposal, etc)

grover posted:

Your plan looks good, and you're asking all the right questions :) I think you'll be successful!
Awesome, thanks for your help. I'll likely be hitting this thread up all through the process once it starts. :)

Mr. Eric Praline fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Mar 27, 2009

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

jackyl posted:

Nope, use old work boxes.
Every time I've tried to install an old-work box, the drywall wouldn't hold it, and just crumbled around the clamps. That link has some tips that might help next time though, so thanks for it.

Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

jackyl posted:

If you have particularly old / crumbly drywall, you can use a could of 1/4" or 1/2" inch strips of plywood cut about 8 inches long and maybe an inch wide. Put them horizontally at the top and bottom of your cutout and secure them to the drywall with drywall screws. This will allow the clamps to go against that plywood instead of the drywall - it will require some extremely easy mudding and sanding to cover the screws of course.

Let me know if I didn't describe that very well and I'll try an MS Paint or something of what I mean.
Nope, I've got a pretty good idea of what you're talking about, and it should work great. Thanks. :)

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Mr. Eric Praline
Aug 13, 2004
I didn't like the others, they were all too flat.

babyeatingpsychopath posted:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/categories/test-instruments/electrical-power-testing/circuit-tracers

Circuit tracer. They sell them pretty much anywhere you can buy electrical tools. They can be a little tricky to use, but are well worth it even if you only use it once to map out your whole house. While you're at it, get a 2-prong plug to socket base converter (looks like a light bulb base with an outlet in it). That way, you can plug the tracer into your lights to trace them as well. Lights and outlets may be on radically different and nonlogical circuits.
These seem to trace from an outlet to the breaker. Is there something like this that'll trace the wires inside the walls, so I don't have to tear out drywall to figure out where each branch ends up going when I want to run a new 3-conductor wire?

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