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Alouicious posted:I thought that's what he did for Flame Princess too?
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May 16, 2012 23:12
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Dr Nick posted:Oh. Well I play with people (all women--mostly strippers and porn actresses) who talk about rape and sexual abuse pretty much every day (outside of games) of their own accord (sometimes seriously sometimes not). And while I have never introduced it into a setting (and wouldn't) they have and do, but they bring it up on about a 'South Park' level of seriousness--not as a thing any of the PCs do or as a wish-fulfillment. And it comes up much less than it does in ordinary conversation. I have never seen the slightest indication from James in real life that he had the slightest interest in having players enact rape fantasies at the table. I mean, if you have players who want to do that, I think the problem is waaaaay more serious than what edition you're playing.
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May 16, 2012 23:13
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Zak S posted:In addition, most of the more interesting OSR bloggers believe that some of these ideas can be built on to form whole new games and ways of playing games using these ideas. Alouicious posted:I thought that's what he did for Flame Princess too?
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May 16, 2012 23:16
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ProfessorCirno posted:the vast majority of what makes up the "OSR" comes from places like RPGsite or Dragonsfoot or the particularly horrid posters at ENWorld and RPGnet. I don't read forums much. The OSR-of-my-understanding is a web of mostly blogs extending from Jeff Rients, the blogger, James Mal, the blogger, and a network of retroclone publishers at the center.
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May 16, 2012 23:17
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Zak S posted:Y'know what? I'm checking myself here: Raggi talks a lot of smack. It is pretty much the mirror image of the smack talked here, but it is still smack-talking. Dudes the guy who promotes and supports multiple games where rape is a major thing is totally just doing it ironically, your move grognards 
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May 16, 2012 23:18
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ProfessorCirno posted:I mean, check it: when you first entered das blagosphere Zak, the overwhelming response from the "OSR" was that you were some sinister sexhaver monster seeking to corrupt their proud citadel of old schoolery. And when Penny Arcade did a full piece on playing a retroclone and enjoying it, they howled and threw their poop like so many monkeys at how he wasn't showing them the proper respect in their blatent advertisement and how they were just a bunch of snot nosed kids. The major OSR bloggers were very kind and curious and nice. Unlike, say, certain forums I could name.
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May 16, 2012 23:19
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Glitterbomber posted:Dudes the guy who promotes and supports multiple games where rape is a major thing is totally just doing it ironically, your move grognards
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May 16, 2012 23:20
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FMguru posted:It's totally unfair to judge a person by his record of public statements and public behavior That one cuts both ways. We can condemn you and James or neither. Which would you prefer?
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May 16, 2012 23:21
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Zak S posted:Yeah, your "they" is not my "they"--as I explained in my previous post. So basically this is like me constantly running into a thread and throwing a shitfit when Esquire is mocked because I like a couple of their regular columns? Do you see the issue here?
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May 16, 2012 23:21
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Glitterbomber posted:So basically this is like me constantly running into a thread and throwing a shitfit when Esquire is mocked because I like a couple of their regular columns? Do you see the issue here? To me it's about a stereotype and about how you're not helping what I think is, with some posters, a sincere desire to advance a discussion about RPG design by promulgating a stereotype. It's like deciding ideas must be back-engineered to be bad because they appeared in Esquire. It slows progress down.
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May 16, 2012 23:24
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Zak S posted:To me it's about a stereotype and about how you're not helping what I think is, with some posters, a sincere desire to advance a discussion about RPG design by promulgating a stereotype. It's almost like this thread made to make fun of people being dumb isn't the place for a deep examining of the community as a whole including the totally normal dudes. edit: wait, no. No one is even doing that! We're making fun of people, not concepts! A lot of us pretty unironically dig oldschool D&D in some doses, no one is like, doing a book burning of AD&D!
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May 16, 2012 23:26
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Zak S posted:That one cuts both ways. In fairness, 'are mean about elfgames' is not quite as damning as 'rape supporter'.
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May 16, 2012 23:28
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Zak S posted:That one cuts both ways. Yeah I'm not sure "rape cheerleader" is on the same level as the stuff you're accusing us of here. Not even an edit: goddamnit mors
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May 16, 2012 23:29
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Glitterbomber posted:It's almost like this thread made to make fun of people being dumb isn't the place for a deep examining of the community as a whole including the totally normal dudes. Here's a thing. What, to you, I'm sure looks like the harmless "point and laugh" part of the thread looks, from the outside, like the "Pointless Tribal Chest-Beating" part of the thread. And what, from inside the OSR, just looks like harmless "point and laugh" posts looks, to you, like "Pointless Tribal Chest Beating", I'm sure. A confusion of the serious and the unserious (and who considers what serious) is a big part of real things that come up here in this thread.
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May 16, 2012 23:30
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Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, 'are mean about elfgames' is not quite as damning as 'rape supporter'. When you say that, are you saying "I believe that James Raggi is in favor of rape"? If not, what are you saying?
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May 16, 2012 23:31
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Zak S posted:Here's a thing. Raggi promotes rape. We're mean on the internet. Truly, it is us who are the real monsters.
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May 16, 2012 23:31
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There is a genuinely interesting question here: How "serious" (or "obviously unserious") does a cultural product have to be before it's allowed to address the subject of rape? Is Poison'd allowed a pass because, basically, it's (considered) good and Carcosa doesn't because it's (considered) bad? Can rape be in a South Park joke? Can rape be in that Misfits song "Last Caress"? These are real things worth talking about. But deciding that James wants people to be raped because of Carcosa is disingenuous and I think at least some people here probably know that.
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May 16, 2012 23:38
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Zak S posted:When you say that, are you saying "I believe that James Raggi is in favor of rape"? If not, what are you saying? I can say from experience that if you say anything nice about a product with the word rape in it then yes, this thread does think you are promoting rape.
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May 16, 2012 23:41
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Do you really think that describing how to kill and repeatedly rape a girl counts as "dealing with" rape on any serious level? You can address rape in all sorts of media, but let's not pretend like Carcosa "deals with rape." It's just using rape as puerile bullshit to fill out its spell descriptions.
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May 16, 2012 23:43
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Zak S posted:That one cuts both ways. I write a pretty scathing blog about the industry, in which I say some very nasty things. People have said some awful things about me for it, and most of them are self-avowed OSR types. Do I care? Not really. I wouldn't go troll their forums or try to argue with them about it, because I know that any discussion I have on a forum like Dragonsfoot or GreyhawkGrognard's blog is going to be disingenious and a one-sided pile-on-the-bad-guy sort of affair. In fact, I generally don't have discussions about serious things on the internet (save for here, my blog, and occasionally Twitter). This is because these are areas where I won't have to deal with the kind of ridiculous, fallacious things that pass for "argumentation" on the rest of the internet. In this thread, I may disagree with what OTSPIII says about a lot of things, but he makes some good points, and I enjoy reading them. I always enjoy it when someone breaks up the monotony of RAPE VERSIMILITUDE OOOOOLLLLLD with something interesting; it is often said that the derails are the best part of grog.txt. Locus Cosecant, Liesmith, all of these people shake things up on a regular basis, and this thread is better for it. The reason for that is that they are interested in debating the points on an intellectually honest playing field. I may not agree, but I respect them. You're not that. You drive-by this thread, drop little bits of condescension and unfounded assertion, and then try to bully the argument into going your way. When it doesn't, you take your ball and go home for a day, or a week. You throw around your internet rock star status and how many porn stars and game designers you know like it's supposed to give you some sort of credibility. It doesn't. Sure, we get a bit echo-chambery. We're an insular group of posters, and we have all the accompanying issues. So if you're just here to tell us that we typify people, that's not news to us; we figured it out fifty thousand posts ago. We're the grognards. You can't be the dogfucker. Get out.
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May 16, 2012 23:43
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Assumethisisreal posted:I can say from experience that if you say anything nice about a product with the word rape in it then yes, this thread does think you are promoting rape. You mean like the time you defended Carcosa because it only had a little child rape/murder in it you guys, why are you treating it like a big deal, just ignore it for the good bits? Or the time you tried Devil's Advocating for Gor (rape: the series) and Witch Girl Adventures? Once again, FTFY.
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May 16, 2012 23:44
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^^^^^** I've never read Gor? Gau posted:
It's that you don't care that this is true that bothers me.
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May 16, 2012 23:47
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Zak S posted:When you say that, are you saying "I believe that James Raggi is in favor of rape"? If not, what are you saying?
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May 16, 2012 23:47
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counterspin posted:Do you really think that describing how to kill and repeatedly rape a girl counts as "dealing with" rape on any serious level? You can address rape in all sorts of media, but let's not pretend like Carcosa "deals with rape." It's just using rape as puerile bullshit to fill out its spell descriptions. I definitely do not think it "deals with" the subject in any real way. No. My question still stands--are South Park and the Misfits as bad as James here to you? Why or why not?
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May 16, 2012 23:48
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Assumethisisreal posted:It's that you don't care that this is true that bothers me. Did you not read the rest of my post where I talked about how we have a built-in counter-mechanism to this tendency?
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May 16, 2012 23:49
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Zak S posted:When you say that, are you saying "I believe that James Raggi is in favor of rape"? If not, what are you saying? I believe James Raggi is a man who supports rape culture through his support of games with rape as a major facet, ironic or not. Also South Park is terrible, so yea not really able to fall into that trap.
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May 16, 2012 23:49
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ImpactVector posted:James Raggi is perpetuating rape culture. AIR, it's that you don't care that this is true that bothers me.
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May 16, 2012 23:50
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Glitterbomber posted:I believe James Raggi is a man who supports rape culture through his support of games with rape as a major facet, ironic or not. And the Misfits? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y2MyMqVD0E
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May 16, 2012 23:51
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Zak S posted:And the Misfits? How about you make a point instead? I dig a lot of the Misfits but I can't listen to youtube right now, so I can't play your dumb "and THIS are you against THIIIIIIS?!" game. James Raggi cheerleads for two games that have rape as a major part, ironic or not this supports rape culture and is a bad thing, that's the topic.
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May 16, 2012 23:53
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Zak S posted:And the Misfits? I definitely think a 30-year-old shock-punk band is a great way to analyze progressive issues. (For the record, I loved the Misfits when I was in high school.) Do you want to respond to my actual point?
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May 16, 2012 23:54
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Zak S posted:There is a genuinely interesting question here: I personally think Poison'd using rape is bad! I would not play or support Poison'd. For me, it comes down to 'why are you including rape? Did you need to? Could you achieve this some other way?' This is especially true in roleplaying games, because in that case anything included is meant for one person to use on another or numerous others. Either the GM uses the thing in an RPG to create some situation for the players, or a player uses it to change things for another player or NPCs; in either case, with rape it becomes one person bringing rape into things among their friends. I don't think that's cool, especially since it is almost never used in a way that requires it be rape. E: And I do not believe Raggi would be all for real rape, but I feel his support of products containing rape and meant for use as a role-playing game helps further the idea that rape is not a big deal and is perfectly okay to use for shock value, which is bad.
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May 16, 2012 23:57
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Zak S posted:And the Misfits? I GOT SOMETHING TO SAY this is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand and you should probably drop it.
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May 16, 2012 23:58
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Glitterbomber posted:How about you make a point instead? I dig a lot of the Misfits but I can't listen to youtube right now, so I can't play your dumb "and THIS are you against THIIIIIIS?!" game. James Raggi cheerleads for two games that have rape as a major part, ironic or not this supports rape culture and is a bad thing, that's the topic. I feel like I understand your position. I am trying to understand where it comes from. I am not trying to make you like James Edward Raggi, I am simply trying to figure out what makes this--as opposed to other things--tip the scales for you. I hope you can appreciate that this is an example I'm using to try to understand where you're coming from, not an elaborate mind game. Here's the lyrics to Last Caress (originally by the Misfits, covered by Metallica): "I've got something to say/I raped your mother today/Doesn't matter much to me as long as she spreads". It's loud, it's the hook, you can't hear the song without hearing this line fairly legibly. If your position is "treating rape casually contributes, accidentally or on purpose, to rape culture" this is a position I understand, whether or not I share it. If your position is "putting rape in an RPG means people will use the game to act out rape fantasies" then this is a position I think is strange because I think the real problem is "Holy hell you have someone nuts at your table!". If it's something else, exactly, I'd like to know what that is.
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May 17, 2012 00:00
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poo poo even before I understood terms like patriarchy and rape culture, I knew it was hosed up to casually throw rape in a game or story. Whether Carcosa and Flame Princess do anything else right (and that's debatable itself), using rape as a cheap reinforcement of EEEEVILLLL is a shallow, brainless tactic that will drive customers away unless they're already the sort of people you probably don't want talking up your products. And more importantly, it hurts people because it reinforces the meme that rape is the default 'bad thing that happens to women' instead of a conscious choice on the part of rapists.
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May 17, 2012 00:02
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Zak S posted:I feel like I understand your position. I am trying to understand where it comes from. Why the gently caress are you talking about the Misfits when it has literally nothing to do with his. Also it's the rape culture bit.
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May 17, 2012 00:03
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Short version: First, I think rape is very hard to use properly in any fictional setting (or music, for that matter!) and should be very carefully thought about before you settle on it. I do not believe using it for shock value is good! Second, I do not feel comfortable with any game which encourages me to introduce rape among my friends or encourages my friends to introduce rape to me. I do not want to be friends with people who casually introduce rape into our fun elfgame time, and I do not want a product to encourage that by including it as a major factor!
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May 17, 2012 00:03
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Gau posted:Do you want to respond to my actual point? Either ignore me or don't.
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May 17, 2012 00:04
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Zak S posted:I feel like I understand your position. I am trying to understand where it comes from. No one is ever saying the second thing. It's the first one, don't use rape in your loving elf game because rape culture is a real, oppressive, force in the world. Jeff supports two games that do that, and your only defense to it is 'well he's doing it ironically to get attention' which is just as not-ok than if he was doing it 100% seriously, is this still confusing?
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May 17, 2012 00:04
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Mors Rattus posted:Second, I do not feel comfortable with any game which encourages me to introduce rape among my friends or encourages my friends to introduce rape to me. I do not want to be friends with people who casually introduce rape into our fun elfgame time, and I do not want a product to encourage that by including it as a major factor!
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May 17, 2012 00:06
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Glitterbomber posted:No one is ever saying the second thing. I understand your position perfectly, Glitterbomber. I am now interested to see if everyone else writing now shares your position.
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May 17, 2012 00:07
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