The GM Advice thread: Killing your players quickly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The GM Advice thread: Killing your players quickly

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Ill Switch Worse posted:

Having run a small Vampire: the Masquerade game with some old friends over the summer with moderate success, I've decided to start planning a new game with players from my university who have a bit more experience. My idea was a game set in Las Vegas, with the city run by a Ravnos Baron with a vice for gambling. I'm looking to set up a power structure within the city, but that seems a little more difficult than standard Camarilla fare. Can anyone offer advice on how independent cities are typically structured or recommend any resources that can help on dealing with that? I have ideas for spheres of influence, but I'm really wondering more about kindred politics and a hierarchy there, should one really exist at all.

Watch Casino and steal from it mercilessly.

Seriously, just rip it off wholesale and then add a bit of your spin and let the rest come out in play. They'll never notice.

I mean, come on: vampire Robert de Niro.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2012 22:07

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# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 01:51

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Arrrthritis posted:

Some neurons have been firing for a campaign and I thought I'd ask this thread a couple questions.

When it comes to world building and campaign construction, how do you guys normally go about the process? How much of it do you do before the sessions start? Obviously player input is a great device for both creating a diverse world and getting the players invested, but when are some situations when it would not be appropriate? (barring the obvious "My guy is super awesome and everyone loves him everywhere")

The campaign I have in mind is set in a northern italy type setting, with different cities coexisting in a region, each one vying for power and all of them attempting to resist outside invasion. Each one with different customs, culture, rulers, and governments. I'd like the ability to go into detail about these things should the players be interested, and would probably end up spending a bunch of time working on them.

I also think it would be cool if my players would create a city for the setting, either building it in character, or OOC telling me what that poo poo is all about. If I do this, should I really spend so much time on the other stuff? Would I just be wasting my time if the players are very likely to spend all of their time in something they created?

Another thing I mean to ask, what's a good way to divulge all of this information, and how much is too much? If these are characters that have been living in the setting their whole lives and have been traveling in-between, should I break Show, Don't Tell and give them access to a cliff notes of each city? Or would it be best to let the players infer knowledge through narrative, and have them roll knowledge checks along the way for whatever questions they have?

One of my favorite city campaigns started with me and one of the players doing back and forth with 'facts' about the city, that mentioned some very specific cultural aspect of the city. I'd suggest doing this, then using the collection of facts for a baseline as you develop the city further.

As DM I ended up using every single one of these for plot hooks, so it's a great effort/reward payoff. A few are below, the rest are here under 'rumors and lies'.

quote:

The city of Al Hadras squats athwart the Northern Caravan Route though the Desert of Sharn like a huge poison spider.

Al Hadras represents the last water on the northbound journey to the silk-lands. It sits on a orange, rocky outcrop, surrounded by giant, ancient cacti .

Of the three Caliphs who lay claim to the city, one is a woman, one a sand lich and the third is known only by the gnostic, paranoid pronouncements he leaves pasted on walls in the Djellaba District.

Water is scarce in the city - Deep wells tap into an ancient aquifer of clear water - the same aquifer that feeds the cacti. Waters closer to the surface are polluted by the city's wastes. Plague is common and pestilent waters leech out of the hill, poisoning the nearby desert.

The Festival of Worms is held three times a year on the last day of the second moon. It is said to be when the dead walk and will lay their curse upon any who have not drunk of Tzabr, the fermented cactus liquor. On those days debauchery is rife and unpunished.

The Festival of Worms is so named because of the cactus worms that float at the bottom of the Tzabr liquor. When eaten the worms cause hallucinations. The festival is dedicated to Pakzad, the Night Mother, Goddess of Springs, she who gives and takes life. The Priestess of the Night Mother is still a force in the city, her rambling temple as old as the city, a maze shrouded in incense and dark curtains.

The largest quarter of the city is the Souk al Medina, a sprawling market around the feet of the Spire of Zathar. The Worshipful Merchants Brethren assert authority over this market from the hours of dawn until dusk and take a tithe of all sales during that time. The Brethren's collectors, the Hamrabi, enforce the levies with godless Northern mercenaries and sand trolls. Accordingly, the Souk is invariably crowded during the night, and the thieves find rich pickings.

Djellaba is the one of the three original districts of the City. Covering the eastern slopes, it overlooks the orange sands of the desert. The district has many dusty plazas, where the Nomadic peoples camp. Dervishes dance in these plazas, to their prayer-songs and drums. Many pilgrims from the southern lands come here for blessings and to dance the sacred dances, in search of healing or forgiveness, and leave pages of the Book fluttering like flags from the ropes of the nomads tents.

The sand lich Apraxus holds court in the silent halls below the Spire of Zathar, gathering power to himself. His masked agents comb the Souk each night, seeking word of powerful magics that he can turn to his own purposes. Apraxus claims lordship over Al Hadras during the night hours - a claim that is disputed by the other two Caliph-pretenders. In the past this has led to widespread violence, but in recent years an uneasy detente has settled over the city.

The origin's of Apraxus are somewhat mysterious - the Pakzadi say he was a priest of the goddess who has denied her her due (his death), others say he was and is a great sorcerer and his supporters say he is a Pharaoh, one of the kings of the lost desert kingdoms. Apraxus remains, as ever, silent.

# ¿ Nov 10, 2012 02:58

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

My Lovely Horse posted:

My campaign's main antagonist right now is a wizard by the name of Walter. Walter used to be a good guy back in the day - 1500 years ago he helped save the world from destruction by Tharizdun, but in return the gods granted him a wish, and that's when the trouble started, because he wished for eternal life. Present day, Walter cannot die, and at this point, lord knows he's tried. His mind can't handle it, and he's aligned himself with Tharizdun to further his plan of destroying the world - if that doesn't do Walter in, nothing will.

I really like this plot, by the way. It actually makes the terrible EVIL DUDE WANTS DESTROY WORLD plot work, by making it personal.

You could even make Walter quite pleasant, just sick and tired of being afuckinglive.

quote:

I guess what I'm asking is, how can I show these guys things that tend to come with experience - the idea of a game universe that operates independently from characters (if their character has work in three hours and they spend four hours doing something, they're an hour late for work) - the idea that if I describe a room, there are tons of things I haven't mentioned and they can ask me if those things are there if they want to use them - the fact that small things may come up later - the fact that it's okay to say 'no, my dude doesn't want to do what this NPC says, and won't do it just because its you who is saying it'.

Any advice for dealing with new players in general is appreciated.

If possible can you set the game in your home town, where you're all living? I did that for my first Mage game years ago and it did wonders for immersion.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Nov 13, 2012

# ¿ Nov 13, 2012 11:20

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Double.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Nov 13, 2012

# ¿ Nov 13, 2012 11:28

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Xaander posted:

Oh poo poo, I really like that idea. Hand over control at the "You are standing over the monster's corpse" point, and then they get the call that the authorities caught the guy. If I did the Fleshprinting Orphan adventure next, would it be a bad call to use the same station for both? In that adventure, the Orphan lives on an outlying private estate ship, but the station would be "downtown" to him. He won't have experienced or maybe even heard of the Frankenstein fiasco, but the rest of the station will, and that might make gumshoeing easier or harder. That way they get to deal with the consequences of their actions on the Frankenstein mission. Or would that be introducing too many gears and levers?

I think don't multiply locations, at least to start. Use the same station.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2012 03:36

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

P.d0t posted:

Dunno if this is exactly the best thread to post this question in, but I was wanting some advice about a boss fight I want to run in 4e D&D. I'd be looking at early-paragon levels, and I used "MM3 on a business card" as a guideline, then stacked some stuff on I thought would be cool.

1. Is the damage a bit too high?
2. How much HP should this guy have? I am waffling between "elite" and "solo" levels
3. Would threatening reach be overkill?

At-Will Power (melee 2)
Target: one creature
Hit: 4d6+10 damage, the target is marked (as Fighter's Combat Challenge) and an enemy within melee 2 takes 5 damage
Miss: 5 damage
Crit: +4d6+2d12 and the target is knocked prone
Special: +5 damage to prone targets

Opportunity Attack (uses At-Will power)
+5 to Attack
Interrupts movement (as Fighter's Combat Superiority)
Can be used to Repel Charge (immediate interrupt) as the PHB3 feat

Encounter Power (immediate interrupt)
Trigger: an enemy makes a melee attack against you
Target: the attacking creature
Hit: 4d6 damage, and the target takes a -5 penalty to the triggering attack

Encounter Power (immediate reaction)
Trigger: an attack bloodies you
Target: one enemy in melee 2
Hit: 8d6+10, and the target is knocked prone
Miss: Half
Rage/Stance/Effect: Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +5 power bonus to damage rolls, and when you hit a target with a melee attack it is knocked prone

Stats @ Lvl 11:
AC: 27
HP: 270 (elite) 540 (solo)
Attack: +15 vs. AC
NADs: 23
Speed: 6

I'm no expert on what the numbers should be, but he looks decently scary. I approve of big damage in 4e; it makes the game sing.

Though he's very melee... maybe give him a long ranged 'get over here' encounter power that pulls and knocks prone a single target?

Oh and give him threatening reach. You can always 'forget' to apply it if the party are getting too monstered.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2012 07:22

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Whybird posted:

A standard enemy is about equal to 4 minions, so the first setup you describe will be a match for 6-7 PCs, while the second will be a match for 3-4 or so. (This all assumes your monsters are about the same level as your PCs.)

Myself I like matching up solos with a bunch of minions, to keep the battlefield busy and help him flank PCs. One of the biggest disadvantages a solo has is that it has a lot of difficulty controlling the layout of the fight when it's outnumbered,so large numbers of minions help rectify that a bit.

The other thing to remember with solos is to use their limited resources (action points, per-encounter powers) at the earliest opportunity. PCs can still take them down scarily quickly, so make every moment the solo's alive count.

IME 4e overrates the significance of minions, it's more like 6 minions to a monster. Minions are fantastic, feel free to use great heaping handfuls of them if it fits the fiction. Particularly widely spaced archer minions, as they're hard to take down in a hurry and deal out some decent damage.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 17, 2012

# ¿ Dec 17, 2012 21:24

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

homullus posted:

Too many minions make the opening rounds of combat draggggggggg, though, which is a reason to not use so many, or if you plan to use many, not use them all at the same time.

True.

An inexhaustible fountain of minions - where they'll just keep coming unless the PCs do something about it - is one way round that.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2012 22:28

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Sam. posted:

A variation on that idea:

The party walks past an elderly hobo on the street. He's talking to a piece of rock about how he's lost his job and his house and his wife and his children and everything, but he'll get through it because he still has his dad, and he doesn't know what he'd do without him. The artifact is a family heirloom, and he thinks it's his father, who's actually dead (his death could also be a plot hook, if you want). It reminds him of better times, and without it he has nothing to live for. If the party tries to take it, he'll try to stop them from taking his father away from him, but he's old and feeble.

If they let him live, he breaks down. Maybe he jumps in front of a car. Maybe he steals a gun and goes on a shooting spree a few days later.

If they kill him, they just murdered a homeless man who hadn't done anything bad to anyone, though you could argue they were putting him out of his misery.

Hrm. 'You lose/you lose' plotting is kinda gauche. Not that I haven't done it, but still.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2012 09:13

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Make her sweet, and loving, and kind.

Then twist that.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2013 07:50

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Project1 posted:

Yeah, I know to read up on a particular region, as tribes/cultural groups differ in a continent or area despite how outsiders might see it. I guess I'm just concerned that I should be doing more than just acknowledging the major differences between groups and not treating them like ignorant savages. Perhaps I'm overthinking this, though.

You are. Start with stereotypes, then mess with them is the right order.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2013 23:58

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

ZearothK posted:

So, I'm dealing with a bit of GM burn-out. I was running two games, one a long-running Rogue Trader campaign, and the other a more experimental World of Darkness game. I first quit the latter one because it was a lot of work to prepare for the sessions and whatever inspiration I had for it was gone, so that was that.

A few days ago I decided to give up on the 40K game as well, even though it is a scenario my group and I are used to playing in and ideas come organically. I am not sure why, I've just been tired of late and wanted less things on my mind. I still have an itch to run games, as it is an entertaining social and creative experience, but well, I don't know. Maybe just taking some time off and focusing on the rest of my life will refresh me for the hobby. Anyways, I'm just wondering what other GMs have done when going through a similar burn out.

I've been GMing the Mongoose Traveller sandbox game, Pirates of Drinax. It's ace - you need to put a bit of effort up front into tracking information, but the players basically write the story themselves. And you can offload the tracking of crew, fuel and cargo on to them, too. My prep for a game is ten minutes sketching out a space pirate asteroid base or whatever.

I know whereof you speak, though - I have gone from intensely plotted D&D 4e game, to more loosely plotted (but still with an arc) Eclipse Phase game, to completely loosey goosey Traveller. WAyyyyy more relaxing. And not any less fun for anyone.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2013 21:02

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Danger-Pumpkin posted:

Hey, Ive got some serious-rear end GMing problems, and like some advice.

The first problem is a easier to deal with (I think) so I'll throw it right out there; I am a sucky mapper. I do great making big huge political maps of my over detailed world-scale setting, but I can't ever make a city map that I'm happy with, and I am TERRIBLE at doing interiors. The problem isn't the cities so much, since there isn't usually a need to map those out in their entirety (I just like having them, because I'm a pedant) but the interiors are a huge problem.

Dungeon design is easy, because dungeons don't have to be believable places for the most part. I mean, they're mostly excavated, and so they don't follow the same rules as a castle or mansion. My problem comes along when I need a castle or a mansion. I'm running a game that's based on espionage, spying, and light assassination, so I need fancy palaces and kingly castles for the players to sneak into, but even after studying castle floorplans, modern mansions, and maps from videogames about these same things, I can't design something which isn't overly huge, redundant, and obnoxiously symetrical to save my life. I think part of the problem is that I can't effectively DM on-the-fly, so I want to have things ready just in case players go off the rails (which they always do,) but I also can't think of ways to fill every square of castle the PCs might wander into. I'm coming at this the wrong way, but I don't know how else to approach it. Anybody got some tips? A painless way of doing this quickly? Or at least a random building generator?

My other problem is less straight-forward, and more than a bit e/n so I'll save it for another post.

Get Zak Smith's Vornheim. While Zak has a chequered history on web fora, I've never seen anyone criticise Vornheim as a city building guide.

For interiors, just picture a vaguely relevant building you've been in IRL and copy that. Done.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2013 08:50

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Eldercain posted:

Alright, so I'm about to GM my first campaign and I've got a question.

We're gonna be running 4e, and most of my players myself included have at least some degree of 3/3.5 experience so we're not totally in the dark about how D&D works. The thing is, I always found a lot of the systems in 3 to be kind of meh feeling, and when I read the 4e books it took a lot of that meh out. Combat especially just sounds more interesting especially at low levels, and that's good because combat being boring is no good.

So my players are more interested in exploring and politicking and the like, but they're also expecting that at some point there will be fighting because eventually everyone wants to beat someone up. I'm going to try not to do the traditional "hey go to this cave because hey it's a dungeon!" and I think I can work it without needing them to spend 3 hours fighting in connected rooms etc. I have big plans for the story, and I also am perfectly happy if they ignore what I have set up (although evil plots that are ignored still end up being executed etc).

This is all well and good and everyone's on board, but as I'm 1) a new GM and 2) we're all new to 4e, I'd kind of like to either run a short adventure or setup 1-2 example fights that we can spend a session running through so that I can familiarize myself with the system and get a handle on how powerful encounters of various levels relative to party level are. I'm getting pushback on doing this as they want to dive right in, but I don't want to screw up the very beginning by making it too easy/hard and am generally kind of uncomfortable without at least some kind of practice. Should I just not worry about it? I know they are more interested in the story/world, but that doesn't mean that the fights should be badly tuned, right? Or can I really just throw any combination of monsters into my nth level fight as long as it fits the budget?

I read about the starting fight being a brawl and that idea is interesting to me and I could probably work it in, but is that enough?

And as a second thing, I only have 3 players right now (trying to find a 4th but not going to sacrafice our consistent days for someone who might kill the campaign with flakiness), how big an impact does that have on encounters? I've read what the dm book says about it, but was hoping to hear about it from someone with experience with smaller parties.

I'd consider ditching xp right out of the gate unless your players really want it. Just agree that everyone will level up at an appropriate interval. That way you don't have to worry about throwing grindy fights at them just to get them to the next level.

Another option would be to be really free with plot/quest awards (which are explicitly in the game), it depends on what gets your players engines running.

The other key DM point is to not be afraid of being brutal in the tactical game. 4e shines when the players are really pressed, so try and crush them horribly. While not being a complete dick, of course - lots of damage is good and fine, loads of stun and daze and domination is not. When I was DMing I was constantly worried about being too nasty and it somehow always worked out fine.

That said save your really nasty fights for when you have an outcome for a fight other than 'TPK, all dead' - if you know the worst that will happen is they get captured you can be a lot more intense.

Eldercain posted:

The 4e skill system is garbage.

Skill challenges are actually neat, but they did a terrible job of explaining them. The way they worked best for us is that I'd go round the table saying STORY BEAT 1! WHAT DO YOU DO?! and the first player says 'uh, poo poo I'll try and use skill x to accomplish y - roll, succeed!'. That moves the story along and you go to the next player and let them continue the story from where it just got to as a result of the first player's action. You do this until you get enough successes (which means they get what they wanted and you've told a cool story doing it) or they get three failures and fail amusingly (they don't get what they wanted but you've still told a cool story). It's basically proto Dungeon World, used this way.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Mar 28, 2013

# ¿ Mar 28, 2013 00:59

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

God Of Paradise posted:

How's the old Tomb of Horrors module?

I'm thinking about running it once my players gain a couple of more levels. Have a major plot point artifact to introduce and figure the Tomb of Horrors would be a good place to put it, plus, running the old 1st edition Ravenloft module went over well, despite a couple of poorly designed puzzles...

So I'm curious. Is Tomb of Horrors just going to TPK everyone? I'm using Pathfinder and 3.5 Monster Manuals to translate the game to Pathfinder as we play, it's not hard for me, but do you guys think ToH is fun? Or just an unfair, unfun, horrible horrible experience that usually ends in cheap deaths?

Hahahaha that's hilarious. I'm running it on Sunday, was just coming here for advice!

And yeah it's cheap and stupid as hell but so are kung fu movies and they're still fun. The mood you want is 20% good natured competition, 10% faux macho DM kayfabe and about 70% general amused curiosity about who is going to die horribly next.

But I'd strongly advise against using an existing party. Use premades, and frame it as a shared hallucination or something because otherwise your players will stab you.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2013 08:49

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

homullus posted:

A lot of bad adventures are more fun if you houserule them and jury-rig them and make your own game around them while waiting for the planets to align perfectly for them. Or you could just, like, play or make ones that are better to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal, the module is "famous", and then your players can experience it first-hand (through the careful fun-scaffolding around it). I just don't think it's even a good example of a good "old school" D&D module.

I played it pretty straight, just gave each player two characters and went for it. Was a blast. With the single precondition that everyone understands dying is part of the fun, it is a Good Module. :colbert:

E: though i wouldn't have said that before I ran it. There's a lot of wiley smarts baked into it that are not apparent on a quick read

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Apr 17, 2013

# ¿ Apr 17, 2013 11:09

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

homullus posted:

I was thinking about this the other day. What AD&D/OSR is to D&D 4e, the original Tomb of Horrors is to AD&D. Tomb of Horrors has more in common with the computer adventure games that were just coming out around then (1978, around the time Scott Adams was writing games, and just before Sierra's graphical ones) than it does with AD&D, and therefore sets very different expectations. When I say it's a bad module, I am being hyperbolic. It's a bad fit for RPGs as they are conventionally understood today, and was a bad fit for AD&D campaign play even at its original publication. Tomb of Horrors is a string of set-piece encounters in the D&D tradition, but the majority are crippling or lethal, and trial-and-error is the only way to avoid most of those (aside from luck).

I can absolutely see how running it would be really fun, in the same way that Paranoia is really fun but not suited to campaign play either. The difference is that Paranoia does not inherit a different set of expectations from the parent game, and Tomb of Horrors does.

Yeah, that's fair enough. It's definitely sui generis.

Similar, in fact to the fourthcore style arena challenges we've been doing in 4e. You get a party, enter a large arena and have a set of tasks to accomplish as random monster generators spew minions and elites and regular monsters into the arena. The arena is essentially 'programmed' - monsters operate on simple rules for who they target - so you don't need a DM. It's fun as hell, and generally ends with the party eking out a skin of the teeth win or drowning under literal waves of unearthly chittering death. Last time we played we won with around 40 monsters still on the board.

My friend wrote up the rules, I'll see if he minds me posting them here.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2013 23:25

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

P.d0t posted:

I take this in completely the other direction:

Spend time fleshing out the pivotal NPCs to the Nth detail, so that they are relatable, emotional, people and multi-purpose instead of throw-away cardboard cutouts with 1 paragraph of quest text. My goal is to get the players/characters as personally/emotionally involved in the setting and story as possible (by giving them examples to model themselves off of or relate to), because IMHO character drama is what makes for truly great stories.

The setting needs only be a framework to hang the main story arc events upon; that way, you can build whatever minutia into it post-facto, to service the goals/desires of the PCs and make meaningful, desirable story hooks that facilitate character growth and development.

I probably sound like a

I think the best way to do it is to have lots of very broad brush npcs, which get painted with finer strokes as the players get to know them.

So an npc might be

Bonce Slopford, Baker, bald/sweaty, nasal voice.

That's a memorable character in 7 words. If he never plays a part in the story - win! If he does play a part in the story, say by baking silver pennies into tiny buns then using them as slingstones to defeat the Werewolf of Vampiretown - win win! Go Bonce you sweaty legend!

One trouble with a huge long backstory is that unless you're a master actor it's just not going to come across except as (tedious) guarded ambiguity. And if you are a master actor, then you can convey the impression of a huge backstory with an inflection or an expression.

Another one is that you're closing off elements of the future story based on what you've already decided for the character.

I know that making characters is an entertaining game in its own right, but even if that's the way you roll I'd strongly recommend slapping a seven word description on top of that once you're done, because that's who your characters are going to meet.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2013 23:36

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Rocket Ace posted:

Giant Monster as Force of Nature

I'm looking for advice about an introductory session I'm thinking of.

The system is Pathfinder, but I'm not really concerned about mechanics (per se), more for general concepts.

The premise is that all the heroes are being thrown into a dungeon of sorts (punishment for crimes) and if they make it out alive, they are absolved of all wrongdoings.

I want to set up the plot and encounters in a format that teaches the players all of the rules gradually.

Example: room 1: how to do skill tests (and help each other with skill tests, room 2: Reflex saves, room 3: Will saves etc...

My players are expecting a typical dungeon with minor goons (giant rats etc...) and minor traps.

BUT, my plan is to instead have it that the dungeon contains a HUGE giant monster. In this case, a Giant Anaconda.

Each encounter with it will not take form as regular combat, but as challenges.

Some that I've thought of: the giant serpent has smashed the floor beneath them: they must climb to safety (skill tests). Another is that the monster's head gets stuck in a doorway and they all get to take swipes at it (learning how to fight and dodge without extreme lethality).

In the end, they'll kill the horrible thing by some creative teamwork (collaborating to taunt it and drop a huge rock on its head or something).

What do you think? Could this work as a campaign intro? Anyone done anything similar?

This sounds fantastic. Have read Dungeon World? Because that sounds like a Dungeon World fight, and familiarising yourself with the DW approach and the GM moves could really help.

Coincidentally that's also the best way I've found to do 4e skill challenges, just moving round the group presenting challenges and complicating solutions.

# ¿ May 5, 2013 01:29

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

I'd just add a suggestion that you leave some flexibility in your scripting - more 'here is a bunch of things that could happen' rather than a rigid flow chart of challenges. And threaten the PCs so they sometimes have to make choices between protecting each other or damaging the beast.

# ¿ May 5, 2013 04:19

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

BrainGlitch posted:

I'm running a Sci-Fi campaign based off of D20 future and some smatterings of other source info I can find. Trouble is, I'm having a really hard time getting myself as into it without having set up a really competent backstory. I'm looking for good settings/adventures (doesn't matter if they're d20, I just need the story) but when Traveller has 130 pages just for Starports it gets kinda daunting.

Check out Pirates of Drinax from Mongoose. It's a free campaign, they've done four of ten of the modules so far. It's a fantastic scifi sandbox setting.

# ¿ May 5, 2013 20:29

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Guesticles posted:

Warm up. Try doing some writing exercises - PbP sort of things, have your players write letters, etc. These give your players more time to sit and think about what to say and how to say it so it should come more naturally when they start talking.

As GM, I find it helps to visualize the character I'm currently playing. But even then, I often break down like you do - I end up summarizing dialogue.

Between game emails are pretty fantastic. Play out a scene or two over the week between games.

# ¿ May 6, 2013 23:35

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

God Of Paradise posted:

Just have a different voice, temperament and quirks for every major NPC.

Yes this means one NPC will be an old-timey news reel reporter and another will be a bad Liam Neeson impersonation, and another will be Terry Jones dressed in drag. But if you go with your gut instinct it'll be fine. It might be easier for me since I am used to performing and being silly in front of crowds. But the real thing that will help you to do dialogue in your game is just getting over that initial fear of public embarrassment through just saying gently caress it, and doing it.

But trust me. Having weird in game conversations as part of the game is a lot of fun. If the party has to talk their way through something it can lead to a lot of great moments and, at times, hilarity.

This is great advice - an NPC should be a really simple caricature. Use a movie star or cartoon character, and let what they do in the game build their actual character. (Homer Simpson as tyrannical dictator, Mr Burns as innkeeper). And while you should never fall in love with them pay attention when your players fall in love with them.

# ¿ May 7, 2013 04:44

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

I wouldn't worry too much about balance, tbh. Just amp up the monsters to compensate, if you need to.

# ¿ May 9, 2013 02:13

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Skyrim has a wonderful mod called Frostfall that completely changes the way you view the outdoors, and makes things like icy rivers actually sort of terrifying. Getting that feel into 4e would help get what you're looking for.

To achieve this, first cut back on recovery of healing surges (maybe con bonus + 3 per night?), and make a couple of disease tracks. One for actual disease and one for fatigue. Make it so being at the top gives minor bonuses, and tune it so it's not devastating to be moderately fatigued and tired, but have the very bottom be death.

I'd also ditch xp (level up every few sessions when they've achieved some notable goal) and use inherent bonuses, as that skips two of 4e's key flaws.

# ¿ May 13, 2013 07:58

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Razorwired posted:

I'm honestly surprised when I play with a 4e group that uses XP anymore. I just figured everyone agreed on "If you had to work late and miss the session, missing the session is the punishment, not making your Elf fall behind because the other Elves earned their powerups."

We played Rolemaster for years, which has the most Byzantine xp system imaginable. You get xp for every point of damage you take and deliver, each critical, each mile travelled, each skill used. Took about an hour to work it out, once every few sessions. One day we worked out that we invariably levelled each 4-5 sessions regardless of what happened in the game.

Just like that, a little light bulb went off over our heads.

# ¿ May 13, 2013 13:12

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Rocket Ace posted:

Different play styles, I guess. For me, the number-crunching actually prohibits creativity. But I can understand the appeal (calculating point values for Warhammer armies has it's charm).

I think he was joking :ssh:

It's an interesting point though - there is a genuine pleasure in making all the numbers fit just so, but it's a pleasure that tends to belong to people with a lot of time to fill up. These days I want to get to the serious fun quicker, so I'm DMing games with minimal prep, using character builder, playing Dungeon World.

Back to the fatigue/disease tracks, while complexity could easily get out of hand, I think it's got real potential. I'd introduce them one at a time, so fatigue first and disease once they've got that in hand. To prevent disease simply being nullified by the cure disease ritual without being a complete rear end in a top hat, you could make it so that ritual needs a particular rare (but obtainable) component. Or just let them cast the ritual, there's probably enough assholery to go around with these systems.

Tangentially I once had a subplot around just that, where the party were hired to steal a bunch of this material in a plague-struck city so their employer could monopolise it and jack up the prices. Similarly with fatigue in a sandboxy setting, I can see players getting into fights to attain food/shelter which is kind of awesome.

Spitballing what the fatigue track might look like, bonuses/penalties could accrue to, in descending order: Initiative, skills, damage, healing surges, to hit (to hit is arguable, since lowering that risks making the game really unfun - maybe just a -1 at the second lowest status point on the track?).

Things that would raise it would be food, warm clothes, shelter, rest. Lowering it would be fights, lack of food, getting wet, lack of sleep. Maybe to keep it simple just give a +1 or a -1 to each, and add up at the end of each day?

Having reread all those :words:

, I'm wondering if a separate disease track is worth the hassle. Maybe just add it into the list of things that damage fatigue and let people cure it with a ritual, it's mainly for flavour.

P.d0t posted:

So, I think I hate my players. Or maybe all players.

Suffice it to say, I keep going to them for feedback about what they want to do in the campaign and about their characters' goals and stuff and I reliably get no responses. Now I've just had a few people drop out (leaving 4 in total), but I have a handful more who have expressed interest in joining.

With that many new people, I figured it might be worth considering starting a new game instead of trying to indoctrinate all the newcomers into the campaign/setting, soooo... I asked the existing players what they wanted to do; half of them replied with a resounding "I'm good with whatever! "

So I started asking the new players what their preferences are; half of them responded, and gave the same answer as above

Should I take this as a hint that no one gives a gently caress and call the whole thing off?
Or am I just being a big dumb baby?

Nah, they just want you to do the thinking for them. Amp it up and start them in a burning city under siege, and get the connections on the fly, storygame style.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 13, 2013

# ¿ May 13, 2013 23:34

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

GOONSOURCE YOUR GAME

Ok, so we've got pirates, in a burning city under siege, trying to get to their ship at the docks before the Emperor's flagship rounds the point or the city walls fall! Each character has a thing they need out of the city - what is it! Each character has one thing they love in the city! What is it! Who is Count Kevin? What or why is the Golden Widget???

Keep 'em coming fellas!

(I would totally play this game)

# ¿ May 14, 2013 00:53

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Mimir posted:

Change "Golden Widget" to the eternally indescribable Sampo and I'm sold.

IT IS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED SIRE

quote:

In Finnish mythology, the Sampo or Sammas was a magical artifact of indeterminate type constructed by Ilmarinen that brought good fortune to its holder. When the Sampo was stolen, it is said that Ilmarinen's homeland fell upon hard times and sent an expedition to retrieve it, but in the ensuing battle it was smashed and lost at sea.

The Sampo has been interpreted in many ways: a world pillar or world tree, a compass or astrolabe, a chest containing a treasure, a Byzantine coin die, a decorated Vendel period shield, a Christian relic, etc. In the Kalevala, compiler L�nnrot interpreted it to be a quern or mill of some sort that made flour, salt, and gold out of thin air.

(That is amazing, I've never heard of that before - thanks!)

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 02:10 on May 14, 2013

# ¿ May 14, 2013 02:07

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Paolomania posted:

I'm a fan of presenting 3 or 4 DW style "dangers" on the current "front" and letting the party RP out deciding which burning building to run into.

THINK FAST HOTSHOT!

1. the city is burning down!
2. the count is hunting you because you are pirates!
3. you need to find the ineffable Sampo!
4. the emperor's flagship is rounding the point!

Throw in a sketch map of the city and a couple of encounters (flaming camels springs to mind for some reason) and I'd run that in a heartbeat.

# ¿ May 14, 2013 05:50

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Tendales posted:

No lie, I'm taking notes from this discussion for my upcoming Edge of the Empire game. Replace city with space station, replace flagship with star destroyer, and replace sampo with SM-P0 droid. Let's rock this.

Yeah gently caress it I'm gonna have to work this into my Mongoose Traveller sandbox, Pirates of Drinax. I'll report back.

# ¿ May 14, 2013 09:18

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Unless your players enjoy puzzles, I'd just avoid them. Or give them another (more difficult/dangerous) way through.

# ¿ May 16, 2013 01:26

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

palecur posted:

I'd make this a skill challenge based on Insight, Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy as primaries. Skill challenges work best when you deviate from the prescribed framework -- for instance, I had a skill challenge in my Eberron game where the parties' enemies had gimmicked a magical sky elevator the party was in so it was just free falling down Sharn. I put a tower of poker chips in front of the GM screen and each time a PC did something in the skill challenge, I took some chips away to mark the decreasing distance-to-ground. A critical failure made the chips start decreasing two at a time as the botched repair brought up the magic fields -- in the wrong direction, making the car accelerate downwards. Surges were lost as another failure induced a tumble in the elevator car and folks got knocked about (Acrobatics or Athletics to mitigate).

Think about the in-game fiction, then find ways to communicate that urgency to your table. I'd go with a stack-of-chips model here as well, to represent the room's tension. Just to be a bastard, I'd also have a d6 behind the screen that represents how far off the visible number is from the actual number. Whichever side is doing better on their Insight rolls knows the real number. As the tension rises, you could call for characters to make Wisdom checks to keep control. Is that guy scratching...or is he reaching for a hidden dagger? Oh poo poo he's really got a dagger in there we got to shank him now! The players can do stuff like use Diplomacy at their own party to keep the highly-strung (low-wis) combat machine from flipping out, or deliberately play to destabilize the other side.

For something like a negotiation scene I'd skip a formal turn order and just have people declare actions as they occur, then roll when appropriate. The party face can be delivering a bold speech (roll Diplo or Intimidate as suitable) while the rogue makes sure knives are at the ready while appearing harmless (Stealth, Bluff). In the mean time, the Fighter takes a half-step closer to the other side's bruiser so she can knock a wrist out of alignment should the bruiser lunge (Athletics). Each statement or action affects the tension level, so if the Fighter's positioning gets noticed, definitely add a chip or two to the tower, and if the party face makes a good Intimidate or Diplomacy roll, take a chip off the tower.

At some tension threshold that you deem good, talking time stops and fight music starts. Don't tell the table what your magic number is; just tell them it's getting close and someone's going to snap soon. If you're calling for Wisdom composure rolls for the PCs, they'll get the idea on their own.

Alternatively: Jenga!

# ¿ Jun 11, 2013 22:18

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

StashAugustine posted:

I was thinking of running a Fallout-themed game. Does anyone have any ideas for a system?

Lizard from rpg.net has an excellent WIP Gamma World conversion for 4e D&D, though that skews wackier than Fallout.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2013 23:34

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

P.d0t posted:

I'm looking for some DM'ing advice for 4e; the correct answer might be "you're a horrible person " so I'll preface by saying that.

Generally speaking, I hate prepping for fights; they always end up feeling really boring, and that may have everything to do with how I do it, so I'll expand on that.

As a DM, I don't like having to do fights with lots of at-level or below-level monsters who are just punching bags for the players; their defenses suck so they always get hit and tend to die too easily (which feels unsatisfying for me) and I hate having to track a dozen monster HPs. I much prefer keeping the fights to roughly "5 on 5" but with stronger monsters. The problem with that is these monsters have like double the HP of the players, so the mop-up phase bullshit becomes even more magnified.

e: An answer might be to homebrew monsters with high attack and defenses but lower their HP to more reasonable levels, but then I need to know how to correctly assign XP values to them.

Minions seem basically only useful if they're spread all across the map and generally only ranged attackers, since the party includes a Psion who goes Static Mote-happy all day errry day. 2-hit minions as a rule rather than the exception might help, but I guess I rarely find minions fun or helpful.

That's another thing I should touch on; I hate drawing maps. It seems like no matter what I draw, the terrain ends up being fairly irrelevant (or else the players use forced movement to somehow trivialize the fight), to the point where I'm ready to just say gently caress it and do TotM. I can also usually run 3 combats per session (if all we're doing is combat) and I don't want to erase and draw 3 maps per session.

I always write down monster powers in short form, either in excel or just on paper+clipboard, yet I consistently forget to use That Special Thing they have that makes them interesting/challenging (even though I've written it down) so the fights become even more dull. Adding a more varied Team Monster would probably only worsen this problem for me (even more special things to try and track).

I think the style of fight I want, is one that takes a long time to resolve (most of the session), but is always interesting and doesn't devolve into trading at-wills or hoping a power recharges; something I can make dramatically important or work story/character considerations and villain-banter into, rather than just an exercise in level-grinding. This might be a case of "tough poo poo" but I hate adding in more enemies mid-fight or toughening them up when the PCs are having too easy a go of it. I also need fights to be quicker to compile on the fly and still be interesting.

That's another question I have: what's a good way to do "recurring villains?" I have 1 so far and am thinking of adding others, but how can I do a guy who always gets away, without it feeling like bullshit to the players? Is this even possible to simulate in 4e?

tl;dr Basically I'm just really frustrated with the combat system. At this point the only idea I have to deal with it is to get someone else be the "Combat DM" and just focus my efforts on character/story/plot considerations (which is what I really care about.)

My standard answer is FLOODS AND FLOODS OF MINIONS NO SERIOUSLY I MEAN LIKE DOZENS, but you don't like those. And you've sort of pre-emptively ruled out a lot of the possible fixes. I hate to say it, but maybe the system is just not for you?

If that's not an option, maybe make sure there's always something happening as well as the fight - a time limit, or changing conditions (easier crits on bloodied enemies?), a device that has to be shut down, a prisoner that has to be rescued. And have monsters/villains surrender occasionally, or run away. You can also pump up the damage and cut down the hit points - monsters that are loving terrifying but drop easily work very well with 4e.

More broadly - consider ditching xp. While you can still use the encounter guidelines, just have your dudes level up every few sessions. You should never feel you have to throw in a combat to give the players xp.

As for recurring villains, just make sure you don't cheat. If they die they die! You can always make another, who will be strongly motivated to not die in the same way. I had what was intended to be a recurring villain, he was all sinister and mysterious and threatening and the party tracked him down and bushwhacked him mercilessly. So his replacement was genial, and jolly, and still accomplished exactly the same things including tricking trapping and ambushing them. But they liked him so it was ok!

Assuming you want a villain get out of jail free card, I'd do it as a very visible item that he expends when he escapes. So next time they see him they can either see he doesn't have it (which means they achieved something) or know that they have to take it off him if they want to stop him running away (knowledge is power!)

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jun 12, 2013

# ¿ Jun 12, 2013 23:45

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

P.d0t posted:

This is the logjam I'm having; as a player I love 4e.
But as a DM, I'm finding I just want to throw this poo poo out the window.

Like, is my idea of "the DM should have fun in combat, too" just wrong? Or am I having fun wrong, or something?
I get that the players are supposed to win all the time unless they're jacking around and not trying, so that's not the problem I'm having. But, is there any way to make it interesting on my end without it being unfair/impossible for the players?

Interesting problem. I'd put it to your players, maybe? As the DM in 4e combat you're sort of the hyperplayer, and are in the position of trying to outwit them all which can be stressful - but if you're not having fun then it's not going to work long term. Giving the more algorithmic monsters to your players to run is a definite possibility (charge nearest, use encounter, use atwills).

As a preliminary though I'd try for some fights that are briefer and scarier for your players. Double the addon damage for all attacks (so 3d8+7 becomes 3d8+14) and turn the hitpoints down to 75% should do that without breaking too much.

Also, don't forget how resilient 4e characters actually are. How often do your players go down to 0? When I was DMing it was a rare fight I didn't get the fighter on the ground at least once, sometimes multiple times. Having at least one death save being rolled is an excellent aim for a fight - but no one died in the course of the campaign.

Edit: Yeah, the encounter/xp guidelines are built around modest player skill/optimisation and a bunch of fights in a single day. You can go +2 or +3 comfortably if you make sure not to let the monster defences get too high.

Also vvv Dark Horse advice is good advice vvv

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jun 13, 2013

# ¿ Jun 13, 2013 00:15

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

You have a very precise set of requirements - longer, but not grindy, but without requiring prep or managing complicated abilities. These are kind of contradictory. Bluntly, if you want to stick with 4e while accomplishing these things then you'll need to be more in tune with the system.

Failing that, maybe make monsters more the environment rather than the goal? So the interest comes from achieving goals in a hostile environment rather than murdering the whole map to death.

If you want to add a new ability without needing to crunch numbers then just look through similar levelled monsters and grab an ability then reskin it. You mentioned you are worried about being overpowered for your party - how close to the wind do you sail? How often do you put PCs down into death save territory?

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jun 13, 2013

# ¿ Jun 13, 2013 01:28

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

P.d0t posted:

I had 2 archers with level-appropriate everything, and a recharge-6 power that created a 3x3 "fire hazard" that did "Page42" damage if you started your turn in it (half for passing through)
In addition, I had 1 melee boss guy with roughly level-appropriate defenses, but attack and damage of [party level + 7]. He had an encounter whirlwind ability where he could shift 3 squares and hit everything adjacent to his path; his regular ability did damage + push 3 + prone.

How much XP should I give out for that? gently caress knows.
Is it a balanced encounter? Does it fit within the XP budget? I have no idea.

I think you're overthinking it. They'll never know. If you think they should get more xp, give them some more (or ditch xp completely and level up every few sessions, seriously it's the best). And if your PCs aren't constantly dying, you're not being too harsh.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2013 02:42

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Tomero_the_Great posted:

I'm thinking of running my players through The Tomb of Horrors, but I'm not sure which version. We play D&D 4th Ed.

The plan is that next extended rest the players will find themselves in a shared dream inside the famous tomb. I've already asked them (without telling them why) to bring updated and current character sheets of every character they've ever played in this campaign or any other as well as any build they ever threw together in the character builder and wanted to test out. I made it clear to them that more is more.

I want to run them through The Tomb because it's iconic and it'll be fun to let off a bit of steam in a dreamworld with no consequences. I'm hoping for something really, really deadly so players will be swapping characters in and out, Paranoia style. In our main campaign they're always far too careful, but here dying will be rewarded with restored dailies, action points, etc, as well as the opportunity to swiss-army in the perfect character for a given situation, so goofball suicidal attitudes will hopefully be encouraged.

Apparently there's something like 4 versions? Which one do you folks suggest I use?

The OG 1e version is surprisingly rules free, tbh. You'll just need to stat out a few fights. I ran it a couple of months back and it's fun as hell. There's a lot of design smarts encoded into it that you don't see until you play it.

Still a horrifying meat grinder, don't get me wrong, but there are ways around all the traps, particularly once you've grokked the Tomb's gleefully unfair internal logic. If you want to be nice you could make the save or die poison on all the spikes in all the traps just take off 1d8 healing surges, but I say go for broke.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2013 05:00

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# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 01:51

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Sounds good to me. Doesn't presume any player actions, which is always the biggest DM trap.

From an interesting NPC standpoint I'd probably try and make the Mayor like the Mayor in Buffy. Sort of bizarrely sympathetic and friendly rather than moustache twirling. And introduce the Vampire early rather than late, as a character rather than a plot device. Maybe he could warn the PCs about the orcs?

Hm... Jocular friendly vampire overlord...

# ¿ Jun 14, 2013 21:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The GM Advice thread: Killing your players quickly

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