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just fanning the flames a little: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/34709834/m/964003920041 Might not accomplish much because Ars is a little boring but what the hell.
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Jun 30, 2009 10:19
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You'd think the world had learned from Dan Lirette. 
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Jun 30, 2009 12:14
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 Next time, pick on someone your own tiny-baby size!
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Jun 30, 2009 12:17
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spanky the dolphin fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 12:26
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Ensign_Ricky posted:Holy crap. Ok, so let's say someone is in vitro with the gene for Lou Gehrig's disease, do we kill them off? Or do we allow them to grow to maturity to become someone like Stephen Hawking? In Trig's case he's lucky that he was born into an affluent family like the Palins who can pay and care for him. I guess it's a positive thing that they had that choice. Being pro-active about parenting choice is important. But in the case of a welfare mother, is it fair for that child to be born only to be a burden on a world it can neither understand or contribute to? I don't agree with Pimpsolo ethically, but his reasoning IS sound. jesus christ how hard can it be to get team sarah to start posting in this thread, do i got to get a big red title as well?
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Jun 30, 2009 13:01
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Bobby Deluxe posted:jesus christ how hard can it be to get team sarah to start posting in this thread, do i got to get a big red title as well? I was under the impression Team Sarah are mostly trolls? 
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Jun 30, 2009 13:03
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Cheap Shot posted:Pimpsolo is trying to pitch us his "mandatory abortion" agenda which would be absolutely awesome, if he weren't serious. Let's hope he posts some hilarious images or goes away. This is a great thread that does not need to be derailed. needs more explosions
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Jun 30, 2009 13:27
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Vanagoon posted:just fanning the flames a little: Yeah looks like that went over well
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Jun 30, 2009 13:39
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Stephen Hawking is a functional mind in a crippled body, he serves a purpose. In fact he proves Pimpsolo's point more than yours, because he has bettered humanity with his theories on the way the universe works. Van Gogh had depression but created beautiful art. Whereas the most Trig can hope to achieve is colouring in his own name at day camp. There is literally NOTHING he can achieve for the betterment of society, and in a world that has too many people in it anyway, is it really a 'responsible parenting choice?' I agree. Personally, if I found out I was going to have a child with Down Syndrome, I would have an abortion. The Palins obviously kept the child in that situation, and they can deal with raising him. There needs to be a choice open for the parents to do whatever they want while the child is in the womb. Pimpsolo isn't trying to say he supports some kind of eugenics program; he's just saying what I'm saying, but explaining his reasoning in strong words. The thing is, he shouldn't have to explain his reasoning to anyone else, because it's up to the parents to decide whether they want to abort or not. 
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Jun 30, 2009 14:17
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Jun 30, 2009 14:51
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Bobby Deluxe posted:There is literally NOTHING he can achieve for the betterment of society
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Jun 30, 2009 15:06
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Pahilla the Hun posted:Haha! Oh, thank you so much for this picture. Goes right along with Tina Fey being the one to portray Palin on SNL, too.
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Jun 30, 2009 15:17
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Israfil posted:Haha! Oh, thank you so much for this picture. Goes right along with Tina Fey being the one to portray Palin on SNL, too. Goddamn you're sharp
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Jun 30, 2009 15:23
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Millie posted:Last time I checked, people with Downs Syndrome integrate just fine into society; live in apartments, they take public transportation, have full-time jobs, shop, balance their check books... Years ago I worked with a mildly retarded girl who helped customers and ran a cash register just fine. I know what you're thinking, "Well, that's not actually bettering society." True. But just think about all of the NON-retarded people out there who simply work a 9-5 and do nothing more than pay bills and watch reality tv shows? 
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Jun 30, 2009 15:25
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Solice Kirsk posted:We've evolved enough to not have to throw away burdens. Ensign_Ricky posted:Holy crap. Ok, so let's say someone is in vitro with the gene for Lou Gehrig's disease, do we kill them off? Or do we allow them to grow to maturity to become someone like Stephen Hawking? If instead of just posting a knee-jerk, emotionally charged attack against my statements, perhaps you would actually take ONE minute to read my post that DIRECTLY addressed this concern. But here, I'll do all of the difficult reading work for you... Pimpsolo posted:Well, I think it's not quite that simple. I think we need to be very conservative in what we consider "totally disabled" lest we off someone like Stephen Hawking. But I think a good rule of thumb is "can they support their self and not drain the income of others?" However, this is a very pragmatic view. The more fundamental reason is to propagate good genes, and minimalize bad genes. This serves so many beneficial things for humanity. The Earth has limited resources, overpopulation, global-warming, social-security, healthcare. I'm sorry to say it but all of these very important factors are hindered by the existence of those like Trig, all to appease the religious right who think he has a soul or something. Now... Ensign_Ricky posted:You want to talk slippery slope? What you are discussing *is* eugenics, plain and simple. Does this mean I'm anti-abortion? Absolutely not. Abortion does serve some purposes, after all. If my sister or daughter was raped and impregnated, I would beat to the loving ground anyone who stood in their way to the abortion clinic. But, just aborting any child in vitro because they have what you consider a negative trait? Dude. loving wrong. Calm down tough guy. I take it that you're one of the fanatical right wing, fundamental Christians who campaigned against unplugging Terry Schiavo? You have no compassion; you care about no one but yourself. You want to force your beliefs on those suffering which works to prolong their suffering all just so that you can sleep at night because you think that Jesus will save us all, or some such crap. I have news for you; you are NOT the only person that matters. People have different opinions than you. Yours are based on a magic sky creature. Mine are based on sound scientific evidence. Darwin has proved that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist. That is an undeniable fact. Maybe if you passed “Intro to Biology 101” you might understand that. Edit: Millie posted:Years ago I worked with a mildly retarded girl who helped customers and ran a cash register just fine. I know what you're thinking, "Well, that's not actually bettering society." True. While I appreciate the new found support I'm gaining (where were you guys? I thought GBS turned into the GOP) this is not just a bid to get Team Sarah members to respond. This is my heart felt opinion on the matter, and I hope we're all on the same page here. Pimpsolo fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 15:58
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Millie posted:Last time I checked, people with Downs Syndrome integrate just fine into society; live in apartments, they take public transportation, have full-time jobs, shop, balance their check books... Years ago I worked with a mildly retarded girl who helped customers and ran a cash register just fine. I know what you're thinking, "Well, that's not actually bettering society." True. But just think about all of the NON-retarded people out there who simply work a 9-5 and do nothing more than pay bills and watch reality tv shows? I think a lot of it has to do with what the parents want rather than what the kid would want. Raising a mentally challenged child can be incredibly stressful, even compared to the stress of raising a developmentally normal child. There are a lot of people who are essentially 'useless' to society, as their 9-5 jobs will probably be done by computers in a decade, but they're not as difficult to raise. The whole "bettering society" thing opens up a whole new can of worms, especially since computers are becoming more and more advanced and overpopulation becomes more of a problem, so let's not get into that. edit: Pimpsolo posted:Calm down tough guy. I take it that you're one of the fanatical right wing, fundamental Christians who campaigned against unplugging Terry Schiavo? You have no compassion; you care about no one but yourself. You want to force your beliefs on those suffering which works to prolong their suffering all just so that you can sleep at night because you think that Jesus will save us all, or some such crap. I have news for you; you are NOT the only person that matters. People have different opinions than you. Yours are based on a magic sky creature. Mine are based on sound scientific evidence. Darwin has proved that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist. That is an undeniable fact. Maybe if you passed “Intro to Biology 101” you might understand that. You're getting a little carried away there, bro. I agree with what you're saying, but you're pulling out a lot of bullshit here. His post didn't make him look like a fundie; it was pretty rational and open-minded. Keep in mind that people with Down Syndrome are almost always sterile, and we can assume no one's jumping up to be impregnated by the mentally challenged anyway. Since people already started the Godwin crap, I'll also bring up that the Nazis completely misunderstood natural selection, and it looks like you're doing the same thing. People who are gay, mentally challenged, etc. are not that way because their parents were gay or mentally challenged. They're that way because of something else entirely, and they're going to keep popping up regardless of what anyone does. You're thinking of "survival of the fittest", not natural selection, because Darwin didn't "prove that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist." GoldenLionTamarin fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 16:02
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Pimpsolo posted:Darwin has proved that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist.
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Jun 30, 2009 16:11
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Millie posted:I know Schiavo is an extreme example, because she was brain dead. But what about other people who survive accidents that leave them with permanent disabilities ie: lost limbs, brain damage, deaf/blind, etc... Should these people not exist? There should be legalized euthanasia controlled by things like the forms people fill out on whether they want to be kept on life support or not. A lot of people would want to be euthanized if they had serious brain damage, I'm sure.
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Jun 30, 2009 16:17
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Solice Kirsk posted:Didn't one of her daughters get knocked up by a meth mule? Take it back, Levi is the best frontpage contributor!
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Jun 30, 2009 16:23
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Pimpsolo posted:Like I said, I have many mildly retarded friends
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Jun 30, 2009 16:30
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Sup Bro posted:There should be legalized euthanasia controlled by things like the forms people fill out on whether they want to be kept on life support or not. A lot of people would want to be euthanized if they had serious brain damage, I'm sure. Right on, and in those cases where there isn't a written request, the default should be euthanasia. Sup Bro posted:because Darwin didn't "prove that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist." Okay, I'm admittedly simplifying the whole evolution side of the argument, but only for the sake of readability. The point is, yes, even nature wont allow them to reproduce, and in all likelihood they will never ever have sex; that would be absolutely disgusting. But we have all seen "i am sam," and we know what could happen. The point is that Trig or anyone in his condition are not fit to survive, and would thus die off, multiply that by an indefinite number, and the sum will be natural selection, making "Trigs" a rare anomaly that reduce the occurance of troglodytes like Trig to a an extremely uncommon embarrassment. At this rate however, we seem to worship these mistakes, and give them their own Olympics, we house and feed them etc. at our (financial, moral, genetic) expense. It's a very twisted system we have today.
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Jun 30, 2009 16:40
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Millie posted:I know Schiavo is an extreme example, because she was brain dead. But what about other people who survive accidents that leave them with permanent disabilities ie: lost limbs, brain damage, deaf/blind, etc... Should these people not exist? Only the person themselves can decide whether their life is worth living, all we can do is give them the choice/ ability to end their lives.
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Jun 30, 2009 16:43
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Jesus loving Christ people stop letting that lovely troll derail this otherwise hilarious thread. Probate pimpsolo and everyone who responds to him.
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Jun 30, 2009 16:46
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Pimpsolo posted:Right on, and in those cases where there isn't a written request, the default should be euthanasia. I think you're missing the point here. See humanity moves in increments, not big genius jumps and strides, as some people assume anecdotally through history books. Since the size of those small strides and jumps is tiny, who are you to judge how far or not so far any of those "special" people push humanity? and in what fields? Sociology, how humanity handles such things is important. If you can't figure that out, perhaps nature should never have selected for you, as this is humanity at its heart. /derail
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Jun 30, 2009 16:54
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GBS: Photoshop Dogs From Hell
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Jun 30, 2009 16:58
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This thread used to be good 
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Jun 30, 2009 17:01
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Pimpsolo posted:At this rate however, we seem to worship these mistakes, and give them their own Olympics, we house and feed them etc. at our (financial, moral, genetic) expense. At our genetic expense? None of this poo poo has anything to do with the gene pool. Financial expense? You're probably losing a tenth of a cent a year to the mentally challenged. If people want to deal with this poo poo, then let them. The kids aren't suffering; they're too dumb to understand the situation and they require less to be happy than a normal person. The only people suffering here are the parents, and if people like the Palins want to deal with  then they can go right ahead.
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Jun 30, 2009 17:06
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Sup Bro posted:Keep in mind that people with Down Syndrome are almost always sterile, and we can assume no one's jumping up to be impregnated by the mentally challenged anyway. http://www.ds-health.com/issues.htm I'm not saying that we should start killing off the kids with Downs, but it's important that realize that raising a child with Downs is going to be a huge challenge. I'm pro-choice but I think that in a lot of cases women really ought to consider having the child and giving it up for adoption. There are a lot of people out there who would really like to adopt an infant and raise it as their own. However, in the case of Downs and other comparable birth problems, there really isn't as much of a demand. I have a terrible feeling that Trig is going to be some huge poster child for Downs syndrome for the next 20 years, Trig is going to get all the medical and educational care that he needs to become a sorta functional member of society. People are going to see this and be inspired to try to repeat that success story when they barely have the resources to raise a perfectly healthy child.
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Jun 30, 2009 17:13
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Pimpsolo posted:*things* You're a horrible, horrible person! Nevermind the opinions, you made me think Rick Astley was dead too!  edit: spellings Stein Rockon fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 17:14
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Captain Blasphemy posted:Yeah looks like that went over well I thought it would go exactly like that, serves them right for being so insufferable. As far as I am concerned my account there is throwaway now so gently caress 'em if they can't hang with the wu-tang master. gently caress you for being so boring, Ars! I'm so awesome that if you give me lemons I'll make Limeaid with them, that's how awesome I am. Vanagoon fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 17:15
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Trubadurix posted:Your're a horrible, horrible person! Nevermind the opinions, you made me think Rick Astley was dead too! Oh come on, you know Rick would never give up. And now I have to eat soap for saying that.
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Jun 30, 2009 17:16
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:This isn't true at all! http://www.ds-health.com/faq.htm posted:Q: Are adults with Down Syndrome sterile? You're right, not all of them are sterile, but Trig is male, so he's not going to be passing on any genes. The point still stands that society doesn't find the mentally challenged sexually attractive anyway.
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Jun 30, 2009 17:23
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Trubadurix posted:you made me think Rick Astley was dead too! Don't blame me, there was a thread that got closed that announced his death, I was just trying to stay on the cusp. Why do I seem to be the only person contributing???! C'mon people!
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Jun 30, 2009 17:31
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Pimpsolo posted:Darwin has proved that Trig/Terry Schiavo should not exist. That is an undeniable fact. Maybe if you passed “Intro to Biology 101” you might understand that. Your arguement is fundamentally flawed. Technically, Darwin didn't prove anything. He just provided a theoretical groundwork for scientists to work from later. If he'd actually proved evolution then we wouldn't have to put up with the 'flat earth society' and creationist bullshit. I'm not sure that survival of the fittest would have applied to the Terri Schiavo case anyway, as she was old enough to have children and pass on her genes by the time she went into a coma. I think people with Down's syndrome have a 50% chance of producing healthy offspring, as out of the gametes produced by them, only half would carry the extra copy of chromosome 21, which would produce another affected child. The odds would still be around 25% if two people with Down's syndrome had children. They wouldn't be able to have as many children as an unaffected couple as they typically have shorter lifespans (~30 yrs) Obviously people with Down's syndrome would have difficulty raising a child, but it is likely that there would be significant social services or familial involvement to help them. Edit: If anything, Darwin theorised that people like Trig are certain to exist due to the random elements produced by natural selection. Evolution cannot happen without mutation. It has been theorised that the earliest humans developed due to a chromosomal fusion in a chimpanzee-like common ancestor. ImhotepsServant fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 17:36
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You're either just being contrary for the sake of it, or you're not reading my posts.Pimpsolo posted:It's not that we don't want genetic diversity. Of course I have blemishes we all do, but we (unlike Trig) also have features that may be beneficial for the gene pool/humanity. That's exactly how evolution works. Darwin has proved it, as much as gravitational theory is proved. You need to understand the concept of a "scientific theory." It isn't the same thing as the colloquial use of the term "theory." A scientific theory needs mounds and mounds of evidence, and Darwin's theories have withstood scientific prodding time and time again. It is proven. If you don't want accept evolution as true, we have nothing to discuss really. ImhotepsServant posted:Obviously people with Down's syndrome would have difficulty raising a child, but it is likely that there would be significant social services or familial involvement to help them.
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Jun 30, 2009 17:55
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Just to add a bit of fun for you guys...quote:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/06/30/palin-god/ This woman is beyond delusional!!!!
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Jun 30, 2009 18:02
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Pimpsolo posted:Darwin has proved it, as much as gravitational theory is proved. You need to understand the concept of a "scientific theory." It isn't the same thing as the colloquial use of the term "theory." A scientific theory needs mounds and mounds of evidence, and Darwin's theories have withstood scientific prodding time and time again. It is proven. If you don't want accept evolution as true, we have nothing to discuss really. Based on the fact that Children with Down's are able to stay alive in the United States they are definitely sufficiently adapted. Darwin really isn't the right direction to go at all in defending your views, people who have a much better handle on the subject are going to run circles around you if you keep pushing the Evolution angle.
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Jun 30, 2009 18:08
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Pimpsolo posted:You're either just being contrary for the sake of it, or you're not reading my posts. At what point in my post did I attempt to disprove evolution? I just pointed out that although Darwin developed the original theory of evolution, it took the efforts of later scientists to prove it by highlighting the mechanisms and processes. I've been studying biology for over 12 years and I've just recieved my PhD in the subject. I frequently read books and essays on evolution and natural selection, and It has been proved dozens of times. I have seen it myself in experiments I have designed and implemented. You have missed my point entirely. You stated that due to natural selection, people with Downs Syndrome and people who have been rendered braindead should not exist. I disagreed. While they are less likely to pass on their genetic material, they are still highly likely to exist due to the random nature of evolution. Nature doesn't just automatically annihilate anything that doesn't work. If there is support in the ecosystem, or in the artificial environment that humans have created, there is less selective pressure on weaker individuals and they are more likely to survive. By your logic, people with diseases like cystic fibrosis, lupus, asthma etc. are less deserving of life because the medical treatment they need is a burden on society. Without medication, they would die. Do you disagree with vaccination too? Viruses only kill the weaker individuals? Where do you draw the line? Should we start killing the old and infirm? Let women die in childbirth? Maybe we should go and live in trees so only the strongest specimens can survive. Given the choice, I would terminate an embryo found to have a developmental abnormality, but it is wrong to suggest euthanasia. I used to be a lot more hardline about the issue when I was a younger, but it's easier to empathise with the parents of affected children when you know some of them. EDIT: You appear to be a caricature of the internet atheist. ImhotepsServant fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 30, 2009 |
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Jun 30, 2009 18:16
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Pimpsolo posted:You have no idea what you're talking about. Shut up and let the thread continue. Everyone else, please ignore him so as to not poo poo up the thread. I sincerely hope Sarah Palin catches wind of this. For now it's just conservative bloggers, but if we were to get Palin to be enraged, even better. I also love the fact that as soon as someone said Palin doesn't like people photoshopping her baby, people immediately begin photoshopping the baby.
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Jun 30, 2009 18:18
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Krenzo posted:
No Ed McMahon? or trent reznor?
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Jun 30, 2009 18:22
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