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CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012



In California we call them unmarked crosswalks, but pedestrians still legally have priority there.

E: every intersection is essentially a crosswalk by default here:

quote:

“Crosswalk” is either:

(a) That portion of a roadway included within the prolongation or connection of the boundary lines of sidewalks at intersections where the intersecting roadways meet at approximately right angles, except the prolongation of such lines from an alley across a street.

(b) Any portion of a roadway distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other markings on the surface.

CopperHound fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Aug 11, 2020

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Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

CopperHound posted:

In California we call them unmarked crosswalks, but pedestrians still legally have priority there.

Ditto Maryland. A crosswalk is legally defined by the curb ramps - the pavement markings are just to call attention.

Different agencies have different policies about where and when they mark crosswalks.

Generally the only time you have unmarked crosswalks is for minor roadway crossings, like in a residential area.

Jaguars!
Jul 31, 2012




The New Zealand road code refers to ones with non standard markings as courtesy crossings (Pedestrians have to wait until a car decides to stop). Crossings which just have the footpath with no road markings are pram crossings or more generically kerb cuts.

Wolfsbane
Jul 29, 2009

What time is it, Eccles?



Hippie Hedgehog posted:

Hey traffic enthusiasts!

Is there an English word for an unmarked pedestrian crossing?

Example in the UK:


Decidedly not a zebra crossing (no stripes), nor a pelican/pelicon crossing (no signal).

I suspect that the pictured design means "please cross here, but take care because motorists have right-of-way".

Since it's in use in the UK, I assume there must be a term for it, but the Wikipedia article on "pedestrian crossing" doesn't seem to mention this type, it only seems to discuss crossing where the pedestrian has right-of-way.

I see these all over the place in Scandinavia, where they often narrow the road by curb extensions, and/or add bollards for the vision impaired to find them easier.

There's no word for it in the UK because almost all of the road junctions in a residential area will look like that. Smaller roads have a simple ramp with the textured and coloured concrete slab, bigger ones get the central island.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

Thanks for the international perspectives, everyone! I guess I can conclude that names and rules vary between different jurisdictions. "Courtesy crossings" seems like a fitting name and I did find a UK reference or two, even this from a county:
https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/roadsafety/pedestriancrossings

Some cities here in Sweden have started moving from zebra crossings everywhere to having these "courtesy crossings" in places with lighter traffic. My town replaced some where an intersection was judged "too complicated", where drivers were frequently not noticing pedestrians on the zebra marks. Supposedly removing the markings and signs will make peds pay more attention and cross when there are no oncoming cars.

Hippie Hedgehog fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Aug 12, 2020

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



I guess one aspect to American pedestrian culture is always making sure no idiot drivers are coming, even if the signals and signs and markings all protect them.

Saukkis
May 16, 2003

Unless I'm on the inside curve pointing straight at oncoming traffic the high beams stay on and I laugh at your puny protest flashes.
I am Most Important Man. Most Important Man in the World.

Jaguars! posted:

The New Zealand road code refers to ones with non standard markings as courtesy crossings (Pedestrians have to wait until a car decides to stop). Crossings which just have the footpath with no road markings are pram crossings or more generically kerb cuts.

I vacationed in New Zealand recently and I felt the biggest danger were those crosswalks, and crosswalks lights I had real trouble figuring out when I'm allowed to cross. Not to mention trying to remember which way to look.

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

CopperHound posted:

In California we call them unmarked crosswalks, but pedestrians still legally have priority there.

E: every intersection is essentially a crosswalk by default here:

Yup and literally no one follows the law on this, including, ya know, the cops:
https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/04/13/the-jaywalker-brutalized-by-sacramento-police-was-stopped-for-no-reason-at-all/

Lobsterpillar
Feb 4, 2014


The way I look at it, "who legally has priority" just means "who is at fault if a crash occurs and how severe a penalty you'll get in court".

Sure, a zebra crossing gives you legal priority, but that doesn't help you much when you've got a broken leg and spinal injuries (except in the US where it'll probably help you sue them).

People do seem to think zebra crossing are safer, and they're good when in the right location and designed right, but a badly designed zebra crossing (whether it was a legacy or for political reasons) can be worse than nothing.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



Lobsterpillar posted:

The way I look at it, "who legally has priority" just means "who is at fault if a crash occurs and how severe a penalty you'll get in court".

Sure, a zebra crossing gives you legal priority, but that doesn't help you much when you've got a broken leg and spinal injuries (except in the US where it'll probably help you sue them).

People do seem to think zebra crossing are safer, and they're good when in the right location and designed right, but a badly designed zebra crossing (whether it was a legacy or for political reasons) can be worse than nothing.

That reminds me of perverse legal incentives in China.

In China, the penalty for hitting a pedestrian while driving, if the pedestrian dies, is a set amount.
If the pedestrian survives, it's paying their healthcare costs for the rest of their life.

So, if a crash is unavoidable, if you don't want to be in debt for the rest of your life it's better to make sure it's deadly. Drive over the victim a couple more times if you have to.

For similar reasons, if you're hurt in a car crash in China, generally bystanders won't attempt to help you. They're scared that if they're seen to be the first person that approaches and to be held responsible for the person's medical status somehow. It can turn into a standoff until either officials appear or the hurt person gets up by themselves.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Aug 17, 2020

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007





Carbon dioxide posted:

That reminds me of perverse legal incentives in China.

In China, the penalty for hitting a pedestrian while driving, if the pedestrian dies, is a set amount.
If the pedestrian survives, it's paying their healthcare costs for the rest of their life.

So, if a crash is unavoidable, if you don't want to be in debt for the rest of your life it's better to make sure it's deadly. Drive over the victim a couple more times if you have to.

For similar reasons, if you're hurt in a car crash in China, generally bystanders won't attempt to help you. They're scared that if they're seen to be the first person that approaches and to be held responsible for the person's medical status somehow. It can turn into a standoff until either officials appear or the hurt person gets up by themselves.

I'd be careful bandying that around seeing as there's little to no evidence which supports it. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chinese-drivers-kill-pedestrians/

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



I'll generally go out of my way to use zebra crossings vs signalized ones since the former gives me instant right of way while the latter I have to wait for. Luckily I live somewhere where a pedestrian near a zebra crossing is treated about as seriously as a red light.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

Baronjutter posted:

Luckily I live somewhere where a pedestrian near a zebra crossing is treated about as seriously as a red light.

Yeah that's what they teach in driver's ed here, too. Zebra stripes mean slow down. If there's a pedestrian nearby, if you don't at least slow down enough to be able to stop in case they want to cross, that's a failure on the driving exam.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"



Also make all the streets 40 or even 30 kph zones so drivers are always going slow enough to stop in time for anyone jumping out at a crossing.

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008


People around here are really bad at body language. I'll stop for people who clearly want to cross the street, only for them to wave me on and refuse to cross. Then I have people who are facing away from the street and stepped away from the curb turn around at the last second to look at me like I'm the devil for not stopping for them.

There are a few crossings with a button, or a beam break sensor, to get flashing yellow lights. The clarity of intent with those is nice at least.

grillster
Dec 25, 2004



They sit there on the phone at the end of the crosswalk, embracing the quiet, until about 70 cars approach from both directions then they begin to cross.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Baronjutter posted:

Also make all the streets 40 or even 30 kph zones so drivers are always going slow enough to stop in time for anyone jumping out at a crossing.

Quite a lot of towns in Germany have 30kph limits for noise reduction and presumably also pedestrian/cyclist safety reasons.

The way drivers talk about those towns, you would think it was some kind of mandatory puppy murder policy or something. People are angry about having to go a bit slower through towns.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

"This is your brain on CARS"

smackfu
Jun 7, 2004



Guy Axlerod posted:

People around here are really bad at body language. I'll stop for people who clearly want to cross the street, only for them to wave me on and refuse to cross.

This is tough because even though the law will say you have to stop for pedestrians, a lot of cars don’t stop, and a lot of pedestrians would rather cross when there are no cars rather than when you are waiting.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

Also depending on the road setup/amount of traffic, just because you stopped doesn't mean it's safe to cross. And you stopping can actually make it harder/more dangerous to cross if people fly up behind you and swerve into the other lane to get around you, instead of letting gaps form naturally. If it's quiet enough that none of these apply, you're probably just dealing with someone who feels awkward that you stopped for them even though the law says you're technically supposed to.

(this also applies to people who stop to let another car turn in front of them, except they're even worse because they're straight-up ignoring the law/right-of-way to do so)

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008


Oh yeah, I get that. My college was set up so there was a 4 lane boulevard between the dorms and main campus. People would wave me on from the near lane while other cars were passing in the other lane. Or a bus would stop, leaving me no view of the other lane. They converted that spot to a roundabout after I graduated.

I'm also still annoyed by the guy at some airport that was waving cars through the crosswalk I was actively walking in.

The place I'm thinking of here is pretty quiet though.

pun pundit
Nov 11, 2008

I feel the same way about the company bearing the same name.



Also, during rush hour on a two lane road I'm very positive toward people who see they won't get home any slower if they stop and let me turn across instead of creeping through the intersection in their endless line of 10 kph traffic

smackfu
Jun 7, 2004



Ha, this reminds me of my wife’s bad habit of waving people through... when she’s in the passenger seat.

Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

pun pundit posted:

Also, during rush hour on a two lane road I'm very positive toward people who see they won't get home any slower if they stop and let me turn across instead of creeping through the intersection in their endless line of 10 kph traffic
I'm thinking more of the situations around where I live, where you're unlikely to have roads that congested. Most of the time people being let in by someone being 'polite' create active road hazards because they're trying to cross multiple lanes of traffic, many of which are typically moving at 40-50mph and may not be able to see them if they're in front of the car letting them in(there's one specific intersection that's really bad about this because there's a gas station on the corner but a median preventing people from turning to go west from there, so instead they'll try to cross a right turn lane & two straight lanes to get into the left turn lane from the road going north). Even if they're just going into the lane of the person being 'polite', it's still dangerous to come to a stop when nobody's expecting you to do so/refuse to go when people are expecting you to go. 99% of the time people will get a gap naturally within 1-3 minutes anyway, so people doing this stuff aren't even helping their intended helpee that much.

If it's legitimately so congested that nobody's going more than 5mph anyway, then it's much more reasonable(and actually polite) to do that.

Haifisch fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 2, 2020

RFC2324
Jun 7, 2012

http 418



Haifisch posted:

I'm thinking more of the situations around where I live, where you're unlikely to have roads that congested. Most of the time people being let in by someone being 'polite' create active road hazards because they're trying to cross multiple lanes of traffic, many of which are typically moving at 40-50mph and may not be able to see them if they're in front of the car letting them in(there's one specific intersection that's really bad about this because there's a gas station on the corner but a median preventing people from turning to go west from there, so instead they'll try to cross a right turn lane & two straight lanes to get into the left turn lane from the road going north). Even if they're just going into the lane of the person being 'polite', it's still dangerous to come to a stop when nobody's expecting you to do so/refuse to go when people are expecting you to go. 99% of the time people will get a gap naturally within 1-3 minutes anyway, so people doing this stuff aren't even helping their intended helpee that much.

If it's legitimately so congested that nobody's going more than 5mph anyway, then it's much more reasonable(and actually polite) to do that.

if you aren't driving with one foot on the break most places you are just begging to get in an accident.

and then when you do use the brake early and often you get rear ended

peepeepants
Oct 9, 2001

I hope that after I die, people will say of me: "That guy sure owed me a lot of money."



Tag yourself

I'm the 300' long bike crossing through the intersection that will kill someone because they were caught in the middle when the light changed

here is the project, not that I am against dedicated bus infrastructure, but this is the best they can do?
https://twitter.com/UrbanizeLA/status/1326208809849790464?s=20

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008


I'm the Stright/Right Turn lane at the lower right that ends in a concrete island. I also like the porn store right in the middle of the drawing.

Greg12
Apr 22, 2020


I'm the left turn across the right-turning bus in the street coming from the bottom right corner of the picture

Bad Munki
Nov 4, 2008

We're all mad here.



Why don't they just lower the bus

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

peepeepants posted:

I'm the 300' long bike crossing through the intersection that will kill someone because they were caught in the middle when the light changed

I'm sure it will be fine, they'll just have to use a bike clearance interval in the signal cycle, it's only *checks notes* 26 seconds for a bike traveling 8 mph

In reality, they'll probably need to have a bike signal that goes red MUCH earlier than the vehicle red. At that point, the cyclist being killed was at fault, so our job as engineers is done.

peepeepants
Oct 9, 2001

I hope that after I die, people will say of me: "That guy sure owed me a lot of money."



Devor posted:

I'm sure it will be fine, they'll just have to use a bike clearance interval in the signal cycle, it's only *checks notes* 26 seconds for a bike traveling 8 mph

In reality, they'll probably need to have a bike signal that goes red MUCH earlier than the vehicle red. At that point, the cyclist being killed was at fault, so our job as engineers is done.

Yeah, I know. That coupled with the longest crosswalk requiring at least a 40 second do not cross countdown makes me wonder what horrendous cycle length that signal would be. I guess they can combine the bus priority with the protected dual left-turn phase but it still will suck unless you start restricting movements. Wish they'd extend those bump-outs and medians more so bikes/peds can comfortably cross in two crossings instead of one long. That can also shorten the cycle length to encourage people to wait at the red instead of them blowing the 26-second clearance interval because they don't want to wait 3 minutes for the next green.

All those shopping center parking lots and they can't replace the on-street parking for some trees or something not car-related. oh well, no one will want to walk there anyway.

Thanks, for reading. I enjoy ranting about my profession.

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





peepeepants posted:

Tag yourself

I'm the 300' long bike crossing through the intersection that will kill someone because they were caught in the middle when the light changed

here is the project, not that I am against dedicated bus infrastructure, but this is the best they can do?
https://twitter.com/UrbanizeLA/status/1326208809849790464?s=20

roundabouts are too complicated though

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008


Greg12 posted:

I'm the left turn across the right-turning bus in the street coming from the bottom right corner of the picture

Looking at it again, the left turning bus also conflicts with cars turning more left.

Devor posted:

I'm sure it will be fine, they'll just have to use a bike clearance interval in the signal cycle, it's only *checks notes* 26 seconds for a bike traveling 8 mph

In reality, they'll probably need to have a bike signal that goes red MUCH earlier than the vehicle red. At that point, the cyclist being killed was at fault, so our job as engineers is done.

Maybe the dedicated bus cycle they will need can overlap some of that.

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Guy Axlerod posted:

Maybe the dedicated bus cycle they will need can overlap some of that.

Nah the bus cycle is going to be like a super-short turn phase - it's not like you're ever going to have more than 1-2 buses queued.

Dik Hz
Feb 22, 2004

Fun with Science



I'm the comically undersized traffic lights: routinely ignored by everyone despite trying my best to bring order to chaos and prevent imminent death and destruction.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



Dik Hz posted:

routinely ignored by everyone despite trying my best to bring order to chaos and prevent imminent death and destruction.

please dont doxx me

u brexit ukip it
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

I'm the 60 degree angle right turns

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


Just imagine how much wealthier that city would become if they made that entire road into a park, with an electric train down or under the middle and sensible access to the surrounding space.

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012



Anias posted:

Just imagine how much wealthier that city would become if they made that entire road into a park, with an electric train down or under the middle and sensible access to the surrounding space.
Is this before or after we ban all cars?

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barnold
Dec 16, 2011

...but i didnt finish




that intersection looks like it would be far better served by a dogbone roundabout than anything else tbh

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