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Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Most cities would probably be better off if every other road was closed off to cars. 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th streets can handle cars, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th are for public transport, pedestrians, and bikes.

Even just closing off roads to thru traffic (by installing a handful of bicycle gates that prevent cars from traversing significant lengths of the road without going around) can go a long ways to reviving areas. Local traffic and emergency vehicles have all the access they need, and commuters go around because the major avenues are more convenient. Businesses do better, non-vehicular use of all kinds skyrockets, and traffic is actually improved because it's contained to well-regulated thoroughfares.

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Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



Yup, in that example the shops on bicycle/pedestrian streets will quickly start seeing more business than those on the car streets, since no matter how much street side parking you build, you can never catch up to everyone doing a quick hop over by bike or on foot to get some stuff they need. In which case it's also really convenient for them to visit other stores nearby since you can just walk/bike up to them.

At least, this is the typical scenario in basically any city in the world where they tried this, including North America where these experiments were done occassionally.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acohr2rC74M

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.


Disappointed, but not surprised, that the intersection of no return was just a signage oversight

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1386138654632943624?s=20

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.


I'll give them a pass since it looks like there isn't any signage or pavement markings installed

It's like an experiment in Unsupervised Learning - how will a group of humans who have never been exposed to roundabouts use this? Maybe they'll find a new way of using the roundabout that is more effici- oh. We've just had three head-on collisions.

EngineerJoe
Aug 8, 2004
-=whore=-



It took a lot of training to get people in Waterloo, Ontario used to roundabouts but I think we're mostly there. People don't really complain about them and most people go through the right way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Svgp6xgto

Cat Hatter
Oct 24, 2006

Hatters gonna hat.



In my opinion, this looks like someone screwed up, another person blindly followed the guy in front of him, and then you had several people going "must be some kind of detour at the roundabout because everyone is going this way". Eventually enough people go through correctly that one guy realized what he was doing and stopped in the middle of the roundabout before deciding his only option was to keep going.

Varance
Oct 28, 2004

Ladies, hide your footwear!

Nap Ghost

To be fair, that is a poorly designed roundabout.

Then again, I've seen worse.



Varance fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Apr 25, 2021

Dominus Vobiscum
Sep 2, 2004

Our motives are multiple, our desires complex.

Fallen Rib

Good old "technically a roundabout, functionally a 4-way stop" traffic calming design.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Thereís nothing calming about a badly designed roundabout I am incredibly mad looking at those

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007





More a general suggestion than an actual roundabout.

dublish
Oct 31, 2011



When your stakeholders know roundabouts are the hot new thing but you don't actually have the money to refurbish your intersections properly.

RoastBeef
Jul 10, 2008




New Jersey loves to build things that aren't not roundabouts.

Bonus: what if we put like five businesses in the middle of the circle?

Varance
Oct 28, 2004

Ladies, hide your footwear!

Nap Ghost

RoastBeef posted:



New Jersey loves to build things that aren't not roundabouts.

Bonus: what if we put like five businesses in the middle of the circle?



Could stick the businesses between two roundabouts using one-way roads...



Edit: Here, have a teardrop with offset lefts and a light rail station.

Varance fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Apr 26, 2021

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.


*slapping engineer with a copy of the Highway Capacity Manual*

*smack*
READ
*smack*
ABOUT
*smack*
WEAVING
*smack*

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008


They also can never decide if people in the circle or outside the circle have right of way. It seems to be half and half. If that traffic bean is the one I'm thinking of, traffic coming into the bean has priority.

RoastBeef
Jul 10, 2008


Devor posted:

*slapping engineer with a copy of the Highway Capacity Manual*

*smack*
READ
*smack*
ABOUT
*smack*
WEAVING
*smack*

You'll probably need a shovel, it's been the same since at least 1947.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Truly ahead of its time

Cat Hatter
Oct 24, 2006

Hatters gonna hat.


Dominus Vobiscum posted:

Good old "technically a roundabout, functionally a 4-way stop" traffic calming design.



I don't see how these are fundamentally different from a mini-roundabout.

Mr. Fall Down Terror
Jan 24, 2018


Cat Hatter posted:

I don't see how these are fundamentally different from a mini-roundabout.

because they more closely resemble a four way stop with an obstruction in the middle, drivers are going to treat them like a four way stop

or not stop because there's no signage and eventually someone's going to get tboned

or some drunk/distracted driver is going to just plow right over the obstruction in the middle

Cat Hatter
Oct 24, 2006

Hatters gonna hat.


Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

because they more closely resemble a four way stop with an obstruction in the middle, drivers are going to treat them like a four way stop

or not stop because there's no signage and eventually someone's going to get tboned

or some drunk/distracted driver is going to just plow right over the obstruction in the middle

A mini roundabout is basically a for way stop with a circle painted in the center. If they can be bothered, they round the corners and make the circle out of inlayed brick. Granted they're only really used in the UK where people have more experience with roundabouts in the first place.

Armacham
Mar 3, 2007

Then brothers in war, to the skirmish must we hence! Shall we hence?

Cat Hatter posted:

A mini roundabout is basically a for way stop with a circle painted in the center. If they can be bothered, they round the corners and make the circle out of inlayed brick. Granted they're only really used in the UK where people have more experience with roundabouts in the first place.

They're used here in tucson in neighborhoods as a traffic calming/slowing measure supposedly. People will avoid cutting through neighborhoods because of them too. We have a few normal traffic circles too.

Northern Arizona has put in a lot in the past few years as well as they've constructed highways.

peepeepants
Oct 9, 2001

I hope that after I die, people will say of me: "That guy sure owed me a lot of money."



Cat Hatter posted:

I don't see how these are fundamentally different from a mini-roundabout.

They are: https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/intersections/minor-intersections/mini-roundabout/

From my observations of them, 4/5 drivers who want to turn left will refuse to go all the way around them and effectively go the wrong way (turn left in front of the island) even when there is a car coming. Never underestimate a driver's desire to save a few seconds in their drive.

MrYenko
Jun 17, 2012

#2 isn't ALWAYS bad...


peepeepants posted:

They are: https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/intersections/minor-intersections/mini-roundabout/

From my observations of them, 4/5 drivers who want to turn left will refuse to go all the way around them and effectively go the wrong way (turn left in front of the island) even when there is a car coming. Never underestimate a driver's desire to save a few seconds in their drive.

They are the same drivers who will cut the inside lane in a multi-lane circle. Or a left turn at a normal intersection. Or on the inside lane of a normal left turn and then panic stop when they are head-on with the median because they canít be bothered to actually look where theyíre going, or turn the steering wheel more than ~45į.

devicenull
May 30, 2007



Grimey Drawer

RoastBeef posted:



New Jersey loves to build things that aren't not roundabouts.

Bonus: what if we put like five businesses in the middle of the circle?



NJ loves to put things in the middle of other things that shouldn't be.

Example: Route 22 in Somerville: https://goo.gl/maps/5KzcF791F1td5RLT9

Nice 3 lane divided highway, but oh wait there's a bunch of restaurants in the middle. Hope you like merging at 65 with no ramp, or not getting rear ended while turning in!

Nearby is this roundabout which honestly feels like it's too small to have two lanes.

RoastBeef
Jul 10, 2008


devicenull posted:

NJ loves to put things in the middle of other things that shouldn't be.

Example: Route 22 in Somerville: https://goo.gl/maps/5KzcF791F1td5RLT9

Nice 3 lane divided highway, but oh wait there's a bunch of restaurants in the middle. Hope you like merging at 65 with no ramp, or not getting rear ended while turning in!

Nearby is this roundabout which honestly feels like it's too small to have two lanes.

There's also this stretch of 22 in Union:


It's about 2 1/4 miles long, and it has seventeen (17) u-turns.

Switchback
Jul 23, 2001



Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

or some drunk/distracted driver is going to just plow right over the obstruction in the middle

Isnít that the point? Hoons gunning through the intersection get their tires popped, seems fair.

Lobsterpillar
Feb 4, 2014


I guess they're designed to be mountable, you'll trash your car but are unlikely to kill yourself.

Natty Ninefingers
Feb 17, 2011


I honestly like them as long as they are used in the correct places, which is to say urban side streets that are really just interconnected parking lots anyway.

Lobsterpillar
Feb 4, 2014


I'm curious, do any traffic engineers in the thread have any experience with their cities attempts to address street racers and the like?

Also anyone aware of any situations where passing heavy traffic has caused damage to nearby buildings?

AreWeDrunkYet
Jul 8, 2006



Lobsterpillar posted:

I'm curious, do any traffic engineers in the thread have any experience with their cities attempts to address street racers and the like?

The best bet is deploying The Rock, but you have to be careful because he might join up with the street racers if their cause is just.

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002



Lobsterpillar posted:

Also anyone aware of any situations where passing heavy traffic has caused damage to nearby buildings?

generally anything heavy enough that could potentially damage buildings will have their route scouted/measured to avoid such things. Also in my county they require a permit indicating which routes they're taking so that the various municipalities can temporarily take down signs or other minor obstructions.

Devor
Nov 30, 2004
Lurking more.

Lobsterpillar posted:

Also anyone aware of any situations where passing heavy traffic has caused damage to nearby buildings?

It's usually construction that does the damage, rather than truck traffic.

One time around here, a contractor was doing a geotechnical boring, and pierced the ceiling of an underground Metro station. Woops!

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012



Lobsterpillar posted:

I'm curious, do any traffic engineers in the thread have any experience with their cities attempts to address street racers and the like?

It's called speed-lowering measures.


Don't just slap down a speed limit sign, everyone knows that doesn't work.
Make the road narrow on purpose. Add tight bends. Speed bumps if you have to. No way people are gonna street race here.

Of course you also need a clear distinction between living streets and through roads, don't build stroads. They're horrible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORzNZUeUHAM

quote:

Also anyone aware of any situations where passing heavy traffic has caused damage to nearby buildings?

I've heard some cases where, after many trucks passing through a street every single day, the brickwork in houses started getting cracks from the vibrations.
Probably the best way to solve it is by limiting access to trucks, e.g. only for local deliveries, only during certain times of the day, and with a very low speed. Give through traffic an easy way around, through traffic is never supposed to go through built-up areas anyway.

peepeepants
Oct 9, 2001

I hope that after I die, people will say of me: "That guy sure owed me a lot of money."



Lobsterpillar posted:

I'm curious, do any traffic engineers in the thread have any experience with their cities attempts to address street racers and the like?

Add speed humps

Lobsterpillar posted:

Also anyone aware of any situations where passing heavy traffic has caused damage to nearby buildings?

I heard of a building right next to an interstate in an urban area that won a lawsuit with the State DOT for structural damages caused by vibrations from 40-ton trucks hitting a massive pothole in the highway at 70 mph. That was a pretty unique case.


Carbon dioxide posted:

It's called speed-lowering measures.


Don't just slap down a speed limit sign, everyone knows that doesn't work.
Make the road narrow on purpose. Add tight bends. Speed bumps if you have to. No way people are gonna street race here.

I want to do this so bad. My state blindly follows the National Fire Code which mandates all streets have a 20' wide unobstructed clear path so fire trucks can set the outriggers for their ladders. Our one-way single lane streets are stupidly wide and there isn't much we can do about it. It loving sucks.

LimaBiker
Dec 9, 2020


Re: "racing" on cycle lanes.

In the netherlands, it's pretty much a non-issue. The people who wanna go fast, quickly get annoyed with having to brake and wait to overtake others or stop for traffic lights, so they generally get out of the city to do their training. If the roads are quiet enough to make it possible to continuously go 35km/h on a racey bicycle, then there also is no problem with going at those speeds.
But for the most part, they go ride fast outside of city limits, where there is much more space for everyone.
Some boomers get their panties in a bunch because omg that bicycle is going at the speed of a moped and that makes it Worse Than a Moped, but boomers gonna boom i guess. Mopeds (that go 45km/h) are supposed to use cycle lanes outside of city limits, btw.

Of course there will always be rear end in a top hat cyclists, but that is a 'traffic' thing, not a 'cyclist' thing.
It's all not really that big of a deal. Speeds are self-limiting. If there are fast cyclists in your country, they'll eventually slow down when more people start using the cycle lanes/paths.

Re: alternating streets for cars and for cyclists/public transport

If you mean literally having the buses or trams share the road with cyclists, that is a *VERY* bad idea. You need a fully separated/protected cycle road in such a case, because trams and buses kill cyclists with ease (many people don't know the sight lines of bus drivers, and don't realize that buses can cut across the cycle lane if they turn).
Tram rail gutters also cause many injuries because cyclists occasionally get their wheel into one. You will instantly fall.

There are a few of those combined cycle/bus roads in Groningen, and i absolutely hated them. Buses have to crawl past the cyclists, reducing the efficiency of the bus system a lot. For cyclists it's nerve racking to have a 10 ton bus slowly creeping up to you and past you.

Otherwise, limiting car access works fairly well, as long as you still allow people in for transporting heavy stuff you buy at stores (like TVs at an electronics store), residents, and people visiting residents.


Final thing: speed humps are horrible pollution causing devices. They are truly the worst of all things. Making people brake and accelerate all the time is a Bad Thing. It wrecks the backs of bus drivers who have them on their route, and also ambulance drivers have complained a lot about them.
Adding those swervy chicane-like things is also effective, but doesn't force people into braking and accelerating as much, while still reducing the average speed.

LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Apr 28, 2021

Koesj
Aug 3, 2003


LimaBiker posted:

There are a few of those combined cycle/bus roads in Groningen, and i absolutely hated them. Buses have to crawl past the cyclists, reducing the efficiency of the bus system a lot. For cyclists it's nerve racking to have a 10 ton bus slowly creeping up to you and past you.

Maybe itís early onset dementia but Iíve lived here for 18 years and canít figure which roads youíre speaking of

e: wait, probably Oosterstraat/Gelkingestraat, but eh, what can one expect in a medieval town center. Also the busses are getting rerouted out of there.

Koesj fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 28, 2021

Groda
Mar 17, 2005



Hair Elf

LimaBiker posted:

There are a few of those combined cycle/bus roads in Groningen, and i absolutely hated them. Buses have to crawl past the cyclists, reducing the efficiency of the bus system a lot. For cyclists it's nerve racking to have a 10 ton bus slowly creeping up to you and past you.

I've spend a lot of time in Groningen, and love not sharing bus space all the time, but here in Stockholm there's a big advantage to them: Drivers are totally cool with parking on a bike lane or a bike path, but they're deathly afraid of parking in a bus lane.

Swedish traffic culture very car-centric and anti-bicycle, so it's about the best option available in places where there's no grade separation (Sweden basically never installs permanent lane barriers -- probably because of snow removal.). Besides, all the times I've been hit by buses, they were merging right or making a right turn through me.

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Haifisch
Nov 12, 2010

Objection! I object! That was... objectionable!



Taco Defender

LimaBiker posted:

Final thing: speed humps are horrible pollution causing devices. They are truly the worst of all things. Making people brake and accelerate all the time is a Bad Thing. It wrecks the backs of bus drivers who have them on their route, and also ambulance drivers have complained a lot about them.
I'd be curious about crash statistics around them, too. It seems like a coin flip whether someone goes slowly but steadily over them or brakes to a complete halt and crawls over them at 1mph, and that sort of unpredictability is bad for safety. They always struck me as a bandaid solution when people didn't feel like actually designing the road for lower speeds - a tiny bit better(if making people go slower is your only goal, anyway) than just slapping a lower speed limit on the road, but not by much.

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