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Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

I think the university campus 'De Uithof' in Utrecht has a kind of interesting, but typically Dutch road design.

http://goo.gl/maps/IHOOi

This streetview link shows a photo made from the bus road. On this road only public transport buses and taxis (with a blue license plate) are allowed. Not Google Streetview cars. :P

Anyway, the red two-lane road at the right side? Yep, that's a bicycle path. Most of the bicycle paths on the campus are similar to that one, although the one in the picture is exceptionally wide.

Somewhat further along we have this situation: http://goo.gl/maps/EaWQI

The sign at the left side says something like "Bike street, cars allowed". It is a short street with some stores and fastfood places. Delivery trucks are allowed on that street, but they have to drive slowly and give bikes complete right of way. Regular car users should park in the main street or in the parking garage and walk there.

One problem is that around rush hour, the road from the highway exit at the North tends to get completely clogged up. The highways around the city get jammed too. At the same time, bikes are trying to get through the traffic and cross car roads at a lot of places, often ignoring traffic lights. Things can get a bit scary for both cars and bikes.

I bring this up because a random prof who commutes by bike wrote a piece for the university newspaper. He says that the campus is very dangerous for cyclists, especially those who aren't used to Dutch traffic. He proposes to make the campus itself free of cars and build a ring road around it. Read the article here, it's written in a quite funny way.

I don't know. I think it works okay the way it is now, and it might be bad to exclude cars completely. Even now, car drivers sometimes have to walk quite far because of full parking areas. However, making the campus 'greener' is a nice idea as well.

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Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Cichlidae posted:

Focused on the woman scratching her butt, eh? I have to note, I love that architecture. Beautiful stuff.

Okay, I had not noticed that woman.

Uithof architecture is an interesting mix. When they started building the place, they put down a bunch of boring 'concrete blocks' buildings. They were named Trans 1, Trans 2, and so on, from 'transitory'. Those ugly 'transitory' buildings are still there, but got new names. Since then, they hired kinda famous architects to design newer buildings. The black building with glass to the right is the university library. It has lots of open spaces inside, each floor is laid out differently, and from the main hall you can see all the way to the top of the building.

There is also a building which had a pond inside, on the 2nd (top) floor. Rain water from the roof falls through drains into the pond, and as far as I understand it, the rain water was then used to flush the toilets. A few years ago they got problems, though. The thing started leaking, and someone decided that a leaking pond right above a bunch of computer rooms might be a bad idea. So they closed off the drains, emptied the pond, and last year they decided to put lounge chairs there. There's other interesting buildings too.
The result of all this is that if you're quietly studying in the library, people that are doing a local architecture tour come storming in and start taking pictures of everything. Oh well.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jan 18, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

This reminds me of a few cases.

There's this military airfield in Holland: Maps.

The runway doesn't cross the road, but it ends right at the road. At the other side of the road there's the runway 'head' lights for pilots. The road has big signs saying that it is dangerous to stop at all there, and a traffic light at each end, which I think is controlled by the airfield traffic control.

Then there is this similar case on the Carribean island of St. Maarten (another constituent country of the Kingdom of the Netherlands): Maps.

In this case, there's the end/beginning of a runway, then a road, and then a beach. The beach is actually used for sunbathing and stuff, and you can guess what happens with all the sand... and people, whenever a jet plane comes in mere meters above the ground. It's probably not very safe, but some people go there just so they can watch planes come in.

By the way, I believe I read a news article a few months ago about a similar setup, I think it was somewhere in the USA. That road wasn't very clearly signed, and this small aircraft bumped with its landing gear into a car while landing. I know the people in the plane survived, because they were interviewed. I'm not certain what happened with the car driver.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Over here in Holland at least bicycle path lights with buttons have 'countdowns', usually a number of lights, that start going down after you press the button. It doesn't go down at a steady speed, every few lights seem to correspond to one traffic lights phase. If a phase is skipped, most lights go out at once, if a phase is extended, the countdown may pause for a while.

Even so, I don't get impatient as quickly when waiting for a bike light with a red light countdown. I think it's a reasonable solution, and could be used for pedestrian lights as well.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

I read that a highway near here (4 lanes each direction), in a busy area with multiple highway interchanges needs to be widened in order to reduce traffic jams. However, this is controversial because of the nature reserve next to the highway. Now some traffic design company said that it should be possible to turn the highway into a 2x6 lane one by using the median and also making each lane narrower. The narrower lanes mean that the Vmax should be reduced from 120km/h to 100km/h.

Now my question is, doesn't the speed reduction cause jams further back, thereby negating the effect of the extra lanes?

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Koesj posted:

If you're talking about the A27, there's wayyyy much more going on there than just a simple throughput problem.

As a matter of fact I am. I didn't want to make things too complicated so I tried to ask the question in a more general sense.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

In Holland, those separate right-turn lanes are sometimes combined with roundabouts. That way, there's still the advantages of the roundabout, but right-turning drivers never have to mix with roundabout traffic and they can make a much smoother turn.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Speaking of public transport in the States...



The author says:

quote:

For the pedantic rail enthusiasts, the definition of a subway used here is "a network containing high capacity grade-separated passenger rail transit lines which run frequently, serve an urban core, and are underground for at least part of their downtown route." For the rest of you, the definition is "an underground train in a city."

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

In Europe, right turn on red is typically not allowed. This can be because the separate bicycle path to the right can have a different green time. Or, as is the case more often, because they are afraid you will run into a car coming from another direction and also going to your right.

There are a few exceptions. In my country there's a sign that allows only bicycles to turn right on red. But I don't think it's ever allowed for cars, anywhere in Europe.

So that was quite confusing when I first visited the USA. We kept waiting for a green light when we were in the front and going to go right. At least, the people waiting behind us seemed more patient that European car drivers.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

PT6A posted:

What I remember about Europe was that they have many fewer lights and stop signs than North America.

Yes, that is true I think. Instead of traffic light intersections there are many roundabouts as well. Most countries have a clear system of roads having priority/right of way over other roads. This in turn means that many traffic lights and stop signs can be replaced by yield signs on one road and 'you have right of way' signs on the other.

Yield means drivers don't have to stop unless they see traffic coming their way, which means it saves drat expensive fuel compared to stop signs. Stop signs are ONLY used in cases where drivers can't see the intersecting road properly.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

I think I read about a stretch of unused/unfinished freeway (or another road type) in the UK that has been used to film car chase scenes and the like. Can't seem to find it right now, though.

UK/Ireland folks interested in unfinished and otherwise strange pieces of motorways might want to check Pathetic Motorways.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

MyFaceBeHi posted:

If its the one I'm thinking of it is a Motorway, just one you wouldnt use on a general commute. It should be on the Pathetic Motorways called the M96. I could link to it but I'm on my phone now.

That doesn't seem to be the one I remember. Still, it's interesting. Seems to be a place that's used for emergency practices, mostly. Here's a link.

When I think of horrible interchanges in the Netherlands, I first think of Hooipolder, the one between the A27 and A59 freeways.

What's basically going on is that all of a sudden the A59 gets a bunch of warning signals before the interchange, and then there are traffic lights. The interchange works like a regular diamond one, with the A59 being the 'minor' road. Of course, this causes delays for A59 through traffic. Furthermore, to the west there's a regular ramp to get into the town. The eastbound entrance ramp from the local town road has a horribly short merge lane.

A few years ago, they changed the junction somewhat. Coming from the west, the left-turn lanes have been extended and are separated from the other lanes from the start. This way, there's some more space to queue for the traffic lights, but it makes it impossible to legally get on the northbound A27 when you come from that entrance ramp from the local road.

As far as I understand, they would like to upgrade this interchange, but they never did it because of budget reasons.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

That's a bridge in the Netherlands. Wikipedia.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Cichlidae posted:

Like most cities in Europe, Paris predates the Roman empire.

I don't think this is true for 'most cities in Europe'. Most cities in Northwest Europe started in medieval times or later. The few cities that go back to Roman times are well known as historic sites, and often have a museum dedicated to the fact. Most settlements known from before that time have disappeared over the centuries.

Of course there are many more cities with a Roman history in Southern Europe, where the empire's influence was greater. But I still don't think it's true that 'most cities' predate the empire.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Cichlidae posted:

My ideal solution would be to pump gas taxes up to ~$5/gallon. People would move downtown really quick, and we'd have plenty of cash for new more-sustainable transportation infrastructure.

Did you know that gas prizes in Europe are about $8.80/gallon, at least in my country? The prizes keep going up, but this doesn't seem to reduce car traffic a lot.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Unless they fixed those, many of those problems are found around the Belgian big cities.

Also I'm reminded of this 'nice' one. Need to get from eastbound A59 to southbound A50? You leave the highway, take the roundabout on the N-road (local through road), take the traffic lights on the N-road, and then get back up another entrance ramp.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

The other day I read about some European 'experiment' called a Gyrobus.

A Gyrobus (pic) was a bus that used a flywheel and nothing but a flywheel for energy storage. Every bus stop had a loading station. This used high voltage to run an electric motor which in turn made a 1500 kg flywheel spin at 3000 rpm. It took between half a minute and a few minutes to get the flywheel spun up.

While driving, the flywheel's kinetic energy was turned into electricity again, used to run a 2nd electric motor connected to the wheels. It could go for 6 km or so at city speeds, before it needed recharging.

As you can guess, the Gyrobus had a lot of disadvantages. It was hard to go around corners because the flywheel acted as, well, a gyroscope. Usually, the stops were close enough for the bus to make it to the next one, but with heavy traffic and bumpy roads that wasn't always a certainty. And if it lost all power before the next stop, it had to be towed. Also, there were concerns about what would happen if a 1500kg flywheel with an external speed of 900km/h came loose.

After a few years they decided that if they wanted the advantages of electric vehicles, simple overhead lines were a better solution.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 30, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Well, using a flywheel to save fuel by regaining energy from braking is relatively common. It's used in some buses and high-end cars. But all those vehicles have another, primary source of energy, they aren't fully powered by the flywheel. That's why the Gyrobus is stupid, but a brake flywheel is a good idea.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Install Gentoo posted:

Is it really so hard to grasp the concept of "accidentally got into the wrong lane"?

Yes. Yes it is. As double lane roundabouts in Holland are usually designed as a so-called "Turbo roundabout".



The solid lines are usually actually small curbs. A turbo roundabout is designed so you can't really get in the wrong lane, and you can't go round more than once, because if you gently caress up you will be forced off at some point (often the last road before the one you came from). Each lane forms a sort of spiral. If people follow the arrows and signs from the start, they will end up where they need to be and they won't have to cross other traffic in the middle of the roundabout.

America, learn to design proper roundabouts.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

This Dutch site lists a bunch of designs based on the regular turbo (with drawings). Some of them seem to allow for u-turns from any direction. Also, the second from last entry shows an interchange based on the turbo.

Apparently, a traffic design 'rule' in Holland is that bikes are separated from cars on roundabouts wherever possible, but cars get right of way in rural areas, while cyclists get right of way in urban areas. There's no true traffic rule on that, so signage is always required.

Something that often causes a debate among Dutch drivers is how and when to signal turns while driving on a roundabout. One thing is clear: it is required by law to signal a right turn just before leaving a roundabout. But, do you signal left before entering the roundabout when you want to take the third exit? This means you turn off the signal and then signal a right turn while on the roundabout. The government says this is not required. In some other countries it's even forbidden to do so. In Holland it is not forbidden, and many driving instructors actually teach people to do it.

The opponents simply say it's very confusing. Why would you use a left turn signal when you never actually make a left turn? You turn right onto the roundabout and when you leave the roundabout you turn right again. Also, when you're not on the innermost lane on a regular multi-lane roundabout, a left signal is certainly confusing.

Proponents say that signalling left before entering a roundabout helps other drivers. For instance, if a truck driver who can't brake quickly approaches the roundabout from the south, and he sees a car entering the roundabout from the north, he has to decide whether to stop or not. If the car goes left, he has to stop. If the car goes right or straight ahead, there is no need for the truck to stop. If car drivers always signal left in time if they want to go that way, the truck driver in this example knows if a car is going to cross his path or not.

So what's best? Signal left or not?

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Ephphatha posted:

Here in Australia we get a few provisions, as long as you aren't travelling significantly faster than other vehicles and you don't have a speedo you're not going to get a ticket for speeding on a bicycle. If you have a GPS or something else mounted that shows speed, or it's obvious you're travelling faster than cars/motorbikes who are travelling the speed limit, you're getting booked.

Before I read the second sentence, I was wondering for a second why you only get a ticket if you cycle too fast while wearing swimming briefs.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

This reminds me of a short documentary I saw about a relatively young company in Brussels. Apparently, Brussels was designed for cars. For a small volume of cars. It can't cope with the current amount, so it horrible to drive through. It's not very bike-friendly either, but if you're a competent cyclist you can get through quite well.

Anyway, this company is a very simple city delivery company. You can call them to get your package and to get it delivered to any other place in the city. According to the documentary, customers simply couldn't believe that it was possible at all to get a package to the other side of the city that fast. They thought they were getting pranked. Bikes can be real useful in congested cities.

You can watch the documentary right here:

https://vimeo.com/41982043

E: If you watch it in large, you can read the subtitles whenever someone is not speaking English.
Edit 2: They also talk about how municipal traffic control (and politics) affects the gridlock problem. A previous mayor of Copenhagen is giving a bunch of very interesting suggestions to improve Brussels and similar cities. If you're interested in that kind of stuff, you might want to watch the documentary as well.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jun 13, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Lead out in cuffs posted:

but I think it shows that you can't just put up signage / make roads that you know won't actually work, and then expect to be protected legally when people get hurt.

I'm not sure if it's a case of law or a case of common decency, but in Holland, if a road owner (city, province, country) just puts speed limit signs on a road that's clearly designed for higher speeds, the police usually won't enforce the posted limit. Often, when the owner wants to slow down traffic on a road (for instance because it's the old road through the city and there's a new ring road freeway) the road owner will combine the speed limit signs with traffic calming measures like bumps and narrowing parts of the road. In that case the police will enforce again.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

So today I received a letter from the local government, apparently sent to everyone living in the area.

They are turning a standard traffic light intersection into a roundabout, but this project has been going on since autumn, and after they closed off everything and removed much of the old road, the whole thing seemed to stop. They promised it would be done this month, but it clearly isn't done yet. It's all quite annoying because it's one of the major local roads.

Anyway, the letter says that before they could build the new road, the natural gas company had to remove an old pipe which was under some part of the intersection. The town council had agreed with the gas company that this should be finished in May. The gas company actually finished their work last week.

Now that that's been done, the contractor can finish their work on the intersection. Usually, this wouldn't be finished before the builders go on holiday (for some reason the country has a few set weeks every year on which nearly all building work stops), but the town council apparently got them to work on weekends as well, which means it will be finished before the holiday.

The letter also said that the government doesn't really have any way to make the gas company keep their promises. Council members will have a talk with the company about the delay, but it won't change much.

So, assuming that the letter is a honest report of events, it seems that
- The town council is trying their best to minimize road blocks.
- The road contractor is doing their work properly.
- They are gonna save some time by working on weekends.
- The town council is also nice enough to keep their citizens informed.
- The gas company consists of a bunch of assholes who can't keep promises and cause delays that are troublesome for everyone involved.
- The government can't do anything to 'punish' the gas company.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

The one time I visited the States, we happened to get caught in one of those Arizona summer 'storms'. Those things are short but strong. It's like all of a sudden someone keeps dropping helicopterfulls of water on you. You literally can't see more than a few meters in front of you. I've seen one of those only once in my own country. It was so dangerous/difficult to drive that a lot of cars actually stopped to the side of the road to wait it out. Most others just drove really slowly.

So, in Arizona, we were on a highway and slowed down to an appropriate speed for those weather conditions, and it was still kinda tricky. And then big trucks started passing us. At full highway speed. The water they splashed up made it even harder to see anything. I was really quite scared then. It's so easy to lose control and start slipping when a dry road suddenly gets really wet. Made me wonder if American (truck) drivers are crazy.

Land of the free. Yes.

If I remember right it was the I-40, near the Petrified Forest which we were visiting that day.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Baronjutter posted:

Something as simple as taking out the parking and turning it into a normal 2-lane street with a little bike lane on both sides would probably get the job done. What's the advantage to blocking it off like that?

Well, you can spend days laughing at drivers who don't update their GPS and ignore 'dead end' signs. Trucks getting stuck at the end, having to back out, causing a traffic jam, drivers looking around being confused, then driving into another local road and getting lost there... it's great. :haw:

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

The reason why you shouldn't combine bike paths and sidewalks is explained here. Please read the explanation below the comic as well.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Here in Holland it's actually illegal to cycle on the sidewalk for anyone over 8 years old. The penalty is something like 50 euros if they decide to catch you (which is more likely in the big cities, I guess).

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Lead out in cuffs posted:

As far as I know, pretty much all the studies (except those coming from the Netherlands) show a decrease in car accidents (or an increase in accidents but decrease in severity), but an increase in cyclist and pedestrian injuries. The reason the ones in the Netherlands work is because they design them with dedicated lanes for pedestrians and cyclists outside of the circle, with the peds and cyclists having priority.

Well... that's mostly true. There's also roundabouts like that where cars have priority over peds and cyclists. Usually that's made clear with signs and 'shark teeth' (yield marks on the ground). There's some conflicting information about that on the internet. It seems that the car priority ones occur more often outside towns, but cyclist priority becomes more and more common.

Some sites state that a close reading of the law suggests that even if cars have priority, that's only true when entering the roundabout. When leaving it, cyclists staying on the roundabout always have priority. That's a very confusing situation, which is usually prevented with signage.

I also found that some study showed that dedicated lanes with cyclist priority is theoretically less safe than dedicated lanes with car priority. However, cyclists going straight ahead always have priority over turning cars in regular intersections, so car priority would break uniformity. Additionally, regardless of priority, cyclists don't like to stop, especially if they have to go the long way 'round already. So in practice, there isn't really a difference in safety between those two options. An older theoretical study confirms that it doesn't matter much.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Aug 2, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

The most famous horrible traffic circle in Europe I know is the Place Charles the Gaulle around the Arc de Triomphe in Paris. overhead view and streetview. Some weird photo artefact in the sky there. French UFO. Whatever.

It's a twelve-way (?) intersection, the circle is wide enough for many cars, but there aren't any lanes and people just drive wherever. I heard that French insurance companies actually put a specific clause in their contracts that cars aren't insured while on that one traffic circle. I have no idea how many accidents per day happen there, but I do know that if you decide to drive there, you can expect to leave the place with a few new dents in your car.

E: Did I mention that Parisians in practice seem to use the priority rule "whoever goes first, goes first" and you have to show the exact right level of boldness to get through to the right exit without causing a jam? Nobody really seems to know what that level is. It all boils down to survival of the 'fittest'.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Aug 3, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

A few historic walled cities in Holland that never grew big but are tourist attractions just block all roads into the old city during the day. There's lots of parking space just outside the city. In the evening, delivery trucks etc. can come in. I'm not sure if residents can get through the road barriers at any time with a card or something.

Those city centers haven't changed much in centuries, meaning they have really narrow cobblestone roads and lots of centuries-old houses. I can understand why they might not want cars in there, especially when it's full of pedestrian tourists.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

It depends. If the limit is a hard enforce, what if you need to speed up for a short amount of time to overtake a truck, or even to prevent an accident? It would be horrible if the pedal just isn't responsive because you're driving at the limit.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

They sometimes put ugly pieces of modern art in the middle of roundabouts in the Netherlands, I don't know if that counts.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

There was talk about the Dutch approach to bicycles before in this thread. Well, The Boston Globe did a piece about that.

Article with photos
Video with some explanations by Dutch traffic folks. Please accept my humble apologies for the horrible English showcased by my fellow countrypeople.

And they translated part of a bicycle theory exam 6th graders often take (no, it's not obligatory). You can try the exam here, if you like. However, it seems the Boston Globe folks lost a lot of subtleties here. Some of their answers are completely wrong except in some specific situations, and the picture are too small to see what's happening. There's also at least one case where the answer is not backed up by law, it's just the common interpretation of a certain situation.

I could talk a bit more about that if you like, but I think there's other Dutch people following this thread who are better at pointing out errors than I am.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

One other thing about the quiz is that the 'fietsstraat' has no basis in law. Those signs aren't even in the official road rules thing.

Dutch link, check 'juridisch'. So I have no idea how they decide what the rules on these streets are other than by common interpretation. Apparently, Belgium does have a law about the bike streets.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

dupersaurus posted:

That ties into something I've wondered about before: how much does the local area's ability to produce asphalt and concrete affect the time you can build stuff in?

I thought you could transport concrete quite far with those mixer trucks, but Wikipedia says that even when it's constantly stirred, it has to be used in 90 minutes. Those things aren't too fast, so a max radius of perhaps 100 - 150 km from the plant? So you need a plant for every 200 km wide area, which isn't a problem for urban areas, but I can see that being a problem for the really rural parts.

I guess you could always just mix the cement powder and water on the spot if you need to, that would remove any distance limits on transport.

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

When a freeway-freeway intersection still has traffic lights, and it's been ready to be converted into a cloverleaf for yearsdecades, but the government is too cheap to actually do it, you know what can happen?

These pictures say enough, I think.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 9, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

E: Meh, disregard.

Carbon dioxide fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 15, 2013

Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

They installed a steel bar just in front of the bridge, so trucks drive into that instead of into the bridge. That way the bridge doesn't get damaged as often and the railway can keep functioning.

Also, the 11foot8.com FAQ notes that supply trucks need to reach the side street right before the bridge, and closing off streets would make businesses unhappy.

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Carbon dioxide
Oct 9, 2012

Also remember that if in Holland someone driving in a 'protected' vehicle (i.e. car) hits someone on a lower-tier unprotected vehicle (bicycle), the person driving the car is automatically fully responsible for any damages, even if they had right of way. They have to pay up unless they can prove it was actively the cyclists fault, and even then the judge may decide 50/50 because of circumstances.

They say it's fair because the cyclists is in the weaker position. I don't know if that's true. I do know that it makes cars drive a lot more cautious than they would, otherwise. That's a very good thing.

Of course, there's some bicyclists who figure no monetary damages = not possible to get hurt, so this law makes them cocky. Well, you just can't help every single idiot, I guess.

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