|
I thought Orton's match with Sheamus at HiaC was really good.  e:  Thanks bro vvv
SHVPS4DETH fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Apr 12, 2011 |
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 17:35 |
|
|
jeffersonlives posted:Orton has basically never had a particularly good match as a face. He works too slowly to show good face fire, his comebacks suck, his character doesn't fit as a face, and his selling is just abysmal. He's a very good heel and he really needs to be one because it's not like this is the first time he's pretty much flopped in this role. Agreed, his first run as champ when he became de-facto face when Trips gave him the "thumbs down" was not very memorable. He works terrific as a heel because he's smug, vicious and takes his time to hurt his opponent and does not care. It's the dilemma that always pops up. A guy gets over as a heel so they think turning him face will keep him over but the dynamic rarely works unless it's a full turn and the guy can actually pull it off. Orton is fantastic as a heel, I will never deny that. Boring as a face. E: ^^^ you mean HIAC?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:25
|
|
|
I thought his face run when he won the title was his best character, tied with ONN/Legend Killer Orton. He was the most exciting in the ring and seemed to be having the most fun.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:27
|
|
|
Has any wrestler in history had more official shirt designs released than John Cena? Just doing a google image search shows that he's got at least 20 different shirts that have been available during his career.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:29
|
|
|
weekly font posted:I thought his face run when he won the title was his best character, tied with ONN/Legend Killer Orton. He was the most exciting in the ring and seemed to be having the most fun. Orton's run right before he turned face with the Foley and Benoit feuds was phenomenal. His entire face run in that period was the Triple H feud which was the shits IMO.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:29
|
|
|
jeffersonlives posted:Orton's run right before he turned face with the Foley and Benoit feuds was phenomenal. His entire face run in that period was the Triple H feud which was the shits IMO. I don't blame that on Orton's character, I blame that on Trips booking that feud into poo poo city.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:31
|
|
|
Keep in mind that as boring he is as a face, he is incredibly over. I am not saying that justifies his boringness, I am not Vince McMahon. We just have to appreciate that those that do like him seem very much impressed by his broody routine and one-note alpha male anti-heroism. EDIT: CM Funk posted:I thought Orton's match with Sheamus at HiaC was really good. Was that the one with the inexplicable 'Irish Curse on the steps' spot? RacistGuidingLight fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:32
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:Has any wrestler in history had more official shirt designs released than John Cena? Just doing a google image search shows that he's got at least 20 different shirts that have been available during his career.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:34
|
|
|
Fucken_Gieux posted:Keep in mind that as boring he is as a face, he is incredibly over. Orton wins almost every match in dominant fashion and is positioned as the superior guy even in the very rare matches he loses. He is presented as the second biggest star in the company in every angle. Frankly, considering Orton's push level and how much momentum he had about a year ago, he should really be a lot bigger than he is, but that's another discussion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:41
|
|
|
jeffersonlives posted:Orton wins almost every match in dominant fashion and is positioned as the superior guy even in the very rare matches he loses. He is presented as the second biggest star in the company in every angle. Frankly, considering Orton's push level and how much momentum he had about a year ago, he should really be a lot bigger than he is, but that's another discussion. Everything should've been coming up millhouse for the three guys in Legacy but ffffffff
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:43
|
|
|
I'd say Orton a year ago was way more over than Orton now. The crowds ate out of his hands and everything he did was molten. That's not to say he isn't really over now, but at the time, I think a lot of people felt that he'd soon overtake Cena as the top face in the promotion once his turn was cemented. I think it was the title win at NoC that kind of took the wind out of the sails, because it didn't really seem like that huge of a moment/payoff and kinda felt like it came out of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:45
|
|
|
MassRayPer posted:Humor is subjective, but he doesn't really know poo poo about wrestling in general. His Benoit book is some of the most atrocious stuff ever put on paper and sold in stores. He gets basic facts wrong, gets the timeline wrong in hilarious ways and is just an idiot. All of his books are this way. He's just awful when it comes to knowing anything about wrestling. If you like his humor and opinions, fine. But the guy has no clue about the history and present of professional wrestling. I'll second this. I bought it at Borders on sale because I had heard of the name and was interested in reading about problems in wrestling. A couple chapters in I was wondering if anyone had even edited it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:49
|
|
|
jeffersonlives posted:Orton wins almost every match in dominant fashion and is positioned as the superior guy even in the very rare matches he loses. He is presented as the second biggest star in the company in every angle. Frankly, considering Orton's push level and how much momentum he had about a year ago, he should really be a lot bigger than he is, but that's another discussion. No, that is a good point pertaining to this discussion. Is Orton's success really due to people rallying around a winner?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 00:57
|
|
|
Fucken_Gieux posted:No, that is a good point pertaining to this discussion. Is Orton's success really due to people rallying around a winner? Whether you like or dislike Orton, he's gotten all the best talent in the company to work with, and whether he's playing the arrogant prettyboy or the sociopathic career-killer, those are both pretty great characters when done right. When he started turning on his own stable, something told me he could have been the next Austin. I didn't really allow myself to think that openly just because the market really isn't there and probably won't ever again. But it was sort of a nuanced, merciless babyface that had a lot of magnetism with crowds. I still really enjoy the character and think he brings it in the ring, but I appear to be in the minority, so yeah. With regular fans, his character and his ring abilities are probably what keeps him over even when they try to cheese him out with a lovely Cena angle. I've never really seen a significant drop in quality in his style from heel to face, like the sort we get with Edge, who should never ever ever be a face and I mean ever. And I love good powerslams so I am probably impartial as far as that goes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 01:55
|
|
|
I read somewhere that during commercial breaks on RAW the wrestlers 'literally do nothing'. What does this mean? Do they just stop the match, or are they in rest holds the whole time?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 03:50
|
|
|
Michael Corleone posted:I read somewhere that during commercial breaks on RAW the wrestlers 'literally do nothing'. What does this mean? Do they just stop the match, or are they in rest holds the whole time?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 03:55
|
|
|
Michael Corleone posted:I read somewhere that during commercial breaks on RAW the wrestlers 'literally do nothing'. What does this mean? Do they just stop the match, or are they in rest holds the whole time? It will probably be a rest hold. TV viewers will likely miss at most one real spot (which is replayed) and perhaps find a face who was in control before the break suddenly being beaten on by the heel. There was a time when they didn't do commercials during matches and it was definitely an unwelcome change when it happened. Things become crunched enough that sometimes the jobbing wrestler doesn't get a televised entrance or an entrance at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 04:57
|
|
|
OneThousandMonkeys posted:There was a time when they didn't do commercials during matches and it was definitely an unwelcome change when it happened. Things become crunched enough that sometimes the jobbing wrestler doesn't get a televised entrance or an entrance at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 05:21
|
|
|
jeffersonlives posted:Orton wins almost every match in dominant fashion and is positioned as the superior guy even in the very rare matches he loses. He is presented as the second biggest star in the company in every angle. Frankly, considering Orton's push level and how much momentum he had about a year ago, he should really be a lot bigger than he is, but that's another discussion. To me, he's "the guy who can win from nowhere." Punk had him dead-to-rights at WM, but it just took one RKO at the very end for Orton to win. Bourne was about to SSP him when Orton popped up and RKO'd him. As much as Cena gets called out for "getting beat up for 20 minutes, pops back up and wins in 60 seconds," I'm surprise people don't call out Orton as much. I don't pop for the RKO like I did for the Diamond Cutter.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 15:05
|
|
|
CobiWann posted:As much as Cena gets called out for "getting beat up for 20 minutes, pops back up and wins in 60 seconds," I'm surprise people don't call out Orton as much. That's pretty much how every WWE match goes these days.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 15:36
|
|
|
Mr. Carlisle posted:Has any wrestler in history had more official shirt designs released than John Cena? Just doing a google image search shows that he's got at least 20 different shirts that have been available during his career. Didnt Goldberg have a poo poo ton of shirts?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 15:36
|
|
|
I dislike Orton. His style of delivery on the mic is as boring as his ring entrances. Long pauses, with a lot of blank stares. Showing no emotion is not something wrestlers should try unless their name is Undertaker. That and some of the spots he does in every single match are just plain silly. "Ohhh, I'm a viper... gonna punch the mat harder than I punch my opponents. I'm getting angry! Watch me rub my head with my hands and make silly faces again."  That's not to say all of his matches are terrible. He's a decent worker. It just gets tiresome to watch him do the same things during most of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 15:43
|
|
|
Orton's heel character was a believable sociopath, genuinely willing to do anything to further his own goals. At times he could pull off mental instability, which worked well against people he couldn't naturally beat. Admittedly, some of my enjoyment came from the fact that he would punk out the Super Faces; seeing an unbelievable superhero taken down is always pleasant for me, so I enjoyed Heel Orton. Orton's face character suddenly throws ground-punching temper tantrums in the ring like a child, which people on this board inexplicably defend as anything other than laughable and pathetic. He now pops up and no-sells on the level of Cena, which is something he rarely did as a heel. He cuts promos about loving his family in the same breath that he says he will show us a new level of violence. He was mediocre on the mic when talking down to Legacy, but he is ABYSMAL as a face promo. His face character is a loving parody of his badass heel persona, and is basically identical to their super faces except that he doesn't kiss babies. He's completely unbelievable and I am embarrassed anytime he cuts a promo. You can argue that this isn't Orton's fault, but since when are we talking about Orton as a person? Orton as a character is dog poo poo and I cannot stand him. I still enjoy the RKO out of nowhere, but as a heel he did it in situations that were genuinely surprising. As a face, his opponents make moronic decisions that damage their character. CM Punk is an intelligent and manipulative heel, not a monster heel; he shouldn't lose by jumping head-first at Orton like a loving moron. As a heel, Orton used every trick in the book to assure his victory, even to the point of building a horsemen-style stable. As a face, he's just better than everyone, which is boring. As a result, he will never see a dollar or hear a clap from me. I will never cheer anyone that does the Hogan no-sell, so Orton and Cena are automatically garbage in my eyes until they cut that out. dromal phrenia fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:05
|
|
|
Orton as a face is fine. The whole point of his character is that you can beat him down as much as you like, you can take out his legs so that he cant punt, but he could always hit an RKO at any moment and win the match. So that with him willing to take out anyone in his way and being slightly psycho, means you constantly have to be on guard around him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:25
|
|
ABOUT DRUGS posted:seeing an unbelievable superhero taken down is always pleasant for me, so I enjoyed Heel Orton. Orton's face character is fine, and you're acting like it's Orton's fault and not the writing. He's not quite on Super Cena I-just-took-a-DDT-on-pavement-but-I-can-still-win-2vs1-in-30-seconds level, so stop exaggerating. He still wins his matches by hitting RKOs out of nowhere, not completely no-selling.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:37
|
|
|
Sionistic posted:Orton as a face is fine. The whole point of his character is that you can beat him down as much as you like, you can take out his legs so that he cant punt, but he could always hit an RKO at any moment and win the match. So that with him willing to take out anyone in his way and being slightly psycho, means you constantly have to be on guard around him. I remember a kayfabe interview or promo with either Austin or Shawn Michaels (I forget who) where they said that it was great having a finisher that could come out of nowhere, but the tradeoff was that it wouldn't always put an opponent away for a 3 count unless they'd beaten the opponent up a bit first. It kind of takes a lot of drama out of a match if one guy has a move that can be hit from anywhere at any time and instantly win.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:43
|
|
|
Wojtek posted:You could've just posted this. Let me guess, you love CM Punk, ADR, & Jericho too? You want to see a DB or JoMo heel turn? Zack Ryder is the most underutilized talent ever? Orton was beaten to hell by multiple people in the New Nexus, he immediately had a match that he won. Then he fought off the rest of the New Nexus. It was ridiculous and served no purpose. Orton should have won at Wrestlemania, but he shouldn't have also won every week leading up to Wrestlemania.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 16:54
|
|
|
ABOUT DRUGS posted:As a heel, Orton used every trick in the book to assure his victory, even to the point of building a horsemen-style stable. As a face, he's just better than everyone, which is boring. As a result, he will never see a dollar or hear a clap from me. I will never cheer anyone that does the Hogan no-sell, so Orton and Cena are automatically garbage in my eyes until they cut that out. Just curious, do you enjoy the puroresu style, "No sell a big move, kick out at one and immediately attack the guy with a big move THEN goto selling" spot?
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:00
|
|
|
That is a bigger problem with how they book the Nexus/Corre than how they book Orton. Nexus dudes don't even look like a threat ever, so I don't know why you think they would be credible versus a top guy like Orton.
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:00
|
|
|
Wojtek posted:That is a bigger problem with how they book the Nexus/Corre than how they book Orton. Nexus dudes don't even look like a threat ever, so I don't know why you think they would be credible versus a top guy like Orton. Because he sold the beatdown as something very real, was barely able to stand before the match started, then went on to win and intimidate the entire rest of the stable that just beat the poo poo out of him and dominated the entire feud. The final match was good, but it should have been Orton overcoming all the adversity to finally get the big win over Punk, not Punk getting a lucky hit in a couple weeks before Wrestlemania.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:07
|
|
|
Wojtek posted:Orton's face character is fine, and you're acting like it's Orton's fault and not the writing. He's not quite on Super Cena I-just-took-a-DDT-on-pavement-but-I-can-still-win-2vs1-in-30-seconds level, so stop exaggerating. He still wins his matches by hitting RKOs out of nowhere, not completely no-selling. He DOES regularly no-sell the damage that's been done to him. You mentioned Morisson, who has done his ridiculous gymnastic offence one-legged, while Orton only sells until the comeback. That's a problem for me. Cobiwann said that the RKO doesn't have the same feel as the Diamond Cutter - that's because Orton just HAPPENS to catch people in the RKO. Diamond Cutters came from Powerbomb setups, samoan drop setups, superplex setups and so forth. Page would hit you with a cutter in the midst of an entirely different move! The RKO happens when some shlub jumps head-first at Randy like they forgot all about his magical match-ending finisher. It's cool if you still like him but I've been calling him Blandy Boreton since before he turned face and it's more true now than ever, despite the fact that the joke is lame as hell.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2011 17:56
|
|
|
I never felt Orton was believable in his role as a psycho/unstable heel. For me, this was the heel role Randy was most suited for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo-2XqSnOOo&feature=related Now this, I could utterly believe this was Randy Orton.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 01:26
|
|
|
The problem is that even though Orton's character is a "psycho who will snap on anyone," that's just the commentary drilling that into our heads. They're telling us, not showing us. He should be the guy who helps someone punk Alberto Del Rio, and then just says "gently caress it" and RKOs the face. The last time I can recall Orton actually being a psycho who would snap on anyone (and, therefore, having a personality) is when he was randomly punting McMahons because he felt like it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 01:58
|
|
|
Timby posted:when he was randomly punting McMahons because he felt like it. Even better, he was randomly punting McMahons because he HAD to. He just couldn't stop himself.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 03:22
|
|
|
THE GAYEST POSTER posted:Even better, he was randomly punting McMahons because he HAD to. He just couldn't stop himself. It's because he had something he had been living with his entire life. herpes
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 03:41
|
|
|
What happened to Kaval?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 04:15
|
|
|
Beer_Suitcase posted:What happened to Kaval? Future endeavored about a month and a half ago. Edit: Actually, it has to be longer than that. I think he was released around the tail end of January.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 04:17
|
|
|
Beer_Suitcase posted:What happened to Kaval? WWE buried him for getting over, then they came to a mutual release agreement. He's back on the indies as Low Ki.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 04:18
|
|
|
Beer_Suitcase posted:What happened to Kaval? He was losing fairly regularly and there were reports he had heat. He decided to be proactive and went and asked people backstage if this was the case, they assured him it was not. He then asked why he was constantly losing and not even getting to look all that good, and whether or not they had any plans to use him whatsoever. They told him that they did not, and he decided that rather than stick around for a couple of years hoping that they'd eventually get around to using him, he'd just quit and go wrestle somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 04:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 17:35 |
|
|
Timby posted:Future endeavored about a month and a half ago. It was the end of December.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2011 04:42
|
|