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LividLiquid posted:That book is also full of glaring inaccuracies. I have old Nitros on tape that they talk about and poo poo happens very, very differently on more-than-a-few instances. Have any handy examples? I believe you, I just can't check for myself. I trust the book to be accurate to the spirit of the circumstances, if not the strict facts.
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Aug 14, 2009 00:31
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LividLiquid posted:That book is also full of glaring inaccuracies. I have old Nitros on tape that they talk about and poo poo happens very, very differently on more-than-a-few instances. Plus, as much as I hate to agree with Kevin Nash, WCW's parent company going down the shitter had way more to do with the death of WCW than anyone's booking did. Russo did make their TV unwatchable from pretty much the moment he got the book, though.
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Aug 14, 2009 00:34
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CombineThresher posted:Plus, as much as I hate to agree with Kevin Nash, WCW's parent company going down the shitter had way more to do with the death of WCW than anyone's booking did. Russo did make their TV unwatchable from pretty much the moment he got the book, though. Which is what the book completely admits
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Aug 14, 2009 00:35
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CombineThresher posted:Plus, as much as I hate to agree with Kevin Nash, WCW's parent company going down the shitter had way more to do with the death of WCW than anyone's booking did. Russo did make their TV unwatchable from pretty much the moment he got the book, though.
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Aug 14, 2009 01:19
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Axissillian posted:Which is what the book completely admits Indeed. The book is basically, "X happened, X was stupid/insane/ridiculous/borderline criminal, but WCW could have survived. Then Jamie Kellner happened, and if your first thought is 'who the gently caress is Jamie Kellner?' you have a lot in common with a lot of WCW employees the day they were told WCW was suddenly effectively dead."
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Aug 14, 2009 01:20
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CombineThresher posted:Plus, as much as I hate to agree with Kevin Nash, WCW's parent company going down the shitter had way more to do with the death of WCW than anyone's booking did. You, Nash, Kevin Sullivan, and many others can't see the forrest through the trees. The argument that Kellner/AOL/the accountant's didn't want wrestling is part of the issue, but the main reason is that they didn't want a huge money-loser as part of the merged company. WCW still got good ratings for cable TV, but had giant contracts and was millions in the red. Hell, if Kellner knew details about WCW he would know that the contracts were heavily favored towards the talent and the business only had a few years of profitability in the decade or so Turner owned it. So, if the AOL merger hadn't happened and Turner was in charge forever WCW may not have died. However, if WCW had better ratings, better contracts, and better booking it could have been a profitable business. Then Kellner/AOL/accountants would have looked at the company and seen green, instead of seeing a trainwreck and dumping it. Kellner was the final nail in a coffin that had slowly been being built in the 1980s when Jim Crockett Promotions begain failing to manage their money. WeaselWeaz fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Aug 14, 2009 |
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Aug 14, 2009 01:54
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WeaselWeaz posted:So, if the AOL merger hadn't happened and Turner was in charge forever WCW may not have died. However, if WCW had better ratings, better contracts, and better booking it could have been a profitable business. Then Kellner/AOL/accountants would have looked at the company and seen black Correct me if I am wrong but did WCW ever turn a profit?
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Aug 14, 2009 01:56
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, instead of seeing a trainwreck and dumping it.
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Really, all Kellner did was follow a Turner directive to get the ratings back up, he looked at the money being spent on WCW, saw that the ratings were in the loving tank and the WWF was ruling the world, and he then said, "poo poo, we're hosed, liquidate the drat thing and get some cash flowing in here." I'm not saying he was wrong, but it was indeed potentially short-sighted, since WWF/E programming started a pretty nasty decline as soon as Vince was the only game in town. That was the problem with giving the keys to the kingdom to a numbers guy, same with Brad What's-his-face (I can't remember the name, despite writing for WrestleLine at the time).
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Aug 14, 2009 01:57
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Axissillian posted:Correct me if I am wrong but did WCW ever turn a profit? From what I remember, WCW made money during the first few years of the nWo. The problem is, Turner's money was a double-edged sword. WCW had the money to offer guys huge contracts, and Bischoff wasn't the first guy running WCW to do so. The problem was, since it wasn't the WCW VP's money and Turner didn't care they just made huge guarenteed money deals to greedily snatch up talent instead of smart deals that could protect the company. For example, after Scott Steiner cut a shoot promo on Ric Flair on live TV he was suspended (or for something else, I forget the exact circumstances). However, he still received a gently caress-ton of money, so the Turner accountants were pissed that he wasn't being used. Contrast this with real wrestling promoters, including Vince McMahon. If the business lost money they also lost money, so they avoided signing deals that put them in a bad position or put them under the thumb of the wrestlers. Also, most people think green = money, so it's easier to just use that term. Which is also correct, and used more often in wrestling. Timby posted:I'm not saying he was wrong, but it was indeed potentially short-sighted, since WWF/E programming started a pretty nasty decline as soon as Vince was the only game in town. That was the problem with giving the keys to the kingdom to a numbers guy, same with Brad What's-his-face (I can't remember the name, despite writing for WrestleLine at the time). The decline in ratings was due to brand loyalty, a lower-quality product, and Vince disregarding the WCW fanbase. None of that is Kellner's fault. As for giving the keys to a numbers guy, if that happened earlier WCW may not have been in as bad shape when WCW was sold. The wrestling guys didn't give a poo poo about the bottom line because it wasn't their money. They figured the checks would roll in forever because Billionaire Ted loved his rasslin. WeaselWeaz fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Aug 14, 2009 |
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Aug 14, 2009 02:06
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The weird thing about RD Reynold's book is that it never mentions the creation of the WolfPack. Not once does it mention the anti-NWO that still had Kevin Nash running it, and such great lyrics as "Don't turn your back on the wolfpack (36x)". Also, it could've gone into some of the terrible angles a little more, but I guess he expected people to buy his other books (Wrestlecrap! and Book of Lists). But not mentioning the Wolfpack was odd.
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Aug 14, 2009 06:13
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It also had the problem where it would explain some very simple concepts of wrestling, implying it wasn't written for smarts, but then it would mention other things that even most smarks don't know about and act like they're common knowledge. The book had no idea who it was trying to reach.
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Aug 14, 2009 07:55
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LividLiquid posted:It also had the problem where it would explain some very simple concepts of wrestling, implying it wasn't written for smarts, but then it would mention other things that even most smarks don't know about and act like they're common knowledge. That's a bit of an extreme statement. I mean, sure there are inaccuracies--and at times downright mind-scratching errors--but on the whole the Death of WCW is a fantastic read. And indeed, there is much more good than bad in the book. Or are we talking about one of RD's other books?
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Aug 14, 2009 08:08
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Nope. I've only read Death of WCW. As I said before, though, I loved the book. It just bugged me sometimes.
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Aug 14, 2009 08:26
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I'm guessing the strange errors were parts inspired by RD rather than Alvarez who tends to have his poo poo together. Well, his memory is his weak spot, but, how could that matter here?
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Aug 14, 2009 08:33
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I have reason to believe (wrestlecrap books) that if Alvarez wasn't on board, Death of WCW would be just as much of a clusterfuck as WCW itself
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Aug 14, 2009 09:35
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Jamie Kellner was responsible not only for the demise of WCW but the cancellation of Animaniacs, Freakazoid, Pinky and the Brain and more. He is an evil evil man.
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Aug 14, 2009 12:35
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reality_groove posted:Jamie Kellner was responsible not only for the demise of WCW but the cancellation of Animaniacs, Freakazoid, Pinky and the Brain and more. He is an evil evil man. So Jamie Kellner pretty much killed my childhood then. Well, when I lose the will to live, I know who I'm taking with me. Pinky and the Brain will get vengeance!
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Aug 14, 2009 12:40
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reality_groove posted:Jamie Kellner was responsible not only for the demise of WCW but the cancellation of Animaniacs, Freakazoid, Pinky and the Brain and more. He is an evil evil man. Jamie Kellner also helped The Simpsons, In Living Color and Married with Children succeed, though... 
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Aug 14, 2009 13:14
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nyratk1 posted:Jamie Kellner also helped ... Married with Children succeed reality_groove posted:He is an evil evil man.
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Aug 14, 2009 13:40
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Ziggy Tsardust posted:Terry Rakolta account found
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Aug 14, 2009 14:04
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I've just finished reading Jericho's autobiography again. Does anyone know where I could see "Strange Kentucky People"? He said it made the rounds on the tape trading circuit so someone must have uploaded it by now!
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Aug 14, 2009 14:14
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Beautiful Ninja posted:So Jamie Kellner pretty much killed my childhood then. Well, when I lose the will to live, I know who I'm taking with me. Pinky and the Brain will get vengeance! Narf, poitz, BINK!
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Aug 14, 2009 16:01
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WeaselWeaz posted:You, Nash, Kevin Sullivan, and many others can't see the forest through the trees. The argument that Kellner/AOL/the accountant's didn't want wrestling is part of the issue, but the main reason is that they didn't want a huge money-loser as part of the merged company. WCW still got good ratings for cable TV, but had giant contracts and was millions in the red. Hell, if Kellner knew details about WCW he would know that the contracts were heavily favored towards the talent and the business only had a few years of profitability in the decade or so Turner owned it. My point is more that AOL/Time-Warner itself was poorly run, and it's hard to expect one subsidiary to survive that much bloodletting once the stock prices plummeted. It didn't help that no one at Turner really wanted wrestling around anymore, and would rather spend more money on "classier" programming with less of a return. I'll grant you the point about contracts, but were those even under Russo's jurisdiction? He was making the TV unwatchable, but I didn't think he was responsible for signing people or negotiating their money.
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Aug 14, 2009 16:02
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CombineThresher posted:My point is more that AOL/Time-Warner itself was poorly run, and it's hard to expect one subsidiary to survive that much bloodletting once the stock prices plummeted. It didn't help that no one at Turner really wanted wrestling around anymore, and would rather spend more money on "classier" programming with less of a return. Your history is off, AOL/Time-Warner wanted WCW gone immedietly, before things started going bad. I believe some contracts were, specifically Mike Awesome. But I'm not blaming Russo for the death of WCW either. He was just another nail in the coffin and no one person is responsible for WCW's death.
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Aug 14, 2009 16:41
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I never watched WCW so what strikes me as odd is considering how it nearly buried the WWF at the time how nobody mentions anything positive about it. What I percieve as good: - The NWO angle before it got run into the ground - Sting in the rafters - Cruiserweights being used - Making use of talent like Benoit, Eddie, Jericho - It had some big names when WWF lost contracts (Hogan, Hart etc.) Erm . . is that it? Really, how did it eclipse WWF for so long, what were the good parts of WCW?
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Aug 14, 2009 17:01
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Fallon posted:I never watched WCW so what strikes me as odd is considering how it nearly buried the WWF at the time how nobody mentions anything positive about it. At the time it had much higher production values, live every week unlike WWF, it was longer, had a wider variety of wrestling, tons of bigger names, and had a white hot angle in the nWo which was the first time that Hogan was playing a bad guy. Plus I'm sure the 3 minute jumpstart WCW had probably played a bit of a hand.
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Aug 14, 2009 17:06
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grody but still def posted:At the time it had much higher production values, live every week unlike WWF, it was longer, had a wider variety of wrestling, tons of bigger names, and had a white hot angle in the nWo which was the first time that Hogan was playing a bad guy. Plus I'm sure the 3 minute jumpstart WCW had probably played a bit of a hand. Did somebody say "3 minutes"? I thought it was Raw that had the 3 minute jumpstart. I remember them hyping longer Raw and getting excited, then hearing it was moving from 9pm to 8:57.
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Aug 14, 2009 18:28
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TL posted:Did somebody say "3 minutes"? I remember Nitro having that jumpstart, but I do recall Raw trying it, too. Really, though, the headstart meant nothing compared to the overrun.
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Aug 14, 2009 18:56
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The King would always hype Raw right before the credits rolled on Walker, Texas Ranger.
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Aug 14, 2009 18:59
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People seem to forget that the Wolfpac was over as gently caress. Seriously, every kid had a red and black t-shirt. Also when WCW got that retarded looking new logo that looked like a butterfly or something, that's when it died to me. But it got surprisingly good in 2001.
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Aug 14, 2009 19:26
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WeaselWeaz posted:But I'm not blaming Russo for the death of WCW either. He was just another nail in the coffin and no one person is responsible for WCW's death. Okay. That's pretty much all I was trying to say, too. Gr1mm posted:People seem to forget that the Wolfpac was over as gently caress. This. Also, the Malenko/Jericho feud produced some of the loudest sustained crowd reactions I've ever heard. Malenko taking off the Ciclope mask in particular was a huge moment.
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Aug 14, 2009 19:35
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WZ_7GZgpaM Remember how loving over Kidman was?
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Aug 14, 2009 19:38
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I have fond memories of most of the cruiserweight title matches and angles. It's so hard for me to watch Rey Mysterio now considering what he was like when I was in my teens watching him in WCW. His matches aren't necessarily bad now but they're nothing like what he was doing back then.
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Aug 14, 2009 20:11
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Writer Cath posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WZ_7GZgpaM Yep. That's why it's a shame to see him all fat now.
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Aug 14, 2009 20:17
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CombineThresher posted:Yep. That's why it's a shame to see him all fat now. Meh, he's training wannabe divas in FCW now. I'm sure there's quite a few girls willing to do whatever it takes to get noticed. Probably not a bad existence.
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Aug 14, 2009 21:01
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Fallon posted:Erm . . is that it? Really, how did it eclipse WWF for so long, what were the good parts of WCW? It didn't eclipse WWF for that long. It was successful in 1989, from 1995 or 1996 to 1998 it beat the WWF, and it was competitive until 1999. However, from the late 1980s to 1995/1996 and 1999 through the sale in 2001 it was behind the WWF. So it had five successful years out of thirteen, if you only count the Turner years. Writer Cath posted:Meh, he's training wannabe divas in FCW now. I'm sure there's quite a few girls willing to do whatever it takes to get noticed. Probably not a bad existence. Uh, not really. The girls know they're more important than he is and don't respect wrestling anyway.
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Aug 14, 2009 23:56
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I am going though my 1998 Raw tapes, and how real was the Brawl for All? They seem like they were all throwing legit (untrained lovely) boxing punches.
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Aug 15, 2009 02:28
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ultimateforce posted:I am going though my 1998 Raw tapes, and how real was the Brawl for All? They seem like they were all throwing legit (untrained lovely) boxing punches. It was 100% shoot.
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Aug 15, 2009 02:31
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grody but still def posted:It was 100% shoot. As evidenced by Dr. Death going down and having his WWE career flushed down the drain
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Aug 15, 2009 02:43
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Haha, they just had a good zoom in on Marc Mero's tribal armband tattoo. 1998 owned.
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Aug 15, 2009 02:45
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