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Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Has ANYTHING like that ever been confirmed beyond Meltzer or Alvarez reporting it? I'm not aware of WWE telling the audience about aborted storylines.

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Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Skinty McEdger posted:

Shane McMahon did an interview a few years back where he talked about what he saw as going wrong with Lesnar, and how he burned out so quickly. Basically he said that Brock never had a down peroid outside of a few weeks, where he wasn't being pushed as a big star and so never had the opportunity to be tested to how much he wanted it. The depush is a huge part of WWE man management now. You survive it with your attitude intact and you will get the push you deserve.

There is something to be said for it, at least in the sense of being a crucible. A guy like Punk, who connects with the people and who refuses to let depushes damage his confidence is much more likely to have long-term prospects than, say, Carlito, who just stopped trying.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Save Russian Jews posted:

No one cheered for the guy swinging the swords around in Indiana Jones.

You can have have a flippy heel, he just has to be a slightly bigger dick than someone who is intentionally made unentertaining.

Oh, I just had a great idea. A Teddy Hart gimmick. A heel who just constantly tries flips and dives and elaborate poo poo, whether it hits or not, and is just OTT smug and arrogant about how cool all of it is.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Theshby posted:

It happens a lot in Mexico.

Some Sundays it's 4 matches in 24 hours.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


The Croc posted:

Think its a hold over from his days in Mexico.

Bingo. He was called Corazon de Leon in CMLL. I think it got Anglicised when Paul E brought him in, and it stuck for a while into his WCW run.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Strenuous Manflurry posted:

Similar to my favorite Don West moment.

Hernandez is facing off against one of the British Invasion amidst "USA! USA!" chants. West pipes up: "Now I've never said we have the smartest group of fans, but I hear them chanting 'USA USA'. Now is that for the Mexican or is that for the Brit?"

Actually, probably for the guy from Texas. (Hernandez barely even speaks Spanish.)

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


And The Rise and Fall of ECW is probably as close to an objective look at that promotion as WWE will ever be involved with. Maybe supplement it with the Shane Douglas counterpart movie, the name of which I forget right now.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


No, no, it's Lance Storm who has the big schlong. HulkaMatt does do a heckuva cabbage patch though.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Shitty_Wok posted:

This ruled so hard, was there any fallout from him saying that?

Love how he gave himself the double- right after he dropped it.

No, the best part is Sherri's massive after he says it.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


I do remember he had a match with Taker once where he got to counter Old School, which is kind of unheard of.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Haven't watched Raw live for a while, but it's quite likely it's real. Steve Austin had a bit for a while where he'd let his opponent speak, only to cut them off by screaming "WHAT?!" at them, and sometimes he'd even do it to himself. It caught on and now the crowds will often do it when they're annoyed at someone or bored by what they're saying.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


George Kaplan posted:

I liked it when turned it into a sing-a-long thing, where he broke up these long rambling promos deliberately for people to shout it.

"Before I came here tonight I went to a bar"
WHAT?
"I said I went to a bar"
WHAT?
"And I drink a beer"
WHAT?
"And then I drank another beer"
WHAT?
"And then I drank a whisky"
WHAT?

I never had any idea where he was going with those promos or why he was making them, but they were fun.
I'm betting he didn't have a drat clue where he was going either.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


George Kaplan posted:

Would be WAY better.

Though I think Santino becoming unexpectedly super-smart, and using Kozlov as dumb muscle, would be a better fit.

Reverse that and you've got something.

"So-a Vladamir! Whatta we gonna do tonight?"

"Same thing we do every night, Santino. Try to take over double-double-E!!!"

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Endorph posted:

All of them. All of the steroids.

Incidentally this is why he's still on the outs with Vince. He stole some of Vinny Mac's gas.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


As I recall, that was the final of a tournament. So the guys who LOST the earlier rounds didn't have to do anything, but the second place guy gets humiliated...

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Didn't Dreamer even get the pin?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Mr. Carlisle posted:

That doesn't make them any less insulting to anyone with half a brain. Or older than five.

Thing which makes them money is gonna be more appealing than thing which pleases small minority of roster and fanbase. Especially when they don't care about the former and the latter will watch anyway (and don't buy t-shirts.)

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Jake wasn't half-bad as a babyface either. This promo from 'Mania VI is a particular favourite of mine.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


A Dapper Man posted:

Wasn't this actually more Holly's fault than Brock's? It looks like Holly made no effort to pull himself up, causing Brock to tip forward.

Pretty much. Bob had a bad habit of deciding to make new guys look like poo poo by potatoing them and deadweighting them on certain moves. Un(?)fortunately he didn't realise Brock is basically a caveman and inhumanly strong, so Brock just powered him up anyway. Then decided "gently caress you, you selfish rear end in a top hat" and dropped him on his head.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Sugar Blaster posted:

That was when Brock beat Hogan and used his blood as warpaint. Hogan jobbed assuming he'd get his heat back in a return match, but he left the company before that could happen which makes the whole thing so much more awesome.

Didn't Brock beat him with a bearhug?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Captain Charisma posted:

Arn Anderson had to pull out of the War Games match due to injury, and gave his spot on the 4 Horsemen team to Curt Hennig. It was a very emotional promo and it really emphasized how important he felt the spot was.

So of course the next week the NWO does a spoof of it the next week to suck all of the emotion out

Wasn't there a planned run-in by the Horsemen to hype the feud during that segment, that got nixed by Nash or Bischoff or someone?

And I always heard the Oklahoma thing was a personal animosity that either Ferrara, Russo or both had towards JR from WWE. I don't remember if it was just that JR spoke out against their shittier ideas or what.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Web Jew.0 posted:

I know fans tend to project a kind of personality onto the brands but what you're asking whether the taped show on a worse night with less viewers has ever been valued over the live show on a night with more viewers.

fwiw SD usually wins the bigger interbrand matches for some reason.

To make it seem like there's at least some kind of parity. And there was a period, I think when Heyman was doing the Smackdown Six stuff, where Smackdown was actually outdoing Raw in sheer viewership, even if the ratings were technically lower due to the network vs cable thing.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


MassRayPer posted:

Ratings went way down after the move to Friday. They were doing above a 3 in 2005 before the move, and after the move ratings dove into the low 2s, but recovered to the upper 2s by the end of the year for about a 10% decline. A year after the move ratings had declined more than half a point.

The move was made because Friday is a terrible night for ratings and UPN felt that Smackdown would maintain its rating no matter what. They could then use the Thursday night slot for other shows they felt would do worse on Friday.

Of course, this does not explain why MyNetwork and SyFy have not moved it back, in spite of the former definitely not having any reason not to.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Manwithastick posted:

See this I understand but its never a headlock, its always a punch or kick

I think it's about half a holdover to the territories, where fans hitting the ring was often to attack a heel, so they were fully justified to defend themselves, and half a supposed deterrent. In theory, if you know you're gonna get your rear end kicked doing it, you won't try.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


May 2002, right after Eddie came back.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


CSammich posted:

He's improved a lot though. He's clearly pretty athletic. It's hard to judge how good he actually is though without him being in a non-comedy match.

It's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. He's not that good, so keep him in short comedy squashes. Which means he only gets good at that. So you can't give him a TV match which is serious. And so he doesn't get house show matches which are serious to improve in. So he sucks and you can only use him for comedy squashes...

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


budreck posted:

The demographics part makes sense.

Nascar is huge, why wouldn't a driver be a babyface?

Bob Holly, that's why.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Yeah, buys were down, so they decided to ignore WHY gimmick matches draw, and just theme all the pay-per-views. It helps a little for stuff like the Chamber or HITC, but eventually the novelty wore off and most of the non-major shows are down.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Burrito posted:

He just didn't take Jeff Hardy's magic dust.

This is what CM Punk was trying to warn us about!

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Sue Denim posted:

CM Punk definitely, he has such a unique promo style that it wouldn't seem like he was trying to out do The Rock, plus he could get on his holier than thou high horse about The Rock only coming back when it was convenient for him and being some sort of hypocrite.

Wade Barrett, maybe. For similar reasons of having a very different promo style, plus he seems quick witted. He comes off okay against Cena, but obviously The Rock is quite a different manner, but I'd say he'd have a fighting chance.

I'd guess Punk would probably latch on to the call and response thing. Brand the 'millions... and millions' as sheep that Rock needs to feed his ego.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Depending on what sort of answer you were looking for: Yes, usually; depends on personal preference.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Jerusalem posted:

I hated that because Rock was throwing everything he had into that match in order to make Lesnar a star, and getting poo poo on by the crowd. It also probably set the stage for the Lesnar face turn when he was obviously built and designed for the express purpose of being a Monster Heel.

I dunno, I liked Brock as the babyface. It's obviously not his strength personality-wise, but in terms of a Road Warrior-esque dude who can come in and clean house, throw Big Show around like a midget and generally get people pumped, Brock had a lot going for him.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Neodoomium posted:

Rock was always really good at reacting to what the crowd gave him. He embraced the "Heel" role in both of those two instances mentioned, when many workers would have gotten flustered or said "gently caress you, I'm the face in this match and I'm going to act like it".

If he'd still pretended to be the face version of The Rock against Hogan, that match would have bombed.

Pretty much. Rock's a great worker in the same way that Hogan is. They both know what they're good at, and they know what gets a response from the crowd and when to do it. But they're not the cleanest, most technically sound wrestlers you'll ever see.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Jerusalem posted:

Considering the poo poo that networks will happily put on, it goes to show how bad WCW was at the end that nobody wanted anything to do with it.

The reason I ask is because following that main event, they really seemed to make that immediate shift into,"Okay now WCW are the bad guys, Shane is a bad guy, Steph is bad, boo the bad people and cheer for WWF (not X-Pac)" mode.

You forgot the anti-XPac, Rob Van Dam. Literally the entire Alliance were heels, except RVD, because after about 3 weeks of trying, they gave up and acknowledged that people just thought the dude was too cool to boo.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


LividLiquid posted:

DDP was WCW's answer to the Rock.

Who used the 'People's Champion' line first?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


The Croc posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT9JbgT_JTs


That won't be it but would be awesome if they called a PC just for JR to spout that.


Opinion seems to be something to do with mistico.

I'd say either Mistico or they're gonna do TV tapings in Mexico. Off-chance of maybe working with CMLL in some capacity, but that's 'Sting is 2-21-11' levels of unlikely.

I'm gonna go hog-wild and guess they bought the gimmick, and he's actually coming in AS Mistico.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


WWe's starting to outstrip the two main Mexican promotions in TV ratings, and they do big numbers (although that's slipping) when they tour, despite tickets being like 3 times what CMLL or AAA charge. Funnily enough, besides the obvious of Rey and ADR, Kane's probably the most over guy down there.

Bringing in Mistico isn't necessarily an attempt to appeal to Mexico alone, though. The idea is to get someone to replace Rey as he's getting older and WWE feel he's gotten difficult to work with. Plus his injuries are piling up and he's not going to be around forever. Add to that the growth in the Hispanic population in the US, and it makes sense to try and build a few Hispanic stars.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


SiKboy posted:

Basically no. Or a qualified no at least. I would say that in order to compete with the WWE they would need to get a TV deal (without a TV deal the best matches from the most talented performers will still only have an audience in the thousands including the live crowd and DVD sales online or whatever) and then have one or more breakout stars who cross into the the mainstream at around about the same time as wrestling has another boom. And they'll have to have got there without relying on washed up ex-WWE guys to carry the uppercard (because that'll make them look B-league) and without the E luring their promising talent away with deals that they simply cant compete with. I'd argue that having a training school run by talented veterans would pretty much be a necessity to produce their own wrestlers so they arent simply recycling former WWE guys and the same indy stars that you could see on TNA/ROH.

So they would need;

Money.
A loyal fanbase who attend shows regularly.
A TV deal.
Money.
A wrestling talent pool that wont be lured away by the WWE chequebook the second they get any national attention.
Serious amounts of money without anyone looking for a quick return.
You would need to be american. As much as its an international business, I just dont see the US going nuts for a foreign wrestling organisation, even if they speak english. I guess theoretically a british organisation could make it big in the UK, parlay that into european success then take america with that behind them as "Europes #1 wrestling organisation!" but I'd be suprised.
A white-hot angle to draw people in.

I guess it boils down to money, talent and luck. I guess it could happen on a modest budget, or it could happen with only a modicum of talent, but you'd need 2 out the 3, and one of them would have to be a metric shittonne of luck. Or for the WWE to suffer some sort of catastrophe that has a huge impact, but it would have to be huge. The steriod thing didnt kill them, the Benoit thing didnt kill them, linda failing at politics didnt kill them, I dont know what it would take to be honest.

The thing is, if any mid-sized organisation looked like it might grow to be a threat to the WWE, they have the resources to either buy the organisation outright, or simply gut it by offering key wrestlers big money contracts. Thats how Vince dealt with legitimate competition when he was expanding in the first place, I dont see him having a problem doing it again.

The maddening thing is that TNA technically has most of the tools. They have a decent money mark who doesn't seem too bothered about making a big profit quickly, they have a good amount of non-WWE made talent, and they have TV and a loyal audience.

Then they gently caress it up with their inferiority complex and Vince Russo having pictures of Dixie making out with a goat to use as blackmail for a job. (The idea of her actually thinking he's good is more terrifying)

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Maxwell Lord posted:

I'm not really sure what the advantage would be in being MMA-ish when people can just watch MMA instead. I don't think a fake sport can really go head-to-head with a "real" one just on athleticism alone- I think you need the dramatics to some extent.

Thing is, MMA feuds are built a lot like pro-wrestling ones used to be. You have a babyface and a heel, you have a clash of personalities leading to them wanting to fight, you have them trash-talk for a bit, then you make the audience pay to see who wins.

All that suggestion is asking for, is for wrestling to be booked like wrestling and stop trying to be SNL (with some matches).

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Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


crankdatbatman posted:

Is Wrestlemania 2000 the only WM to have a heel win the main event? If so, are there any other major PPVs that have such a history of heels/faces overwhelmingly winning in such a landslide fashion? I would imagine Survivor Series would be more heels winning, considering that would be a good time to build up to the Wrestlemania face win.

Technically, WM9 has the heel win the advertised main event.

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