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Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Has the "rematch clause" always been a thing or is that new? Seems like we've seen a lot more of those recently as a writing crutch to pad out Raws when they can't think of anything better to do. The after-PPV Raws are basically just "watch the same matches you paid for last night" now.

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Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Speaking of aging well, Goldust is 45 and wrestles like he's still 25. Did he jump on the DDP Yoga bandwagon or is it just the good ol' Rhodes genetics at work?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Comedy characters definitely have a place on the roster and Santino was one of the best at it, even if his last real work made Emma DOA.

If his neck is that bad he shouldn't wrestle again, but I think he could have a great Rumble retirement spot, where he powerwalks down, Cobras some jabroni, jumps over the top rope and takes a bow before powerwalking out.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Bigass Moth posted:

Not that I really care, but did WWE drop the Adam Rose/Bunny storyline or did I miss the dramatic conclusion?

He interrupted Stephanie on the 15th anniversary Smackdown, Steph got annoyed and booked him in a match with Kane. Kane squashed him and murdered about half of the express.

I believe that was Kane's first clean victory in a good 6 months.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Memento posted:

Halloween Havoc 1998, network link here.

Endless rest holds, NWO interference, a ref bump...yup, this sure is a late-90s WCW match.

E: that ending was even stupider than I could've imagined.

Benne fucked around with this message at Nov 2, 2014 around 08:30

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

So I've been watching old Raws and Nitros on the Network (FOR NINE NINETY NINE) and one thing that strikes me as different from the modern-day product is how they end episodes. As in, there is an actual ending.

The main-event match may or may not have a gently caress finish, but the final minutes always cut back to the announce team where they talk about what just happened, build up the major storylines going on and promote scheduled matches happening on later shows. And then they sign off like a proper TV broadcast. None of the wishy-washy endings we see these days where Raw always runs 10-15 minutes long, there's a nonsensical brawl, either the faces or heels pose strong depending on Vince's mood that afternoon, and you don't even know when the show is ending until it cuts to black.

My question is: When did they go away from the earlier style? Say what you will about the content of mid-90s Raw/Nitro, by the end I usually have a decent idea of what's going on and what's coming next.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Cardboard Box posted:

attitude era was where cliffhanger endings became commonplace. couldn't tell you exactly when it started but it was definitely by 1998.


MassRafTer posted:

By late 96 Nitro is pretty much a clusterfuck ending and a tease for next week.

So you're saying I've already seen the last of those endings

I found the old method refreshing after getting back into wrestling this year and getting months of DQ FINISH CLUSTERFUCK BRAWL WE'RE OUTTA TIME, but so it goes, I guess.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Speaking of old Nitros, what was Big Show's billed weight when he was The Giant in WCW? Dude looks a good 100 pounds lighter than he ever did in his WWE run.

Incidentally, I'm enjoying The Giant matches way more than Big Show matches.

Benne fucked around with this message at Nov 20, 2014 around 07:14

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Luigi Thirty posted:

7 feet tall and 450 pounds.

Either I'm getting whooshed or WCW was even more hilarious than I thought at fudging numbers, because not even the camera adding 10 pounds could make The Giant look like 450.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

So tonight was literally the first time I've seen Jamie Noble wrestle since I started watching again. Was he ever worth a drat when he was active and does he have any matches worth checking out?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

The Scorpion Deathlock kinda loses its luster when the likes of Tyson Kidd are using it in a career-revival push.

I won't be surprised if the Death Drop on HHH was the only wrestling move Sting did until the Rumble.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Tir McDohl posted:

I listened to the Punk podcast last week and I'm watching the Austin/McMahon interview right now and it's really good stuff. I watched wrestling for years around the Attitude Era, and got back into it around Summerslam 2013. I'm still blown away whenever wrestlers or Vince talk so frankly about it being a scripted show because this could never have happened back then, as scripted as everyone knew wrestling was. This has probably been asked before, but when did "kayfabe" end?

Someone with more knowledge than me can probably answer this better, but it mostly ended during the steroid trials when Vince invented the term "sports entertainment" to separate his product from actual sports.

Benne fucked around with this message at Dec 3, 2014 around 05:01

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

RVD's Frog Splash seems to hurt himself more than the opponent 80% of the time

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

I don't think there was any real explanation beyond "hey Vince, wouldn't it be cool if I rode a motorcycle to the ring?"

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

The Slammy Awards are typically a boon to ratings and they just tanked, so you can't blame it all on football season.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

I decided to check out Unforgiven 06 for Cena/Edge, and the rest of this card is...something.

Big Show, The McMahons and DX in Hell in a Cell? What the hell is Big Show doing in a cell? Who greenlit this poo poo?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Well that was a surprisingly decent match, even though I had zero desire to see Big Show's rear end

Benne fucked around with this message at Dec 24, 2014 around 03:17

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Just got finished with Unforgiven 06. Cena/Edge was as good as advertised, although Edge took some scary-looking bumps that probably helped to shorten his career.

The HIAC match was......well it was memorable, that's for sure. In the bigger picture, though, I think that was a perfect conclusion to the DX/Vince saga.

Trish got a really cool sendoff and I'm kinda sad that I missed almost her entire run.

Jeff Hardy and Johnny Nitro had a good curtain-jerker, even if JR wouldn't shut up about Melina. The midcard matches were forgettable but inoffensive.

Overall, a pretty decent card elevated by a red-hot crowd. I didn't regret watching it. WWE really needs to do more shows in Toronto.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Chewy Bitems posted:

What's going on with Brad Maddox? I remember seeing tweets that he was starting from the bottom and competing at House Shows, is he still doing that or has he vanished again?

I thought I heard something about him scouting talent on the indies, but don't quote me on that

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

I've always wondered how they gimmicked the mat for those "fall through the ring" spots Foley, Undertaker and Kane used to do. Isn't there normally a layer of plywood under the ring that they'd need to adjust ahead of time? And how did they make sure the wrestlers didn't break the mat before the planned spot?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

I kinda liked the Kane/Bryan Extreme Rules match, if only for the odd novelty of seeing a technical wrestler like Bryan doing Attitude Era stuff. But yeah, I wouldn't call it a "good match" by objective standards.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

I've seen people compare Seth Rollins to Edge and I've made that same comparison myself, but since I wasn't watching in the 00s I sadly missed most of Edge's singles run when he wasn't teaming with Christian.

I've seen both his matches with Undertaker at Mania and Summerslam, and his TLC match with Cena at Unforgiven 06, but what are the other best Edge matches to watch?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

As a followup question, the Ruthless Aggression Era seems to be underrated, partly by fans like me who stopped watching at the time. Yet when I visit a PPV from the era, more often than not I find great matches all over the cards (for the sake of discourse, I'm counting the period between the brand split and Benoit/the PG era).

Am I just overstating things by seeing only the best stuff, or was this truly an overlooked period by a lot of smark fans?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Smoking Crow posted:

45 minute hhh promos

How's that different from today?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Basically what I'm getting from this is that Triple H ruined everything when he politicked his way to the top Hogan-style. Does that diminish the good-to-great matches I've seen from him in that period, or am I just fortunate to miss all his burial promos on Raw in that time?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Onmi posted:

Let's be frank, nothing can take away enjoyment you got from a match. Does Bryans win over Cena and his path to Wrestlemania become diminished when you realize that if Cena hadn't been injured he would have lost

No, it doesn't. I still cherish Ziggler's big Survivor Series moment even if they did fuckall with it. That was his career highlight and no amount of bad booking can take it away.

So I'll still enjoy those 2000s HHH matches even if the Raw booking was poo poo, because they were good matches.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Spermgod posted:

What are the best matches with the worst booking? Can anything come close to Lesnar/Cena II?


Ambrose/Rollins at HIAC. What should have been an incredible instant classic blowoff was getting there for about 95% of the match, and then magic lantern happened.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

The thing about Fandango that baffles me is they let him

a) use the leg drop as a finisher when it basically turned Hogan's back/hips into balsa wood

b) use it off the loving top rope

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Smoking Crow posted:

Remember, The People's Elbow still exists

I've never really considered the People's Elbow a true finisher, just an exclamation point to the Rock Bottom while Rock plays to the crowd. It probably helps that it's done by the most charismatic wrestler in history.

If you want to talk about crowd-playing moves that are actually bad, Cena's Five Knuckle Shuffle is the most blatant "just do what Rock did" move.

Benne fucked around with this message at Jan 27, 2015 around 10:15

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

The MOTYC/WMOTYC thread introduced me to NECW, which featured some of the worst wrestling I've ever seen even by low-rent indie standards. Has that promotion ever put on any decent matches?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

How the hell do they still have crowd support and decent production values? Like, I've seen backyard poo poo with more entertaining and passable matches than what NECW puts on. Do they have a buddy who knows a local business who will sponsor them or something?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

MassRafTer posted:

It's really easy to make some graphics. If you look closely their production is garbage. The white balancing is off, the hand held camera they use looks like poo poo and well, the whole show looks like poo poo.

That is all stuff I probably should've noticed, but was too busy chugging booze to get through the garbage matches. I don't know how you do it sober, props to you.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

On that topic, are there any low-rent indies that actually have decent matches/production values? Like, I'm not talking about ROH/PWG/CZW stuff, but maybe a level below them that still tries?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Gaz-L posted:

On a scale of 1-10, how full of poo poo is Heyman on the recent documentary WWE made about him, regarding his own finances and the financial relationship between ECW and WWE? (He claims he never took any money from WWE until he began doing Raw, and even at a company level, WWE only paid $1000 a week to ECW for Scorpio) I assume the stuff about Paul losing a ton of money himself is probably true.

Gun to my head, probably around 4. Heyman has no qualms about showing rear end and the ECW financial problems are well-documented. We'll probably never know how much he took from WWE but I've little doubt it was enough to keep the lights on because Vince loving loved the "competition" (aka buying ECW's biggest stars when it was convenient)

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

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An Actual Bear posted:

This has probably been asked before but there was nothing in the OP about it. Why did Wrestlemania XIX do such a lovely buyrate? That card had 4 legitimate main event matches and was stacked with star power. Was wrestling seriously in that big of a slump in '03 or was it just a weird anomaly that hasn't been explained to this day? It's a shame it did so badly because it's one of my favourite PPV's ever.

They blamed it on the Seattle crowd which is why we'll never get a PPV in Seattle again

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

So I came across Halloween Havoc '97 and had never seen the main event finish before, when the fan climbed into the cage and got beat up by Hogan/Savage. Was this an actual unplanned thing or another one of WCW's lame attempts at a worked shoot?

It was literally the only interesting thing about Hogan/Piper. That match was garbage and made worse when the real Sting didn't even come out.

E: I guess the other interesting thing was an 80-year-old Savage nearly breaking his legs jumping off the goddamned cage. Who the hell signed off on that?

Benne fucked around with this message at Feb 4, 2015 around 10:26

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

This might be a dumb question, but I'm watching the Mid-Atlantic and Mid-South tapes the Network just put up, and there are almost no entrances to speak of, at least by our modern standards. When did the concept of a proper entrance with theme music and theatrics really start to catch on? Maybe not until the WWF itself took off?

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

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Timby posted:

Undertaker / HHH at WrestleMania 27 followed by a three-minute Snooki match and Miz / Cena.

Shield/Evolution at Extreme Rules was followed by the Cena/Wyatt clusterfuck

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

OldTennisCourt posted:

What's the most dangerous spot/botch that could have resulted in serious injury/death but was barely avoided? Theres a couple of times people have fallen a huge height onto the announce tables without the monitors taken out that could have destroyed their back.

Randy Orton at the last Mania, when he did the RKO on the table and his back slammed directly onto the monitor. He probably needed the stretcher job more than Bryan did.

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Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

AJ's been doing the move for like a decade without any issues. What's more likely, that it's a dangerous move or that two dipshits don't know how to take the move, which happened to occur back-to-back?

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