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On the subject of STOs/Uranages/Rock Bottoms etc I am reminded of a conversation I had with my friends probably back in 2009-2010. Friends: R-Truth's finisher sucks, he looks like he's hitting himself with a Rock Bottom. Me: Given the odds of R-Truth ever wrestling the Rock I can't help but think that's a non-issue. Then Survivor Series 2011 happened. And there was a spot where The Rock had Miz in the Sharpshooter and R-Truth ran up to the Rock and...I'm still not sure who actually hit their finisher there. I watched the show with the same friends I made this argument to. I know that the forces that shape the universe do not actually conspire against me, but I still can't believe that happened. Also for my record; hated Wade Barrett's original finisher. It looked like Scott Hall had some serious competition for the real 'Sack of poo poo toss' title. And as horrible as Benoit is, I think the cascade of woe that was the Von Erich family can give it a run for its money.
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Feb 16, 2015 23:12
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Halloween Jack posted:The way late-era WCW treated Ric Flair baffles me to this day. They spent like 2 years treating him as if their deliberate goal was to kill the Charlotte territory forever. Every Nitro in North Carolina might as well have been Eric Bischoff sitting in the ring screaming "I hate you! I hate you!" at a sack of hundred dollar bills as he tore them into pieces, one by one. To my understanding the acrimony between Flair/WCW (and especially Bischoff) was at the point where this is basically the truth of the matter. In Flair's book he gives a pretty detailed account of the bs Bischoff put him through. In Bischoff's book he barely even tries to fabricate a defense for his actions concerning Flair (and given Bischoff's talent for bs, this is pretty damning).
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Feb 20, 2015 22:02
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St Evan Echoes posted:So here's a dumb hypothetical question: say you're a billionaire, with a couple hundred mill to burn on making a national-level wrestling promotion in the USA, and you are mentally ill enough to go through with it. Is there a current company that would be worth taking over and expanding, or would it literally be better to start from scratch with a new promotion? I'm not sure if purchasing any individual wrestling promotion in the United States is a better idea than just creating a new company from whole cloth. I might be of a minority opinion here, but I actually think the first step in this process would be to find and hire a capable behind-the-scenes crew who can turn your money into the framework of a product that looks and comes across as modern and 1st class. A lot of wrestling is superficial and looking the part of an international entertainment product is of paramount importance. The second part is developing a reputation for taking care of your employees. Your best hope of coming across as a legitimate National wrestling company is the ability to convince established stars in their prime to work for you instead of a senile megalomaniac or a spoiled brat and if you can flash the cash, look the part, and respect your employees you might just find yourself with a disgruntled marketable asset who doesn't reek of being a 'cast-off from the big league'. Of course there are problems with this plan. You will very likely hemorrhage money to start and the bleeding might never stop. The quality of your behind-the-scenes crew may simply not exist, as people with the ability you need will have no interest in working for a start-up company in an industry that looks bad on their resumes and the growth rate of a rock. And even if you yourself are trying to present an image of magnanimity towards your employees, those who work under you will likely be trying to undermine it for the sake of their own personal agendas.
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Mar 19, 2015 19:04
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A bit late to the party on the "Worst World Champion" question but I can't let it pass without mentioning Yokozuna. He wasn't quite the stiff Khali/late 80's Andre was. But only by the narrowest of margins. He didn't cut promos. I think his entire run consisted of Mr. Fuji doing all the talking for him while he just stood around and yelled 'BANZAI'. On top of being barely able to work himself his body was such a bloated mess it was pretty much impossible to do wrestling holds on him. (watching Bret try in vain to put the sharpshooter on him is an enduring memory of his run). His gimmick was stupid; the only real difference between Yoko and say, T.L. Hopper is that Yoko got to be world champion. The most damning thing is that thanks to Lex Luger's push failing, he's the longest reigning heel WWF World Champion outside of Billy Graham (by only 16 days).
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Mar 20, 2015 01:48
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MassRafTer posted:This is why I don't understand why Khali was almost the consensus answer to that question. Dude was bad but had some charisma and a great look. Because until I saw SSW I didn't believe it was possible to be worse at pro wrestling than Khali. *and yes I know I'm the guy who brought Yoko into this conversation but despite my personal disdain I will fully acknowledge that in a vacuum Khali is far worse. Yoko's biggest check 'against' was that he was a belt pillow that held the strap for way too long because the guys he was holding the belt for (in some way shape of form) fell through (Vince finally getting sick of Hogan's bullshit, the failure of Lex Luger as a face).
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Mar 21, 2015 08:29
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As a wrestler, Warrior in his prime was the human equivalent of a bolt of lightning. As a talker, Warrior was capable of expressing raw psychotic passion better than anybody on earth who isn't the lead singer of a death metal band.
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Mar 21, 2015 21:34
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Rusty Shackelford posted:He was over without it, and who would you have had him beat for it? Honky-Tonk Man. No doubt in my mind. We'd be denied the sublime visual of Warrior ending his 18 month title reign in 30 seconds but that's a sacrifice I'd be willing to make.
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Mar 23, 2015 03:03
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Warrior's promos made perfect sense to 10 year old me. The idea that they were considered incomprehensible was rather new to me. A few months back on an idle lark a friend of mine and I hit up a random SNME on the network. Specifically the one that had Warrior v. Andre for the IC title. While I haven't really done any comparison shopping it might be one of the most lucid and straightforward promos he's ever cut. He actually responds to Gene and everything. To paraphrase: Gene: Are you scared of the Giant? Woyah: Fear is an aberration! Fear is the air that cowards breathe! The Ultimate Woyah only breathes the air of courage and only tastes the fruits of victory! (It loses something if you don't write it out in all caps, but you get the idea).
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Mar 23, 2015 04:23
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Luigi Thirty posted:His weigh in for the Mayweather thing was legit, whatever weight that was 441 is the number that jumps out at me. It was something way lower than I expected at any rate.
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Jun 18, 2015 23:33
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projecthalaxy posted:If you don't like Soupbones then boy howdy do we have differing opinions. Great, now I'm wondering what a broth made from the Undertaker's arms would taste like.
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Aug 18, 2015 00:48
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HHH is an author self-insert in the story of Paul Levesque's life.
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Aug 19, 2015 02:11
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OldTennisCourt posted:I apologize if this is a dumb question but: I've read Death of WCW, but I feel like I don't fully understand it's true significance in the grand scheme of WCW. Can someone go into detail of why the Fingerpoke of Doom was so detrimental? Was it simply a case of "Oh gently caress, are we really just doing this poo poo AGAIN!?" with an NWO reunion and no real new ideas? There was also the hilariously ironic commentary that accompanied it. Not relevant in the grand scheme of things of course, but still amazing. (remember, as a general rule the commentary booth didn't know what was going to happen in the ring). "This is what pro wrestling is all about. This is what WCW is all about." ...fingerpoke of doom. The unintentional message being that WCW and pro wrestling is all about pacifying the egos of its biggest stars, Hogan and Nash in particular.
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Aug 23, 2015 01:43
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zakharov posted:My friend who got into WWE around the time of this year's Mania is looking to see why the Attitude era is remembered so fondly. If you were to pick one PPV from the Network that's encompasses everything good and bad about that period, what would you pick? I'll throw in a nod for Survivor Series 98.
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Aug 25, 2015 23:11
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It was Yokozuna. A friend of mine talked about how that was something of a seminal moment in his pro-wrestling childhood.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:15
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reignofevil posted:I wish more wrestlers would bust out "where the gently caress did that come from" moves occasionally. Makes it feel like they spent their weekend prepping for the match and I'm way into that. More to the point it makes wrestling feel like something organic rather than the copy/pasted spot sequences modern wrestling has become. Also; the first guy I ever saw do an enzuiguri? The Big Boss Man.
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Sep 3, 2015 00:45
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I first remember seeing our local newpaper cover Wrestlemania 2, with a still of Hogan kicking Bundy off the cage. This is my earliest present memory, but I remember knowing who they both were so my fandom predates it.
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Oct 30, 2015 12:28
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Nailz just methodically beating Bossman within an inch of his life over the course of like, 8 minutes.
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Oct 31, 2015 06:13
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More likely Brody told Verne to gently caress off.
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Nov 25, 2015 22:54
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Aesop Poprock posted:I don't think it was "ok" but since WWE either actively or ignorantly sabotages pretty much all of their talent (many of whom are better than Ryder) and have for years he's not one I'd consider particularly high on my list to feel regretful about Ryder's case was notable because of how absolutely blatant it was. In the curious case of Zach Ryder, you just saw that this wasn't bad booking or lazy booking or apathethic booking. That was outright malevolent booking. A dude was punished for having the nerve to endear himself to the fans, which said a lot about how the WWE really sees its 'universe'.
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Dec 8, 2015 16:40
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Alright, since we're already in this line of conversation. What were some other notable blatant attempts at sabotaging a wrestler's career/image over the years? I know this is a hard subject because in wrestling a lot of really stupid things are just that; stupid, not malicious. The only ones that jump out at me are "Adorable" Adrian Adonis and Polka-dotted Dusty Rhodes.
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Dec 8, 2015 16:59
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The Rooster and The Dragon didn't seem like burials as much as they were just McMahon making cartoon characters as was his wont. Of course I could be wrong. Another question: With all this talk about Tater Tots, are there any prominent examples of a worker trying to get a chant over and failing? Because I swear fans will chant anything.
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Dec 8, 2015 23:34
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Saints Crow posted:Random question: Who do you think had the most potential athlete wise that just got wasted, either through booking/creative dropping the ball, or the wrestler just not stepping up? The could never figure out why the WWE gave up on Matt Morgan. He seemed like the sort of guy that the WWE would never give up on. Granted, I'm glad they did. Just perplexed. As far as Sean O'Haire goes, I think somebody else posted awhile ago that the reason that gimmick didn't take off is because he couldn't cut a live promo without laughing. So they saddled him with Roddy Piper and that was pretty much that.
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Dec 11, 2015 16:19
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That was my first guess too. But the last WW3 was 1998, way before the Wall showed up. It was probably Bunkhouse Bunk, as he was in the first 2.
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Jan 17, 2016 10:22
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OldTennisCourt posted:Aside from the Vince murder mystery angle, what were some examples of huge angles that had to get dropped due to unforseen issues? Not exactly similar but in the same vein: The anonymous Raw GM. In that once it had served it's purpose it just kinda vanished. In hindsight it's clear it was meant to be nothing but a framing device, but people were expecting a reveal. So at Raw 1000 they just decided "gently caress it, it's Hornswoggle. There, you happy now?" Nobody was happy.
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Feb 10, 2016 19:48
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triplexpac posted:Apparently Austin could be paranoid and protective of his spot, like a lot of dudes at the time. I can't think of much to back this up though, I just remembering hearing the dudes on the AE podcast talk about it a while ago. Maybe someone else can confirm/deny I just listened to the AE podcast on the subject and yeah, it sounded like Austin had a fair degree of insecurity concerning his place on the roster. He was not above throwing around his clout and refusing to work with certain individuals. But usually it was justifiable. He didn't want to work with Hogan because Hogan was instrumental in his marginalization and eventual ejection from WCW. If not for Hogan, I doubt he would have lost to Duggan in 30 seconds. He didn't want to work with Hall because of Hall's substance abuse issues combined with his usage of a dangerous finisher that would greatly imperil Austin's neck. He didn't want to work with Owen because Owen broke his drat neck doing a spot Austin didn't want to do. He didn't want to work with Jarrett because ???. Really this is the only weird one that I'm aware of. Not that I'm not grateful mind you. Russo thought way too highly of Jeff.
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Feb 18, 2016 23:30
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C. Everett Koop posted:Thought his logic of that one was Ventura, then Gov. of Minnesota, was the guest referee and it'd look bad if he had to count the fall for a heel, so let Foley win to prevent a PR disaster and do the change the next night? If that was the logic, and that's all there was to it, then why involve Foley at all? It would have been way less convoluted just to have Austin retain at Summerslam and have HHH beat Austin on Raw.
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Feb 19, 2016 04:19
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Spermgod posted:That was the fault of incompetent bosses more than Hogan. Ideally you want wrestlers with the leverage to protect the credibility and promotions with the balls and foresight to say no to them when it gets too much. I'm gonna throw this out here. Was Bischoff giving Hogan creative control incompetent? Do you think Hogan would have signed a contract for any amount of money without also having contractual control over every facet of his career? (I originally thought it only extended to match results, but apparently the fallout from BatB demonstrated otherwise). Do you think WCW would have been better off without Hogan? Remember that for all his faults Hogan was the linchpin of the most successful period of the company's history.
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Feb 20, 2016 02:41
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Wow that seems like a rather ridiculous conclusion to come to. I feel like I should bap that judge over the head with a rolled up newspaper. *BAP* BAD JUDGE! LOOK AT THE MESS YOU MADE! (points to Hogan). WE DO THAT OUTSIDE! In Hogan's defense though: You'd think that Russo would maybe look at Jeff Jarrett and be like 'y'know what, this is the second time in two companies this has happened. Maybe it's not them. Maybe I should hitch my wagon to another horse.' I swear TNA is the direct result of Jeff Jarrett deciding "Screw Austin, screw Hogan. I'ma get my own wrestling company, with blackjack. And hookers." And then he did. ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Feb 20, 2016 |
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Feb 20, 2016 03:30
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The Croc posted:It was generally poorly received I think they built him up over a week like he went from nothing major to a supposed title contender overnight. Also had the worst stable possibly ever. It wasn't quite as memorably bad as X-Factor, but it's a contender for sure.
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Feb 22, 2016 06:36
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I love that even 15-20 years after the death of the territories, TNA couldn't figure it out either. Of course, there were a lot of things they can't figure out.
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Mar 1, 2016 03:38
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Genericide posted:So what's changed? Is it that everyone is "smart" now, because Uproxx and Wreddit have made access to insider stuff mainstream? Is there an element that's it's just fun to be subversive sometimes? A pointed reaction to clumsy booking? When did it start becoming "just a part of the show" to vocally and repeatedly show your disappointment? I think after a decade of the WWE deciding who they're supposed to like for them, the fans are in revolt. Not sufficient revolt to stop investing in the product mind you.
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Mar 10, 2016 05:51
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I don't necessarily feel like some sort of change to the John Cena character is silly. Even if I liked Cena to begin with, his schtick is in a state of staleness unprecedented in wrestling history. Unfortunately a heel turn would feel disingenuous at best. I'd settle for some kind of character flaw. Like, if Cena continued to be the uber-face but demonstrated a reluctance to pass the torch to Roman. But there are so many reasons that won't happen I won't get my hopes up. Instead I'll just continue to leave the E to the chattel they market towards and focus my attention on other products.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:03
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Lanny Poffo seems alright. In a bit of denial about his brother. But other than that, alright.
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Apr 4, 2016 20:40
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Since we're on the subject, a quick question about Brody. Was he booked as one of those crazy guys who never talked like Abdullah or Kamala or did he actually cut promos and such?
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Apr 4, 2016 23:04
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Nice. Thanks. Also: The echo/audio on the video had an amazing effect on the promo itself. Made Brody sound like the final form of a JRPG boss.
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Apr 4, 2016 23:15
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sticklefifer posted:What are some wrestler pairings who have had much better ring chemistry than you've expected them to, either feuding or teaming? During mid-98 WCW during Juventud Guerrera's first WCW push he was in a mini-feud with Reese of the flock. This eventually led to a Horace + Reese beatdown where Juvy was saved by (Van) Hammer. They would then have a tag match on the next PPV. Juvy and Hammer showed way better chemistry than they had any business doing and in the mind of those of us who watch Nitro on Tuesdays, the Juicy Hammers were born. And then they never teamed again.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:03
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sticklefifer posted:I really like the idea of pairing Fandango with Breeze as a glam-themed tag team, throwing Summer back with both of them since she has history with each, and calling them the Boys of Summer. That'd be a fun as hell stable. When I first saw Breeze in nXt, I thought there was about a 98% chance he'd wind up as Miz's tag partner. Then I remember Miz's track record with tag partners/running buddies, and realized they probably didn't want to do that yet again. I know breakups and betrayals are part and parcel in pro wrestling, but Miz seems to be a bit of an outlier.
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Apr 15, 2016 22:17
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The problem isn't with the WWE. The problem is that wrestling fans, if you pull the lens back far enough are a writhing mass of flesh that is 49% meat, 49% Amygdala and 2% "other" by volume and the only way to get them to move in mass in to appeal to their basest instincts. If you tell them something is good for long enough they'll believe it eventually, no matter it's actual quality. It's why Vince hasn't jumped off the Roman train. He doesn't have to because he knows even if the live crowds are in revolt, gently caress 'em he's got their money .And the merch/PPV/network buyers will buy into it eventually if enough stimuli is jammed into their collective lizard brain. They probably have already.
ChrisBTY fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 05:40
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It's why I prefer the ensemble cast approach to wrestling. If you can shuffle enough interesting acts at the top, you can stave off stagnation and mitigate people's fear of change. Unfortunately the notion of the figurehead is what actually makes the business side of things move. It's hard to convince people that somebody is special if there are 3-4 other people who can be rightfully called their peer.
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Apr 17, 2016 08:09
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Sanguinia posted:You have a point in that Hogan's movie career was probably the only thing that opened the window for Savage to reach "The Guy," status and as a result became a draw on Hogan's level, and as soon as Hogan's movie career tanked they tossed Savage aside for the most part and went right back to the well. But Vince also tried to make Ultimate Warrior and Sid into stars on Hogan's level during that era, starting around Mania 6. How much of their failure was Hogan's influence and how much was their own shortcomings is its own debate, but either way Vince was willing to give them a shot. Before Cena, everybody who was the figurehead of the company had their own hang-ups. Hogan, as we all know, is a power hungry overall pain in the rear end and Vince was probably looking for somebody to replace him just so he didn't have to deal with him. Warrior was too esoteric to connect with a lot of the fans and a bigger headcase than Hogan. Sid was just lousy. Then Hogan's attitude after Wrestlemania prompted Vince to rip off the band-aid and wash his hands of him. Neither Hart nor Micheals was quite what Vince was looking for in a figurehead, for reasons mentioned numerous times. Nash fit the mold better, but he had Hogan's hang-ups without his drawing power. Austin was wrestling on borrowed time. He probably would have ridden Rock into the ground if he hadn't faffed off the Hollywood. HHH was too unlikable to really be a figurehead. In terms of character work mind you, not backstage stuff. He's just too natural of a heel. Cena, beyond anything he does on camera, is basically Vince's perfect figurehead. Which is why he's been the guy for the last decade. Vince's over-dependence on the whole figurehead thing has obviously made him blind to the harm it's done to the careers of everybody not named John Cena. But they're just cogs in the machine; none of them move the needle so why bother worrying about them until it's too late and you have to lean on part-timers.
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Apr 17, 2016 12:16
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