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the tingler
Jul 15, 2009


Maybe this is a question for a different forum, but is there any significant difference between the Prius and Prius Prime (plugin hybrid) in terms of reliability, cost of ownership?

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PCjr sidecar
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme



the tingler posted:

Maybe this is a question for a different forum, but is there any significant difference between the Prius and Prius Prime (plugin hybrid) in terms of reliability, cost of ownership?

I think the prime uses li ion so battery refurb is probably more expensive but I donít know tco.

Frabba
May 30, 2008

Investing in chewy toy futures

I have basically the same question about going PHEV vs regular Hybrid. I've been looking at the Prius/Insight, Prius Prime/Clarity, and the RAV4 Prime on a lark, but I'm curious how the larger battery affects TCO if I'm planning to have the car for 10-15 years.

My driving needs are such that most of my driving would be able to be addressed in EV only mode if I go with a plug in, but I also don't put a ton of miles on my cars. I've got a 2008 Civic that I am the original owner of, and it still has less than 93k miles on it.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008


question on behalf of my in laws who have been dicking around looking for a car for two years now without buying one, but This Time They're Serious

Proposed Budget: $30-35k
New or Used: Either
Body Style: Sedan, maybe coupe
How will you be using the car?: Late 30s couple who would be driving 15 minutes each way once or twice a month to see the parents in chicago burbs. No commuting. Maybe a long road trip now and then. No garage spot, so either street parking or uncovered lot.

What aspects are most important to you?
For the husband - reliability.
For the wife, who is from a family of notoriously horrible drivers who don't know how to operate vehicles correctly - power. Picture the little old lady merging onto the interstate at 20 mph and then pushing the pedal halfway down in a v8 to get up to speed. The last car she enjoyed driving was a Charger, but that was a rental in the summer.

The question boils down to: are there any japanese cars (either base or luxury) with power at low rpms and front wheel drive? Or would that be a unicorn? My only other idea is a used Taurus SHO but that doesn't scream reliability.

mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Apr 5, 2021

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Camry Hybrid / Lexus ES 300h immediately spring to mind. Tough to beat electric motors for torque, but there's not a lot of power at speed.

Many modern cars tend to be pretty good from a torque perspective because everyone has moved to very small turbochargers which mean peak torque is available at crazy low RPMs. The Honda 1.5T makes its 175 lb-ft from like 1900 rpm all the way up through like 5000 rpm, for instance.

Is FWD a must or just a no RWD situation? Putting down stupid power at low RPMs is tough with FWD.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008


KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Camry Hybrid / Lexus ES 300h immediately spring to mind. Tough to beat electric motors for torque, but there's not a lot of power at speed.

Many modern cars tend to be pretty good from a torque perspective because everyone has moved to very small turbochargers which mean peak torque is available at crazy low RPMs. The Honda 1.5T makes its 175 lb-ft from like 1900 rpm all the way up through like 5000 rpm, for instance.

Is FWD a must or just a no RWD situation? Putting down stupid power at low RPMs is tough with FWD.

no RWD. There's no way they can handle that in the snow, especially getting in and out of street/lot parking. I tend to ignore AWD ever since seeing my friend get told that he had to replace all 4 tires to fix a flat when we were on a road trip, but i suppose that would work since FWD is less and less common.

Surprised the camry hybrid has power, i'll definitely recommend that

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


mastershakeman posted:

question on behalf of my in laws who have been dicking around looking for a car for two years now without buying one, but This Time They're Serious

Proposed Budget: $30-35k
New or Used: Either
Body Style: Sedan, maybe coupe
How will you be using the car?: Late 30s couple who would be driving 15 minutes each way once or twice a month to see the parents in chicago burbs. No commuting. Maybe a long road trip now and then. No garage spot, so either street parking or uncovered lot.

What aspects are most important to you?
For the husband - reliability.
For the wife, who is from a family of notoriously horrible drivers who don't know how to operate vehicles correctly - power. Picture the little old lady merging onto the interstate at 20 mph and then pushing the pedal halfway down in a v8 to get up to speed. The last car she enjoyed driving was a Charger, but that was a rental in the summer.

The question boils down to: are there any japanese cars (either base or luxury) with power at low rpms and front wheel drive? Or would that be a unicorn? My only other idea is a used Taurus SHO but that doesn't scream reliability.

I have a Taurus SHO and it's been dead reliable. I've had mine about 7 years now, just routine maintenance and a brake job. The only known issues are the internal water pump on the gen 1 3.5L ford engines can go, and take the engine with it if you're not paying attention.

That being said I don't really recommend it to anyone, it has its shortcomings. I'm a Ford Guy ô and love the thing though.

Modern cars these days are pretty fast compared to cars 20 years ago. A V6 Camry has 300HP and does 0-60 in less than 6 seconds these days. So does the Accord.

That being said, I can't imagine spending 30 to 35K on a car only to drive it a couple times a month and let it sit the rest of the time parked on the street. Seems like just such a waste. If I was looking for a once in a while car I was going to street park in Chicago, I'd be lookin for something with 60 to 90 thousand miles on it, with good service records, but maybe not in perfect physical shape in the 15K ish range, maybe more if you look at used Lexus which is probably what I'd be doing.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




mastershakeman posted:

no RWD. There's no way they can handle that in the snow, especially getting in and out of street/lot parking. I tend to ignore AWD ever since seeing my friend get told that he had to replace all 4 tires to fix a flat when we were on a road trip, but i suppose that would work since FWD is less and less common.

Surprised the camry hybrid has power, i'll definitely recommend that

It's basically a 4cyl camry with a bolted on electric motor that makes about 200 total horsepower, but it feels pretty good off the line and low in the powerband because electric motors make peak torque at 0 RPM. The V6 Camry is objectively faster and torquier but if she has a strong aversion to pushing the long pedal on the right the hybrid might actually work better.

The Accord uses turbo 4cyls so there's more torque down low compared to a NA V6, might be worth checking that out as well. The top 2.0T engine has a real geared transmission rather than a CVT on the 1.5T, which could either be better or worse for her driving style.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

mastershakeman posted:

question on behalf of my in laws who have been dicking around looking for a car for two years now without buying one, but This Time They're Serious

Proposed Budget: $30-35k
New or Used: Either
Body Style: Sedan, maybe coupe
How will you be using the car?: Late 30s couple who would be driving 15 minutes each way once or twice a month to see the parents in chicago burbs. No commuting. Maybe a long road trip now and then. No garage spot, so either street parking or uncovered lot.

What aspects are most important to you?
For the husband - reliability.
For the wife, who is from a family of notoriously horrible drivers who don't know how to operate vehicles correctly - power. Picture the little old lady merging onto the interstate at 20 mph and then pushing the pedal halfway down in a v8 to get up to speed. The last car she enjoyed driving was a Charger, but that was a rental in the summer.

The question boils down to: are there any japanese cars (either base or luxury) with power at low rpms and front wheel drive? Or would that be a unicorn? My only other idea is a used Taurus SHO but that doesn't scream reliability.

Your in-laws are in their late 30s?

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008


Interesting, thanks for all the advice. All the hybrid and cvt stuff is totally foreign to me

The complete fear of putting the pedal to the metal is insane to me, i used to drive an 05 pontiac vibe (basically a worse corolla) and just have my foot glued to the floor on onramps and it worked out just fine

Throatwarbler posted:

Your in-laws are in their late 30s?

yeah, ~37-38, why. sister in law and her husband. i think this is the right term maybe im being a dumbass

mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Apr 5, 2021

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


I'm a firm believer in the italian tuneup. I drive the piss out of my cars, they're designed to operate across the range of RPMs, and I don't know if it's still a thing, but driving like a grandma can be worse for the car than driving it more aggressively.

Guinness
Sep 15, 2004



skipdogg posted:

I'm a firm believer in the italian tuneup. I drive the piss out of my cars, they're designed to operate across the range of RPMs, and I don't know if it's still a thing, but driving like a grandma can be worse for the car than driving it more aggressively.

100%, all the drivetrain needs to get exercised across the range. Keeps things working, and lets you know of any problems that could get hidden if you never go over 3krpm.

Inner Light
Jan 2, 2020





Throatwarbler posted:

Your in-laws are in their late 30s?

Could be sister or brother in law and spouse, rather than parents?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

mastershakeman posted:

Interesting, thanks for all the advice. All the hybrid and cvt stuff is totally foreign to me

The complete fear of putting the pedal to the metal is insane to me, i used to drive an 05 pontiac vibe (basically a worse corolla) and just have my foot glued to the floor on onramps and it worked out just fine


yeah, ~37-38, why. sister in law and her husband. i think this is the right term maybe im being a dumbass

Nah I'm probably the dumbass, I just don't hear the term referred to siblings instead of parents much.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Also, I'm sure this ship has sailed or whatever but I would 100% just be signing up for a Zipcar membership for that use case.

Frabba
May 30, 2008

Investing in chewy toy futures

the tingler posted:

Maybe this is a question for a different forum, but is there any significant difference between the Prius and Prius Prime (plugin hybrid) in terms of reliability, cost of ownership?

If/when there is a battery failure, the battery in the prime costs considerably more per https://wholesaledirect.moderntoyota.com/

For the 2021 Prime, the Battery Assembly has a sale price listed of $9,967.80.The non-Prime battery is listed at $2,750.

That cost difference seems huge. Comparatively, the Honda Insight battery is supposed to be ~$3k and the Clarity battery is listed at $6,700 but I'm currently finding it on wholesale sites for under 5k. I'm not very practiced in tracking down part information, but it seems to me that the plug in Prius TCO is considerably elevated by going PHEV, while there is less of a bump moving between the Honda Hybrid/Plug in Hybrid options.

Hopefully someone who knows more than me about cars can explain if I'm picking the wrong parts or something.

Also: lmao holy poo poo the replacement battery for the RAV4 prime has a list price of over 18 thousand dollars, with a sale price of 12 thousand dollars. That puts an end to that little thought experiment.

powderific
May 13, 2004



Grimey Drawer

If you're looking at new vehicles, keep in mind that Toyota has a 10 year, 150k mile warranty on that battery. Do you also look up the new replacement cost of engines from the OEM? Cause if you just buy a whole engine from Toyota that's really expensive too. You could just plan on trading this one out at year 9 if you're extremely worried.

Note that I have no opinion on whether the plug in hybrid is a good idea, just pointing out that the battery replacement costs is maybe not as much of an issue?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Don't pay too much attention to that stuff. The Prius NiMH battery was like eight grand or so on launch from Toyota and obviously it's a lot cheaper now since there are cores for remanufacturing. The HV battery warranty on a new Prius Prime is 10/150. By the time you have a non-warranty failure in the Prime, I guarantee you there will be a cheaper alternative. I'm seeing used HV Prime batteries on various salvage sites for under two thousand bucks, so I imagine the reconditioned market is probably twice that or so right now.

The TCO question is entirely dependent on how much you will be able to drive the car in EV mode but it's pretty unlikely that the Prime is going to save you money,

EPA claims that pure EV is $0.81/25mi vs using gas is $1.33/25 mi. If you drive 250,000 miles all EV vs all gas, that's $5,000 savings over the Prius - but you won't do 100% of your driving as an EV. If you do half of it in EV mode (which still seems like a high side prediction to me) you'll save $2,500. But - OP doesn't drive that much, and has done 93,000 miles in thirteen years. So, half of that in EV mode means a cost savings of $1,860 over that 13 years, or up to $3,720 if you do all the driving in EV mode. Not sure what the purchase premium is on the Pirus Prime but I bet it's only even close to a break-even proposition if you spend almost all of your time driving in EV mode.

The overall TCO should be roughly the same outside of operating costs and purchase costs. It's the same basic car. Yes, the HV battery is probably a bit more expensive but that's unlikely to be very important in the overall TCO - because it is likely to get less expensive, and it's quite unlikely that it will fail.

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


You also have to be careful with state taxing, especially if you don't drive a lot. A regular prius / prius prime where I am gets an extra 75 added to their annual renewals, while the clarity gets 225 since it crosses the magical 30 mile mark. The prime/clarity would also have higher MVET since their msrps are higher. This is an even bigger deal if you don't drive a lot. I ran the numbers myself for a full EV vs a regular gas car at 7k miles/yr, and it ended up basically the same over 10 years, even using consumer report's average discounted maintenance costs / yr for gas cars which has been higher than every car that my family has ever owned

Chopstix
Nov 20, 2002

That's a rib gone. Not broken. Gone.

I had been eyeing at the Rav4 Prime XSE real hard the costs right now are an issue. I am not hurting by any means, and it has a electric range of 42 miles, and my commute is 21 miles each way (I know, in reality I probably wont be able to get that, especially on mostly highway).

I do work a lot, the (minor) AWD is nice (I think the back wheels get like 50hp?), and I am old and cranky so I need to trunk space and leather interior to treat myself. I drive a ford fusion hybrid right now. All the dealerships are jacking up the prices up to $2500 too (but there is a $7500 tax credit).

All this sounds like a reason not to get it despite all the great reviews of the vehicle too but thinking itís not worth a buy right now?

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



gwrtheyrn posted:

You also have to be careful with state taxing, especially if you don't drive a lot. A regular prius / prius prime where I am gets an extra 75 added to their annual renewals, while the clarity gets 225 since it crosses the magical 30 mile mark. The prime/clarity would also have higher MVET since their msrps are higher. This is an even bigger deal if you don't drive a lot. I ran the numbers myself for a full EV vs a regular gas car at 7k miles/yr, and it ended up basically the same over 10 years, even using consumer report's average discounted maintenance costs / yr for gas cars which has been higher than every car that my family has ever owned

Lmao what awful state is this that charges more for EV registration renewals?

Frabba
May 30, 2008

Investing in chewy toy futures

PittTheElder posted:

Lmao what awful state is this that charges more for EV registration renewals?

It's a decently long list, including the entire west coast apparently.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/energy/new-fees-on-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles.aspx

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

The general increasing love of athletics is benefiting our young men, and making their lives better and more worth the living.

PittTheElder posted:

Lmao what awful state is this that charges more for EV registration renewals?

It has been common practice for a century to fund road maintenance through fuel taxes. That worked fine as long as all the vehicles on the road were using fuel.

Since electric vehicles don't use any fuel, they get charged separately in many states to help maintain the roads they're using.

zedprime
Jun 9, 2007

yospos


IIRC some states also earmark it for electronic waste programs so we aren't stuck 20 years from now with an unmanageable Li ion junkyard.

It can be hard to tell where road use tax and ewaste tax ends and gas pork/protectionism begins admittedly.

Uthor
Jul 9, 2006

Gummy Bear Heaven ... It's where I go when the world is too mean.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Also, I'm sure this ship has sailed or whatever but I would 100% just be signing up for a Zipcar membership for that use case.

This. On top of everything else, Chicago will take $100/year for the privilege of parking on the street. IL will take $120/year to register. Insurance in the city can't be cheep.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Deteriorata posted:

It has been common practice for a century to fund road maintenance through fuel taxes. That worked fine as long as all the vehicles on the road were using fuel.

Since electric vehicles don't use any fuel, they get charged separately in many states to help maintain the roads they're using.

Huh. I mean I guess I gotta ask, do fuel taxes in the states get pushed into a road specific fund? We have fuel taxes up here in Canada but I'm 99% sure it just goes into general revenue, and infrastructure maintenance/upgrades are funded just like anything else.

Honestly in thinking about it, funding these things through registration almost makes more sense, since you could charge way more based on weight/axle which seems to be the actual thing that matters for road damage. But how do you justify charging electric vehicles more in an age of climate change, especially in the liberal west coast states?

the tingler
Jul 15, 2009


KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:


EPA claims that pure EV is $0.81/25mi vs using gas is $1.33/25 mi. If you drive 250,000 miles all EV vs all gas, that's $5,000 savings over the Prius - but you won't do 100% of your driving as an EV. If you do half of it in EV mode (which still seems like a high side prediction to me) you'll save $2,500. But - OP doesn't drive that much, and has done 93,000 miles in thirteen years. So, half of that in EV mode means a cost savings of $1,860 over that 13 years, or up to $3,720 if you do all the driving in EV mode. Not sure what the purchase premium is on the Pirus Prime but I bet it's only even close to a break-even proposition if you spend almost all of your time driving in EV mode.

I can't remember, but why do you use that methodology instead of mpg? If I have 133mpg in EV mode vs 55mpg in hybrid, that's a much bigger difference over time than with the EPA's estimated fuel costs, especially if you drive under 25 miles with a full charge.

edit: sorry if I'm going too far down this tangent, but this is assuming that the PHEV uses gas at all in the first 25 miles under a full charge, and I haven't found a conclusive answer as to whether it's entirely electric or uses some combo.

the tingler fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Apr 6, 2021

Ornery and Hornery
Oct 22, 2020



Proposed Budget: Less than $10k?
New or Used: Used
Body Style:
  • Sedan, suv, or hatchback.
  • Don't want a big vehicle.
  • Prefer 4-door but if 2-door is a big difference then that's okay.
How will you be using the car?:
  • Mainly just day-to-day city driving.
  • Somewhat occasionally driving ~3 hours on highway to a different metro.
  • Somewhat less occasionally driving up big mountains for snowboarding.
  • Generally just driving myself.
What aspects are most important to you?
  • Longevity. I don't want to have to buy a car again for a while after buying this car.
  • All wheel drive.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007






Ornery and Hornery posted:

Proposed Budget: Less than $10k?
New or Used: Used
Body Style:
  • Sedan, suv, or hatchback.
  • Don't want a big vehicle.
  • Prefer 4-door but if 2-door is a big difference then that's okay.
How will you be using the car?:
  • Mainly just day-to-day city driving.
  • Somewhat occasionally driving ~3 hours on highway to a different metro.
  • Somewhat less occasionally driving up big mountains for snowboarding.
  • Generally just driving myself.
What aspects are most important to you?
  • Longevity. I don't want to have to buy a car again for a while after buying this car.
  • All wheel drive.

Do you live in a state (CA) where chains are required without AWD? If not, Prius, Corolla or whatever other small Japanese hatch/sedan you can get a good price on. Hatch is probably better for the cargo space.

If you're unfortunate enough to live in CA or similar, you're probably going to have a really hard time finding a reliable long-term AWD car in your budget. We're talking Subi with 6 figure mileage here...

KillHour fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Apr 6, 2021

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




the tingler posted:

I can't remember, but why do you use that methodology instead of mpg? If I have 133mpg in EV mode vs 55mpg in hybrid, that's a much bigger difference over time than with the EPA's estimated fuel costs, especially if you drive under 25 miles with a full charge.

edit: sorry if I'm going too far down this tangent, but this is assuming that the PHEV uses gas at all in the first 25 miles under a full charge, and I haven't found a conclusive answer as to whether it's entirely electric or uses some combo.

The Prius Prime doesn't use gas for the first 25 miles, at least in the EPA test.

Whenever you get in to PHEVs and EVs, the EPA does not provide MPG, because it doesn't make sense. MPGe is the distance traveled under the equivalent energy consumption of a gallon of gasoline, so basically distance/33.7 kWh of energy consumed. What it means in this case is that for the first ~25 mi of the journey, the car is consuming electricity at a rate of 0.25 kWh/mi (6.25 kWh/25 miles), and after that it consumes gas at the rate of 0.61 kWh/mi (15.25 kWh/25 miles).

Great, under EV power the Prius is a lot more energy efficient, that's good. However, you haven't yet accounted for fuel cost differences, and what you actually care about is cost. EPA by default uses $0.13/kWh and $2.87/gal gas, so for the EPA's purposes electricity is actually more expensive than gas per kWh - $0.13 vs $0.09. Granted, this probably isn't a fully realistic picture as most people set their EVs to charge at home under offpeak rates, which makes a huge difference. Offpeak rates in my area are like 35% of peak rates including distribution charges, so that changes the calculation significantly and makes electricity cheaper than gas per kWh. If you have access to free charging at work or something like that, it also helps. But fundamentally, a PHEV or EV at this point is basically a lifestyle choice. It's not a financially prudent choice. Even if the Prius Prime were free to power, it takes 71,000 miles at $2.87/gal for the Prius Prime to break even with the ordinary Prius at its $3,700 price premium, and that's assuming time value of money is fake, which it very much is not. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying a PHEV necessarily, I just think it's important that unless almost all your trips are within EV range and you are charging offpeak, the financials are not in favor of the PHEV. And if that's your use case, you're far better off from both an environment and cost perspective buying a used Nissan Leaf and renting a car for occasional long trips.

Side note on MPG: MPG in general is a lovely metric because it's nonlinear. Each unit increase in MPG is less of a reduction in marginal energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by 10 mpg going from 10 to 20 halves your energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by another 10 mpg reduces your energy consumption by a third. Using kWh/100 mi or liters/100km or gal/100 mi is much better; kWh/distance metrics are obviously superior because they doesn't care about fuel type. If you ignore MPGe forever and just look at cost/25 (or better yet put your localized energy costs in to fueleconomy.gov) or kWh/100 on the Monroney you will have a much better understanding of efficiency and energy costs

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

I want to thank this thread - lots of thinking and forcing me to consider what my must-haves were, what my nice-to-haves were, and how they all ranked. I ended up allowing myself a little more in the budget and have an order in with Carvana for a 2018 MKZ Hybrid, around 10,200 miles. Autotempest's listings didn't have anything in a trim and color I would like in a 500-mile radius, and once I started seeing stuff outside the radius, the cost for transporting it threw it within the Carvana price anyway.

It was basically "do you want all these must-haves, or will you be OK with a black or white car?" and those two were my absolute nuh-uhs. It came out to just a hair over $31k after tax and delivery.

Now it's just a matter of getting the credit union to finish the application review. I'm probably going to end up borrowing around $14k at 2.49%, and I can definitely live with that for a 36 month loan. FYI, it's via Polish & Slavic FCU, and you don't have to be Polish or Slavic - just be a member of one of their organizations, which is like $10 a year for the Kosciuszko Foundation. It takes a week or so for your membership stuff to process so it's worth setting up a basic savings account just to be prepped for future loans if you're exploring.

Anyway, now I get to think about white sidewall tires

nm
Jan 28, 2008

"I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The Prius Prime doesn't use gas for the first 25 miles, at least in the EPA test.

Whenever you get in to PHEVs and EVs, the EPA does not provide MPG, because it doesn't make sense. MPGe is the distance traveled under the equivalent energy consumption of a gallon of gasoline, so basically distance/33.7 kWh of energy consumed. What it means in this case is that for the first ~25 mi of the journey, the car is consuming electricity at a rate of 0.25 kWh/mi (6.25 kWh/25 miles), and after that it consumes gas at the rate of 0.61 kWh/mi (15.25 kWh/25 miles).

Great, under EV power the Prius is a lot more energy efficient, that's good. However, you haven't yet accounted for fuel cost differences, and what you actually care about is cost. EPA by default uses $0.13/kWh and $2.87/gal gas, so for the EPA's purposes electricity is actually more expensive than gas per kWh - $0.13 vs $0.09. Granted, this probably isn't a fully realistic picture as most people set their EVs to charge at home under offpeak rates, which makes a huge difference. Offpeak rates in my area are like 35% of peak rates including distribution charges, so that changes the calculation significantly and makes electricity cheaper than gas per kWh. If you have access to free charging at work or something like that, it also helps. But fundamentally, a PHEV or EV at this point is basically a lifestyle choice. It's not a financially prudent choice. Even if the Prius Prime were free to power, it takes 71,000 miles at $2.87/gal for the Prius Prime to break even with the ordinary Prius at its $3,700 price premium, and that's assuming time value of money is fake, which it very much is not. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying a PHEV necessarily, I just think it's important that unless almost all your trips are within EV range and you are charging offpeak, the financials are not in favor of the PHEV. And if that's your use case, you're far better off from both an environment and cost perspective buying a used Nissan Leaf and renting a car for occasional long trips.

Side note on MPG: MPG in general is a lovely metric because it's nonlinear. Each unit increase in MPG is less of a reduction in marginal energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by 10 mpg going from 10 to 20 halves your energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by another 10 mpg reduces your energy consumption by a third. Using kWh/100 mi or liters/100km or gal/100 mi is much better; kWh/distance metrics are obviously superior because they doesn't care about fuel type. If you ignore MPGe forever and just look at cost/25 (or better yet put your localized energy costs in to fueleconomy.gov) or kWh/100 on the Monroney you will have a much better understanding of efficiency and energy costs

One thing to factor in is tax credits. With federal and state (CA) tax credits, the plug in prius wasn't any more expensive (actually cheaper) than a standard prius when by dad bought one last year. The CA rebate has expired, but the feds still give you more than 4 grand.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Good point and one that I should have included!

vandalism
Aug 4, 2003


Sup car goon-ru. I am in the market for a new (used) car to replace a Jeep Patriot.

Here are my thoughts about what I'd like to have in this car:

Proposed Budget: $25-30k
New or Used: used
Body Style: SUV
How will you be using the car?: Trekking across the midwest, commuting to work, running errands, transporting dogs in crates (have to have 48" of cargo width in the back.
What aspects are most important to you? Reliability, longevity, resale value, 4wd (live out in the country)
I live in the good old 'Merica and I can drive anywhere to buy the thing. Currently the Patriot is listed at like $7k trade-in on Carvana, so that will help if I go toward the 30k end of the budget.

Any ideas?

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


Toyota 4Runner would be my top pick, but thereís only 44 inches of space between the wheel wells so that might not work.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

Oct 3, 2016 00:06: SO I'm also in 1st year classes and it's going pretty well I think.

Dec 9, 2016 15:46: Well I just took my first law school final exam. I think I've made a huge mistake.

So you need something that can carry a 4'x8' sheet of plywood. Basically that's a minivan (maybe not even all minivans, I think the Sienna is too small?), a Tahoe/Suburban/Expedition or a 1/2t truck with a cap.

Ornery and Hornery
Oct 22, 2020



KillHour posted:

Do you live in a state (CA) where chains are required without AWD? If not, Prius, Corolla or whatever other small Japanese hatch/sedan you can get a good price on. Hatch is probably better for the cargo space.

If you're unfortunate enough to live in CA or similar, you're probably going to have a really hard time finding a reliable long-term AWD car in your budget. We're talking Subi with 6 figure mileage here...

Thank you for the response.

I checked out carvana and it looks like Iíd need to expand my budget to $20k before I find something quality.

Does hat sound about right?

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007






Ornery and Hornery posted:

Thank you for the response.

I checked out carvana and it looks like I’d need to expand my budget to $20k before I find something quality.

Does hat sound about right?

Probably. Why exactly do you need AWD? Reliability is at odds with AWD, so saying both are most important to you is like saying you need a car that can go 200 but also get good gas mileage.

Ornery and Hornery
Oct 22, 2020



I didnít realize it was that much of a trade off / tension.

AWD is to help safely go up steep snowy mountains.

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Maksimus54
Jan 5, 2011


Just buy an Impreza or Crosstrek. You should be able to buy new or nearly new for $20k.

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