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Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


GOONS - I think I found the right car for me, my GF, and our 107 pound Great Pyrenees, but I need a cross-check from Internet Strangers Who Had Ten Dollars At One Point on whether or not I can afford it. You may or may not have my best interests at heart, but at least I can count on you guys to not really give a poo poo one way or another be dispassionate. :v:

quote:

Proposed Budget: I'm approved for up to 24,000 and 105% LTV, 7 years or less in age, 70k or less in mileage. Must be a franchised dealer. We're thinking about driving down from Denver to Santa Fe and buying the linked 2010 Mini Cooper Clubman S this coming weekend, but we're also open to going to look at other suggestions.
How will you be using the car?: 44 mile per day round/trip commuting, Autocrossing, some road trips, spirited mountain driving. My current car is a '97 M3, and I'm a HUGE fan of how it just feels planted on the road.
What aspects are most important to you? I like the reliability that my current BMW has given me. Mostly it's been tires, brakes, oil changes for 5 years. Cooling System is fresh, Suspension is on the to-do list (Struts, Shocks, Ball Joints, Control Arms, Bushings will be about ~$1100)

Auto Situation
I've got a '97 BMW M3 that I bought in 2008. It's been paid off for several years. It's got some maintenance debt (suspension parts) that needs to be handled ($1100-$1200 to get the car back to 100%), but it's otherwise rock solid and otherwise well maintained at 194,999 miles.
She has a 2007 Yaris S Automatic Sedan, financed through her Credit Union. She owes $6300 on it. Autotrader says the national average for '07 Yaris' is $9300. (~$3000 equity)
I also have a 2000 Suzuki DRZ-400E Dual Sport motorcycle that I haven't registered or ridden this year. It's got a ton of extra stuff (5 Gallon Clarke tank, two sets of plastics, two stock gas tanks, Baja Designs lighting kit, and a complete 440 Overbore kit), and it's probably worth $3500 for everything on Craigslist.

Financial Situation
Buying the Car
The monthly payments on the MINI would probably come to about $390/mo/60 months. with my pre-arranged financing. The kicker is that it's in New Mexico, so Tax/Title/License won't be rolled into the loan like it would be if I bought in Colorado, and I'd have to pony up about $2200 for that stuff here.

So - the tentative plan would look like this:
17 August: Drive to New Mexico, Buy the MINI, Drive back to Colorado.
19 August: Pay Tax/Title/License in Colorado with a credit card.
19 August: Put the DRZ up for sale on Craigslist for $3500, take $3000.
19 Autust: Put the Yaris up for sale on Craigslist/Autotrader/Cars.com/Etc. for $10000. Take $9000-9500.
~15 September: Pay off the credit card. Buy the parts required to do the remaining repairs on the M3. Use any remaining balance from the sale of the bike and Yaris to pay down the MINI loan.
21 September: Do the repairs on the M3.
~21 September: First payment due on the MINI. Pay $400/mo for 60 months.

Debt and Budget
I'm currently making about $3500/mo net, and I've been on a mad crusade to eliminate the credit card debt that I've had, paying down about $470/mo. If I keep the pace, I'd have zero balances by the end of January.
I've got an additional $250/mo over and above monthly expenses in the budget that has been going into a Buffer/Emergency Fund - which is where the money came from to catch up the repairs on the cooling system for the M3, etc. It's also where infrequent expenses like Car Registration, new Tires, and the Steam Summer Sale come from. If I reduce that surplus, the money would likely come out of the Dining Out budget column, which is currently about $300/mo.
Car Insurance would go up from $77/mo for the M3 to $93 for the Mini. Negligible difference, IMHO.

I can post a detailed budget if there's interest.

So...would you, or would you not?
Should I? Should I not?

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Aug 15, 2013

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Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


nm posted:

You aren't getting $9-10k for an 2007 Yaris. Maybe $8000 if it is in really nice shape.

Also, please tell me you aren't paying anything near $18k for that car. Try $14k, $15k at the very most.
I'm curious where you got your pricing numbers because it sure wasn't any of the Big Three Pricing Guides?
KBB is $19,204.
NADA is $18,900.
Edmunds (which I can't link direclty to) says $19,501. Trade-in is $16,500.

As for the Yaris, yeah, we're being a *little* optimistic, but overly so.
KBB says $7300
NADA says $9,100, but that's "Clean Retail".
Edmunds says $6,912
However - the average price for all 2007 Yaris Sedans under 100k miles on Autotrader is $9472 today, and we've got maintenance records from the day she bought it, so 9k isn't entirely moon pie in the sky.

We'd need to squeeze about $3500 extra out of the Yaris and the DRZ both, which means that the Yaris can, in theory, go for as little as the $6300 payoff, if the bike sells for $3500.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Leperflesh posted:



I think $8k for your trade-in is realistic. If you want $9k you may have to sell it yourself.

Yeah, we're planning on private party sale after a good detailing thanks to the detailing thread suggestions. =)
It only took a dealer offering a friend half what the trade was worth for me to basically not ever consider that a viable option. She got boned HARD on her trade. No thanks. I'd rather deal with craigslist cranks, lowballers, and flakes than to bring a trade in to a dealer.

Edit: on value - The local Carmax has a horizon blue 2009 with 37k for $18,599.
Talking to a Wells Fargo rep, she took the VIN of both and valued the '10 at 18725, and the 09 at 18,000 even (we were talking about LTV at that point)

Double Edit: This is the Edmunds valuation accounting for the options I can (more or less) confirm from the pictures:
Example: I haven't found a car with heated seats where they haven't opted for the Cold Weather package, which includes the folding and heated mirrors.


I wish I could find a site that did MINI VIN lookups with options the way BMWVIN.com can.

Would this be a fair price-match bargaining token to get the price down to someplace more palatable? Note: No heated seats, no automatic climate control (so, no Cold Weather Package), no sunroof on that one.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 16, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


skipdogg posted:

Honestly, if the deal is done and you're happy, I wouldn't worry about it.
I agree. Don't let a bunch of goons talk you into buyer's (Lessee's) remorse, when you feel you came out decent right now.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Maultaschen posted:

I've posted in this thread a few times already, but I keep doubting myself. So now I'm looking for advice from square one.

Given a situation where I need a new car within the next month or two due to severe mechanical problems, only have about $1000 for a down payment saved up (but could raid my buffer for more), and need to save for two other very important things (wedding and honeymoon) during the same period, what's the best approach?

- Grab whatever I can for less than $7000 and sell it once I'm through this?
- Find a good year-end lease that gives me room to save for a replacement when it's up?
- Finance a greater amount to get a car that will last me longer, with higher payments?

For reference, I take home around $2800 a month and currently spend ~25% on monthly bills and 40% on savings/buffer. That doesn't include a car payment or insurance. It would include both of those once a new car enters the picture. I also intend to move next year to a better (read: more expensive) location.
Were it my situation, and my money, I'd try to put 25% down on a $4000 car someplace, and pay well over the monthly payment to try to knock out the other 3000 ASAP. Your budget numbers indicate that you're socking away $1120 bucks a month. Making 6x $500 car payments shouldn't set your savings back too much for too long.
I think that's about where I think you generally get into serious "decent, reliable car" territory.
These are the car's I'd be going to look at in your shoes (but with my Metro area :v: )
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/4009108776.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/3993874204.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/3970855832.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/3991436384.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/4008450438.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/3915553847.html
http://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/3946475781.html

That'd be my starting point - On the surface, none of them is a *great* car, but they're good enough to get you through the wedding and honeymoon - and then some, probably without a whole lot of drama.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Aug 18, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Maultaschen posted:

Does anyone see any red flags in all this?
My credit union has pre-approved me for $7000 at 4.75%. I still plan on putting at least $1000 down.
The only thing that I'd double check is that they've pre-approved you to purchase from a private seller.
cool kids inc. and I are looking to buy a car, too, and all our pre-approved offers have been to purchase through a dealer so far.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

I don't really know how to describe it, but my Saturn just feels tiny. It's not very long, it's not very tall, and it's not very wide. Also the frame isn't very obtrusive. It's probably a safety thing, but new cars I see just seem bulkier than my car.
A lot of what you're describing is *tremendously* improved crash dynamics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDyeWofcLY

I get the same feeling when I look at my 1997 BMW M3 vs a new BMW 135i. They're both about the same dimensions, the 135i is ~2.5 shorter, but ~2.5 taller, and 1.5" wider, but it looks WAY bulkier to me.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

Well I test drove the Spark, it wasn't a huge piece of poo poo, I can get the trim and color I want for $13,500, gonna do the needful.
After reading your description again, I'd be in the market for $15-20k worth of MY 2010 car. You're going to own the car for a dog's age, so you should get something that will still meet your needs if/when you start a family (meaningful back seats and cargo room), like a Mini Cooper Clubman, Mazda 3, or Ford Focus. Let some other schmo take the 30% depreciation hit.

Also. By "It's still a Daewoo" needs some context. When Daewoo had dealerships in the states, you pretty much had to use Dealer Financing. I know that both RoadLoans and PeopleFirst (Now CapitalOne) had clauses that said "No Bonded, Branded, Salvage, Theft Recovery titles. We do not finance Daewoo, Suzuki or Isuzu vehicles". The finance companies won't put their money behind cars that aren't expected to last the length of the loan...

Another data point. Keep an eye out and see how many Chevy Aveos or Daewoo Lanos you see on the road, especially compared to, say Ford Focus' or Honda Civic Hatchbacks.

Speaking of which, a 2009-2010 Honda Fit is averaging $13,800 nationwide on Autotrader today, and is definitely one of those "Keep it forever" cars. There's one in Pennsylvania with 2160 miles on it for $14,700. I'm not even sure that I'd call that a "used" car.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 25, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

I don't really want to mess around with a used car, since I'm going to be keeping this for so long, I'd rather just know it's history from the start.
It's *because* you're going to be keeping it so long that I'm recommending a 3 year old used car. It's absolutely the best value for your dollar. Newer than that, you're going to take a bath on depreciation. Older than that, and the cars start racking up the miles. One thing to keep in mind, though is that cars these days rack up an IMPRESSIVE number of miles without serious issues. My '97 BMW is about to roll over 200k, the GF's 2007 Yaris is about to roll over 100k, so if you pick up a used car with less than 30k, it'll last the number of miles that you'll put on it over the next 10 years.

FISHMANPET posted:

Do you have any source for this?
It was listed on my GF's RoadLoans package when she bought her '99 Galant in 2001.
It was listed on my PeopleFirst package when I bought my 2003 Pontiac Vibe GT.
It was on the Blank Check from my Credit Union when I bought the BMW in '08.
It's in the current CapOne Blank Check package I have sitting on my desk tonight - except that they've added Oldsmobile and Saab to the list.

CapOne posted:

Capital One« finances new and used cars, light trucks, minivans, and SUVs that will be used for personal use. Vehicles can be up to 7 years old or newer and up to 70,000 miles. Financing is arranged through a Blank Check« that works like a personal check.



The Blank Check may not be used to buy out an auto lease or purchase the following vehicles: motorcycles, motor homes, RVs, ATVs, boats, amphibious vehicles, taxis, limousines, camper vans, tow trucks, commercial vehicles, vehicles with passenger capacities exceeding 10, vehicles with greater than 1 ton payload capacity, freight liners, tractor trailers, dump trucks, armored vehicles, conversion vans, kit cars, rebodied, junk, branded, or salvaged title vehicles, lemon vehicles, gray market vehicles, vehicles originally manufactured for sale outside of the U.S., or any vehicles that do not have a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) or title issued to it. We do not finance Oldsmobile, Daewoo, Saab, Suzuki or Isuzu vehicles. We may determine a vehicle to be commercial, based on the model and/or information provided to us

Rhyno posted:

Then buy a bicycle. These guys are trying to help and you're sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALALA.
This.

You're going to buy the first car you drove, and we're telling you to CROSS SHOP SOME OTHER poo poo, man. For you, specifically, this is a longer term commitment than any of the rest of us are likely to make, so we want to help you make the very best decision you can. The way you're going at it? It's not quite as bad as marrying the first girl who fucks you, but it's drat close.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Aug 25, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

So 30k is about the mileage I would be looking for in a 2010 car?
Autotrader only has two 2009 Fits in my area, which is a major metro.
Any thoughts on any of these?
[/url]
At 5k miles per year, and a lifetime of 10 years for your purposes, I'd be willing to go up to 45-50k miles as a baseline.
The grey one is priced a little high compared to the other two.
The white one is 500 over KBB value - might have options that aren't listed, might just be the dealer padding KBB by 500 (which, in your case, isn't a dealbreaker, I don't think)
In your shoes, I'd be all over that white Fit. Partially because I think white cars are awesome. Partially because it's got ~1/2 the miles of the blue one. Partially because talking the dealer down to a reasonable price on the grey one will be a bigger hassle than just buying the white one and calling it a day.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Aug 25, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

Is there an easy way to see the trim levels for non current model years? So if I wanna figure out what's inside that white Fit, can I find that out from Honda?
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Honda-Fit-2009/options/
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2009/honda/fit/packages_options.html

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

Discussed with the wife and she flipped out about the idea of getting a used car, so welp, I guess it's the spark.

E:
So the blue Fit was a trade in at the Honda dealership that is selling it, yet the dealer has chosen to not give it Certified Pre Owned status? Is there a reason a dealer wouldn't do that?
Looking at other CPOs in the MPLS area, I'm going to guess that the Blue Fit has more miles than the dealership is willing to sell as a CPO - particularly since there probably isn't the margin to begin with on a Fit that there is on an Accord or a CR-V. I didn't notice that the grey Fit is a CPO last night. I found it again on the Inver Grove Honda website, where it's more clearly labeled as a Fit Sport.

Yeah, CPO 2010 Fit Sport? I missed that in my KBB lookup. $14,410. Again, about $500 padding, but you're keeping it a dog's age, and that $500 works out to $5/mo. for your Total Cost of Ownership. If you can put $14,400 on the paper and they take it, great. If not, I wouldn't cry myself to sleep at night.

As far as buying used goes, it sounds like your wife could use a little education on New Car Depreciation.
(Click link. Look at Year One depreciation, then come on back. I'll wait...)
Do the two of you have 29 $100 bills to light on fire and dance around under a full moon?
Has the car you're driving now been relatively trouble-free for the last 10 years? You've put 50k on it, how many miles does it have total?
Your current car *is* a used car. What makes you (plural, meaning *her*) think that a newer, more reliable used car is going to be less reliable than your older, more used, used car?

As for you and your fascination with buying the Sonic because it's CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, I ask you this.
When was the last time in your life that purchasing the cheapest possible item was also your best long-term investment?
Transparency: Basically all of my furniture is from IKEA. The GF and I built some awesome standing desks (night, under construction) (day) with IKEA stuff. I have no illusions about keeping them 10 years, though. I buy IKEA because I don't (and don't plan on) owning a home, and what works in this apartment may well be awful in the apartment I'm living in in 3-5 years.

Homework:
Go look this week at the CPO Fit Sport at Inver Grove Honda.
While you're there, walk across to Inver Grove Ford Lincoln and look at this Ford Fiesta S, and This Fiesta S Hatchback which will be too much money for you, but know that you're looking at this one only because it's a hatchback. The dealer has the one you would actually want on order.

Everyone has been pushing you to cross shop *something* before you settle on the cheapest available alternative, because the cheapest available alternative is still thousands and thousands of dollars. If you truly do only want to buy once, then spending even an entire month deciding which thing is absolutely the best use of your money should be high on your list of Important Things To Do.

The Easy Thing To Do is very rarely also The Best Thing To Do.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Aug 25, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


nm posted:

Hum, Minneapolis? The spark only has a 93in wheelbase (a good 10in shorter than the sl1, which is a lot). I wonder how stable that actually is in the snow and ice. A longer wheelbase is much more stable.
That is quite a bit shorter than even a mini, which is fairly tail happy.
Doesn't matter as much when you're commuting by bus and only driving 5000 miles per year on average, I would think.

Which spurs a thought.
Purchasing a new car vs. the cost of moving closer to someplace with a Zipcar and/or HourCar parked nearby.
A $300/mo car payment, with Collision and Comprehensive insurance requirements on top of that (Call it $100/mo) means that you could move toward downtown (on a bus line that takes you more or less directly to work) and (if you could find someplace for about the same amount of money - good luck with that), you could rent 41 hours/mo. worth of a ZipCar Prius, or 32 hours and change of a Mercedes C300 Sedan.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

Her view is completely irrational, and I recognize that, but sometimes you have to make compromises for domestic bliss.
Fair enough. Go do your homework this week. Look at the CPO Fit. Yes, it's used. But (and this is how you sell it to the DearHeart) it also has a warranty just like you'll get on a new car. It's not some high school shitbox.
Look at the two variants of the Ford Focus, the sedan and the hatchback.
That way you'll have at least looked at 4 different cars.

If you still REALLY want the Spark after that, good on ya. =)

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FISHMANPET posted:

Can I transfer my existing plates to a new car? My plates expire Sept 10th and I've already paid the renewal. It was only $40 or so, but I'd like to apply that towards the new registration, and also keep the same plates. Or should I just eat the $40 and get new plates?

And I'm probably going to donate my existing car to charity so I don't really care about keeping its registration anyway...
License Plates:
A quick google search says that in Minnesota, the plates stay with the car unless they are custom plates.

Registration Refund:
Despite what the former says, when you dispose of the car, I suggest keep the plates. You'll need to return them when you use this form. https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/dvs/forms-documents/Documents/MV_ClaimforRefund.pdf
They may tell you that you shouldn't have kept the plates. If they do, play dumb and point at the box on the bottom of the form that says clearly "HAVE PLATES/STICKERS BEEN RETURNED?" and claim that you thought you had to turn in the plates to the DMV because that's how your parents did it when you were a kid (or some bullshit similar story)

Been out to look at that Focus yet? :v:

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Maultaschen posted:

I'm looking at a 2004 Pontiac Vibe with about 146k miles and a list price of $5600. A few questions:

- The Carfax shows that it got about 30k as a rental in its first year. After that, it only had one owner. How true is the rental car stigma?

- The dealer is an actual Honda dealership, not just a used lot. Does that mean anything for the current state of the car? I'm under the impression that cars with existing problems get auctioned or otherwise don't stay on a big dealer's lot.

For reference, I hope to negotiate the price down to $5000-5400 including taxes and fees.
Run. Do not walk, RUN away from this car.

I had a 2003 Vibe GT that *wasn't* a rental. I bought it in 2006 with about 24k on the clock and sold in in 2008 (trade in on my '97 M3) with about 38k on the clock.

In April 2008, my 11 year old, 124k/mile BMW had fewer squeaks, rattles, and 'gripes' and things-that-I-think-are-about-to-go-to-poo poo than my 5 year old Toyota Pontiac built by the UAW at the NUMMI plant in Fremont.

I can't imagine what a rental Vibe would be like, even if the second owner was my mom...who has put over 250k miles (6.5k/year) on her '71 Cutlass Supreme Convertible. She's owned it since 1974, and it's on its third complete engine teardown/rebuild currently. She really takes care of her car. I would say "cars" but, well, there's only been the one for almost as long as I've known her.

FWIW, my 124k/mile BMW now has 195,000 miles, and STILL has fewer squeaks, rattles and gripes than that Vibe did. I would recommend pretty much any of these that aren't a 7-series before I would recommend that Vibe to you.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Aug 27, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Maultaschen posted:

Wait, Vibes are supposed to have a pretty good reputation? Consumer Report awards and good reliability scores on Edmunds and all that. I do plan to test drive this one on Thursday.

Also, I had my mechanic do a pre-purchase inspection on a Mazda 3 yesterday. Turned out to have a bunch of problems with the right front wheel, including a bent rim. Illegal window tint, too. Ran away from that one.
Mine may be an "n=1" story, but it was a giant sack of poo poo, and I had the top of the line GT model. It never left me stranded or anything, but I had plenty of fit and finish problems (and a few mechanicals, like the 120v socket and the driver's window occasionally deciding to just not work at 100% anymore) developing when I dumped it. I'm generally pro-union, but the *noticeably* deteriorating condition (squeaky rattle developing behind the driver's side dash, about 4" down by the sound of it?) in a car with less than 40k was enough to put me off anything built by the UAW forever.

Lease+Finance chat:
For someone who did some stupid poo poo in the spring 2009 and tanked their credit, at what point (FICO Score) during the repair cycle should a lease become a viable option? My score has so far recovered to the middle third of the 600's (615-654, depending on bureau), and aggressively paying down what little cc debt I have is boosting my score as I go along. Leasing sounds pretty attractive, but I don't think I'm quite there yet - I'm shopping for a second car, and have a pre-approved package in the low 6% range. I figure (probably correctly) that talking to a dealer about leasing is still just going to waste both our times and get me a good chuckle at this point? (Y/n)

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Aug 28, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Throatwarbler posted:

You are unironically recommending someone buy a $5,000 E39 with a V8 instead of a loving Corolla because of reliability.
Nope. Not my intent.
I linked every BMW between 5000 and 5500 (his price range) for sale in the entire USA. 7 series and all. I was at work, and didn't have a bunch of time to go through and cherrypick.
Let me amend my statement.
Pretty much any (stock) $5000-5500 E36 (1995-1999) 3-series (or possibly 5 series with an inline 6 - 525i, 528i, 530i) would be an equal or better bet (In my opinion, and based on my own experience with both cars) than the Vibe I owned. Particularly if you get maintenance records with it - which is a LOT easier to do/find with a BMW than a Pontiac.

I've put 71k on the M3 in 5.5 years, and it's only needed Tires/Alignment/Wipers/Oil/Car Wash and some scheduled/preventive maintenance, which ran just a bit less than $1000: Water pump, thermostat + housing, hoses, radiator, brake pads/rotors.
At 200k, it's about overdue for a suspension refresh (shocks/struts, control arms, bushings) for another $1200, and it should be good for another 4-5 years/50-60k without drama.
The Vibe GT (which I admit he's not looking at) got 28 MPG. The M3 gets 23.5.
The one place that I *have* to concede is that you can't sleep in the BMW very well, where the Vibe is pretty comfortable (if a bit stuffy after a while) if you flip the front seatback forward.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Aug 28, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Juando290 posted:

Depending on manufacturer, if you can get financed, they will also lease to you. Again, using Honda as an example (since that is the dealer I am based at, though I sell on Chevy, ford, Toyota, Lexus and Subaru lots as well) Honda has three tiers of credit that they will approve for financing. They don't have special requirements for leases. If they can approve you through manufacturer financing, then you will have the option for leasing in the same tier. If you have no collections, you will be fine (people with a 700 score or above qualify for Hondas top tier currently, so you are close to breaking into their second tier right now...)

Also, one last lease bit..if you are thinking about buying a house for any reason, leasing is also good on a car because your debt to income ratio is lower. Like my write up, your debt will not show $20,000 being financed, only $6,000.
Hmm. Now you have me wondering whether I could get into a lease on a Mini...if ever there was a car you'd only want for a few years...


quote:

And Pontiac vibe/Toyota matrix.
Oh, god. I forgot about the loving headlights. Yes. I put more bulbs in that drat car. Had both burn out a mile from home on the commute home one winter. Drove the last mile on residential side streets using the fog lights and street lights to guide the way.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Rhyno posted:

It's almost as impressive as the cut of my sawzall.

Which will be helpful when we cut the loving roof off his car.
Hey, a convertible sedan worked pretty decent for JFK.
Well, except for that one time, I guess. But after a visit to The Detailing Thread - Sperging About Bone Fragments and Paint Swirls it was good enough for Johnson, Nixon, and Ford!
I'm in. When do we get started?

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


I'm hugely biased at the moment, because I've got one on a truck being delivered to me as we speak, but...this is a suggestion that's not even on your radar at the moment.

2009-2011 Mini Cooper Clubman with up to ~50k miles.
We have a Great Pyrenees, and when she's in the crate, she requires the XL Petmate crate (700 size, as IATA counts it - it's the largest crate that will still fit through the cargo door on an Airbus or Boeing 737), and it test-fit in the back of the clubman with my seatback upright just a little more than normal, and one click forward on the seat track, and that still leaves a fair amount of room for other junk along the sides, without counting the space in the hidden tray compartment in the very back.
The crate is 48x32x35 (LWH), and the cargo space with the seats down is 44"x40"x40.1" (LWH). It's kind of a tight fit longitudinally, and we have to do some finagling to get it through the barn doors, but vertically and horizontally, it's more than fine, which is amazing, because the drat thing is *enormous*.


It absolutely would NOT fit in the back of the Subaru Legacy Wagon I owned at one point. I had to separate the two halves and stack them inside one another to make it fit, which clearly defeats the purpose of having the crate - unless you're taking said crate to the airport to get stuffed into a (sorta) big ol' jetliner.
For non-flying use, we're thinking about something like this, which would take much less finagling to get in and out of the back. Or even just getting one of these (because long white hair in a car with a black interior...and that looks like we could just hose it off and dry it in the sun periodically.)

I suspect that'd be MORE than enough room for your greyhound, and whatever work-stuff she's got to carry. Probably both at once, even. And the 'jump-in' height is much lower than with a traditional crossover or SUV, which I know is a concern with Noel as she gets older - and I can imagine that might be a concern with a greyhound, as well.

It'll get 28/31/36 MPG combined in the base version, and 26/29/34 MPG with the turbocharged S version - which is a friggin HOOT to drive with the 6-speed manual. Motor Trend routinely flogged the CRAP out of their 2009 long-term John Cooper Works Clubman test car (as they are prone to do with their sportier LTT cars), and still returned 25.6 MPG over about 4500 miles.

It's a car that's well supported by an enthusiast community, so there will be a LOT of DIY maintenance articles available. Here's one source.

I've seen the occasional "The MINI IS NOT RELIABLE" claim here and there, but I'm not sure where that is coming from...Everything I've seen says that the reliability is anywhere from average to fantastic.
The most damning thing that I can find is in the JD Power Rating, and the ratings of "2/5" are for the design angle, where new owners find the controls confusing to use - and that I can agree with a fair amount of that. If I hadn't looked it up in the manual, I'd have NO idea how to get the electric folding mirrors to work, that I could change the color temperature of the interior lighting from "orangish" to "bluish", how to brighten or dim the interior dash light at night, or that there is a second glove box behind the silver trim panel above the "real" glove box!
However, with a read of the manual (available as a PDF from one of the MINI oriented websites with a Google Search), you'll figure that stuff out, and be used to it within a week or so.
It's still ultimately a BMW, and based on my current car I can say that the best thing you can do is to keep current with scheduled maintenance maintenance, and not get into maintenance debt. It's a different mindset from driving, say, a Honda, which will forgive a LOT of years of feeding it only gas, tires, and oil changes.


Good examples can be had for around 20 grand.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Aug 30, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


PurpleandGold, Throatwarbler and Juando290, I just wanted to let you know - I LISTENED TO YOU - and now I need your esteemed opinions.

Juando290 posted:

Kenny Rogers posted:

Lease+Finance chat:
For someone who did some stupid poo poo in the spring 2009 and tanked their credit, at what point (FICO Score) during the repair cycle should a lease become a viable option? My score has so far recovered to the middle third of the 600's (615-654, depending on bureau), and aggressively paying down what little cc debt I have is boosting my score as I go along. Leasing sounds pretty attractive, but I don't think I'm quite there yet - I'm shopping for a second car, and have a pre-approved package in the low 6% range. I figure (probably correctly) that talking to a dealer about leasing is still just going to waste both our times and get me a good chuckle at this point? (Y/n)
Depending on manufacturer, if you can get financed, they will also lease to you. Again, using Honda as an example (since that is the dealer I am based at, though I sell on Chevy, ford, Toyota, Lexus and Subaru lots as well) Honda has three tiers of credit that they will approve for financing. They don't have special requirements for leases. If they can approve you through manufacturer financing, then you will have the option for leasing in the same tier. If you have no collections, you will be fine (people with a 700 score or above qualify for Hondas top tier currently, so you are close to breaking into their second tier right now...)

Also, one last lease bit..if you are thinking about buying a house for any reason, leasing is also good on a car because your debt to income ratio is lower. Like my write up, your debt will not show $20,000 being financed, only $6,000.

purpleandgold posted:

I'm also going to chime in as a supporter of leases. I'm also horribly biased since I sell cars, but we love leases. Especially in the luxury market, leasing is far more popular than purchasing. It's generally a much more cost-effective way of having a nice car.

I'm presently leasing since I like having a luxury car with cutting-edge technology, and that's by far more affordable if I'm not purchasing the car. I could pay $500 a month and be able to walk away from the car completely in three years, or pay $800 a month for five years and be seriously upside-down on the car for much of the time. And really, I love European luxury cars dearly, but I wouldn't want to pay for the maintenance and upkeep after it's out of factory warranty.

Yeah, people do trade cars a lot. It's rare that I get someone who wants to trade in a car that's older than 5 years old and has no payoff; the majority of the used cars I take in are 30-48 months old and still financed. Honestly, if you're going to trade cars more often than every 5-7 years, try leasing. And it's fine, we car salespeople don't mind if you ask us a ton of questions about how leasing works, what's included, and specific penalties for high mileage, excess wear and tear, and so on. Read all the fine print; it's worth it. Leasing isn't all scary and actually sometimes is awesome.
I apologize in advance for the wall of text. Lots of options that I'd like to get a second (dozen) pairs of eyes on.

The GF and I went to our local MINI dealer today, with the intent of talking about leasing vs. buying. Found a MINI Cooper Clubman S with an MSRP of $30,345, which checks out on the Build Your Own MINI site. TrueCar gives 29,799 as the target price. The finance guy said he'd discounted the car pretty substantially (to 26-something IIRC, but that seems WAY low, but maybe they have $2000 in incentives or something. I doubt it's 27 grand, but I won't cry if it is. The GF-unit recalls hearing more like $29,500, which seems more reasonable.)

We spent quite a bit of time with the finance manager, and with the numbers that he ran, he came back with $448/mo for a 3 year lease with 15k/miles per year. Commuting with the M3, I'm did 13,300 last year, so 15k is great.

We applied through Mini's financing, and they turned us down with a 651 FICO. This is probably related to a voluntary repo that I took when my GF and I broke up in 2008, and she moved to Texas. That would have stuck me with $800 worth of car payments, so the Wrangler we bought went back to Toyota Financial, and that took my FICO with it. 4.5 year later, I'm mostly recovered, I think.

We were delivered to the office of Kim, the "Mini Money Mama", who seems to be the person with the relationships with the lenders. We went over my credit report and got the whys and wherefores of what was on it, and why, and she's going to call the lenders tomorrow and see if she can swing something. Pending being able to convince a lender to buy the deal, these look like the available options, and I'd like your opinions on them:
I don't have all the information on all the options yet. If it's missing, there's a big fat IDK there.

OPTION A) 0 Down, 15k miles/year, $448/mo. for 36 months.
$448 first month's payment due up front, which is normal and expected.
Probably a security deposit (A second full month's payment as SD is reasonable, and I should negotiate or walk away if they want more, yes?)
Acquisition fee of probably $700ish.
$348 dealer handling and "additional profit fee" (at least they're up front about it - it doesn't make me begrudge it any less)
So, if I'm figuring that correctly, that's $1944 up front, some of which could potentially be rolled into the lease with a modest increase in the monthly payment.
I don't know what the MF is, I'm calculating the residual at .59 or .60 ($17600 to $17900 ballbark).

OPTION B) Same deal, but trade in my 195,750 mile E36 M3 for ~2500 as cash down. I know that I can get (some) more for it in a private sale, so I'm not inclined to use it as a trade. This is a low risk option that does not maximize the value of an existing asset.
Payment of (N<$448)/mo. for 36 mo. 15,000 miles/year.
The deal would be similar to the last, but the upfront would be my trade-in, which would (in theory?) pay for the security deposit, ACQ, Handling/Profit, 1st month's payment, and have $550 available for Cap Cost Reduction. Am I correct there?

OPTION C) Put $2500 or $3000 down (temporarily) on my lovely high-interest rate credit card. Sell the M3 or my DRZ400 in a private sale. Pay the balance with the proceeds.
It's a more efficient conversion of my existing assets to cash. It's higher risk predicated on neither one selling, but not that much higher risk and I think the likelihood that NEITHER one would sell for $3000ish is fairly low.
This seems like the best option of the three Lease options to me.

Question 1: Given that the quoted payment fits in my budget, and given that I'm sort of a "marginal" customer at the moment - should I really care what the MF is if the rest of the deal suits my sensibilities and I don't feel ripped off?
Question 1a: Is there enough information there to determine if this is a decent deal or not?

OPTION D) This all came about because I found a 2009 Clubman S with 53,400 miles at CarMax in Salt Lake City. It's pretty much perfect for us, so a week and a half ago, I dropped $200 and had them bring it to me. The car is here, and they're waiting for the title to come in before they can actually do the deal. We drove by today, and saw it in the back lot. It's *sharp*
$18,599. I Googled the VIN and got some history on the car. It was the Showroom car for Murray Motors in SLC before the PO bought it. It's got Cold Weather, Premium, Convenience, and Sport packages, and a roof rack with bike carriers (which will probably come off).
0 down, and in the neighborhood of $425/mo. for 60 months.
PRO: No money out of pocket at all.
CON: My main concern with this option is that there's no warranty, and the Prince engine MINIs have a history of a very small, but still non-zero chance for:
* High Pressure Fuel Pump fires (Recall issued), and
* Timing chains (apparently MINI is fixing it under a recall/extended warranty, but the official announcement isn't out yet - it's due in September),
* Clogged turbo oil pipes (replace turbo, do not pass go, do pay to fix. Can be staved off with a good oil change regime, and undoing any existing sludging can apparently be fixed with using an AMSOIL product every 3k for 10k or so)
* Carbon Buildup on the intake valves (Direct injection engines mean there's never any fuel/air mix dissolving it. Walnut shell blasting is the only feasible solution. That's DIY, and a good reason to get an air compressor and a shop vac, but kind of a pain to do every 30k miles...)

* Possible Solution A: CarMax has the MaxCare warranty on offer for $2300, which will carry the car to 120k miles (which is 66600 additional miles and 5.0075 years at my current driving pace), and word on the street (internet) is that it would (and examples exist where it does) cover everything on the list of potential failures - except the carbon buildup.
* Possible Solution B: As above, but skip the warranty, put the $2500 sale-proceeds that I'd otherwise have put into the downpayment in Option (B) into the Car Maintenance Fund, add to it a little bit each month, and also have at least $2500 in credit available in case something REALLY goes tits up on the car in the next 5 years.

I've seen the MaxCare exclusion list, and it's basically everything except "Normal Wear and Tear" (Dings, scratches, windshields), "Consumables" (oil, tires, brake pads/rotors, etc.), and "Things your (Liability + Collision + Comprehensive) Insurance Would Cover" (Collision, Vandalism, Theft, Hit and Run damage, Storm Damage, etc.)

Question 2: If option D looks better than A, B or C then, MaxCare Warranty or Emergency Fund?

I'm currently completely on the fence between the two cars, and each has their pros and cons in my mind.
Lease Pro: My first brand new car. Not sure I'd want to own a MINI for more than 3-5 years. Nice thought to just be able to walk away at the end.
Lease Con: Cash up front, when I'm moving to a new apartment a couple miles away at the end of the month. It's manageable, but not preferred. Mods should be removable.
Own Pro: Sure it's a depreciating asset, but in 5 years, it'll still be an asset with *some* residual value - much like the M3 is today. Unlimited mod potential.
Own Con: Not under warranty. Bad Things could happen, and I *could* be stuck with needing to replace the engine in my daily driver.

We both think that we're good long-term candidates for Leasing. We don't drive that much, and are looking to drive less as time goes on. We're both SO OVER our "beater stage of life", and think we could deal with a lifestyle of, and have the budget for, having a perpetual car payment. We both believe that you only get one go-round in life, that life is too short to drive a car you only tolerate.

Question The Final:
Is one a significantly better fit for my lifestyle?
Is one a significantly better fit for my (still improving) finances?


╣ Selling the bike would allow me to keep the M3, which needs a suspension refresh (a control arm/ball joint definitely, everything else would be optional) and an oxygen sensor. The GF could sell her Yaris S for a bit ($1500ish) more than what she owes on it, and use the proceeds to fund refurbishing the M3, which she likes quite a bit, and knows the history of.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Sep 3, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


quaunaut posted:

I'm a 25 year old web developer. I make $75k gross per year.
I can likely move on to jobs where I'm paid more, but even so, I could never see my income going below $60,000, especially in the next several years.
Am I making a good call? Ask all the questions you need.
Based on the new and interesting information that I've learned over the last couple of weeks about :
A) The Current State of Leasing in the US, (Particularly changes in law regarding Truth in Lending)
B) How long people REALLY keep their cars (hint: I'm pretty sure you didn't buy that Camry new off the lot when you were 8...)

I recommend one of two choices, based on some fairly personal things.

Some variation on: I hate buying cars. They are a depreciating asset. I like working on my cars. I hate having a car payment. I want to own my ride, as I'll be keeping it at least 5 years. - Buy what you can afford for cash right now, then...Do this.
-OR-
Some variation on: Having a car payment doesn't bother me. I like the security of having a warranty. I will purchase different cars based on my needs, my wants, or my income over the course of my life. I am (or will become in the future) a business owner, even if it's a sole proprietorship. - Learn how to negotiate a good lease, and be able to figure out, (based on year/make and model) whether it will be better for you to buy, pay on the car for 3 years, then sell, or to lease for 3 years.

That said, my own story (in the post on this page) is that after researching potential problems that might happen with the 2009 MINI Cooper S Clubman that I found, I went yesterday and talked to MINI of Loveland about leasing, and I'm on my way out the door to go pick up a 2014 Cooper Clubman S with 5 miles on it for within $25/mo. of what I was going to pay for the 2009 car with 53k miles and no warranty.
My gut feeling says that I can Lease the car and have no equity in it after 36 months, or I can buy the car, and have the engine or transmission let go sometime in the next 36-60 months, and STILL have (essentially) no equity in the car.

Ultimately, my GF and I are going to split-test the two methodologies for the next 3 years. We're going to have one car that we paid cash for (and we will pay our savings a car payment each month) and one car that we've leased.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 3, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Engineer Lenk posted:

I would not pay early on a 0% loan.
Also this.
With a non-zero-percent loan, paying extra on the principal saves you interest payments over the life of the loan. Since there are no interest payments on a 0% loan, paying early is financially exactly the same as paying on schedule.

SO
You could pay an extra $100 on the loan, and get basically nothing for it, since you're effectively paying cash for the car╣
or
you could put that same $100 into a savings or investment account with a return between 0.6% and 6% on it, and end up with $6,0000 to $7000 in the bank at the end of 5 years.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


purpleandgold posted:

Read your most recent post. I agree with the go with a 2014, lease, enjoy the factory maintenance and warranty, and just upgrade when your lease is out. If the money works for you and yes, MINI do retain their value that well- go for it. They're fun little cars!
Thanks!
That's exactly what we did!
With my 'recovering' credit situation, I paid (much) more out of pocket than I'd initially expected, but it wound up being a "bad news/good news" situation.
The bad news is that they needed $3280 up front to make the deal happen.
The bad news is that the $3280 contained no Cap Cost Reduction, so the payment is about $30 more than I'd initially budgeted.
The good news is that 100% of the "at signing" money, less the first payment, is a Security Deposit - which we'll get back, less $350 disposition fee, at the end of the lease.
The good news is that I rebalanced the budget by deducting $30 from "dining out" each month.

I think I did OK, thanks to this thread.

2014 Mini Clubman S - 6 miles (Lease)
code:
$29,345 value of vehicle ($1000 off MSRP, and less than TrueCar said was the Target Price)
$ 925 Acquisition fee 
$30,666 Gross Capitalized Cost
$12,459 Depreciation
$18,207 Residual Value (0.60 rate - research showed that Minis go from 0.58 to 0.61 depending on month, so that seems OK)
$ 3,519 Rent (interest) charge.
$   479 Lease Payment & tax x 35
$17,115 net
vs.

2009 Mini Clubman S - 53,400 miles (Purchase)
code:
$18,699 value of vehicle + 
$ 2,400 MaxCare Warranty to 120k miles +
$ 1,600 Tax = 
$22,699 Gross Capitalized Cost
$   472 Loan Payment x 60
$11,600 estimated depreciation
$28,320 total of payments
$-7,000 estimated return from sale of 120k mile car, based on current 120k mile 2002/2003 Cooper S sale values
$21,320 net
And, yes, MrKatharsis, you are correct. Emotion did weigh more than a little in this decision. I'll grant you that.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Sep 9, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Engineer Lenk posted:

It seems like you're comparing a 3-year term on the lease to a roughly 6-year turn-around time on buying the 2009 (full 60 months of payments, comparing to 2002/2003 for car value). If you want apples to apples, price out what the owned car would be worth at the end of 3 years if you were to sell it or trade it in.
Fair enough. I was comparing planned disposition vs. planned disposition, but apples to apples is worth looking at.

2009 Mini Clubman S - 53,400 miles (Purchase, trade in on something else, or outright sell after 36 months, rather than carrying to full payoff)
code:
$18,699 value of vehicle + 
$ 2,400 MaxCare Warranty to 120k miles (transferable, under some conditons)
$ 1,600 Tax = 
$22,699 Gross Capitalized Cost
$   472 Loan Payment ($28,337 original total of 60 payments)
$16,992 36 payments made, ~40,000 miles driven.
$10,328 remaining loan balance in September, 2016.
$ 8,400 estimated KBB return from sale of ~95k mile car, projected from current 2006 Cooper S sale values.
OR
$ 7,400 estimated (KBB/Edmunds Clean Trade-in Averaged) Trade-in value, also projected from current 2006 Cooper S sale values.
It appears that I'd likely be $1900-$2900 in the hole after 36 months, whereas at this point I'm expecting somewhere around $2,450 in Security deposit to come back at the end of the lease, tipping the balance in favor of the lease closer to $5000, if I'm comparing those two things properly?

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Sep 10, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Engineer Lenk posted:

You never included the 2450 in the cost of the lease, so don't double-count it. Also, a true equivalence test would have you put the same amount out of pocket upfront, which tips it mathematically in favor of the used car slightly.
How does it analyze on balance if:
$2400 MaxCare Warranty was out of pocket (presuming that the extra $2400 would put the deal over 110% LTV) instead of amortized.
vs.
$2800 Security Deposit down, $2450 returned at the end of the lease (deducting $350 disposition fee from the balance at the end).

I pondered it myself, but got all turned around just now.
Gross Cap Cost is less, meaning the Balance Owed is less, but the payments are smaller, so I think I'm at roughly the same risk for being upside down after 36 months either way?

e: More math
code:
$18,699 value of vehicle + 
$ 1402 Tax = 
$20,101 Gross Capitalized Cost
$   418 Loan Payment ($25,080 original total of 60 payments)
$15,050 36 payments made, ~40,000 miles driven.
$ 9,145 remaining loan balance in September, 2016.
$ 8,400 estimated KBB return from sale of ~95k mile car, projected from current 2006 Cooper S sale values.
OR
$ 7,400 estimated (KBB/Edmunds Clean Trade-in Averaged) Trade-in value, also projected from current 2006 Cooper S sale values.
Purchase: No Warranty
Net: -$745 to -$1745

With $2400 Warranty out of pocket up front:
net: -$3145 to $-4145, trending toward zero if the warranty covers repairs during the warranty period.

Even if I'm not getting all the answers lined up properly on the first go-round, this is good exercise for my brain - thanks for that!

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Sep 10, 2013

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Engineer Lenk posted:

If the payments are smaller that should factor into it as the tradeoff you make for possibly being upside-down, since you could always pay the same amount and speed your payoff.
With no warranty comfort zone, any difference between the two payments ($54) would go into the Car Emergency Maintenance Fund.
If I didn't have anything serious go wrong in those three years, and used that to pay off any upside-down, then I come out up $200-1200 by purchasing, no warranty.
I come out -$1200-2200 if I use the extra $54/mo to pay down the loan, but buy the warranty cash up front.

Looks like drilling down into this more than Exxon shows that - in my case, at least, it's mostly a wash, with a very very slight bias against purchasing, because purchasing a warranty to reduce the risk of having to pay many thousands of dollars in repairs on a major component is also the very thing that sort of poisons the deal, and makes it a net loss.

Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


Weinertron posted:

A V6 Mustang in some crazy color might also fit your bill and be less expensive. Also smaller on the inside, a bit less comfortable, but much more on the sporty and fun scale.
We were sorely tempted by a couple used 2013 v6 Mustang convertibles in Grabber Blue, which is possibly the craziest of colors without crossing into the land of 'Ugh, really?'.
http://goo.gl/jWV4zx

The need to carry the 107 pound dog around won that argument, though.

Xguard86 posted:

"Tangerine Scream"
Tangerine Scream is the GoTo color for those cars, though.
Seriously, last month there were two in Colorado, Utah and New Mexico that weren't Tangerine Scream, and they were Tuxedo Black.

To find a Focus ST in Oxford White (to match our M3), we'd have had to go to St. Louis, and the next closest white one was near Huntington Beach, CA.

It's a crazy world we live in where White is the "crazy" color!

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Sep 11, 2013

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Kenny Rogers
Sep 7, 2007

Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffff!

The dealership called yesterday, and said that they screwed up the paperwork (n.b. I have history with this sort of thing, so I may be unreasonably leery here - Freeway Ford in Denver pulled the old "your financing fell through - We need $500, and for you to sign these new papers or bring the car back" deal when I bought the Vibe in 2004. That sucked rear end. After our repeat lovely treatment at O'Meara Ford recently, gently caress FoMoCo forever.)

What the finance lady (Kim "The Money Mama" Katellaper) said when she called is that they failed to take into account that my municipality (Northglenn, CO) requires the sales tax to be paid up front, and they're going to eat that $560, but it required them to rework the numbers so that they could make the deal without having to ask for any more money from me up front.

I got the FedEx package this afternoon, and here are the old and new terms in a Google Doc.

It looks kosher to my eyes, I think? I'm very hesitant to believe that they're eating a single dollar, only cleverly hiding it someplace - Probably the depreciation vs. residual vs. rent charge section, but there's clearly $105 back into their pocket padded into the "new and improved" Line Item 11...

It looks like they've increased the base payments by $614.88, but have decreased the taxes over the life of the lease by 614.16.
The only thing that makes me a little nervous is having the extra money in the "Due at Signing" section, without having actually paid that OR having something notarized on letterhead stating that Mini of Loveland is, in fact, eating that cost...so it doesn't come back and bite me later in any way. Is that reasonable?
Am I missing something obvious here?
Is it essentially the same deal with money shifted around a little? Should I sign and FedEx it back?
Is it radically not in my favor now? Should I drive the car back to them and tell them "Here's my drat $50/day and $.50/mile. Cancel the contract and go screw yourselves." and consider it a $750 lesson?

After all the back and forth dissecting the deal, I'm super annoyed by this.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Sep 13, 2013

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