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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Don't pay too much attention to that stuff. The Prius NiMH battery was like eight grand or so on launch from Toyota and obviously it's a lot cheaper now since there are cores for remanufacturing. The HV battery warranty on a new Prius Prime is 10/150. By the time you have a non-warranty failure in the Prime, I guarantee you there will be a cheaper alternative. I'm seeing used HV Prime batteries on various salvage sites for under two thousand bucks, so I imagine the reconditioned market is probably twice that or so right now.

The TCO question is entirely dependent on how much you will be able to drive the car in EV mode but it's pretty unlikely that the Prime is going to save you money,

EPA claims that pure EV is $0.81/25mi vs using gas is $1.33/25 mi. If you drive 250,000 miles all EV vs all gas, that's $5,000 savings over the Prius - but you won't do 100% of your driving as an EV. If you do half of it in EV mode (which still seems like a high side prediction to me) you'll save $2,500. But - OP doesn't drive that much, and has done 93,000 miles in thirteen years. So, half of that in EV mode means a cost savings of $1,860 over that 13 years, or up to $3,720 if you do all the driving in EV mode. Not sure what the purchase premium is on the Pirus Prime but I bet it's only even close to a break-even proposition if you spend almost all of your time driving in EV mode.

The overall TCO should be roughly the same outside of operating costs and purchase costs. It's the same basic car. Yes, the HV battery is probably a bit more expensive but that's unlikely to be very important in the overall TCO - because it is likely to get less expensive, and it's quite unlikely that it will fail.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




the tingler posted:

I can't remember, but why do you use that methodology instead of mpg? If I have 133mpg in EV mode vs 55mpg in hybrid, that's a much bigger difference over time than with the EPA's estimated fuel costs, especially if you drive under 25 miles with a full charge.

edit: sorry if I'm going too far down this tangent, but this is assuming that the PHEV uses gas at all in the first 25 miles under a full charge, and I haven't found a conclusive answer as to whether it's entirely electric or uses some combo.

The Prius Prime doesn't use gas for the first 25 miles, at least in the EPA test.

Whenever you get in to PHEVs and EVs, the EPA does not provide MPG, because it doesn't make sense. MPGe is the distance traveled under the equivalent energy consumption of a gallon of gasoline, so basically distance/33.7 kWh of energy consumed. What it means in this case is that for the first ~25 mi of the journey, the car is consuming electricity at a rate of 0.25 kWh/mi (6.25 kWh/25 miles), and after that it consumes gas at the rate of 0.61 kWh/mi (15.25 kWh/25 miles).

Great, under EV power the Prius is a lot more energy efficient, that's good. However, you haven't yet accounted for fuel cost differences, and what you actually care about is cost. EPA by default uses $0.13/kWh and $2.87/gal gas, so for the EPA's purposes electricity is actually more expensive than gas per kWh - $0.13 vs $0.09. Granted, this probably isn't a fully realistic picture as most people set their EVs to charge at home under offpeak rates, which makes a huge difference. Offpeak rates in my area are like 35% of peak rates including distribution charges, so that changes the calculation significantly and makes electricity cheaper than gas per kWh. If you have access to free charging at work or something like that, it also helps. But fundamentally, a PHEV or EV at this point is basically a lifestyle choice. It's not a financially prudent choice. Even if the Prius Prime were free to power, it takes 71,000 miles at $2.87/gal for the Prius Prime to break even with the ordinary Prius at its $3,700 price premium, and that's assuming time value of money is fake, which it very much is not. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying a PHEV necessarily, I just think it's important that unless almost all your trips are within EV range and you are charging offpeak, the financials are not in favor of the PHEV. And if that's your use case, you're far better off from both an environment and cost perspective buying a used Nissan Leaf and renting a car for occasional long trips.

Side note on MPG: MPG in general is a lovely metric because it's nonlinear. Each unit increase in MPG is less of a reduction in marginal energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by 10 mpg going from 10 to 20 halves your energy consumption. Improving your fuel economy by another 10 mpg reduces your energy consumption by a third. Using kWh/100 mi or liters/100km or gal/100 mi is much better; kWh/distance metrics are obviously superior because they doesn't care about fuel type. If you ignore MPGe forever and just look at cost/25 (or better yet put your localized energy costs in to fueleconomy.gov) or kWh/100 on the Monroney you will have a much better understanding of efficiency and energy costs

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Good point and one that I should have included!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Anecdotal evidence but my mom's Crosstrek CVT has been substantially more reliable than her Forster and Legacy 4EATs. CVTs are probably fine in low power applications as long as they aren't Nissan and you don't abuse them or tow with em. The early ones are like ten years old now and I think results have been pretty acceptable. It's chain based rather than belt based, so in theory should hold up a lot better than the old Audi and Nissan/JATCO boxes (not that it takes much).

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




ah yes Audi known reliability paragons

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




nm posted:

The Audi AWD system, particularly the torsen one, is reliable as hell. It isn't the AWD's system fault they built a VW around it.

I know the Torsen system is pretty reliable, it's just funny when you couch it as "it's the most reliable part of the [extremely, absurdly unreliable] car!"

edit: older Subaru diffs were pretty prone to issues but I think that's mostly gone away.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




KillHour posted:

Two heads, which means twice as many top end things to theoretically go wrong. Also, I hear they're a PITA to work on and most shops probably don't have a ton of experience with them because the only manufacturers who still use them are Subaru and Porsche.


maybe it's because for most of my life I lived in New England where Subarus are incredibly common but I've never heard anyone complaining about availability of shops to work on Subarus.

Some things are harder than I4s, some things are easier.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




nm posted:

In CA, you can find a bunch of shops that will work on subarus but a lot fewer that should, particularly high ticket jobs like the inevitable engine or transmission rebuild.

this is true of pretty much every brand once you get in to that scope of repair

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




The Oldest Man posted:

My mom also has one of these and a couple years ago I had to drive it about 4 hours across a mountain pass for reasons and it was one of the most unpleasant driving experiences of my entire life. The thing is hideously uncomfortable, unstable in corners, has a bad driving position, has poor rear corner visibility despite feeling like you're sitting on a bar stool, the transmission sucks, and you have to floor it to keep up with traffic going up grades. At the top of the pass I had to keep my foot on the floor to keep up with traffic on a nearly level stretch and it just felt like it was choking to death.

Also it's had no fewer than 3 major mechanical issues requiring a tow in as many years.

It's a piece of poo poo and is one of the few new cars I'd unequivocally tell people not to buy under any circumstances.

I assume this was out west and at altitude because of the pass references, and I cannot imagine how gutless that little NA 2.0 is at altitude.

I think it corners OK. There's a good amount of roll but it'll keep a line that you set it on pretty well. Otherwise I generally agree. It's an OK way to get AWD as cheap as possible but beyond that I don't understand the appeal.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Prius AWD is going to be mostly useful for getting unstuck, going up a slippery hill, or driving on a road that is somewhat managed in a snowstorm like an interstate or major highway. Due to ground clearance you'll run in to the snowplowing problem relatively quick (where your bumper acts as a snowplow and builds up a nice big pile of snow) and basically no amount of power and traction will solve that issue.

My general opinion is that if you really need AWD for poor weather traction you are relatively likely to need more ground clearance as well. AWD for high power applications, that's a different story.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




if you're buying a taco you might as well buy new

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




It's definitely possible to have a long enough and steep enough driveway that tires alone won't cut it. Growing up, I had a long driveway that had a very sharp right hand bend (maybe 70-80 deg?) immediately going in to a steep uphill. A few days each winter it would be possible to make it around and up in the Legacy or Forester with AWD and winter tires, but not the Accord or Maxima with winter tires.

But yes, if you don't have winter tires, winter tires is the first step. If that still isn't enough because you have a true sumbitch of a driveway, really any of the Forester / CR-V / RAV4 / CX-5 are good.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




someone never lived in a rural area, I see

plus, nobody's recommending AWD up front

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




KillHour posted:

I sometimes miss terrible abusive situations too. It's why I'm into cars.

100%

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Number_6 posted:

It seems like manufacturers have gotten somewhat better at managing production & inventory so they don't have to put monster rebates on the hood of every unsold car at the end of the model year. Throw Covid-19 and semiconductor shortages on top of that and it seems like a seller's market now.

the first part is absolutely not true. perhaps marginally but end of model year or take delivery from inventory aged over X is still extremely common.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Prius V checks none of your boxes except reliability and fuel economy. If your baseline performance level is FiST you will want to die every time you drive it.
Various Subarus are mostly slow, but generally fit the bill. CVT not ideal.
Mazda5s are all old and busted at this point.
I'm biased but I really like our slightly lifted Sportwagen with an APR tune. I came from a FoST and it's a bit less fun to drive hard, but much better built, much more practical, nearly as fast, and rides way more nicely. 200k miles might be a stretch but it's been reliable for the first two years of ownership

You could get a bigger hatchback like a FoST or GTI or Mazda3 or Civic Sport, that might meet your needs before you go full on wagon/crossover. There's also the Hyundai Elantra GT or Kia Rio 5. They are pretty decent and relatively cheaper. At least the Elantra was available with 200hp so that could be an OK compromise. After that, it's CUV time.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




That wasn't really clear from your post when you described your FiST as your baseline performance

Prius V is too slow for my tastes but is probably fine if you test drive it and can tolerate it. You also have to find one, they're not common. I would check out the old Mazda3 hatch and the Elantra GT as well as the Sportwagen/Alltrack. The Civic hatch is kind of a goofy shape but worth checking out. Fine for long space, not so good for height due to the hatch rake.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




I don't think it's a good idea to go in to debt for a 15 year old Mazdaspeed product, no.

edit: that you rely on to get to work/school/wherever

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




nwin posted:

I donít live with much snow now, but I could get transferred somewhere with snow. How does RWD do in the snow with snow tires?

it will be perfectly fine unless for some reason you would get transferred to like, Niseko or the Donner Pass

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




you can actually still do pretty much fine for $5k imo

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




the fears around weather are probably entirely irrational - maybe not the fears themselves, but the idea that a different car will make a difference if it's weather you should actually be scared of is very irrational. you should keep your current car because if you are in a flash flood that will wash away your E91 it would also wash away [insert "not mom crossover" of choice here]. what exactly do you think 2" of ground clearance are going to accomplish in this situation?

To me you're considering trading a known good quantity for the hellish uncertainty that is the $4K used car market. I would never do this. The only way that I would remotely consider doing this is if the leg injury truly made the E91 non viable or if you have some serious dirt/offroad use case that you somehow didn't articulate well. It sounds like you have some ideas and concepts about what you might like to do but they're all over the map - I like old BOF SUVs, I want to hike, I could add a tow hitch, etc. When spending $4K you have to get really precise about what matters and doesn't matter to you because you cannot have it all. It sounds like you're interested in the concept and aesthetics of old BOF SUVs rather than anything else. My buddy bought a tolerably well sorted Trooper in that price range. It has a weak parking brake so he carries chocks. It has an O2 sensor problem that makes it run rich. These are solvable but take time effort and money and are exactly what you will constantly be dealing with if you buy a 20 year old BOF SUV.

Lastly, IF it's stick, your E91 in good condition is worth a fair amount of money (like, a lot more than $4K). Something to consider - you could probably buy a lot more SUV with your money and that gets you out of the 4k range.

AveMachina posted:

I'm fond of mechanically/electrically simple cars with ample aftermarket support

E91 owner ~only want what you can't have~

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 30, 2021

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




the secret bonus on all those old BOF SUVs is dying or being horribly injured when you are in a collision

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




I think you may have gotten a strong reaction in part because a "mom crossover" sounds fairly well suited to your use case and this tends to be a very utilitarian thread

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




are you getting the seats with the carbon fiber codpiece or not

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




KillHour posted:

I am not.

in that case no as the exterior carbon fiber will only betray your poser nature the minute someone gets in their car

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




KillHour posted:

I have a body like a goon and I don't want to gamble on if I fit.

just cut to make weight to fit in the seats

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




good news: everything in your segment is going to get perfectly fine fuel economy, and buying a PHEV or a hybrid is probably worse for the environment based on the amount you're driving it. So get a regular gas CUV of choice, be fruitful, and multiply. Get a CX-5 though because Mazda is a nice company that needs money.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Chad Sexington posted:

I figured a plug-in wasn't going to be worth it, but is there some sort of calculator or summat that shows where a hybrid actually has gains relative to a regular car? Does it matter if my 10 mile commute still takes 30-40 minutes because of Beltway hell traffic? I'm trying not to do the dumb lib thing of measuring my personal virtue in terms of carbon emissions, but it's kind of hard not to.

FWIW I looked at the CX-5 too after reading previous pages ITT and the trim and features do seem pretty nice relative to the cost. I'll throw it in Costco Auto and see what kind of deal I can get there too. One dealer had the RAV4 Hybrid XLE Premium for $31,000 which isn't half bad.

hello it is me im your personal Hybrid Gainz calculator.

You plan to drive roughly 7,500 miles a year (1.5x your daily commute mileage). Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that it's entirely city driving. It's not, but this is the maximum savings and positive ecological impact between buying a hybrid and a gas engine vehicle.

If you buy [X], you will consume [Y[ gallons of gas, costing [Z] dollars and outputting [N] pounds of direct CO2 emissions per year
Toyota RAV4 Hybrid: 183, $550, 3600 lbs
Toyota RAV4 AWD: 277, $833, 5492 lbs
Mazda CX-5 AWD: 313, $937, 6135 lbs.

For approximate lifetime figures you can multiply by 20. So, lifetime cost savings for the RAV4 hybrid in an absolutely optimal situation vs its non-hybrid brother or what I think is the best in class vehicle are about $5-6,000. The purchase premium around $2200 right now so it will pay off in just under ten years if you ignore time value of money, and of course assuming relatively constant gas prices, and constant behavior and life situation.

The best possible ecological choice is not to drive. The second best is to buy a used car. If you really care about your personal carbon footprint or impact, don't buy a new car.

edit: some environmental analysis was wrong because I used the RAV4 prime battery pack (I did think it was awfully big).

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 01:17 on May 6, 2021

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




LionArcher posted:

Iím loosely in the car shopping stage. Thereís a 2008 Toyota Avalon with 137k miles for 8 grand at a lot. I like the look, and know these are basically nicer inside camrys. Is that priced too high for the mileage? Any big pain points I should know about? Iíd take it to a mechanic before Iíd buy, just curious on threads thoughts.

The Avalon will probably make 200k without too much difficulty but seems overpriced by about $1,000.

nwin posted:

and it has a couple driving modes (eco/sport)

I'm pretty sure all cars in the segment have driving modes and they're all equally pointless.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




Chad Sexington posted:

Thank you thread for all the advice! This has been super helpful. I still have a pretty good amount of time on both the commuting to work and baby-conceiving fronts, so I'll definitely be doing test drives before I commit to anything. The chip shortages are what made me want to start researching, but at least so far there doesn't seem to be much of a problem with inventory, at least where I'm looking.

I am very conscious of the fact that you are both probably right in the long term, but we're only just going through IVF stuff now and buying a minivan or an SUV with three rows seems waaaaay premature. If we make it as far as two kids maybe we'd punt the Kia for a minivan, but that's down the road for now.

Chip shortages are unlikely to have a major effect on customer-perceived inventory, but they will definitely have an effect on pricing. Now is a pretty bad time to buy a new car, but hey, at least it's unlikely to get any better for like six months to a year.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




KillHour posted:

I wasn't even responding to you, dude. I was agreeing with/continuing the joke of the post above mine. The "why doesn't everyone make a manual brown wagon that has good driving dynamics and costs no money and runs on unicorn farts" has been an AI meme since forever. The reality is the ones that do exist cost ridiculous amounts of money because nobody wanted them when they were new and now that they're extinct, rich nerds fight over who gets to fart in the seats of the few that are left running. You can't find one because everyone bought SUVs 5-10 years ago new instead of spending 50 grand on what internet forums posters said they wanted, and that's what I was making fun of. I say this as someone who has a manual hatchback in the driveway.

Edit: and that still isn't even responding to your question, it's explaining the joke I made completely independent of your question. The answer to your question is get the newest thing you can find in the best condition within your budget because you're not going to find a manual fun car for that money.

OP's best choice is to drive the stick Mazda3 they currently own until it does and then buy another stick Mazda3

i am also a manual wagon owner and i even bought it new as the last manual wagon that would ever be sold in the USA

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Hey, need a recommendation on a minivan/suv no more than 25k that will be good in a cross-country roadtrip with two adults a baby and a dog, and hauling lumber on a semi-regular basis. We will be trading in our beloved prius for it.

Hybrid if possible.

it sounds like you are buying a car for edge case stuff which is always a terrible and expensive idea. my recommendation would be if you are regularly hauling lumber to get an old cargo van or domestic pickup and keep the prius. my recommendation if you are going to go on a cross country road trip is to hit up the boys at Enterprise.

but if you absolutely must have, I think you might be able to snag a used Pacific PHEV for that price.

M. Night Skymall posted:

What aspects are most important to you? I want 3rd row seating and captain's chairs in the 2nd row. The captain's chairs are kind of non-negotiable since we're getting a 3 row SUV/mini-van for my parents' comfort, and so they're going to help us buy it. I go climbing outside a reasonable amount, so the ability to manage more vigorous offroading than a groomed dirt road would be nice, like CR-V levels of offroading capability are probably enough. My forte was once thwarted by a moderate slope and a wet rock and then scraped going over a cattle guard, so better than that.

congratulations, future domestic BOF SUV owner. yes a telluride is better in a a variety of ways but you can buy a whole lot of Trailblazer/suburban/yukon/tahoe/expedition for 30 grand. that will get over the trails you want to get over and will be perfectly comfortable and reliable.

your other idea is decent, though I'd replace the 4runner idea with something without a horrible toyota tax.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




If you're doing sub 8k miles a year a lot of that fuel cost concern is relatively minor. A Suburban 1500 4x4 is gonna get like 17 combined and an Odyssey is going to get 22 or 23. It's like $3-400/year, not nothing but definitely cheaper than tags on a third car.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




IOwnCalculus posted:

I must have missed the low annual miles, and Suburbans still fall into the "very low teens" MPG category in my mind.

Minivans are shockingly bad on gas. Big vehicles are thirsty.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




nm posted:

Compared to what?
A honda Odyssey gets 19/28, which isn't amazing, but what is the comparable?
You could argue the pilot is (20/27) but no one who's sat in the back of both thinks they're comparable. You don't really get anything comparable until you hit BOF vehicles which struggle to get over 20mph on the highway.

people THINK that they're significantly more efficient than similar CUVs for some reason but they're not, that's all I'm saying

the capability is nice but it's not free

Nitrox posted:

A plug in hybrid Chrysler Pacifica will drive something like 30 miles on electric alone, which is how they routinely show 50+ mpg on fuelly. The instant torque is also nice

https://www.fuelly.com/car/chrysler/pacifica/2018/chrissbu/612015

a unicorn PHEV that nobody buys is obviously a somewhat different case, and I say this as a Pacifica defender

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




FLIPADELPHIA posted:

Are Volkswagen Atlases as bad on reliability as the internet is suggesting?

If so, are there any mid to large size SUVs that have markedly better reliability?

Thanks thread.

highlander, sequoia, pilot, the GM BOF things are decent

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




he absolutely could do that, the question is why he hasn't done that yet and the answer is at best he's lazy/negligent

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




your credit score isn't gonna change that much

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




I think your logic is sound. Rental car costs aren't that high but the pain in the rear end factor is probably worth hitting up Carvana.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




the OP is repatriating to the US. they have more important concerns than saving a small amount of money on their used car. i would agree with you in normal circumstances but these are not normal circumstances.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




a cadillac converter would be pretty rad, so i can see why people want to steal them

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