AI meets BFC: Car Buying Thread: No Rentals and No Salvage Titles

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > AI meets BFC: Car Buying Thread: No Rentals and No Salvage Titles

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diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Proposed Budget: Looking for around 14k, but can be convinced to go up to 25k if there's some sort of sweet spot for used cars. Anything more than that would require convincing
New or Used: Used.
Body Style: 4d preferred, but really anything doesn't either scream "officer, please pull me over"/"please key my car" or drive like a boat is fine
How will you be using the car?: Mainly 2 mile commute to/from work when it's too ugly out to walk. Occasional 300 mile trip from state to state. Occasional drive into Boston (narrow streets, gridlock traffic, tight parallel parking spaces). Ability to handle the occasional pothole (highways and side streets)
What aspects are most important to you? Reliability, comfort, ability to handle bad weather conditions (especially icy/snowy slushy roads), good turning radius (critical for Boston), and nimble (we have a lot of bad drivers in Boston)
Nice to haves would be AWD, Heated Leather Seats, automatic transmission (see gridlock traffic above), and some sort of Sunroof/MoonRoof

Not sure if it matters, but the car will get dinged up when I park it in public lots. People just don't care what happens to unattended cars.

edit: I plan on taking a 3rd generation forester out for a test drive, though it seems a bit pricey

diadem fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jun 3, 2015

# ¿ Jun 3, 2015 13:08

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 18:24

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Dave Ramsey posted:

A car lease is basically renting a car. You pay $400 a month and at the end of the new car lease, you turn it back in. If you want to buy it, you are buying it for what they estimate at the beginning of the lease to be the market value. At the end of the lease, it�s called the residual value. If you pay $400 a month for 60 months, you pay $24,000 before turning it in. The car will not have gone down in value more than that, because the car companies would lose money if it did. When they get the car back, you will have paid them more than the car has depreciated during that time.

During that time, you�re maintaining the car as if you owned it. You�ll get charged for excessive wear and tear, or if you put too many miles on it. If you rent it for $24,000 and it went down $15,000 in value, then it cost me $9,000 to rent this car for this period of time. That is their profit during that time.

Another thing is that the interest rates on a vehicle lease are not disclosed because the Federal Trade Commission has determined that this is not a debt, so there is no federal disclosure involved. Therefore, you have no truth in lending disclosure sheet. The interest rates you get charged are unbelievably high. That�s where you�ll realize you got screwed over.

People get sold automobile leases because they are told that it�s what sophisticated people do. But as it turns out, the car companies make more money on leasing you the car than if you bought the car with cash, according to the National Auto Dealers Association. Broke people think �how much down and how much a month�. Rich people think �how much�. If you can�t pay cash for a car, then ride a bicycle. But don�t lease a car.

I had my '99 accord for quite some time (until it was totaled by an SUV driving in the breakdown lane during gridlocked traffic). Now I figure it'd be nice to see what it's like to have a "nice" car. I test drove a bunch of cars and am seriously considering leasing a 2 series. While I've been biased against bimmers, the car and drive review made me give it a chance and I really liked the car. The idea is to lease the car while it's fully under warranty and get another car in maybe 3 years or so. If I change my mind, it'd be nice to have the option to buy it.

On the face value, it looks like if I lease the car it'll be paying $15564* on $14467 over 3 years. Essentially I'd be paying 432/month for $14467, which is ~4.8% interest on the $14467. Another way to look at it is that I'd be paying $2k** extra to rent a car I have the option of buying should I feel like keeping but won't have to worry about the hassle of trade in later if I don't.

Am I missing something obvious here? (Aside from the whole "buying a new car is expensive and you should just get a used Infinity M35/M37 if you want a sporty luxury car" thing, which is valid).

*36 x 349 + 3000
**$500 bonus cash at the beginning, but $350 fee at the end, so I'd say that's a wash, with $1k of interest and $1k of crappy fees

edit: I can't get a used 228i because they are too new, and probably would be pensive of getting it used if I could for fear of the previous driver racing it.

diadem fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jul 8, 2015

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 13:59

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

In my opinion, you should get a non-xDrive 2 series and not an auto because what the gently caress is the point of an AWD small sports coupe?

But a few things. You're missing your obvious financing cost of the vehicle if you were to buy it outright, so your premium over the cost of ownership is not as high as you are stating (edit: unless you are planning to pay cash outright). Putting money down on a lease is a bad idea, since that money goes away in the event that you total the vehicle and time value of money and that. It is preferable in all cases to attempt to structure the lease as a zero-money-down lease at $432/mo rather than a $3k down lease at $349/mo. Since you are getting bonus cash, use that as your money down.

At least when I had a lease from BMW, they included the explicit money factor they were using on the lease. Also, my dealer absorbed the $350 fee because they claimed that I had a car that they specifically wanted as a CPO - 128i 6MT sport pack, roof, heated seats as only options in a nice color.

The xDrive bit was so I don't have to get a used Subaru for the winter. I live in the Boston area.

The $432/month advice in lieu of a down payment is great. Thanks!

diadem fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Jul 8, 2015

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 14:29

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

I live in Boston, too. I drove a RWD 1 series for years. Snow tires. With xDrive, you're paying $1,800 more to have a shittier car, and it will be on performance run-flats, so your snow performance will suck anyway.

Did the RWD 2 series drive reasonably with snow tires on it during our winter from hell? If there's no need for xDrive, what are this thread's thoughts on using something like Lease Trader?

# ¿ Jul 13, 2015 23:58

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Anything on snow tires is going to drive better than anything with AWD and not-snow tires.

Right, I was planning on getting AWD and snow tires (I thought getting snow tires in the winter was assumed). What surprised me is that a small car with RWD performed well in the snow, even with snow
tires.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

You realize that the enticing 499/mo lease payment includes the cash incentive, right?

Yes, though tanks for making sure I wasn't making foolish assumptions - it's why I asked for feedback in the first place. Any red flags I should be aware of with lease trader (aside from what they clearly state - such as paying BMW to transfer, insisting on a mechanic, having a lawyer look over the lease, and needing to pay for shipping)?

diadem fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 14, 2015

# ¿ Jul 14, 2015 04:01

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Dramatika posted:

Are Chryslers still godawful deathtrap unreliable pieces of poo poo? Part of me sees the 200c and says "That's nice and stylish and the interior looks pretty awesome and I could almost see myself in one" and another part says "CHRYSLER LOL"

Holy poo poo yes! I've been driving rentals for the last month or so and I can easily say that the modern Chrysler 200 is one of the worst cars I've driven in my life. Check out the car and driver review on this thing. They do a good job of tearing that car apart.

THAT SAID - it isn't a bad idea to take a 200 for a test drive. Its exaggerated weaknesses will let you understand what not to take for granted in a car.

Edit/Safety Disclaimer: Be aware that when you test drive it the blind spots are a bit more extreme than a normal car, so be more vigilant than you are used to. On a similar note, be pensive about trusting the backup camera. It's not as honest as backup cameras in other cars.

Edit2: Yes - UConnect is actually pretty nice, but don't let that distract you from the issues plaguing the rest of the car. Also be warned that my Galaxy S6 has been constantly freezing ever since I paired with UConnect.

diadem fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Jul 14, 2015

# ¿ Jul 14, 2015 12:20

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Auron posted:

My rental 200 had less than 100 miles on it.

My 200 rental had 325 miles on it

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 15:00

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Thinking of picking this up tomorrow. Any red flags before I pull the trigger? Would it be unreasonable to ask for my mechanic to take a look on a certified pre-owned car?

edit: I'd be driving it in Boston winters with snow tiers

diadem fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Jul 15, 2015

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 23:36

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Naive question - if I ever change my mind about a car I buy, is it normally easy to to trade the car in for the KBB "dealer trade in" value?

# ¿ Jul 16, 2015 13:28

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Buying a car tomorrow - the dealer said "absolutely not" when I asked him to fax the paperwork over before I sign it, mainly so legal could look at it to make sure there was no red flags. Was this an unreasonable request? We negotiated on him giving me the paperwork at the dealership then letting me fax it over to legal once I get there.

The dealer seemed very taken aback that I wanted a lawyer to look over the paperwork before I signed it, even after I explained that I always have someone look over the paperwork before I sign it.

What's the rationale of the dealer not wanting me to see the paperwork before I get there? I mean I put down the down payment for the car, waited days for it to get shipped here....

diadem fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 22, 2015

# ¿ Jul 22, 2015 02:27

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Internet Explorer posted:

Find a new dealer that will let you see the paperwork beforehand. "Absolutely not" is such a bullshit response to pretty much any request as a customer...

What about the 1k deposit?

# ¿ Jul 22, 2015 02:35

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Internet Explorer posted:

I didn't see any mention of a 1k deposit. What are you putting a deposit on exactly? A down payment, or a deposit on the car itself? If it's a deposit on the car itself, run away screaming, unless they are ordering you something new and super obscure. Even then I'm not sure I'd pay anything.

He needed to get the car from another dealership. BMW M228i x drive with Tech Package, Premium, Lighting, Tech MSRP $47,150. He needed a $1k deposit to get it from the other dealership. "2015 228x drive coupe Mineral White/Black leather Cold Weather M Sport Package Drivers Assistance Lighting Package Premium Package Technology Package Brushed Aluminum Trim Lease for $2500 due at start $540 per month includes sales tax"

For clarity the 2.5k wasn't a down payment, it was all the fees and whatnot. But the description wasn't written down. The 1k deposit went towards the $2.5k.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2015 02:45

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

In addition, the guy is straight up fuckin lying to you. Dealers trade cars for free all the time. Never put money down on a new car. They come from factories and one that is identical to your *special snowflake* build can be poo poo out of Leipzig and on the dealer's lot in 9-12 weeks. You can possibly put money down on a numbers-matching drophead E-type but if you do so make sure the deposit is covered by some kind of documentation that includes what happens if you decide to back out of the deal (hint: you get your money back).

What fees are covered by the $2.5k? You're in Greater Boston, what dealer is this?

I don't want to reply with the dealer name until I make sure my number aren't off. I didn't end up signing just yet, because i wanted to look over the papers.

From my perspective, if someone screws me, I'll pay three times that amount to get my money back. That means if there's $300 in hidden fees, then I'll just eat it. Right now it looks like there is much more than that, but I'll need to run the numbers a few times before running it by legal then confronting the dealer as to where the mixup is (if the numbers are in fact as off from what i was told they are).

A few of the numbers that are off seem to have originated after a some levels of indirection, but one brazen example is a good chunk of the $2.5k going to "cap cost reduction" - which to my naive self sounds exactly like a down payment to me, which is something that the dealer was clear wouldn't be the case. Then again, that's what legal's for.

As for the 9-12 weeks, the rates he quoted me for a 2015 lease vs the rates for a 2016 lease were way off. The rationale is that the lease deals for 2016 weren't offered yet, hence the disparity. For example, there was a $500 feature I wanted that would have cost $11k over the life of the lease should I get it from a 2016. Of course, it's possible they are lying to me... but I need to do research first so I don't commit labile if there's something I'm missing.

diadem fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jul 23, 2015

# ¿ Jul 23, 2015 00:21

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

diadem posted:

I don't want to reply with the dealer name until I make sure my number aren't off. I didn't end up signing just yet, because i wanted to look over the papers.

From my perspective, if someone screws me, I'll pay three times that amount to get my money back. That means if there's $300 in hidden fees, then I'll just eat it. Right now it looks like there is much more than that, but I'll need to run the numbers a few times before running it by legal then confronting the dealer as to where the mixup is (if the numbers are in fact as off from what i was told they are).

A few of the numbers that are off seem to have originated after a some levels of indirection, but one brazen example is a good chunk of the $2.5k going to "cap cost reduction" - which to my naive self sounds exactly like a down payment to me, which is something that the dealer was clear wouldn't be the case. Then again, that's what legal's for.

As for the 9-12 weeks, the rates he quoted me for a 2015 lease vs the rates for a 2016 lease were way off. The rationale is that the lease deals for 2016 weren't offered yet, hence the disparity. For example, there was a $500 feature I wanted that would have cost $11k over the life of the lease should I get it from a 2016. Of course, it's possible they are lying to me... but I need to do research first so I don't commit labile if there's something I'm missing.

An example of what I need to do more research on is the "Rent charge." I'm looking at $15,196 deprecation with a charge of $4,188, which is around a 16% APR (instead of the 4.5% APR that the sample leases seem to have). Clearly I'm missing something here.

edit: AH! Money Factor � (Total Cap Cost + Residual). I thought I was paying against the depreciation of the car.

Edit2: Let's work backwards form the BMW site to see if this is right....
Total Cap: 34095
Residual: 22628
Depreciation: 11467
Total monthly payments: 12564

Now we we remove the deprecation and get 1097
Which means MONEY_FACTOR * (34095 + 22628) = 1097
0.0193395976940571 Money factor...

So.... Going back to my car with that money factor..
Total Cap: 43958.25
Residual: 28761.50
Depreciation: 15196.75
Money Factor: 0.0193395976940571
(43958.25 + 28761.50) * 0.0193395976940571
or 72719.75 * 0.0193395976940571 = 1,406

Which is *STILL* way off

A money factor of 0.0575982453185001 vs 0.0193395976940571. This is almost three times higher than advertised on the BMW site....

Is my above math off (do I have to cube these numbers or something since there are 3 years.. making it 1.7% and 45%)? It seems pretty simple stuff if the equation is right. I mean that's pretty freaking brazen to overcharge if it is...

diadem fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jul 23, 2015

# ¿ Jul 23, 2015 00:29

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

100% Dundee posted:

I think he meant it more as if he posted the dealers name/location/etc and then poo poo talked them. Not so much as asking for his $1000 back, which he should do. Then go to another dealership and give them his money and get exactly what he wants and not deal with this bullshit he's going through now.

What Dundee said is what I meant by not wanting to commit libel.

# ¿ Jul 23, 2015 01:41

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

IRQ posted:

It's not libel if it's true.

Right now I made a sanity check post on Bimmerfest and sent the dealer himself the following e-mail in the chain we've been having so far:

quote:

[Redacted],

Thanks again for calling last night. My thinking is that if finance is out for a few days I can just wait for them to get back. That way they can alleviate any confusion that I may have about the numbers. Mainly, from a high level, I want to verify that the numbers I'm seeing here are in line with what we originally discussed.

For example, I was looking at the Lease Agreement and noticed there was $1,391 towards cap reduction. Since, as you know, the path we went down (such as not getting the 2016) was predicated on numbers with $0 down payment, I was somewhat confused as to the 2.5k not being comprised heavily of what appears to be a down payment. Right now my reaction is along the lines of "I could be wrong, I often am. Let's figure out the disconnect so we can move forward and make all parties walk away with what they want."

If it would make things easier, I could send you over a bulleted list of questions I have about the lease. Otherwise I can wait to talk to the folks from finance in person and get these questions out of the way.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks again for your patience.

Kind Regards,
[Redacted]

(yes, I realize I have an extra "not" in there that may make things confusing :/)

edit: just got a reply

quote:

[Redacted] will be in the office tomorrow Friday the 24th at 10 am

Sent from my iPhone

another

quote:

Please contact [Redacted] at [Redacted] Friday. The car is being sold at a very low sale price, as my General manager expressed to me.

diadem fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jul 23, 2015

# ¿ Jul 23, 2015 14:40

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Alright. I came with the speak softly and carry a big stick mentality (with my lawyers at the ready if needed). Things turned out a lot more civil than I expected.

On a similar note, what are people's thoughts on a car like this instead? He's got a dealer he's partnered with to inspect the car, but I told him I'd rather go through an impartial third party to take a look at the car and he had no problems with that. There'd be a $49 dealer fee, $250 to get the car inspected if i go through his guy, a rough estimate of 1.3k if he ships the car but I'm welcome to find someone cheaper myself. The reg plates and state inspection and all that jazz would have to be handled by me.

So I'd be looking at 1.74% APR with $0 up front by going through my own bank, which comes to $1,636.53 interest.

I'd probably want to sell it once the warranty is up. Any idea how much that depreciation would be? How much of a pain would it be to sell?

That said, this guy also would want $1k deposit if I were to pull the trigger on the car, which would only be refundable if the inspection fails. Which - if this actually is a good deal, would be around the same predication as me giving him the 45,550 anyhow, no? Is this a more reasonable ask on his part for the $1k deposit in this circumstance?

(For those wondering, I'd use angies list to find an impartial third party in his area)

diadem fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jul 25, 2015

# ¿ Jul 25, 2015 18:21

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Keyser S0ze posted:

use BIMRS.ORG to find an indy BMW mechanic in any area

http://www.bimrs.org/BMWshopLocator.html

that deal for a 2 with 8k miles doesn't sound so hot either.........

Do you mind elaborating on how you were able to figure out the used M235x's fair value so I can do so myself?

# ¿ Jul 25, 2015 19:20

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

I'm in the process of trying to get my deposit back (legal is on standby, I still have plenty of time to charge back, but they claim to have no problem refunding my money)

In the meantime I'm looking at this.

-I'd be getting a $0 down and 1.74% APR loan from my credit union for payment (up to 65 months, though I'd probably do 3 years to just get it over with)
-Additional fees would be sales tax, $395 registration
-It's not certified pre-owned. They said they can certify it if I really want, but it'd raise the price if it is.
-They have no qualms with me bringing the car to my mechanic

Any red flags on this one?

I'd like to stop by, test drive, have my lawyers look over the purchase and sale, then buy it if my mechanic gives the thumbs up and it doesn't smell of smoke. That said, sanity check first

diadem fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jul 31, 2015

# ¿ Jul 31, 2015 00:57

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

mastershakeman posted:

A luxury badge.

Close. I was curious what the fuss was about driving a nice car. When my 99 accord was busted I did a lot of research on cars (but not dealers). The BMW stood out because it was the highest rated non-tesla . The m37x stood out because it was the used car best bet from Edmunds.

I will follow up with a post about what I am specifically looking for in a car, but after test driving a bunch that sounded great on paper/reviews but weren't that great in reality (like the genesis) those were my two finalists.

It comes.down to a sporty luxury car or the perfect drivers car. The BMW won out but the logistics to get the lease done right are a bit much.

diadem fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jul 31, 2015

# ¿ Jul 31, 2015 19:11

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The logistics of getting the lease done right are fine as long as you nut up, negotiate properly, and don't take poo poo from a bad dealership.

You raise a valid point, especially seeing the resources and knowledge now at my disposal.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 13:25

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Thanks again kyoon. You gave enough info to get what i want.

My fun car will be a european delivery m235i (with all thr bells and whistles i want) followed by a performance center delivery. 1k over invoice 7x security deposit, good mf, 3 year lease, etc. This will happen when the weather is nice in Germany so i can most enjoy the experience. Plus that means the road trip from the performance center wont be in winter.

For current transportation im picking up a honda pilot ex-l close to full deprecation with low miles. The dealer is cool with my mechanic looking at the car first and giving me all the numbers up front (i had to go through a lot of dealers to find somebe who would say yes to that). I figure the two cars will compliment each other pretty well and it will prevent stress of needing a car should one dissapear. Sadly, vacation and second car included, the m235 with more options is around the same cost as the original 228 deal you strayed me away from.

diadem fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Aug 11, 2015

# ¿ Aug 11, 2015 13:01

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Car recommendation (via template)
Proposed Budget: $30k or less. Hopefully much less.
New or Used: Used. Possibly lease, but greatly prefer used.
Body Style: Compact or Midsized
How will you be using the car?: Congested city driving (Greater Boston area).
What aspects are most important to you? (e.g. reliability, cost of ownership/maintenance, import/domestic, MPG, size, style)
This is a car for my wife.

What I'm looking to stick with

Something that is reliable. Personally, I drive a 2004 Honda Pilot that I spent around $6k on. It's got approaching 150k miles and is still going strong. When it does have an issue, it's something trivial for my mechanic to fix.
Something that handles well in the snow. This is New England, after all.
Something nimble (including reasonable in the snow, so I'm not sure if that rules out a miata)
Something easy to park in a congested city. (So, not another used Pilot). Self-parking would be amazing, but not required. I can install an aftermarket rear view camera if needed.
Speed isn't really that important, but if the 0-60 is so bad my that Pilot can give it a run for its money, we'll have a problem. I'm looking at you, Elantra.
She wants something comfy. Heated seats, dual climate control a plus. Sunroof or convertible a plus too but nowhere near necessary.

What's new to me - modern safety features:

When I drove in a CTS (rental), I had a holographic display showing us the cars around us. There was a HUD telling us the speed limit (which was sometimes wrong). The wheel tried to force me to stay in the lane (even when I tried to exit a highway). There was a collision warning system that shook the seat along with a popup on the holographic hud of the direction (even when I was stopped at a light and a pedestrian was walking towards us). There aws parking camera which simulated an overhead view of the car (ok, I admit that one was cool), and an easy to use parking assist that could auto-park in seemingly impossible spots (which was also cool)

As you can guess by my comments, I hated most of these features and vastly preferred my Pilot's solution of having huge windows with massive mirrors that overlapped and gave me a view of everything. But she wants the tech.
If it wasn't for that desire for tech, anything from a Focus to Forester* an M35 to a 2x series to an Accord/Civic to a Camry would do. But I'm really out of the loop with 1st party gadgets and gimmicks.
Red. I almost forgot this one, but it's important to her. She wants a red car.

Disclaimer: I never paid more than $20k for a car. I got very lucky when I bought used so far, and I've gotten my share of used cars. That said, I'm "old" and every car I had so far was simple. For example, if I wanted to add a GPS to my Pilot, I just took out the 2-Din tape player and replaced it with an after-market android-auto box with touch screen/etc. I know the newer cars have this stuff built in and don't like to be messed with, but aside from that I'm totally out of the loop.

*Edit: Love Subarus but I get scared when that make passes 80k miles.
*As for an awd 2 series, that's the only one that I'd think of leasing instead of buying.
*Edit2: She loves the look of a Mini.
*Edit3: The Infiniti M35, obviously not the army truck.

diadem fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Nov 5, 2018

# ¿ Nov 5, 2018 00:00

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

My wife looked at a few cars, and the outcome was vastly different than what I expected

New proposed Budget: $6-$8k
New or Used: Used
Body Style: 4 Door preferred, Moonroof would be nice but not necessary
How will you be using the car?: City commuter (Boston)
Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos? No, though heated seats would be a plus (or anything to make the cold go away faster)
What aspects are most important to you? Reliability. Safety (including Boston winters). Ease of parking/maneuvering in a city

Right now I'm mainly looking for a sanity check. My wife actually really likes the Toyota Corolla first and Camry second, which is a very happy surprise for me.

I'm thinking of finding a used Toyota with a little over 100k miles on it and a clean carfax report. The idea is if we get a reasonable deal we have my mechanic look at it and if my mechanic gives the thumbs up, just buy it. We have no trade-in and my wife is already pre-approved via our bank.

Are there any red flags I should be aware of with this approach?

diadem fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Dec 15, 2018

# ¿ Dec 15, 2018 01:53

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Proposed Budget: Hopefully under $30k? I'm not used to buying cars that cost more than $8k, but I don't really think I have a choice anymore.
New or Used: Assuming used but open to new.
Body Style: IDGAF
How will you be using the car?: I'm going to be driving my wife, her parents, a 2-year old, and a newborn. Obviously the newborn and the toddler will be in car seats. We'll need a lot of seats.
What aspects are most important to you? The car just needs to work. My schedule is batshit insane. For context, my wife has a Toyota Corolla. It's the perfect car for us but simply doesn't have enough seats. Also, I live in the greater Boston area so maneuverability (especially when it comes to parking in tight spaces) and handling on the snow are key. This is a baby hauler, not a sports car, so the obvious requirements go along with it (safety, etc)

My co-workers love their new x5's and Tesla X's for this (or possibly Cayenne Turbos), but that's all way outside my price range.

diadem fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Dec 17, 2021

# ¿ Dec 17, 2021 16:55

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

If it makes that much of a difference, I can change my budget to $35k

Thanks for the options! I'll take a look at all of these.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2021 18:19

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

skipdogg posted:

Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey. I personally favor the Sienna. You should be able to find a decently equipped 2017 or 2018 around 30K.... maybe. Used car market is freaking nuts right now.

You may be better off buying brand new if you can stretch the budget to 35K.

Many of the thread regulars like the Pacifica, but it might be out of budget. The Chrysler Voyager is closer to budget, but I don't know much about them.

The minivan is the best option though, fantastic people movers and 7 to 8 comfortable adult and car seat friendly seats. Even the largest 7-8 passenger SUV's don't have a comfortable 3rd row for adults. We have an Expedition and even with a vehicle that size the 3rd row is for kids. Adults will survive for shorter trips but no way I'd sit back there for 4 or 5 hours.

semi fake edit: Neither my wife or I wanted to buy a minivan, despite knowing it was the best vehicle for our needs when the kids were younger. We had a series of Ford Explorers, and currently a Ford Expedition. We made due with the occasional use of the 3rd row in those vehicles, but it was not the best vehicle. I borrowed a family members Sienna for a weekend once and it was by far the superior family and kid hauling vehicle. We do not regularly use the 3rd row in our cars. If you're regularly going to have your parents in the car, the minivan is the only sane answer. I don't know how old your folks are, but they're probably not going to want to climb into the 3rd row of any SUV and sit back there for any extended amount of time.

I did a bit of digging and the Pacifica sounds great in theory. I can save up for a bit and buy it a bit closer to the due date of the next kid.

Explosionface posted:

Our 2019 Pacifica is still doing pretty good overall. The difference between the Voyager and the Pacifica other than the badge is that the Voyager really just encompasses what used to be the lower 2-3 trims of the Pacifica. Depending on what features you want, that may make tracking down a Voyager a good, cheaper option.

Our few problems so far:
We've had some issues with some unexpected hard shifting on the transmission. Infrequent, but startling when it happens. When this happened early on, the dealer was able to make an adjustment that lasted for a while. Only recently came back.
The auto start/stop function we have is unavailable for the second time. Apparently this is related to the auxiliary battery, which we had replaced as warranty work before, but I need to do myself now to save a few bucks.

Is this with the Hybrid or the "normal" model?

How does it handle in the snow? The AWD option sounds amazing (I live on a hill in a Boston suburb). Is it necessary?

Finally, it looks like the Carnival is the big competitor for the Pacifica, but I don't see it mentioned here. Is the Carnival too new to trust?

# ¿ Dec 21, 2021 20:47

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Thanks all! We are replacing my old Pilot with a new Pacifica Limited (that is still being built).

I haven't bought a new car since the 90's. Are negotiations still a thing, or is it pretty much stick price + doc fee and be happy, on account of the fact that these things are selling like hotcakes and nearly impossible to get?

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 18:17

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

HisMajestyBOB posted:

I'm still having no luck finding the car I want (Pacifica Hybrid Limited) and there seem to be even fewer available than before. Does anyone know if I'd likely have to pay a premium to place an ordr, or could I order one at MSRP? Every in-stock van I've found has been asking at least $1000 over MSRP.

I'm not seeing anything over the doc fee. The dealership wants to charge $700 for an "upgrade we do to all our cars" which is clearly a worthless $700 upcharge, but that's it.

If you are willing to wait, you can custom order it (though I have seen most of the newer cars being built w/o the safety sphere, which is kind a big deal to me personally). Are you sure you want the Hybrid? Did you research the transmission issues and the lack of AWD?

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 20:01

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

I've got some follow-up questions about negotiations involving the Pacifica I put a $500 deposit in (that's still being built).

Most of it goes to me being an idiot who expected a car dealer to negotiate in good faith. I want to make sure my course of action given the circumstances is reasonable.

Quick backstory:
- Found one and only one dealer that has the car we want. They know this. The car isn't available but near the end of being built.

While at the dealer (an hour away):
- I was not given a copy of the printout of the price to bring home.
- There is a doc fee of (if I recall correctly) $625 or so
- There is a price of ~700ish for etching and a software update that changes the way the brake lights behave. They say they do this to all their cars.
- In regards to financing, they took maybe an hour to "crunch the numbers" then came back with a grid showing monthly payments based on term and down payment, with no other information. We were not given our own copy. I was told I could refinance after four months without a penalty, but no details above and beyond that.
- I put in $500 to secure the vehicle but was not given any documentation to verify what the payment was for
- Like an idiot, I brought my pregnant wife with me and told them I wanted this specific car before the due date. Also, like an idiot, I came in with the VIN and stated that this was the only car in a 3 state radius that had what I wanted and was scheduled to go to them.

I called them the next day
- Since the car was still being built I asked if it was at the point of the process to change the color. The answer was that the only way to handle this would be to order a new car which would take some time out. No big deal. I can keep the current color.
- I then mentioned that since the car was still being built I wanted to pass on the etching and the software update. I get they want extra money due to a premium, but I see changing the brake lights to pulse instead of being solid when pushed is a safety issue. People drive their whole lives and work off muscle memory. Thye don't think, the act. A brake light that doesn't behave normally requires processing for people to understand, which is a bad thing, and I don't want to put myself in that situation. The answer was "those come installed by the time they reach our floor" and cannot be undone. This seems fishy to me.
- I asked for details on the paperwork for the numbers they used to calculate the monthly payments. Origination fees, APR, and other general terms. I was told this can only be provided in person and they can only give me the paperwork in person. They explained this is because they don't know what my credits scores will end up or what the rates will be. This is bizarre to me for a variety of reasons, such as the fact they already provided that sheet before based on assumptions. The only reason I can think of is that they'll try and draw out the process so I give in and not read because of fatigue and desperation. This is shady as hell and really didn't sit well with me. On top of that, if they gave me a projected monthly payment based on an expected credit rating, why can they not give me the basic information of how it was calculated, like the amount paid in interest/principal/etc? When I told them I'll just finance on my own or pay cash, they told me there will be a $900 fee if I don't finance with them.

Takeaway
- I'll just eat the hidden fees so long as they aren't more than $3000, then go to a mechanic to perform a factory reset on the software of the vehicle so it's safe to drive and to clear out the dealer-specific crap. Past that point losing a $500 deposit wouldn't matter.
- The above includes eating the $900 fee to finance on my own, because I no longer belive they are working in good faith. I'dr rather pay the fee upfront and not have the unexpected happen due to some BS in page 999 of small print.
- I really need to have, in writing, the actual end cost of the car to make sure it is what we agreed to there and they don't slip anything in. I figure flat out telling them I'm financing the car on my own and need the numbers now to get it done. If they
insist I need it in person, I'll take the printout and make a couple round trips. It'll waste a lot of my time, but the important part is that I won't be beholden to any dealer-type drama once the deal is done and won't need to see them again.
- Without a contract stating why I paid the $500 I'm wondering if they could just sell the car out from under me anyhow, but that's less of an issue.

Are my concerns and reactions reasonable? Any suggestions?

diadem fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Feb 20, 2022

# ¿ Feb 20, 2022 17:26

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Inner Light posted:

$700 partially for a software update to change what the brake lights do? How is this poo poo legal, dealers can�t go away fast enough. I would complain to Honda, can�t believe they would be ok with the way that was explained.

I also goddamn hate brake lights that pulse 15 times in front of me when the pedal is pushed.

I was considering contacting Chrysler. Making a car less safe could hinder the car's statistics, which in turn could in turn generate reputational risk. If this hurts sales more than the effort to resolve and loss of good will with he cash cow dealerships, they may help resolve this.

Plus you raise a good point. I live in the Boston area and don't want my tires slashed. Traffic can be stop and go, and you can be behind someone for a while, and road rage is a thing.

edit: To clarify, the $700 is out of memory so it may be a little more or less. On account of not actually having a physical copy of the sheet.

diadem fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Feb 20, 2022

# ¿ Feb 20, 2022 17:34

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

KillHour posted:

You can still get your deposit back and you probably should and walk away. How important is that specific Chrysler Pacifica to you?

Some thoughts: VIN etching is a common scam dealerships pull and you should not pay for it. I've never heard of reprogramming brake lights but same deal. Specific details about financing rates can change up to maybe a month or two before the car is delivered (because manufacturer incentives and financing can change) but if a dealership is only giving you payment amounts and no other details, run the gently caress away because you're about to be scammed. Any dealership that won't let you finance externally is trying to pull one over on you. Here's what's happening - they want the kickback for getting you into a poo poo loan. That takes a few months. They're making up terrible terms for you so you have to take a loan with horrible terms and then hold on to it until they get their kickback. A dealership that isn't trying to screw you will let you get your own financing and a loan that isn't a total scam will have no fees for early payment even on day one.

Do not buy a car from that dealership they have every single red flag

Find a different car you want. Negotiate on the price only - no financing talk no timeframe demands, make it clear the price you want out the door, all in. Make it as ambiguous as possible how you are actually going to pay. Focus on the out the door costs. Once you get to a number you're happy with, put a deposit on that number and make sure it's all in writing. Then go secure your own financing from a bank or credit union. When it comes time to figure out financing, use that as leverage to say "hey I have financing on these terms can you do better?" Focus on rates and terms not monthly payments. Remember that you can walk and get all your money back literally until the moment you sign the loan paperwork.

TL;DR: do not pay thousands over MSRP for a loving Chrysler minivan that the dealer hosed with! If you aren't comfortable negotiating, go on leasehackr and pay a broker $300-500 to find you a car and do it for you.

Thanks. Your reply was quite helpful. I just want a Pacifica with AWD that can self-park. Any limited that doesn't have the safety sphere deleted can do that (the deletion of the safety sphere is the hard part - seems to be happening a lot). Everything else is gravy. How badly I want one $3,000 over MSRP (I want one pretty badly).

- Going to go through my credit union to get the financing through them. Did this with 3 cars before and am very happy with my credit union.
- Going to scour for other dealers that have a car with those two features.
- I'll use that website if necessary. But if my extended family isn't with me, it's easier to play hardball. Also, now that my wife gets what's up, she can be a bit of a force of nature when called for. The toddler and others are going to stay home next time though.

Edit: obviously going to get walk away from the scummy dealer now

diadem fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Feb 21, 2022

# ¿ Feb 20, 2022 19:39

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

TheWevel posted:

https://pulseprotects.com/product-info/

They�re splicing.

OP was an easy mark and should definitely get a broker.

I totally was.
1) I came in tired, which made me look weak. And I was also not fully aware.
2) I allowed my family to come with me and focused on helping them be happy when they were bored instead of focusing on the sale
3) I was polite instead of calling out BS when it came. I made assumptions about their character (that they weren't scum) instead of calling a spade a spade. My guard was down when it should have been up.
4) I made it clear they had something I wanted, that there weren't many other options to fit my family's needs, that I looked everywhere else and they were the only people who had what I wanted.
5) I didn't ask enough clarifying questions
6) I came in late at night after driving an hour, which they were well aware of. I stayed near closing time with a toddler and allowed them to jerk me around.
7) I was too blase when it came to talking about price
8) I let them lead and didn't try and take the reigns at all

On top of me being a mark, there was no reason for me to go with them after what they pulled. Go with folks that treat you well.

I am running from this dealership. Now that I realize "getting a car delivered is a thing" I was able to call the dealership that delivers. Others pulled none of this crap, and was able to find a car that had all the features I wanted. For less than what this one would have been.

One of the dealerships I called was even able to go under MSRP for a Pinnacle (assuming the pending sale falls through).

Thank you all!

# ¿ Feb 21, 2022 16:31

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Almost a success story! There's still the issue of getting my deposit back. When I try to reach my salesperson directly I get voicemail, and when i try to cancel through someone else I'm asked who my salesperson is and am told there's no salesperson here with that name.

I'll give a couple of days of trying before I assume they are jerking me around and spend the 2+ hours for a round trip to drive there in person.

diadem fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 22, 2022

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 23:40

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Got the last document to sign for that new Pacifica I'm about to buy. It's an Agreement to Arbitrate. The dealership's reviews are stellar, but I asked them to remove that.

Aside from that my experience has been great. Unlike the last dealer they kept trying to find an excuse to lower the price after the agreement instead of raising it, which was a good switch.

Am i worrying over nothing since the dealership has a good rep and it's a new car? Or should I push against that since it's a remote sale and technically if they send me a twinkie instead of a car it'd need to go through the American arbitration association across the country?

I asked them to remove it because it sounds like if they send me a lemon i'd be stuck with it as it stands now.

edit: added a link to the contract, sans PII

edit2: If it matters, the dealership's reviews google are 4.7 stars with well over 1.4k folks, with nearly every negative review having to do with people not understanding how reality works (such as being denied a loan for a good reason, the dealership not agreeing to do something that clearly violates a law, or the dealership's service lot doing bog-standard stuff like charging more for new wipers than it would cost to buy/change them yourself).

Edit3: Yeah, I'm overthinking this because of my experience with the previous dealer. This is a new car, so if it's a lemon or something I'll deal with Chrysler, not them. I'm not financing with them , so that is out of scope (I'm getting 1.49% at a credit union I used for a number of cars before). I declined all the upsale of an extended warranty, so there's nothing odd in addition to the car. And anything else I can think of that they could possibly do would be flat-out criminal or covered by insurance. I haven't seen any indication of them pulling something like this based on scouring review sites and looking at their negative reviews (which seem to be complaining about trivial things or stuff where the customer was waaay too entitled).

diadem fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Mar 6, 2022

# ¿ Mar 5, 2022 17:10

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Update; The dealer sent every document I need overnight. All good.

Edit: changing from a rant to a coherent question. Sent the same question to my lawyer.

The dealership was great. But we have another problem. The car has temporary Illinois plates. They are using ATC Automated Title Certificate Service to take care of registering the vehicle for me so that I don't need to stop by the RMV to drive the car. The temporary plates lasts 60 days and new plates should arrive in a little over a month.

The problem with this is that the state of MA does not honor temporary out-of-state plates for MA residents. To get around this, I drove my wife's (legally registered) Corolla to the RMV so I could register the Pacifica by transferring over the plates from my Pilot.

- I have a bill of sale, which includes proof of paying taxes
- I have proof of insurance
- I have a registration document signed by my insurance company
- I have a physical license plate that I wish to use, from another registered vehicle I wish to get rid of
- I have physical possession of the new car, which is in my driveway
- The new car has Illionois temporary plates
- I have information from the bank which holds the title during the course of the loan.

What I do not have is a certificate of origin. I'm unsure if the dealership is allowed to send me this certificate or not (ATC seems to belives they may not be). I am unsure of the laws and some laws seem to be behind a paywall (though I'm not sure if this is even the right place to look). The RMV will not allow me to register a vehicle without a certificate of origin.

My objective is to legally drive the vehicle as quickly as possible, with a car seat installed. Today if possible. Otherwise before my wife gives birth to our daughter (which may be as soon as next month)

Are there actionable steps I can take to make this happen?

edit2: Being bounced around various legal channels. You'd think this would be a solved problem, but nobody I've talked to thus far seems to know the specifics of the law. Looks like the next level of legal help will respond some time tomorrow because they are booked for the rest of the day.
edit3: After I explained the situation, my car dealer is overnighting the documents I need.

diadem fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 17, 2022

# ¿ Mar 16, 2022 18:50

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Hadlock posted:

Cross country transport arranged. Hopefully arriving sometime before mid-april

Wired the guy three thousand miles away, five figures uh, 9 days ago, haven't gotten the title yet

Guy holding the title is ~79 years old so giving him some slack, but uh,

I hope things turn out alright. That's a gorgeous car.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2022 14:21

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

I just wanted to post a final follow-up. Everything is resolved and I'm loving my Pinnacle. The car dealer in Illinois followed through with everything he promised. The car drives like a dream and the comfort features for my family make road trips enjoyable, even with a large family.

When my friends stopped by to check it out, they went from "I can't believe you are driving a minivan now" to "ok I gotta admit this car is actually pretty cool" in a short time.

I saved thousands by going with a better dealer than my original local MA one, despite upgrading to a loaded Pinnacle.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2022 14:37

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

Posting for a friend who is not a goon (I told him how this place helped me find a pacifica under MSRP).

He has a 20-year-old civic (manual transmission) that has a head gasket issue. biking isn't an option and public transit would be a 3-hour commute.

Proposed Budget: 20k-30k. Less is obviously better.
New or Used: Whatever
Body Style: Whatever
How will you be using the car?: Commuter to work (Boston suburb to Boston suburb). Pick up groceries. Maybe a passenger or two on rare occasions.
What aspects are most important to you?
Must have:
- Reliable. Can get to and from work. Will turn on when the key starts. Won't break down after 10 years in new england weather (salted road, etc).
- Good maneuverability (think civic or miata)
- Can handle Boston winters. AWD isn't a must because he's of the mentality "it's great if you can drive in the snow/ice, but you still need to be able to brake"
Nice to have:
- Manual transmission (stick)
- Racing seats
- Easy to park in Boston
- Would be nice to keep its value

His first choice was another civic but they all seem to be 7k+ over MSRP. Right now he's looking at if he could just get one custom built at MSRP and use a zipcar or whatever as he waits.

He's thinking of a FIT but they were discontinued stateside, so he'll have to ship that from Europe.

A Corolla is obviously on the table but equally hard to find.

He's ok with a plugin hybrid even though it won't be manual. But he doesn't want a full electric because he doesn't have a garage and doesn't like the idea of outdoor charging stations.

He mentioned looking into a Kia Niro.

I mentioned Hyundai Accent to him.

He's possibly interested in a Miata but is unsure if the lack of a trunk will be an issue (groceries in back seat, luggage when driving to the airport etc). He's also wondering how it handles in the winter.

We are assuming impreza aren't reliable after 100k because of rust issues due to Mew England salted roads.

diadem fucked around with this message at 15:28 on May 6, 2022

# ¿ May 6, 2022 15:24

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 18:24

diadem: Sep 20, 2003; eet bugz

ethanol posted:

Miata is a bad commuter car when there�s winter involved. I drove one for 6 years in New England and I�m very lucky it didn�t kill me. Lucky I had access to a crv for much of that period.

Also they�re not going to meet the requirement of holding up after 10 years in a salt state. Even my diff housing was basically rusting through. (2008 miata). You could argue that�s going to be any car but you�ll also be in for a new top because they do not hold up well either. I had to do brakes way more frequently than other cars as well due to rust issues. Not sure what the deal was with that.

And putting luggage in it bigger than a carry on is a problem as well.

The people who drive Miatas in winter and claim it�s fine are simply insane or lying. When the New England sleet mix is on the road good luck even on winter tires. It�s just way too light.

Also I got backed into twice because nobody can see the thing.

Yeah it�s safe to say I do not miss the Miata except for beautiful summer days.

Thanks, everyone. You talked him out of a Miata.

He ended up ordering a manual hatchback Corolla that will arrive in a few weeks.

# ¿ May 9, 2022 17:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > AI meets BFC: Car Buying Thread: No Rentals and No Salvage Titles

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