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Whiskey A Go Go!
May 7, 2007

So if I break a bone, I get a cookie? Good deal!



So I am kicking myself for sleeping on the Endgame Gear XM1 because the revisions they did to it make it quite amazing. After my Sensei Ten's mouse wheel started to skip, I tired the XM1 because it is the sensei shape with a bare-bones appearance and god drat it works really well. I really like the idea that the software is just to set dpi and you never have to open it again unless you want to update the firmware. Also having a stock paracord cable and PFTE feet on the mouse for only 79.99 Canadian was a steal. It wast just werid to order it from Amazon to have it be shipped from NewEgg Canada.

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GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Generic Monk posted:

late but I own the mx master 2s and it's amazing, best mouse I've ever owned. I owned a G603 and the tracking/response was great but it feels cheaply made and the scrollwheel started acting up after under a year.

you might not think you use the thumbwheel but it's really useful if you do any amount of work with the thing, particularly if you use windows (OSX has the shift+scrollwheel thing that works everywhere, windows' implementation varies wildly from app to app). the gesture button is amazing for media controls and as a shortcut to the app switcher. the hyperfast scrollwheel is something that feels like a gimmick if you use pageup/down/home/end but the use is so natural that it becomes second nature. it also feels really solidly built and the soft-touch finish is really nice, the g603 feels like cheap plastic. also the most comfortable mouse I've ever used if you palm it, which is what you want to be doing if you're doing work with it. in terms of the grip, i feel like it fills the gap that my palm naturally leaves when i palm less 'humpy' mice, which ends up reducing tension and being more comfortable for long term use.

i honestly hate gimmicky bullshit features but everything on that mouse is so well implemented that it's all immensely useful. i got it for half off RRP on amazon but I like it so much that if it broke tomorrow I'd buy the 3S for full price no questions asked.

only issue is that it's a bit heavy and not the most comfortable if you claw/fingertip it, which isn't amazing for games. the sensors/wireless on the gaming mice are obviously better but for me on my 60hz monitor with mediocre input lag it's night and day difference. i'd definitely put the wireless on the master far ahead of the wireless on their older gaming mice (i owned a g602 and got cramp in my hand trying to compensate for the lag and acceleration.

i bought a second hand g703 for gaming (would probably recommend that over the g603 just because it feels more solidly built with rubberised sides etc; it's the same dimensions i think. there are FLASHING LIGHTS but you can turn those off in the software)

i guess it comes down to your budget and what you're going to be using it for mostly. the ideal setup is one mouse for work/casual use and one mouse for gaming, and i'd recommend this not just because they are very specialised, but also because i don't have too much faith in the durability of gaming mice. optimising everything for lightness plus a higher portion of the BOM going into the sensor and wireless seems to come at the expense of longevity in my experience. if you have two mice, then the gaming mouse will last longer, is my rationalisation

i write this overlong post mainly because i discovered today after a year of use that i can assign the gesture button to media controls and it's so loving convenient i genuinely thought 'that's amazing, i'm really happy with this purchase' which only happens in infomercials and fake amazon reviews. hopefully this helps!

I appreciate the input. I bought the MX Master 3 and it's a pretty okay device.
The supination is definitely more extreme than I'm used to but it's not uncomfortable. It does make it a bit more difficult to palm like most mice though because the hump is much more protrusive around the thenar webspace.
The magscroll wheel if AMAZING and the smart shift that auto locks/unlocks the scroll is really cool too (albeit unnecessary)
I did not realize that it was bluetooth/wifi only. I thought it was also usb-c but that's not a huge deal since the bluetooth is so good and I have no real need to use it as a USB mouse.

It's definitely going to remain planted on my work desk, but I'm still considering a G603 for my travel bag.
G703 isn't bluetooth so it unfortunately gets a hard pass. I can't afford to give up my Surface's only USB port to a mouse or keyboard.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Anyone have any recommendations for a mouse pouch for my $100 mouse?

Looking for something nice to tote it around in for travel. Bonus points if it has molle or a loop to put a carabiner though.

Koskun
Apr 20, 2004
I worship the ground NinjaPablo walks on

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Anyone have any recommendations for a mouse pouch for my $100 mouse?

Looking for something nice to tote it around in for travel. Bonus points if it has molle or a loop to put a carabiner though.

A Crown Royal bag?

Fauxtool
Oct 21, 2008



GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Anyone have any recommendations for a mouse pouch for my $100 mouse?

Looking for something nice to tote it around in for travel. Bonus points if it has molle or a loop to put a carabiner though.

if its a logitech or razer mouse most of them have specific semi rigid cases that work really well.
I use this with my laptop's mouse and its great
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Fauxtool fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 28, 2020

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Koskun posted:

A Crown Royal bag?

I was hoping for something just a little more padded, and resilient, and maybe a zipper or velcro flap.
and also nevermind because I just googled "MX Master 3 mouse case" and got this:

https://www.newegg.com/p/0TP-01EZ-0...=9SIAKWFBRF7474

Or this if I'm willing to wait 2 months:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000330278371.html

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000370019800.html

But I think I might go with one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Aproca-Trave...B07H8FL271?th=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B082D3DJQR?th=1

GnarlyCharlie4u fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 28, 2020

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

Anyone have any recommendations for a mouse pouch for my $100 mouse?

Looking for something nice to tote it around in for travel. Bonus points if it has molle or a loop to put a carabiner though.

This has mostly already been covered, but I can concur from experience that most popular mice have a good selection of custom-fitted hard cases. In particular I've been completely satisfied with all of the ones from the "co2crea" brand (which appears to sell some cases that are identical to those by other brands, admittedly) such as this one.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Atomizer posted:

This has mostly already been covered, but I can concur from experience that most popular mice have a good selection of custom-fitted hard cases. In particular I've been completely satisfied with all of the ones from the "co2crea" brand (which appears to sell some cases that are identical to those by other brands, admittedly) such as this one.

That's precisely the response I was hoping for. I was on the fence about getting that one in particular but I'm sold now.

LochNessMonster
Feb 3, 2005

I need about three fitty



My G-Wolves Skoll came in. Pretty happy with it so far.

Shogunner
Apr 29, 2010

Ready to crash and burn.
I never learn.
I'm on the rapetrain.

Anyone have a Steelseries Rival 650 or other "lag-free" wireless gaming mouse that you recommend?

I have made the realization that I just don't care about playing FPS games competitively anymore, and would like to rid myself of cable drag forever. I generally like ergo/right-handed shaped mice. I've had an OG Steelseries rival for a long time now and still love it, except the cable.

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

Over the past few years wireless mice have become straight up superior to wired mouse even for competitive play. Logitech's lightspeed and Razer's hyperspeed are both extremely fast, others I haven't seen as much testing on but it's probably all the same hardware from some random chinese vendor.

Ironically a Razer product is likely to be the most reliable mouse right now, because optical switches don't present the low voltage debouncing nightmare that the most common mechanical switches do due to being used outside of spec. Also bonus of like 0.1ms less latency on clicks or something like that since the debounce is faster.

I would recommend trying a non-ergo mouse though, not only can they weigh less but once you try out a really low mouse you realize it's actually a lot more ergonomic than an ergo shape.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007

Bote McBoteface. so what


I'm seconding any of the recent Logitech or Razer wireless models.

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

There's no way a wireless mouse is actually superior to one with a cable.

But if you can live with the security implications, they're fine.

pocket pool
Aug 4, 2003

B U T T S



Bleak Gremlin

I’m the guy hacked into your mice monitoring your clicks.

Koskun
Apr 20, 2004
I worship the ground NinjaPablo walks on

Fame Douglas posted:

There's no way a wireless mouse is actually superior to one with a cable.

But if you can live with the security implications, they're fine.

Logitech has their response time down to the 3-6ms range on some of their mice while Razer was at 9-12ms, and this was from testing done 4 years ago. Razer seems to have almost halved those numbers in the time since.

Wired mice look to be as low as 6ms on the upper end of the price point.

Wireless mice can actually be faster in their response time than wired, IF the quality is sufficient. If you go with a cheap mouse, you get higher input lag.

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

Koskun posted:

Logitech has their response time down to the 3-6ms range on some of their mice while Razer was at 9-12ms, and this was from testing done 4 years ago. Razer seems to have almost halved those numbers in the time since.

Wired mice look to be as low as 6ms on the upper end of the price point.

Wireless mice can actually be faster in their response time than wired, IF the quality is sufficient. If you go with a cheap mouse, you get higher input lag.

I'd like to see these results and their methodology because I seriously doubt a lot of that information.

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

On the fastest mice (Razer's optical switches) you MIGHT be paying a ~1ms penalty for being wireless. It's more of an issue with testing than the actual speed of the wired vs wireless connection. The other big factor was weight. It wasn't until the G Pro Wireless and then the Viper Ultimate that wireless mice got light enough that the weight penalty was less than the effective weight of the cord. The advantages of being super light and not having a cord more than make up for what is in all likelihood a sub-1ms input delay. That's why you've seen a widespread move among pro and competitive gamers to mice like the G305 Lightspeed, G Pro Wireless, and Viper Ultimate over the past year or so.

It's a similar story with sensors. The last 2-3 years sensors have finally become good enough that good sensors in most mice are now way beyond human limitations in every metric. You can't physically move your arm fast enough or with enough precision that error becomes relevant. There are still improvements to make and they're worth making, but we won't see any huge leaps in mouse performance going forward.

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?


It is definitely possible for a wireless mouse to be faster than many or even most wired mice. It is physically and logically impossible for a wireless mouse to be faster than an equivalent wired mouse (or the same mouse in a wired mode, as is commonly supported these days).

I mean just think about it logically.

Mouse Sensor -> Mouse SoC -> USB -> PC
vvs.
Mouse Sensor -> Mouse SoC -> Wireless -> USB -> PC

If all else is equal, there is no way to remove latency by adding a step.

---

And yes, technically the speed of light in copper wiring is around 2/3 that of air, so as demonstrated by high-frequency traders it is possible for a wireless link to provide lower latency than a wired link. The thing is, that difference is around a half of a nanosecond per foot of cable, and doesn't account for whatever error correction is required to provide reliable connectivity. At the distances HFT users operate at it can still win, but not in anything resembling a normal desktop environment.

tl;dr: The claims of wireless being faster than wired are pure marketing deception at best.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013



Except that actual wireless mice are faster than actual wired mice. I get that "all other things being equal" they won't... assuming you ignore cord drag. But in the real world things are rarely otherwise equal. Modern wireless mice are good and lack the perceptible lag of wireless mice from even a few years ago.

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

That's an interesting claim. Do you have data to validate that claim?

Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Sep 2, 2020

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




I heard wireless mice were outperforming wired, like two years ago I want to say. I want to say it was chalked up to something about how the mouse communicates with the PC that slowed things down vs the physical capabilities of wire, but I don't remember where I saw this, nor how dongles would circumvent this.

But this isn't the first time I've heard this, is the point.

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

Yeah, I've heard this a lot too. I'm unable to find literally anyone providing an explanation with data though. It's mostly just claims and I'm somewhat convinced it's just claims being repeated over and over again. That's not 100% the case - this might be true that Wireless is indeed faster than a Wired solution for some reason, but I'm not willing to believe that based on what amounts to nothing other than Internet Gamer Say™. The absolute best result is the Gamer's Nexus test of a couple wireless Logitech mice vs a Wired DeathAdder, but the scope is so narrow, and being done under suspicious conditions (Setup by Logitech, at a Logitech marketing booth) that claiming that as a source of good data is ill-advised.

Alternatively, there are some truly goofy claims (To be fair, they probably meant 'thousands', not 'hundredths', but it still reads very funny):

Today, the difference in response time between most wired and wireless gaming mice comes down to wired winning by hundredths of a second, which is imperceptible to human reaction.

Canine Blues Arooo fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Sep 2, 2020

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




Now, how to market a PS/2 mouse's interrupt based protocol as better for gaming, so I can sell cable risers to gamers?

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

Some Goon posted:

Now, how to market a PS/2 mouse's interrupt based protocol as better for gaming, so I can sell cable risers to gamers?

I'm kind of unironically waiting for this to happen. I feel like whether or not it's actually useful, some minimalist PS/2 Mouse that costs $150 USD is going to show up on kickstarter eventually.

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




E: eh, not funny enough.

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

rtings publishes mouse test data although it's not that well documented. There are some inherent limitations when you're talking about measuring wireless mice because you're stuck with either measuring from physical actuation which is going to be hard to get enough precision on, or trying to set up measurement of electrical actuation, which is going to be hard to do in a way that is non-disruptive to the electronics since you want to include how long the physical and firmware debouncing takes in your measurement, but measuring that is probably going to interfere with the debouncing.

Nobody sane is saying a Viper Ultimate unplugged is faster than plugged in. But also, nobody sane is saying a Viper Ultimate unplugged isn't better than plugged in. You are giving up some minimal amount of latency, but the reality is that you're going to be a better player on wireless because not having the cord makes the mouse physically superior by a larger margin than the latency you lose. Also, for the most part the fastest-responding mice are the wireless mice since they're the top of the line big budget products with the most effort put into reducing response time, and what you lose from wireless is less than what you gain from the effort put into minimizing latency. Nobody says Glorious/Zowie/Steelseries mice are laggy pieces of poo poo, and they seem to be slower than the lightspeed/hyperspeed mice by any testing we can find.

Hippie Hedgehog
Feb 19, 2007

Ever cuddled a hedgehog?

malefactor posted:

I use a MX518

I still have mine and it still works so just quoting from the first page of the thread to laugh at people who bough inferior mice back in 2007 or so which didn't last.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


wolrah posted:

It is definitely possible for a wireless mouse to be faster than many or even most wired mice. It is physically and logically impossible for a wireless mouse to be faster than an equivalent wired mouse (or the same mouse in a wired mode, as is commonly supported these days).

I mean just think about it logically.

Mouse Sensor -> Mouse SoC -> USB -> PC
vvs.
Mouse Sensor -> Mouse SoC -> Wireless -> USB -> PC

If all else is equal, there is no way to remove latency by adding a step.

---

And yes, technically the speed of light in copper wiring is around 2/3 that of air, so as demonstrated by high-frequency traders it is possible for a wireless link to provide lower latency than a wired link. The thing is, that difference is around a half of a nanosecond per foot of cable, and doesn't account for whatever error correction is required to provide reliable connectivity. At the distances HFT users operate at it can still win, but not in anything resembling a normal desktop environment.

tl;dr: The claims of wireless being faster than wired are pure marketing deception at best.


FWIW Logitech claims right on their site that their Lightspeed mice like the 903, 703 and 603 have a 1ms response time wirelessly but they also claim the same response time wired. It's entirely possible for a wireless mouse to be faster than a wired mouse but it's not going to depend on the transport. It would be because the mouse itself is faster and the drivers are better programmed.

Hippie Hedgehog posted:

I still have mine and it still works so just quoting from the first page of the thread to laugh at people who bough inferior mice back in 2007 or so which didn't last.

I've still got mine too along with a G5 and G500. All three work great.
You can actually still buy the mx518 from Logitech's website.

GnarlyCharlie4u fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Sep 2, 2020

SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014



GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

You can actually still buy the mx518 from Logitech's website.

The MX518 of today is not the MX518 of yore. It is specifically new guts inside the old tooling.

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


SwissArmyDruid posted:

The MX518 of today is not the MX518 of yore. It is specifically new guts inside the old tooling.

ohhh this makes it more attractive.

Blue Footed Booby
Oct 4, 2006

got those happy feet




Slippery Tilde

GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

FWIW Logitech claims right on their site that their Lightspeed mice like the 903, 703 and 603 have a 1ms response time wirelessly but they also claim the same response time wired. It's entirely possible for a wireless mouse to be faster than a wired mouse but it's not going to depend on the transport. It would be because the mouse itself is faster and the drivers are better programmed.


I've still got mine too along with a G5 and G500. All three work great.
You can actually still buy the mx518 from Logitech's website.

I'm still using the G5 I bought to replace my MX510 when the right click stopped working. I plan to use the G5 till it breaks in a way I can figure out by taking it apart. Or I break it by taking it apart.

Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Sep 2, 2020

wolrah
May 8, 2006
what?


GnarlyCharlie4u posted:

FWIW Logitech claims right on their site that their Lightspeed mice like the 903, 703 and 603 have a 1ms response time wirelessly but they also claim the same response time wired. It's entirely possible for a wireless mouse to be faster than a wired mouse but it's not going to depend on the transport. It would be because the mouse itself is faster and the drivers are better programmed.
That's why I said all else being equal.

I have absolutely no doubt that the fastest wireless mice are faster than some or even most wired mice, but it's logically impossible for them to be faster than an otherwise technologically equivalent wired mouse.

The problem I have is that the marketing on these mice tries really hard to create the belief that they're faster than wired, full stop. See even the discussion upthread where multiple people indicated their understanding was that modern wireless was straight up better than a wire. That is absolutely not true. Wireless can certainly be close enough as to make no practical difference, but unless the wireless receiver were to be integrated in to the PC in such a way as to bypass the USB stack altogether it's always going to be adding an additional hop which means it adds latency.


Ynglaur posted:

I get that "all other things being equal" they won't... assuming you ignore cord drag. But in the real world things are rarely otherwise equal.
As for real world equal comparisons, at least all the modern Logitech high-end mice support wired and wireless modes. Not sure if Razer does the same, but they seem to have plenty of high-end wired offerings so if they don't then they probably still have models with comparable internals.

You of course make a valid point about cord drag aspect meaning that a modern wireless mouse with a negligible amount more latency than a wired equivalent could be better for a competitive gamer, but that's a different question than whether it's faster or has lower latency.

necrobobsledder
Mar 21, 2005
Lay down your soul to the gods rock 'n roll

Nap Ghost

For myself, I go with wireless mice because my cats like to chew on cords and I'm not about to train them to chase after things on my desk. That ruins my experience a lot more than input latency.

mewse
May 2, 2006




Canine Blues Arooo posted:

Yeah, I've heard this a lot too. I'm unable to find literally anyone providing an explanation with data though. It's mostly just claims and I'm somewhat convinced it's just claims being repeated over and over again. That's not 100% the case - this might be true that Wireless is indeed faster than a Wired solution for some reason, but I'm not willing to believe that based on what amounts to nothing other than Internet Gamer Say™. The absolute best result is the Gamer's Nexus test of a couple wireless Logitech mice vs a Wired DeathAdder, but the scope is so narrow, and being done under suspicious conditions (Setup by Logitech, at a Logitech marketing booth) that claiming that as a source of good data is ill-advised.

Alternatively, there are some truly goofy claims (To be fair, they probably meant 'thousands', not 'hundredths', but it still reads very funny):

Today, the difference in response time between most wired and wireless gaming mice comes down to wired winning by hundredths of a second, which is imperceptible to human reaction.

Forgive me for linking a LTT video but wireless gaming mice have been proven to have effective response times nowadays, on par or a millisecond slower than wired

Canine Blues Arooo
Jan 7, 2008

when you think about it...i'm the first girl you ever spent the night with



Grimey Drawer

mewse posted:

Forgive me for linking a LTT video but wireless gaming mice have been proven to have effective response times nowadays, on par or a millisecond slower than wired

This is much more believable than Wireless being half the latency of a Wired mouse because of Magic™.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010



I got tendonitis in my right forearm and using my Zowie EC1-A with my left hand wasn't very practical, so I decided to get an ambidextrous mouse. I figured I could use the same mouse later with my rightie as well (figured my EC1-A could have partially caused the tendonitis in the first place) so I got a Razer Viper. At first I didn't really like it since I'm used to palming bigger mice and the Viper isn't that big, but in a way I feel like the fact that it's smaller and lighter makes it easier to palm and click without strain. On the other hand, my EC1-A feels nicer to hold in a static position, but as soon as I need to move it or click with it, I can feel the very prominent hump driving into my palm and kind of straining my fingers.

It seems kind of counter-intuitive to me that a smaller mouse is easier to palm, but it looks like that's the case for me. I'm not entirely sure if I'll stick with the Razer Viper since I dislike the ambidextrous thing and it is pretty cramped for my fingers, so really I'd need a mouse with the EC1-A's length/width but with a lot less height. Maybe one of the newer Deathadders would strike a decent balance. Blog over

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





The rubber on the left side of my G502 finally collapsed like a slate cliffside after years of dutiful work, and it might've reached the point of too much discomfort. Part of me wants to just straight up buy a new 502, but I guess there's been progress made in the intervening years. Are there any mice out there that are super recommended with the same feel as the 502?

Edit: If it helps, I've found very little use for changing sens on the fly, while the free-scrolling mouse wheel has been great for a bunch of stuff. Mousefeel and freewheel are the most important factors.

Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Sep 9, 2020

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof


Black Griffon posted:

The rubber on the left side of my G502 finally collapsed like a slate cliffside after years of dutiful work, and it might've reached the point of too much discomfort. Part of me wants to just straight up buy a new 502, but I guess there's been progress made in the intervening years. Are there any mice out there that are super recommended with the same feel as the 502?

Edit: If it helps, I've found very little use for changing sens on the fly, while the free-scrolling mouse wheel has been great for a bunch of stuff. Mousefeel and freewheel are the most important factors.

Fwiw I just got a MX Master 3 and I like it.
It does not have the same feel as my G500. That thing is the best. But I am used to it now and I am loving the thumb wheel.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are.

You are destiny.





Not a bad price for a wireless compared to some offers, and that thumbwheel looks nice. Definitely on my shortlist!
Edit: also for further recommendations I guess it's obvious from the 502 that I'm gonna use this poo poo for gaming but I'll mention it just in case.

Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Sep 9, 2020

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Neurosis
Jun 10, 2003


Fallen Rib

Razer Basilisk has a shape that is pretty much a clone of the G502. New versions of it released recently.

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