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Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Are there any Gaming™ mice in the 50-80 euro budget for a somewhat large handed palm grip? I got a Logitech 502 and I like this mouse but I find myself reverting to an uncomfortable claw grip when doing tense movements in video games and stuff. I don't even feel like I have the largest hands but I guess growing up using a MX518 made me into a big mouse lover

edit: I've decided to check out Steelseries 300 since it's apparently pretty big

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Dec 12, 2017

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Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Yeah yeah I just need something to use Microsoft with

Anyway apparently the 300 is slightly bigger and cheaper than the 310, but the 310 has a better sensor.

Would I be wrong to assume that all the talk about "the sensor is at least 40% more precise!!!" is just marketing bullshit that doesn't really matter?

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

What color should I be displaying on my Steelseries 300 LEDs? I went with purple since I consider myself somewhat kingly but I think a neon green might be the best for frags

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

I ended up returning the Rival 300 and got an Zowie EC1-A instead. This mouse feels great. The only downside is the fact that there appears to be no software to fine tune the DPI, so I'm forced to use 800 DPI instead of my preferred 700.

Here's my question though: Has it actually been proven that putting your Windows mouse sensitivity to 5/11 from 6/11 fucks up your mouse movement somehow? A lot of people are saying that it does, but are doing a very bad job at proving it. I need my sensitivity a bit lower than 800 DPI for Windows browsing and RTS stuff. As far as I know, a most FPS games use raw mouse input anyway.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 22, 2017

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

emdash posted:

yes http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/Mouse_settings#Windows_Sensitivity >6/11 skips pixels

if you can enable raw input, that's a solution as well

Yeah, more than 6 skips pixels. It isn't really clear whether less than 6 does. I assume the talk about "non-integer" multiplier not influencing accuracy means sensitivity values less than 1.0, so anything below 6/11 would be fine.

Heavy Metal posted:

Are there any other good gaming mice that have that style of middle mouse button (the scroll wheel button)? So it's not low and sunken in feeling? And in general I'm good with just the two buttons on the left side, and don't need more than 1200 DPI. Also like wired. I agree the Razer synapse program is dumb though, and I know Razers can mess up, I've just had good luck and really dig the design.

One of the reasons I picked up an EC1-A was to get a more pronounced middle mouse button, similar to a Deathadder. The ergonomics are similar to a Deathadder too, it's just slightly bigger near the palm area.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

I got tendonitis in my right forearm and using my Zowie EC1-A with my left hand wasn't very practical, so I decided to get an ambidextrous mouse. I figured I could use the same mouse later with my rightie as well (figured my EC1-A could have partially caused the tendonitis in the first place) so I got a Razer Viper. At first I didn't really like it since I'm used to palming bigger mice and the Viper isn't that big, but in a way I feel like the fact that it's smaller and lighter makes it easier to palm and click without strain. On the other hand, my EC1-A feels nicer to hold in a static position, but as soon as I need to move it or click with it, I can feel the very prominent hump driving into my palm and kind of straining my fingers.

It seems kind of counter-intuitive to me that a smaller mouse is easier to palm, but it looks like that's the case for me. I'm not entirely sure if I'll stick with the Razer Viper since I dislike the ambidextrous thing and it is pretty cramped for my fingers, so really I'd need a mouse with the EC1-A's length/width but with a lot less height. Maybe one of the newer Deathadders would strike a decent balance. Blog over

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

This is a bit of a long shot, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend me a mouse based on some fairly specific ergonomic needs. I've been using a Zowie EC1A, but I'm trying to move away from it since the heavy clicks and prominent hump are straining my forearm. I'm planning to use the mouse primarily for basic internet browsing + strategy game stuff. So what I need is a mouse with

- fairly decent width and length for my ~19cm hand size
- toned-down hump or generally low profile (easy to palm with the whole hand)
- very light buttons
- preferably right-handed asymmetrical and light

So far, I've tried a bunch of mice but so far each one fails at something. Some mice I did like were the Razer Viper and Sensei Ten, though they're both symmetrical, and in the case of the Viper, a little too small. I think the FK1 could also work, but it's also symmetrical and it has heavy clicks like all Zowie mice. I also liked holding the G502, but it has dumbass gamer buttons in awkward places and it has that weird thumb shelf thing.

I did order a G403 to see if it has similar ergonomics to the G502 but without the gamer buttons, but I'm out of ideas if that doesn't work out. I guess I could cut my losses and get one of the decent symmetrical mice. The Sensei Ten did feel good, but the Rocket Jump Ninja guy thinks it's bad so I don't know.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

SalTheBard posted:

As I was reading your post I was thinking "Razer Viper" then I saw you didn't like the Viper. It's what I've been using, I have big hands and love it.

I had one for a while and I liked using it, but I figured I might find something like it, only right-handed asymmetrical and with a bit more surface area. However, it's not looking like I'll find anything better, so it's likely I'll just get a Viper (again). I guess it won't be so bad since the mouse being small doesn't really hurt while I do casual internet browsing, and I can always use the EC1-A if I need a bulkier mouse for more intense use.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

funkymonks posted:

I also really hate mice that are tall or have a huge hump. I use a Razer Lancehead but it is symmetrical too.

Yeah that looks good, and I assume it has those lighter Razer clicks too. Might get one unless I find a similar one that is also asymmetrical.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

It occurred to me that maybe there should be a FAQ here for buying mice. At least if I had known what I know now, I wouldn't have had to try out a bunch of mice over the years before arriving at what works for me (for now). Some stuff I've learned:

- grabbing mice at a store isn't a good way to figure out if they work well for you, it usually takes a couple of hours of use at least, and maybe even days of use to really know for sure. Hence, you should figure out the general shape that works for you and buy derivatives of that
- related to the last point, big heavy mice can be nice to hold at the store, but may strain your hand more than a smaller, lighter mouse in the long run, though this is anecdotal and could vary. I think you're still better off picking a smaller mouse at first and working your way up to what's more comfortable. I've been using a small, 8 dollar Logitech mouse for a while, and though it is a little small for me, it still feels easier to grip and use than my EC1-A at the moment.
- "ergonomic" gamer mice aren't necessarily ergonomic at all, and a more basic shape can fit your hand better
- Rocket Jump Ninja guy's reviews are helpful, but often misleading. For example, he says you can't palm grip certain mice with a medium sized hand, but I can palm them just fine with my fairly large one. Maybe he's talking about quake flick shots specifically in regards to that.
- buttons are important, but more in the sense that you should be able to press them for thousands of times and still have a hand afterwards. some Zowie mice (EC1-A mainly) seem to have really heavy M1 and M2 buttons, while something like the Steelseries 310 (iirc) has a really tough middle mouse button, both of which were straining to use for me. It could be my weak nerd hands (though I do lift) but I vastly prefer Razer's very light mouse clicks. It sucks when mouse buttons fail, but for a professional computer toucher like myself, I'd rather have occasionally failing buttons than compromise on something else

I wouldn't want to make the thread myself is because 90% of this is anecdotal and I don't know if it matches what other people have experienced, though

Edit: Holy moly I just grabbed my old Deathadder from 8 years ago and I have no idea how I managed to use this thing for like 4 years. The hump is so god drat aggressive it immediately forces my hand into a very uncomfortable claw grip

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Oct 10, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Just in case anyone might find the comparison interesting, I've been using the Zowie S1 and Razer Viper (and my old EC1-A) side-by-side, since I figured I'd settle on one of them. My hand is, I believe, 19.5cm long and probably like 10cm wide, and I typically palm grip my mice with the top part of my palm (I'm not sure if this technique has its own name, so I drew it on this comparison sheet)

The Zowie S1 is overall bigger and bulkier. It feels a little heavier to maneuver around the mouse pad due to its weight, though it's still a light mouse. Its size feels more reassuring for me, but the shape feels just a little bit off. The back of the mouse is quite wide and square-shaped, which causes my grip to mostly fall on that. This is contrary to the Viper's shape, which does a better job at accommodating the surface area of my hand. It isn't uncomfortable to grip the mouse, but it seems like an unnecessary feature to add to the shape, and it makes it a little harder to lift and move the mouse around. The older EC1-A has a more streamlined shape in comparison, and allows for a more balanced grip than the Zowie S1. The buttons on the Zowie S1 don't feel quite as good as the Viper's, but they are probably a bit better than the EC1-A's.

The Razer Viper's shape is probably the best I've encountered so far. The hump is subtle and situated on the middle, so my fingers can rest on top of the buttons and press down on them without having to "claw" at them. This might be the only mouse I've held that lets my hand stay in its resting state on top of it and still use it without issues. I only wish the mouse was just a little bit bigger. My palm hangs off just a little off the back, rather than really resting on it, though this isn't really an issue. I can still grip it with comfort. The buttons and mouse wheel on the Viper feel great, only a bit better than the Zowie ones though. The mouse's texture is more of a rough plastic compared to the Zowie's very smooth finish. I prefer the rough plastic feel myself.

I'm not sure which mouse would have an advantage in hardcore twitch FPS gaming since I'm still recovering from tendonitis and I don't want to trouble my hand too much. I think I might be more comfortable with the S1 since it's a little bigger, but at that point I'd probably rather just take my old EC1-A instead. For the stuff I typically do, which is clicking wikipedia links and playing RTS/4x games, the Viper seems more comfortable, so that's probably the one I'll stick with. Plus, it's ambidextrous so I can use it with my leftie when I want to rest my right hand. I only wish it was just a little bit bigger. Perhaps some day they'll make one and I'll pass the Viper onto my friend who has trump hands. Although I like the Viper more, the S1 is still one of the better mice I've tried.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Oct 11, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Diabetes Forecast posted:

this is a bit of a strange thing to ask, but what are some mice with a middle wheel that takes less effort to push down, or perhaps have the scroll wheel closer to the front of the mouse? I'm still on my hunt for something that might ease my hand pain, and now after trying the Contour Mouse I'm realizing moving the scroll wheel off the top my not have been the aha-moment I hoped it would be. (The little bottom rocker on it is ingenious though, I wish more mice had something like this!) I'm even considering possibly trying the weird Penguin vertical mouse, but the reviews on build quality make me wary of the thing. so I'm looking at other possible ideas.

Also, hopefully something without these insanely slippery plastic surfaces newer mice seem absolutely ADAMANT to use. My hand pain gets worse because of how hard it is to grip these things. I'm literally using an Abyssus as my go-to because it doesn't have the awful finish others do and I can hold it firmly with my palm, but of course the wheel is abysmal to use.

It's a gamer mouse, but The Razer Viper gets recommended a lot in this thread. I'm a bit of a stickler about the middle mouse button as well (since I tend to play RTS games where I use it to drag scroll), and I've ditched mice like the Rival 300 because it had a bad middle mouse button. The Viper's mouse wheel button is probably the best I've encountered. It's easy to push down and has a nice snap to it. The mouse also has a rough texture on the top and some rubber grips on the sides. It's also very light, which might help with your problems.

https://gearsearch.gg/shape?Razer=Abyssus%20Essential&Razer=Viper%20Ultimate

Looking at the shape comparison, the hump is much more in the middle on the Viper, which may take some getting used to, but I think a middle hump is much better for your grip in general since, at least for me, it lets me grip the mouse with a lot more surface area than a back hump does. I'd wager the wheel is easier to reach when it's that close to the hump as well.

You might also want to see a physical therapist about this stuff, because at least my guy tipped me off that these problems are sometimes not as much about ergonomics as they are about weak muscles in your hand/forearm. Some exercises might help strengthen those muscles so they don't get sore as easily. If it's more like a carpal tunnel thing then the advice I've heard is to lower your sensitivity so that you can move your mouse around with your entire arm instead of just your wrist (which is good advice for video games too)

Fauxtool posted:

mx master 3 has even better scroll wheels but at nearly double the price. Totally worth it IMO
https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Mas...N8D0SMH5TY04QZX
I haven't tried this mouse specifically, and this comes down to personal preference, but I think these heavy, tall mice are kinda awful for hand pain and they promote a bad kind of grip. I don't think you should ever be "squeezing" your mouse when you grip it. What generally works for me is having my hand in its resting position, then laying it on the mouse and lightly gripping it mostly from the sides and top with the top half of my palm and my fingers. That way I barely even have to grip my mouse to move it, and it's more like I'm just moving my hand around. I don't think the lower half of your palm should even be a point of grip on your mouse. Most of these ergo mice don't even let you do that because they have these big rear end humps, and they instead drive you more towards some kind of claw grip, hence why I prefer low-profile, lightweight mice now. That said, that's just where I've landed personally in terms of grip so it may not work for everyone.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Oct 13, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Diabetes Forecast posted:

I've absolutely tried the MX Master, and I definitely did not have a good experience with it. it has a super awkward shape and it has my least favorite design feature, the 'ergonomic' thumb slot. those things are the most uncomfortable nightmares ever when you need to splay your thumb out, because yoiu kinda just can't with the giant lower plastic piece in the way.

Bizarrely, that Razer Viper looks like it might be good, so long as the middle wheel doesn't take alot of force to actually push down for the middle click. it looks like a good shape, and I'm assuming it's fairly light too. failing that I'll go in search of weird shaped mice again.

Yeah I feel like most of these "ergo" shape features are anything but ergonomic. At least my hand takes a very shallow cup shape if I rest it on the table, which is more or less the shape of these low-profile gaming mice, so that's what's ergonomic for me. I wouldn't go straight for weird mice if the first normal shaped mouse you try doesn't work out for you. Even a small difference in shape makes a big difference in the grip, so if the Viper doesn't feel quite right, some other similar mouse might. For me personally, the Zowie FK1+ feels just a little awkward, even though it's basically the same shape and size as the Viper. Really, you kind of just have to hold a bunch of mice to know for sure. But I don't think the shape is that important since eventually your hand will probably get used to it, provided it's close enough.

But anyway, unrelated to this, I played Overwatch for the first time in ages, using my Viper for FPS stuff for the first time, and it turns out it's more or less the perfect size for me in that regard. I had been thinking it's a little too small for me in normal desktop use, but in FPS stuff it feels exactly right since it has just that tiny bit of extra room to move inside my palm for fine aim adjustments and stuff like that. So yeah I'm set for esports now

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Oct 14, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Diabetes Forecast posted:

Having to return the Viper. It's back-end sits way too low to the surface and my fingers are sliding across my desk due to the stupid side divots. attempting to buy an old Steelseries Ikari to see if I can get relief with a shape that accounts for finger placement better.

The Viper has its sides designed like that because you aren't supposed to rest your fingers on them, but use them to grip the mouse when doing epic FPS twitch shooting. Admittedly that doesn't help much for work stuff, but I don't see it hurting it much either. My fingers and lower palm also tend to brush across my mousepad when I relax my grip, but that has happened with all the mice I've owned.

Anyway, the Steelseries Sensei Ten has a similar shape to the Viper, only a bit bigger and wider around the back, so that might feel better to use. No side finger rests, though. Maybe you do want a special ergo mouse if you really don't want your fingers to touch your desk.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 17, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

To continue my mouse blogging, it turns out low-profile mice like the Viper aren't that great for dotalike stuff. Shooter games usually warrant a looser, finger-based grip until you momentarily tense up to shoot, which is what these mice are great for, whereas games like HotS and Dota require you to constantly keep a fairly firm grip while also drag scrolling and spamming right click for long periods of time, which you can't really do when your fingers are also gripping the mouse. This seems specific to this genre though, since I can play other RTS games with the same mouse just fine. I'd consider getting a different type of mouse that allows for more of a palm-focused grip like the G502 or G403 for moba stuff, but I hardly play these games anymore so I probably won't. Maybe pointing that out will help someone else, though.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 22, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Fauxtool posted:

a safe bet is to use what the pros are using. The low claw grips like viper, rival 300 and g pro wireless are heavily represented in pro dota especially among carry players. The death adder is probably the most used mouse overall in the pro moba scene but its almost always by players sponsored by Razer and they sponsor a full third of teams it seems

I can't actually find the latest data on what the dota pros are using. I believe most of them just use whatever they're sponsored to use. I think Deathadder is overrepresented because of Razer's aggressive marketing of it, and because it became kind of like a meme as well. In hindsight I think the Deathadder is quite awful in terms of shape and size, even though I used one for like 4 years.

I don't have any data to back this up but I feel like Dota is one of the few games where having a bigger mouse is the best. Maybe not a gigantic mouse like the EC1 or the Deathadder, but something bigger than the FK1 derivatives that have become ubiquitous for FPS stuff. Also I tried the Rival 300 for Dota 2 sometime in 2017 and I found that it's middle mouse button placement makes it next to impossible to drag scroll comfortably, so that's not really a good option for dota in my opinion.

Actually now I kinda wanna blow another 50 yuros on a more comfy RTS mouse, something with G502's shape but reduced weight. I'd still keep the Viper for FPS, light desktop use and left-handed use.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

K8.0 posted:

Another nice thing is ergo - a lot of the top mice are small and especially low height, which can really help your wrist feel better.

It's kind of interesting that it took like 7 years for everyone to realize that "hold on, why bother with these weird asymmetrical gamer shapes when that basic office mouse shape works best", with basically everyone copying and riffing off the FK1's shape now.

Anyway, my issues with the Viper's size got a lot more obvious while playing more RTS stuff today. I can't quite grip and move the mouse properly while doing a lot of drag scrolling and alternating m1-m2 clicking, and it feels a little fiddly. Feels kind of sad because I like the mouse a lot otherwise, especially for FPS. I've decided to order the DM1 FPS on a hunch, seeing as it's basically the same shape with a teensy bit more height and a wider butt, which is what I felt the Viper was missing. I only hope the switches won't be too stiff, though I've gotten used to the EC1's so they can't be that bad. I also thought about getting a GPW, but I don't think I want to pay 120 euros for a gaming mouse and possibly deal with double-clicking issues later.

If the DM1 FPS can't pull double-duty with FPS and RTS then I'll probably have to go on an all-new hunt to find a cheap RTS/moba/high-apm-work mouse. If anyone happens to know a cheap-ish mouse with a shape similar to the G502 but without its heavy weight, awkward gamer buttons or double-click issues, do reply to me!!

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Oct 25, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

CaptainPsyko posted:

This website is amazing how have I not seen it before.

Sadly, my beloved Logitech G700s isn't here so I can't use it to figure out what the closest thing in the world to that is. :(

Logitech G603 or a G403 seem like fairly close analogues to it, but I wouldn't hesitate to try other stuff too. A lot of people have gotten used to mice that are too big/tall for them. For me specifically, any mice with a tall hump (usually mice over 4.0cm in height) tend to strain my arm after longer sessions.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Oct 26, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

The DM1 FPS arrived. Seeing as no one in this thread has really talked about it before, I figured I'd post about it. Admittedly it's a little easier to palm than the Viper thanks to its size and hump position, but overall the shape doesn't seem that great. There's a lot of aggressive, clunky angles throughout the mouse that make it hard to move my fingers around. Holding it after holding the Razer Viper makes this especially prominent, since the Viper does an excellent job at accommodating my fingers despite its similar shape. The buttons are also pretty stiff with a lot of travel time. The middle mouse button is difficult to press while palming the mouse due to the button's position. At least the side buttons are surprisingly good. Probably not a bad mouse, especially for the price, but I bought it explicitly for ergonomics and it's not better than the Viper in regards to them.

Anyway, my arm has recovered enough that using mice has become easier in general, so my current mice don't feel nearly as awkward as before. I'm probably going to stick to swapping between my new Razer Viper and my old EC1 for now. Maybe if Razer comes out with a Razer Viper XL or Logitech makes a GPW that doesn't have its QA issues then I'll get one of those. Hopefully this will be the end of this mouse hunt saga.

Edit: Oh my Razer Viper has button wobble and some vertical rattle now. Welp. It doesn't really hamper the mouse's use (yet), but it is annoying. Doesn't this mean I can return the mouse at any time and get a full refund now in the EU? I figure I might as well keep using it unless something better comes up.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Oct 30, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Roumba posted:

I have a similar wish for a wide ring finger and pinkie shelf so they can stay mostly in plane with my pointer and middle while not sliding on the mouse pad. I swear mice are designed for tiny people or creatures with only 3 or 4 fingers on each hand. I'm not exactly a giant (6'1" 155lb)185cm 72kg I think? but drat.

In the gaming sphere, you would basically need a very tall ergo mouse like the EC1 (very big) or maybe a Glorious Model D (somewhat smaller) to rest your entire hand with all its fingers on it. Though I'd maybe rather use the FK1+-B since it's very long and wide, but still has a low profile, so it's more comfortable to actually rest your hand on it when you do. That said, both the EC1 and FK1 have felt unnecessarily bulky for me, even as a 6'3 dude and with some fairly large hands.

As far as I know, most gaming mice now are designed in such a way that when you are aiming, you'll raise your palm slightly, tense your hand and actively grip the mouse with your ring finger and thumb while your pinky mostly hangs off the side. Gaming mice are often smaller so that there is a bit of flex space for the mouse to move inside your palm for pinpoint aiming and such. These design choices make a lot of sense when you're going for flick headshots and sniping and so on, but if you're lazily moving your mouse around while working then yeah, your fingers will probably drag across your mousepad. It personally doesn't bother me, and in fact I still end up coming back to the smaller and lighter Razer Viper for work stuff even after using bigger mice. I think once you get out of wanting to full-on gorilla palm grip every mouse, smaller mice start to make a lot more sense. With the Viper specifically, I can grip it in a ton of different ways while swapping hands to reduce strain, thanks to its light, nimble and asymmetrical design, whereas something like the EC1 only really accommodates a right-handed palm grip.

Diabetes Forecast posted:

Yes, exactly. I've been trying to swap my hand placement but splaying my hands too far doesn't work too well. It's really bizarre how wide mice just aren't really a thing anymore, atleast not like the 2000s era experimental shapes.

I think if your fingers dragging across your mouse surface feels like a problem, I'd say that's more of a problem with your mousepad or your hand than the mouse. I've been using my mouse for like 10 hours a day since forever, and my fingers drag across my mousepad all the time, and it has never been a problem for me. If your pinky finger is abnormally sore then you might just want to cover it with something when you work. A lot of your ergonomic issues might also go away with some type of physical therapy. Doing wrist exercises helped me when I had tendonitis and every mouse gave me hand pain.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

K8.0 posted:

A good post. Seriously, if you are having pain while mousing, the first place to look is not the mouse, but how you're using it. Elbow and especially wrist angle, utilization of large vs small muscles, grip tightness, seating posture, these things are probably where your pain is coming from.

Do not do dumb poo poo and gently caress up your hands while searching for a mouse that lets you get away with it. You will regret it for the rest of your life, and most of us probably aren't that old yet.

My physical therapist said that for the most part poor ergonomics aren't inherently too dangerous, since they'll typically only cause you to use more of your muscles while working, and that will only hurt you if those muscles are weak. I called him out on this a bit since that seemed incredibly stupid to me, but after he clarified a bit, I do see his point about how to primarily approach these issues. If you find yourself seeking increasingly specific ergonomics (like I did), then it's more likely your problems are fixed with weight training than improving workplace ergonomics. He said that although good ergonomics are always better, you shouldn't be afraid outright afraid of working with poor ergonomics or using your muscles while working, because that will typically only hamper your recovery and cause more issues for you down the line.

Still, good ergonomics are important, but I'd say the only stuff that absolutely matters is stuff that causes carpal tunnel, which is notably not a matter of muscle strength nor (relatively) easily solved. As long as your muscle strength is up to par, everything else is supposedly more or less for comfort and to improve the amount of time you can spend working. So yeah, make sure your wrist position is good, and make sure you're primarily using your mouse with your arm, not your wrist.

redreader posted:

So if I want a basic normal gaming mouse should I just look at what razer has to offer? Can someone name a couple of recommended mouse make+models for fps'ing please? Not super pro elite, just, gaming fps mouse.

I like to reply to every post in this thread with "try the Razer Viper" so here I go recommending the Razer Viper again. The ambidextrous low-profile shape might feel weird if you're coming from big ergo mice, but it should grow on you fairly quickly. Most top gaming mice use a similar shape since it just works very well. This shape is used also by the Glorious Model O and FK1-B, though I prefer the Viper because it's very light without hole technology, it has a better texture and buttons than the FK-1B and it has optical switches that shouldn't fail. There's also Logitech GPW, which is extremely popular among esports people, though it usually develops double clicking issues within months, and its shape and build quality are more divisive. If you absolutely want an asymmetrical ergo mouse for whatever reason, then check out the Glorious Model D. Also, don't make the mistake of using a bigger mouse than you need to. The smallest and lightest a mouse that you can comfortably use is pretty much always going to be better.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Nov 15, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

ijyt posted:

Wait, Razer are being recommended now? I thought their QC was notoriously bad. The one time I tried a wireless mouse of theirs (granted, this was years ago) it developed a squeak and faulty mouse wheel in the first week.

I'm not sure Razer has gotten any better in general, but the Viper seems to be mostly fine. There's usually some light m1/m2 button wobble, probably because they wanted looser buttons for lighter presses, but it's rarely bad enough to actually be a problem. It helps that the mouse has optical switches so you don't really have to worry about getting double-clicking issues like other mice.

The mouse market is also kind of funky now. A lot of mouse manufacturers seem to now be suffering from QC issues to the point that Razer doesn't seem that bad. At least the Viper's issues are mostly benign.

ijyt posted:

So you’re saying I should tighten my claw grip on my current mouse, man that sucks to hear.

I might be a dumbass consumer but I'll take hyper-light modern mice over the old ergo bricks, bad quality control or not. But maybe I only feel like that because I know I can get a full refund on my Viper at any time because my copy has a slightly-less-than-cosmetic wobble issue

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Nov 15, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Xaris posted:

Also the Logitechs support seems to have massively gone downhill and the RMA process when I first tried was laughably awful holy hell. They wanted me to have a hand-written note with the serial number, next to the mouse also showing the serial number, and then have me take a video using my phone of me clicking my mouse on this one github site that measures double-clicks.

I'm thinking the reason QC and customer support has gone down in general is because most people aren't going to bother with this stuff and will rather just buy a new mouse. Although at least in my country, consumers are protected well enough that typically you can just return the mouse directly to the store you bought it from and they have to honor the return because of the EU-mandated 2 year warranty thing.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Klyith posted:

The ergo advantage is that you aren't moving your hand or wrist, because that's bad for you. The way the shape tilts your hand & wrist over from horizontal means that your arm tends to elevate, because the wrist hinge isn't aligned to the table anymore. Letting your arm get lazy doesn't make your hand tilt up, it makes your hand slide down and rest on its side. Again, it keeps the wrist in a more neutral position.

I guess that makes sense, although I'm not sure how effective that is in practice. I did put a bit of a disclaimer how flat mice are a personal preference for me, and it's likely my understanding of ergo mice has been somewhat ruined by using one that's too big for me for the past 3 years or so. That said, for now I like having my entire hand, forearm and fingers perfectly level. I did get an adjustable desk and set it quite low to make sure I can maintain these ergonomics. I would assume a lighter and smaller mouse might help you maintain "good form" more easily, and thus keep long-term problems away since you don't need to use nearly as much force to manipulate it, but I don't know. Although carpal tunnel hasn't been a problem for me yet, but I can't say it never will either, so I can't really argue that point in any way.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

ijyt posted:

Are there any shells for the Glorious mice without the dumb holes?

The Glorious Model O and Model D shells themselves are essentially copies of Zowie FK and EC shells respectively, though I'm not sure if that helps with what you're asking

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

If anyone happens to have a Glorious Model D, could you tell me how the middle mouse button on it feels? There's a sale for it and I'm thinking of getting one for dotalikes because fully relaxed palm grip is basically mandatory for them, and my usual FPS mouse can't really do that very well. The middle mouse button should be really easy and snappy to press since I love to use that button for drag scrolling, so it's a dealbreaker if the mouse has a bad one. I'm currently using an old EC1 right now, but it's a little busted up and heavy.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Fingat posted:

I just bought a second one as the first I got was from the first run and had a few build quality issues that started to annoy me. The new one fixed all the issues but the wheel press is pretty tight and doesn't have much travel space so it feels a bit harder to press compared to the first one which was snappier. This didn't annoy me as much since I only use mmb occasionally.

That's disappointing. I might still get one and rebind drag scroll to mouse 4 instead. The EC1 feels so antiquated after getting used to the Viper, and I think the Model D's slightly smaller size would fit me better anyway.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Dec 22, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

I think I might check out the G-Wolves Sköll instead, though again, not sure how great the middle mouse button is on it. Some guy on reddit says it's light to press, though. Maybe the person above me could check it out as well, seeing as it's another EC2 style mouse. I'll be sure to report on how it is if I do get one. I thought the Xtrfy M4 looked interesting too, but I don't typically like back-hump style designs so I'm not as excited about that.

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Fingat posted:

I tried a skoll a year ago but can't remember how the wheel was, sorry. The holes on sides were too annoying to me to keep it.

Annoying how? Just the texture made it hard to grip, or what?

I feel like the Model D might still work out best for me, so I'm guessing I should just order a bunch of the EC clones at once and just return the ones I don't like. The RMA process is kind of annoying but I guess I would only have to bear it once this way. Funny enough, I feel like I don't really even need a new mouse to replace the EC1, but now I'm kind of addicted to trying new ones out for fun, just for a tiny bit of extra comfort and speed. I'm going to be known as the weird mouse guy in my area

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Dec 26, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Anti-Hero posted:

My Wireless O came in and after a day of using it I find it....OK? It's my first ambi mouse I've had in forever coming from a Mionix Castor (just died) and a Logitech G400 (old and heavy), and so I'm having a little difficulty in adjusting to it. Like I really really want to rest my ring and pinky finger on some part of the shell . The thread suggested earlier I look for an EC clone like a Model D and I might order one and return whichever I don't like.

I think it depends on what you're using it for. My Viper seems very natural for FPS stuff, like it felt weird at first but it eventually taught me a different kind of grip for FPS games specifically that made it easier to play them. Basically, applying a tight finger grip when aiming and relaxing the hand entirely when not. These mice aren't really made for any kind of chill games where you just want to rest your hand and click at stuff. I have to use my old EC1 for RTS and moba stuff because you're basically required to hold your hand in a static palm grip position a long time and click stuff constantly, which quickly gets straining with a small ambi mouse.

Right now I'm also using my Viper for desktop browsing stuff because it's light and easy to manipulate with minimal effort, and because I can swap hands occasionally.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Dec 28, 2020

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Dominoes posted:

Hey bros. I want to buy a lightweight wireless mouse. The G pro gets great reviews. It's been out of stock every time I've checked for the past year. Alternatives?

Model O Wireless and Razer Viper Ultimate, though they have a different shape

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

I got the G-Wolves Sköll and Glorious Model D in the mail today. I also got the Model D-, but it is definitely too small for my ~19.5cm sized hand. I'll write some stuff here about the two other mice, partially for myself in an exercise of rubber ducking which mouse I want to keep

The shape on both of the mice are indeed like the EC, though neither is an exact copy of it. It feels like the Sköll is closer to the original EC design though, since it pushes more into your palm like the EC1, but in a way that feels better. The Model D has a thinner and more accommodating shape for different grip styles and it feels a bit longer. The Model D feels more like it has that FPS-mouse style "let your fingers move around" shaping that ambi mice typically have, while the Sköll prefers a steady palm grip. It's a subtle difference that probably no one cares about except me. I think shape-wise I prefer the Sköll right now since I'm looking to play RTS and dotalikes, and that's what the Sköll seems more geared towards. It also feels like I can more comfortably relax my hand when I grip the Sköll. The Model D feels more like a compromise between a true sweaty FPS gaming mouse (like Razer Viper) and comfy work/RTS mouse, which can also be a good thing if that's what you're looking for.

The buttons on both mice feel a bit squishy, but they're not outright bad. The side buttons on the Model D have that EC-like squish, while the Sköll's side buttons have a good and pronounced click. The middle mouse button is decent on both mice. The scroll wheel feels a bit better on the Sköll, though neither mouse has a really great one like the Viper. I was afraid the DPI change button would get in the way on the Model D, but it luckily doesn't. I'm a little sad that both mice have the middle mouse button placed a bit too far behind for my hand size, while the EC1 got it down perfectly.

No rattle or flex on either of the mice. They feel better built than the Viper.

The default feet feel like they actively grind against my extremely esports Zowie G-SR mousepad, especially on the Sköll. Maybe they're just too new.

The hole technology is definitely more noticeable on the Sköll since the holes are on the sides too, but that's not really a bad thing. Feels kind of weird to be looking directly at circuitry, though.

Pretty obnoxious RGB lighting on both mice, but it's more flamboyant on the Model D which also comes with that "glorious PC gamer" meme stapled onto its side. Minus 10 points for that poo poo.

This isn't a final review of any kind because you can't really grade a mouse with like 50 minutes of testing, and the mice are very similar and seem to be among the best ergo mice available right now, so I really have to be splitting hairs to find something to talk about. The main reason I obsess this much over this stuff is because my weirdly hosed up hand seemingly has different ergonomic requirements every week or so. Anyway if anyone has any questions about these mice specifically then fire away!!!

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 2, 2021

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Not a Children posted:

The razer salmosa I bought off of woot for $13 in 2009 finally died. What’s the closest thing I can get now?

I'd probably get a Razer Viper Mini like that other poster recommended. There's very little that can go with that mouse, as long as you get one that doesn't have creaky/flimsy mouse buttons that some Vipers have (you can always RMA for a new one if yours turns out like that). The shape is a little different, but it's a very good one if you can get used to it. I like the original Razer Viper myself as a big hand semi-palmer though

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 06:14 on May 16, 2021

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

SalTheBard posted:

I have bigger hands and while the Viper is totally acceptable, everytime I go to Micro Center the Deathadder is the one I love.

I have big hands and I feel like Razer Viper is one of the few mice that I can actually comfortably use, funny enough. Even though I used a Razer Deathadder years ago, there's no way I could go back to using one nowadays. Something about these big humpy ergo mice just grinds against my palm and my wrist, whereas I can just lay my hand down on the Viper and shape fits my hand perfectly.

I do wish the Razer Viper was just a hair bigger though. It seems like only Zowie cares about cornering the shape/size market by putting out a bunch of variants with slightly different sizes. I'd have personally loved a Razer Viper+, for example.

I see they put out a new Razer Viper v2 that seems to be a stripped-down Viper Ultimate with 20% less weight and 50% more price. I guess less weight is cool but I was expecting more. I wonder if the build quality is any better, since my current Razer Viper has always been kinda creaky and rattly

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Jul 7, 2022

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

My Razer Viper has finally started breaking down. I'd like to get that Razer Viper V2 Pro to replace it but it's still like 160 euros here. Rip

Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

The Viper V2 is still €150, huh? The middle mouse button on my old Viper finally died for good and I've been meaning to get something with the same shape. Is the Viper V2 worth it at all or should I just get an Ultimate for half the price?

edit: apparently the Viper V2 and the older Vipers aren't even the same shape? From what I'm reading, the Ultimate is a bit beefier in the back.

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 24, 2023

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Minorkos
Feb 20, 2010

Got the Viper V2 since my old mouse finally disintegrated. The build quality seems much better than the old generation of Viper at least. The buttons feel much stiffer but it's probably because I'm so used to my old Viper that was worn out as poo poo

Edit: it's nice that the side buttons are actually usable this time around

Minorkos fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 27, 2023

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