Should I buy a $100 mouse?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Should I buy a $100 mouse?

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

That Zowie AM doesn't look too bad, though after using the Roccat Kova+ I'd be a little hesitant about trying another mouse with tiny little side buttons. My pinky is just not talented enough to make hitting those small buttons convenient, which is why I prefer having the big flippers of the Kana, even if I end up with less buttons overall.

Zowie is excellent. I've been using an EC-1 Evo for about a month and it's one of the very best mice I've ever owned for gaming or anything.

For gaming (specifically FPSes) You can't go wrong as long as your model of choice is equipped with an Avago 3090 sensor. No prediction, no inherent acceleration, dead accurate. It's good stuff - if your mouse of choice meets your comfort and mapping demands as well, you'll be set.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2013 23:23

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 08:40

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Availability is indeed limited for North Americans, I found mine on a single retailer in Canada with a lot of bad Yelp reviews, but it was $49 dollars previous to shipping and tax (with a forum-confirmed shady $20 dollar rebate I didn't send in in favor of wanting to possibly cash in the warranty some day), a mouse this good doesn't get cheaper than that!

The G400 is actually Logitech's current most suitable offering for FPS accuracy because it uses the Avago 3090, but the entire rest of their line is saddled with the inferior 9500 & 9800 (ones with nasty built-in acceleration). I stress that this is only a "problem" if you're a serious FPS accuracy hound, but if you are the difference between these sensors is profound.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2013 02:24

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Gwyrgyn Blood posted:

That's pretty cool stuff, I might give the Zowie FK a shot the next time I end up picking up a mouse. Hows the stiffness on the side buttons and mouse wheel?

The button switches are excellent all over. Literally the only change I'd make to improve the mouse is give it the wheel of a Logitech G500, but that's simply because it's basically the best wheel ever.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2013 07:04

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

calandryll posted:

I recently upgraded to Windows 8 and my G500 has been acting funky. Just yesterday, if I have it set to all three under the setting, not all three light up. Playing in Borderlands 2, it will sometimes start freaking out. It was working fine last week on Windows 7 install. Could it be the Logitech software? I installed a the latest version of the gaming software when I installed Win8.

It very well could be. You can actually run a G500 at fully functionality without the Logitech driver if you've set it up previously, because it'll keep all your previous settings stored onboard the mouse itself. You'll need to reinstall said drivers to make any changes, however.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2013 20:47

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

SHISHKABOB posted:

Do all expensive mice wear out after a year and a half of using them, or did I just get unlucky with my Logitech G500. I got it as a christmas present, so there wasn't really much shopping around done, but now it's double clicking like crazy and barely usable.

Are there any nice and durable mice out there, or are they all designed to stop working after a while?

I've owned like 10 Logitechs over the years, and with heavy use their MB1 or wheel eventually crap out somehow. I keep getting them because their warranty is insanely awesome, there's no harm in calling their number and trying. unless they've changed their policies in the last year, the criteria for getting a new replacement with totally free shipping is extremely lax.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2013 02:26

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

A mouse's true value after its comfort is what's inside, the sensor and microswitches of the Zowie FK absolutely destroy anything else you listed.

But if you don't play any games on your PC then it doesn't matter what you get.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2013 05:02

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

The Roccat Savu is actually one of their best models going, particularly because the kone uses an inferior sensor. $25 ($39?) is a ridiculously good price for it.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Aug 6, 2013

# ¿ Aug 6, 2013 16:31

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

That's a reasonable conclusion, I've read it's on the small side. Look into the Zowie line, they have several excellent options.

It doesn't have a "quality" sensor though, it has the best. :xd:

# ¿ Aug 9, 2013 21:39

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Ruin Completely posted:

Also also, is there a reason to actually advertise high rear end DPI so fanatically as gaming mice do? I'm pretty sure if you play precision heavy games enough to give a poo poo about a fancy mouse you'd probably be using the lowest setting anyway so you can aim without lurching the crosshair across the entire screen with one tiny movement.

No, "MAX DPI" is basically the brand marketing buzzword equivalent of monitors and their "1,000,000 : 1 CONTRAST RATIOS!!!!", ie. utterly devoid of meaning with the minimums all modern gaming mice are rocking.

Snackula posted:

Higher DPI means better precision. Lurching all over the place warpspeed cursor syndrome only happens if you don't set appropriate mouse sensitivity levels in software.

Not the way they advertise it. The quality of the sensor engine is what actually matters when it comes to precision unless you have an ancient brick that maxes out at a questionable 500 DPI (which hasn't been a lowest-bidder technology concern for over a decade).

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Aug 15, 2013

# ¿ Aug 15, 2013 21:07

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Number Two Stunna posted:

I'm using a mouse that I literally bought at Wal-Mart for $5 right now, it works fine for most stuff, but when I'm playing games it's hard to aim precisely (as in moving the crosshair a really small amount is a pain in the rear end). I'd like to get a decent mouse, but I'm not interested in a ~1337 GAMING MOUSE~, and I'm fine with three buttons. I just want something that's well built, precise and wired. Is this good?

http://ncix.com/products/?sku=57359&vpn=910%2D001439&manufacture=Logitech&promoid=1359

No, but the G400, G500 and G600 are.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 05:15

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

everythingWasBees posted:

The quality of the sensor, the ergonomics of the mouse, and possibly the build quality, but Logitech's lower end stuff has always held up for quite some time in my experience. (Also, in the case of the G400, 500, and 600, additional buttons and features, like hyperscroll.)
I will say, in regards to the G100s compared to mice similar to the one that you linked, the shape is more comfortable to use, though similar enough to be a seamless transition, the weight is a bit better, the mouse moves easier (better feet), the wheel's nicer, and the sensor seems more precise. Also, though I don't know if this is present in the mouse you linked, no glaring red light emitted from the bottom of the mouse.

The G400 (iirc) and the G600 run the Avago 3090, the best sensor tech currently around for gaming. It uses neither prediction or acceleration. Any other sensor in the Logitech line is gonna be inferior to this, the G500 included. I listed it earlier because I used one a long time and it's not bad, but absolutely not as tight and sharp as the mouse I upgraded to (a Zowie EC1 Evo).

# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 07:20

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Number Two Stunna posted:

I'll probably pick up a G400, then. It looks exactly like my old MX510!

Is there a difference between the G400 and the G400s?

The G500 and the G600 have an extremely similar shape as the MX518/G400 but extra buttons, functionality and the "WEIGHT CARTRIDGE" (a silly gimmick).

# ¿ Aug 16, 2013 16:20

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

The vast majority do, but the best sensors don't. Unfortunately, this isn't readily available information depsite the fact it's what should be on the box instead of 2 MILLION DPI-READY bullshit.

noobule posted:

Worthy replacement? Happy to pay a bit more. Something solid, extra buttons, precise. Oh and corded - I have no interest in yet another thing that need more batteries (unless corded mice are being abandoned by manufacturers)

If you like the G500, just cash in one Logitech's amazing no-questions-asked/free shipping warranty, you can get another with little trouble. If you do want a new one regardles, the G600 is an improved version of the G500, supposedly.

Corded mice aren't going to be abandoned as long as wireless are strictly inferior for polling precision and gaming. It seems like manufacturers can't figure out how to bridge that USB signal limitation and keep it cost-effective for themselves.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Aug 22, 2013

# ¿ Aug 22, 2013 03:57

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

It means that the sensor's movement won't always be 1:1 on a hardware level depending on your handspeed, and this is bad because there's no way to get rid of it at that level if you don't want it (you don't want it if you care about game accuracy).

This is what I've been talking about when I mention sensor quality. Zowie, Roccat, Razer's Deathadder 2013 and one or two of Logitech's G series have the superior Avago 3090 sensor. Not much else does yet as far as I'm aware .

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Aug 28, 2013

# ¿ Aug 28, 2013 15:26

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Tunga posted:

Cool, I figured that's what it was and I spent a few minutes moving slowly in one direction and then quickly in the other but I always ended up exactly back where I was (relative to cursor position). I guess Roccat are using the decent one, like you said. Kind of amusing since they just released an Optical version of the Kone because everyone had apparently been asking for it. I guess a lot of things are just marketing bullshit at the end of the day and don't really relate to whether a product is actually needed. If people want it then make it.

Edit: the 3090 is optical I think, so mine doesn't have it. Well, whatever they put in the Kone XTD seems fine anyway.

The Kones actually don't have a 3090, but the Savu does. Unsure about their other models.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2013 16:03

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Never buy a wireless mouse if you truly care about aiming precision in FPSes or any other game where it matters. The polling rate caps are still unreliably low.

That said, if you're hell bent on a wireless that looks pretty spiffy and a lot of people thought the MX1000 was pretty ultimate in its day. I'd expect Logitech might exceed the tenuous $80 MSRP in practice when it comes to retailers, though.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Aug 28, 2013

# ¿ Aug 28, 2013 16:12

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Goo posted:

G602 polling rate is 2ms - MX1000 was 8ms.

We've done tests with G700 (1ms wired or wireless) in wired vs wireless modes and people we've tested can't tell the difference.

People can't tell the difference, or the testing programs that read the sampling in real time can't tell the difference and are as consistent across the board? as equivalent wired models?

I don't use anything that can't always run 1000Hz all the time forever, but I'm attuned to it after so many years wasted aiming at tiny pixel heads. :roflolmao:

# ¿ Aug 28, 2013 20:36

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Goo posted:

Ultimately what is best is to use what works for you. I will not argue that it may be that you are attuned to it, and in that case you'd want to keep using a wired 1ms mouse. From what I've seen, changes in sensor ballistic characteristics (e.g. moving from a laser sensor to an optical sensor, or moving from one brand of optical sensor to another) have more effect on perceived responsiveness than moving from wired to wireless or moving from 2ms to 1ms. There's no universally perfect solution, which is why I get to keep making new products.

I did personally try an MX1000 and then Razer's wireless offering a few years back, and what they brought to the table wasn't anywhere near enough for me. If there's a way for transceivers to finally transmit a steady 500Hz sampling experience that's a big step up, but I'd still consider it the rare exception instead of the rule and I don't think I'm wrong.

I've been a longtiem Logitech user, this Zowie EC1 is the first non-logitech I've used in seriously 8 years. I liked the G500 a lot but as soon as I upgraded it became obvious to me that I had been using an inferior sensor and M1 switches for years. Still had the best mouse wheel I'd ever used, though. At least until a tiny component gives up due to fatigue and needs to be warrantied! :xd:

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Aug 28, 2013

# ¿ Aug 28, 2013 23:18

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

They use different microswitches (the left is top quality for obvious reasons) so it's supposed to be like that.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2013 19:27

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Why would you assume that? That's moronic. Every batch has defective samples that sneak through QA.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2013 10:48

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

The Zowie EC1 Evo is incredible, try it. I've got the white version and it's crazy good. The EC2 is exactly the same design but a bit smaller.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2013 17:22

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Goo posted:

Lethial - people who complain about it dislike the fact that it's there at all. They want it to be ratchet-mode only forever.

How many of those people do you imagine are still using windows xp.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2013 03:38

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

o muerte posted:

edit: to be fair, and you might want to toss this in as feedback as well, most mouse-wheels are horribly awkward to push down for a "middle click" with any level of precision (ie without accidentally scrolling up/down.) So I rebind all of them so that pushing the mouse-wheel to the left (I'm right handed) is a middle click and I completely ignore the fact that the wheel can tilt to the right. Makes ergonomic life much better for me.

I so happen to have done this exactly change as well for many years, that was my favorite part about the metal wheel on Logitech's best and I miss it the most.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2013 17:02

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

PreformedSoup posted:

I've been using a Razer Deathadder 3500 for the last couple years now and it's started doing funky stuff (clicking on it's own occasionally) so I'm looking for something new. I still have an MX518 but I've really gotten used to the 3500 DPI speed. How has the general experience with the G400 been? My only gripe with the G400s (and really all of Logitech's gaming mice) is that all the new mouse shells look like, in my opinion, absolute rear end. I know a few goons recommended the Zowie Evo but it looks like it only goes up to 2300 DPI. Any recommendations to transition from the DA?

We covered this earlier but a "DPI value" not being "high enough" is basically marketing bullshit unless you're some kind of insane weirdo who uses a drink coaster as a mousepad.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2013 20:47

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Based upon that criteria you should get a Zowie FK immediately and not look back.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2013 23:40

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

That is not a good guide, it's full of trash and misinformation. THE RAZER GOD TIER

TheQat posted:

If you feel like you are sensitive to mouse movement/might care about the inferior characteristics of laser mice, the only way to figure out if this poo poo matters to you is to try a mouse with the Avago 3090 sensor (for instance) back to back with one that has the ADNS9500. Just see which one you like more. I can't stand laser mice personally but there are tons of people who will never care

This is a good rule of thumb. If you can perceive the prediction-free smooth ride of a 3090, you'd want a ~premium mouse~. If not, do whatevs. Logitech warranty still rules.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Oct 9, 2013

# ¿ Oct 9, 2013 22:11

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

drat, that teamliquid write-up is badass even though all the mathematical figures scare me away. Good find.

Klyith posted:

Especially in an FPS, I'd challenge that to be noticeable, because aiming in an FPS is a feedback system.

It is.

TheQat posted:

It's really tough to rule out people noticing tiny variations in mouse response. I mean I can tell the difference between a laggy monitor and a responsive one in the first few seconds of using a computer, feel the difference between 1- and 3-frame render-ahead in video drivers, feel the mouse lag from vsync very acutely, etc. When I play games with a G9x it's harder to click on things accurately (I love the shape of that mouse so I've tried this many times, using the same DPI and report rate as I was using with optical, sometimes for a month or more. I always end up going back to 3090-based mice because the G9x feels wrong). It's not like audiophiles where people claim to notice their superior HDMI cable or whatever; these are precision instruments with quantifiable differences in engineering.

But at the same time I don't try to tell people they're using the wrong mouse. One of my most skilled friends uses a random Dell optical mouse with no adjustments. It's definitely mostly about what you're used to. I guess I just got used to Avago optical sensors

Agreed with all this. I've never been able to use vsync for that reason. When I moved from my longtime G500 to my Zowie, the superior difference made itself immediately apparent. The most relatable clue was that I was able to find my new idea sensitivity settings for an FPS in an hour, the total absence of any prediction or snapping drastically simplified what I'm used to being an agonizing trial and error search (from every past mouse upgrade I'd made).

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Oct 10, 2013

# ¿ Oct 10, 2013 07:23

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Do you really need 4000 DPI at all times? That's kind of insanely high.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2013 07:31

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

That's why I asked about the DPI, because the Zowie FK is perfect as a modern-age Intellimouse that's completely superior, but it tops out at 2300 DPI which I can never conceive of wanting to use on my Evo.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2013 12:18

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

That's another Pro in Zowie's favor - their flagship mice have full functionality with literally no drivers whatsoever. There aren't any, they simply work.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2013 12:35

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

You would have a hell of a time getting a brand new G9 for a good price anyway, as I believe it's discontinued.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2013 20:30

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Zotix posted:

I just found out angle snapping. Does the g500 come with this? Not the s variant. And does it need the setpoint software to have this feature? I've never noticed it until this point and I'd like to make sure that it's not on. I just installed windows 8.1 the other day, but I didn't install the setpoint software.

Yes it does, regardless of drivers. The G500 sensor has a lot of inaccuracies.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2013 15:46

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Lolcano Eruption posted:

Are there any mice with the good Avago sensor that don't have a rubberized coating?

I really prefer mice without it (who sweats that much to lose grip on a mouse?) because it always the first thing to show wear and then I'm compelled to replace the mouse.

I have the Zowie Evo EC-1 in white, white which has that classic glossy plastic sheen that you used to see in older mice. It's extremely nice and remains quite tactile even in situations with palm moisture (could be from a cold drink's condensation if not sweat).

# ¿ Nov 15, 2013 02:40

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Definitely cloth only for serious mouse pads. Their only weakness is that they need to be washed now and then. Their interaction with quality mouse feet is ideal - low, low friction and they'll never scratch 'em up.

kaschei posted:

I bought a func1030 hard mousepad a long, long time ago, and consider it a waste of money. It was hard to keep clean and rather small.

The original func1030 was loving excellent, its only weakness was that the smooth side goes bald eventually. It was a dream for ball mice.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Dec 18, 2013

# ¿ Dec 18, 2013 02:44

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Zowie's sensor works best with solid matte black, but that's nuts. You must have a defective unit.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2014 04:20

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

RMA it already dude, jesus. This obviously isn't typical of Zowie's quality.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2014 01:52

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

I would also laugh super loud if that guy had freewheel mode on the entire time without realizing it's toggleable with the press of a very obvious button right next to it. :roflolmao:

The wheel was my favorite part of the G500. I miss that metal/rubber dual action and tilt.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2014 22:18

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

One of those things is not like the others. Logitech support is second to none in my own experience and I always credit them that and will buy again, but that alone does not necessarily provide the ultimate mousing experience for someone's needs!

# ¿ Feb 4, 2014 01:34

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Ruin Completely posted:

Those do look pretty nice, is there an actual difference between the ec1 and ec2? And how are the mouse buttons? I know most people don't put a ton of stock in comfy mouse buttons but I use the 2 on my current mouse a lot, especially for things like quick switching in Counter Strike (gotta reload cancel dat awp); of all of them the Rival looked best for this.

The EC2 is smaller, but exactly the same shape otherwise. The microswitches and sensor (Avago 3090) are extremely high quality, and it's completely driverless. If there were a sole weakness at all, you could say it's the unremarkable (but not lovely) wheel.

EC1 is the most comfortable mouse I've ever used. The black finish has a rubbery texture grip and the white has that old-school glossy mouse plastic stickiness that allows you to grip through sweat easily.

TheRationalRedditor fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Feb 22, 2014

# ¿ Feb 22, 2014 05:07

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 08:40

TheRationalRedditor: Jul 17, 2000; WHO ABUSED HIM. WHO ABUSED THE BOY.

Ruin Completely posted:

In that case the ec1 seems like a good idea. I don't especially care about the wheel, on my current mouse it rattles around a lot when I move it since it has a free spinning mode and is so loosely placed in there, and that gets annoying, so as long as that doesn't happen it sounds good to me.

It's definitely not a rattler, it's simply basic. It's a nice soft beveled rubber and the scroll tension is really nice, though.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2014 18:55

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