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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?


I have a fun WCW story as told to me by Glacier. First some background:

During the last several months of WCW, there was an angle about Glacier making another return. They would show the classic "Blood Runs Cold" vignettes, only this time the commentators would be talking over them as if it was Mystery Science Theater. They'd talk about how lame Glacier was and how little impact his return would have.

BUT! This feeling wasn't unanimous. Backstage, we would see Norman Smiley excitedly watching the monitor. He's all happy about Glacier coming back and wonders if Glacier got his letters. Glacier eventually showed up in Norman's locker room and told him -- like some kind of superhero -- that he'd always be there to protect him.

What followed was a short, but hilarious angle. Smiley would have matches with guys like Bam Bam Bigelow and would bask in the knowledge that Glacier had his back. Glacier would walk out to the ring... and schmooze with the crowd. A confused Norman would get his rear end handed to him in the ring while Glacier high-fived fans and signed autographs. Finally, after Norman was pinned and the winner left up the ramp, Glacier would slide into the ring and pose like he's ready to fight. After getting over that he's too late, he'd pick up the microphone and tell Norman that he'll always be there for him.

This happened a couple times.

As Glacier explained to me, he was sitting at home, watching Thunder (or whatever show it was) and saw two other wrestlers backstage, beating on "Glacier", which was just a silhouette of another wrestler pretending to be Glacier. He thought it was hilariously stupid. After that, he was never mentioned on-air again.

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LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

MassRayPer posted:

When this happened what I had always heard was the reason the January deal fell through was one of the financial backers, whether it was Fusient or some other partner backed out. So they had to come up with new funding, but the deal was still presumed to be going on, they just needed to sure up their financing. This was a company that was brand new and hadn't done a deal close to this magnitude before. This was just the talk of the time, and a quick search shows the same basic story, but I have no idea where I first heard it. It was just what WCW fans talked about at the time.
What doesn't really fit is that Bischoff announced Nitro's "Night of Champions" on the Nitro before the final one. (Maybe it was two weeks before.) The deal had been completed and Bischoff was already a part of the company at most two weeks before Vince showed up on Nitro. If the Fusient deal failed in January, what was he doing there?

The story I've always heard, in Death of WCW and from Bischoff himself on the Monday Night Wars roundtable, is that Fusient was hesitant, but they got the company after three months of due diligence and what-not. They had signed some papers. It was all but theirs. Then Kellner, despite being in a position of his company not having to pay for WCW's failures anymore, canceled the show. Without the timeslots, the company was worthless and due to Fusient's already hesitant position on the matter, weren't interested in having Bischoff shop the show to USA or any other cable network. The deal was dead in the water without a timeslot.

Edit: I looked it up. Bischoff announced the Night of Champions on the very last Nitro before Vince showed up.

LividLiquid fucked around with this message at Dec 28, 2009 around 10:45

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

LividLiquid posted:

What doesn't really fit is that Bischoff announced Nitro's "Night of Champions" on the Nitro before the final one. (Maybe it was two weeks before.) The deal had been completed and Bischoff was already a part of the company at most two weeks before Vince showed up on Nitro. If the Fusient deal failed in January, what was he doing there?

The story I've always heard, in Death of WCW and from Bischoff himself on the Monday Night Wars roundtable, is that Fusient was hesitant, but they got the company after three months of due diligence and what-not. They had signed some papers. It was all but theirs. Then Kellner, despite being in a position of his company not having to pay for WCW's failures anymore, canceled the show. Without the timeslots, the company was worthless and due to Fusient's already hesitant position on the matter, weren't interested in having Bischoff shop the show to USA or any other cable network. The deal was dead in the water without a timeslot.

The deal was still being worked on, as I said, it was still assumed it would go through despite the problems in January. But when Bischoff announced the last Nitro, it was almost assured he'd lost as that was after Kellner canceled the shows. He then went to Fox (who he had been talking to for months because he had long shot dreams of a Hogan led faction on Fox feuding with WCW) and anyone who would listen to try and get a deal. But the initial deal had indeed fallen through in January, and Bischoff himself at the time kept trying to say how "These things take time" as his public time tables for WCW going on hiatus got pushed back. But in mid January it was announced that WCW had been sold to Fusient and then a backer pulled out and they had to re-secure the money end of things. And I can see how after three months AOL-Time Warner may have thought "gently caress this. We can sell to Vince if we cancel these shows, so let's cancel them, be done with it and sell the loving company." Because on one side they had to promise Bischoff several years of WCW programming on the Turner Networks to sell WCW to Fusient, a problematic company, or they could cancel it and sell it to a billion dollar company for less money, but it'd get done.

Dead Snoopy
Mar 23, 2005


Gavok posted:

I have a fun WCW story as told to me by Glacier. First some background:

During the last several months of WCW, there was an angle about Glacier making another return. They would show the classic "Blood Runs Cold" vignettes, only this time the commentators would be talking over them as if it was Mystery Science Theater. They'd talk about how lame Glacier was and how little impact his return would have.

BUT! This feeling wasn't unanimous. Backstage, we would see Norman Smiley excitedly watching the monitor. He's all happy about Glacier coming back and wonders if Glacier got his letters. Glacier eventually showed up in Norman's locker room and told him -- like some kind of superhero -- that he'd always be there to protect him.

What followed was a short, but hilarious angle. Smiley would have matches with guys like Bam Bam Bigelow and would bask in the knowledge that Glacier had his back. Glacier would walk out to the ring... and schmooze with the crowd. A confused Norman would get his rear end handed to him in the ring while Glacier high-fived fans and signed autographs. Finally, after Norman was pinned and the winner left up the ramp, Glacier would slide into the ring and pose like he's ready to fight. After getting over that he's too late, he'd pick up the microphone and tell Norman that he'll always be there for him.

This happened a couple times.

As Glacier explained to me, he was sitting at home, watching Thunder (or whatever show it was) and saw two other wrestlers backstage, beating on "Glacier", which was just a silhouette of another wrestler pretending to be Glacier. He thought it was hilariously stupid. After that, he was never mentioned on-air again.

If they had successfully executed this angle, it would have been the best one in the company's final year. Even better than the much alleged 'Disco Inferno-gets-a concussion-and -transforms-into-Hulk Hogan' one.

HorseHeadBed
May 6, 2009


MassRayPer posted:

Jim Herd in retrospect admits he was a total dumbass and has a really good sense of humor about his stint with WCW. He comes off as totally likeable and hilarious on his Wrestling Observer Live interview.

Have you got the date of this interview? I can't find it in the observer audio archives and would really like to hear it. (Tried a search, but didn't come up with anything.)

ColeM
Dec 23, 2007
New User Alert!

Giving Hogan creative control was a stupid mistake!

First thing: beat Ric Flair for the title at Bash at the Beach in his first match.

Second: Bring in his friends for easy money and title pushes. Effectively killing off the younger up and coming talent. Two things happened here: talent were either released soon after(Austin, Foley), or relegated to the mid card and chasing lesser belts(Sting, Luger, etc.). Or just booked and killed completely off(Vader). Ric Flair basically became Hogan's whipping boy until the demise of WCW.

Third: Due to the creative clause in his contract he could now refuse to job and put over anybody he didn't feel was 'big' enough(which was everybody). The only times he would actually drop the belt was when he went off to film a movie or to take himself off of tv when he knew ratings were gonna tank, and dropping the belt consisted of a run in or some other interference so he did not look weak.

He had a ridiculous title reign which eventually led to one of the reasons why WCW fell. WCW couldn't do anything about it as due his creative clause and they then had to cater to his demands and they could not take him off of TV because of his ridiculous contract.

Torgo2727
Oct 24, 2004
Taking Care of the Place While the Master Is Away

Gavok posted:

Glacier story

Seconding that this would have been a shining spot on WCW programming. Also Cryonic Kick > Sweet Chin Music.

iCloud Strife
Jul 24, 2007

by angerbeet


ColeM posted:

Giving Hogan creative control was a stupid mistake!
Why did they do that in the first place? Aside from WCW management not knowing much about wrestling, were they also ignorant of history and human nature?

Deranged Hermit
Nov 10, 2004

by Tiny Fistpump


Mullah Nasrudin posted:

Aside from WCW management not knowing much about wrestling, were they also ignorant of history and human nature?

Yes.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


ColeM posted:

Giving Hogan creative control was a stupid mistake!

Sure, but how else do you convince Hogan to come to WCW? Do you understand how important he was?

ColeM posted:

Second: Bring in his friends for easy money and title pushes.

This has nothing to do with creative control and everything to do with sway in the company.

ColeM posted:

Third: Due to the creative clause in his contract he could now refuse to job and put over anybody he didn't feel was 'big' enough(which was everybody).

Explain then the Luger one week switch, finally dropping to Sting and losing to Goldberg.

ColeM posted:

He had a ridiculous title reign which eventually led to one of the reasons why WCW fell. WCW couldn't do anything about it as due his creative clause and they then had to cater to his demands and they could not take him off of TV because of his ridiculous contract.

Hogan's long title reign was a good thing. It built up the emotion of the WCW side for the need to take down Hogan. If WCW was "winning the war" by beating Hogan for the belt every four months, the emotion would not have been there. Hogan having the belt for close to two years straight was a good booking decision.

BlazeKinser
Feb 28, 2003

SMEEEEEE!!!

Mullah Nasrudin posted:

Why did they do that in the first place? Aside from WCW management not knowing much about wrestling, were they also ignorant of history and human nature?

Probably, but I'm also betting that it was the only way they could get Hogan to sign up with them. I also doubt they were very clued in to him being a huge primadonna backstage or just didn't realize how powerful giving someone complete control of their character can be, and just thought "hey this guy is really popular let's sign him up and people will watch our show!"

Granted it was a benefit in the short term, but still handing over that much power to anyone is a big risk at best.

Lone Rogue posted:

Hogan's long title reign was a good thing. It built up the emotion of the WCW side for the need to take down Hogan. If WCW was "winning the war" by beating Hogan for the belt every four months, the emotion would not have been there. Hogan having the belt for close to two years straight was a good booking decision.

It might have been in theory, but in practice it really wasn't. They never really built anyone up as a strong enough challenger to take the belt from him, and whenever someone did start to gain steam eventually Hogan's ego pushed them back into the midcard where they were discredited. It wasn't a case of the rightful contender being screwed and cheated out of his chance to take the belt off Hogan month after month, it was the nWo stomping all over everyone to the point where 75% of the roster ended up being in an nWo splinter faction just so they would actually get some TV time that didn't involve jobbing out.

BlazeKinser fucked around with this message at Dec 28, 2009 around 16:49

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


BlazeKinser posted:

It might have been in theory, but in practice it really wasn't. They never really built anyone up as a strong enough challenger to take the belt from him, and whenever someone did start to gain steam eventually Hogan's ego pushed them back into the midcard where they were discredited. It wasn't a case of the rightful contender being screwed and cheated out of his chance to take the belt off Hogan month after month, it was the nWo stomping all over everyone to the point where 75% of the roster ended up being in an nWo splinter faction just so they would actually get some TV time that didn't involve jobbing out.

It wasn't as bad as how you make it sound. There was supposed to be a feeling of hopelessness, that the nWo ran the show and nobody could do anything about it. When guys like Piper and Luger got close (hell, Luger WON THE TITLE), the nWo found a way around it and took back their power. Sting was supposed to be Jesus to WCW and for someone in WCW to win the strap while Sting is supposed to make this big comeback against Hogan? It made no sense. Sting had to be *the* guy to finally get the job done and give fans the feeling that the tide turned. Technically they were right. The nWo was never the same after that.

Of course, the Sting vs. Hogan match was one of the biggest let downs due to terrible booking, a terrible finish and a sloppy way to keep Sting Champion. Sting became nWo only a few months after being saviour of WCW and Hogan got the strap once again. Everything up to Starrcade 1997 was absolutely fine booking wise (Aside from Hennig going to the nWo. What a bad move there). Starrcade 97 on was when things got stupid.

American Clamdigger
Oct 20, 2008


BlazeKinser posted:

Probably, but I'm also betting that it was the only way they could get Hogan to sign up with them. I also doubt they were very clued in to him being a huge primadonna backstage or just didn't realize how powerful giving someone complete control of their character can be, and just thought "hey this guy is really popular let's sign him up and people will watch our show!"

Granted it was a benefit in the short term, but still handing over that much power to anyone is a big risk at best.


It might have been in theory, but in practice it really wasn't. They never really built anyone up as a strong enough challenger to take the belt from him, and whenever someone did start to gain steam eventually Hogan's ego pushed them back into the midcard where they were discredited. It wasn't a case of the rightful contender being screwed and cheated out of his chance to take the belt off Hogan month after month, it was the nWo stomping all over everyone to the point where 75% of the roster ended up being in an nWo splinter faction just so they would actually get some TV time that didn't involve jobbing out.

Did you watch Nitro in 1997?

Giedroyc
Feb 18, 2001

ouch...

At the time in 96 I remember thinking WCW had lost out talent wise. I mean they got Hall/Nash and Waltman but in late 95-96 WWF got Austin, Pillman, Mero*, Vader, Dustin Rhodes and Foley all of which were my main reasons to watch WCW in the early 90s. Sadly some got lazy/injured which kind of ruined it a bit but on paper they had so much more potential than what happened.


*People dislike Mero now but before knacking up his knees he was great in 95/96.

Coffey
Sep 9, 2003

by T. Finn


American Clamdigger posted:

Did you watch Nitro in 1997?

Nitro in '97 was the best wrestling EVER in my opinion. The nWo Vs. Sting storyline was absolutely on fire. I don't know a single person in real life that wasn't watching. It was crazy. I have never seen wrestling so mainstream and popular. poo poo owned.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Coffey posted:

Nitro in '97 was the best wrestling EVER in my opinion. The nWo Vs. Sting storyline was absolutely on fire. I don't know a single person in real life that wasn't watching. It was crazy. I have never seen wrestling so mainstream and popular. poo poo owned.

Agreed. I watched it as a 12 year old and just thought it was good like Raw is War was good. Then I watched it on WWE 24/7 and every episode of Nitro was a fantastic show. You enjoyed everything. Even if you didn't like a wrestler, the storyline they were in was still probably good. And that was with removing a ton of Four Horsemen/Chris Benoit stuff.

ColeM
Dec 23, 2007
New User Alert!

Lone Rogue posted:

Explain then the Luger one week switch, finally dropping to Sting and losing to Goldberg.

It was a one week switch. The match was Hogan dominating the entire thing, an NWO/WCW run in and Luger scoring the submission amongst the confusion(hardly a decisive win). Hogan got the belt back and Luger's reign as champion was never mentioned ever again. Back to the mid card for Luger(not that he deserved a title shot).

Sure he dropped to Sting twice. But the first was one was a botched screw job(Hogan dominated the match anyways)and the second time was due to the Macho man running in and hitting Hogan with a spray can. Back to the mid card after that for Sting.

The Goldberg job was to benefit himself(+30,000 attendance = Hogan of course.). Kevin Nash took the reign as booker and killed Goldberg's momentum and gave the title back to Hogan on a silver platter. Goldberg was getting beat down every week, yet a year prior he was handling the NWO by himself.

American Clamdigger
Oct 20, 2008


I might be in the minority but I enjoyed WCW from 96-98 more than the WWF/E at any point. The jobbers were great jobbers. Rey, Benoit, Eddie, etc. were in their prime, and Scott Hall was still cool and not fat.

It really does go back to Starrcade '97 though. The bungling of the main event plus WCW completely screwing up Bret Hart are two big pieces of what really set things off down the path of no return.

Push El Burrito
May 9, 2006

SKATE FAST
EAT ASS


Grimey Drawer

I watched WWF only and even my friends switched to WCW but to hell with them they didn't have Austin.

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


ColeM posted:

It was a one week switch. The match was Hogan dominating the entire thing, an NWO/WCW run in and Luger scoring the submission amongst the confusion(hardly a decisive win).

I thought it was a roll-up.

DrunkenGarbageCan
Nov 4, 2009


Coffey posted:

Nitro in '97 was the best wrestling EVER in my opinion. The nWo Vs. Sting storyline was absolutely on fire. I don't know a single person in real life that wasn't watching. It was crazy. I have never seen wrestling so mainstream and popular. poo poo owned.

This.

I was 15 at the time and me and all the guys I went to school with would watch/talk about Nitro every week. The consensus was that WWF was for kids and WCW was more grown-up.

The only thing the WWF had during that time period that could pull me away from WCW was masked Kane.

And I didn't stop watching because I felt WCW was going south or anything. Between getting a car and my Junior/Senior years of high school I just started losing interest in wrestling all-together.

I got back into wrestling in college in the early 2000's and by that time the Attitude Era was in full-swing and WCW just couldn't compete.

I'm not as knowledgeable about wrestling as most around here but IMO WCW was just a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. At the end of the day in WWE, for better or worse, the buck stops with Vince.

tzirean
May 1, 2007



Pneub posted:

I thought it was a roll-up.

No, Luger definitely won with the Torture Rack.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

ColeM posted:

The Goldberg job was to benefit himself(+30,000 attendance = Hogan of course.). Kevin Nash took the reign as booker and killed Goldberg's momentum and gave the title back to Hogan on a silver platter. Goldberg was getting beat down every week, yet a year prior he was handling the NWO by himself.
Kevin Nash didn't get the book until well after the finger-poke of doom.

Coffey
Sep 9, 2003

by T. Finn


tzirean posted:

No, Luger definitely won with the Torture Rack.

I'll never forget this. Tony Schiavone flipped out on commentary!

TONY: "HE'S GONNA RACK HOGAN!"

Then after Hogan gave up and Luger won, the entire WCW lockerroom came out and cleaned the spray paint off the world title.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Nitro in 97 was indeed incredible. One of my fondest memories of wrestling will always be JJ Dillon asking Sting what he wanted and Sting not speaking. Instead he pointed his bat at a fan in the crowd with a sign that read: "JJ: STING WANTS HOGAN!"

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


This is my history of late 90s/early 2000s WCW.

Bischoff: The facts of life...to make an alteration in the evolvement of WCW is fatal. A booking sequence cannot be revised once it's been established.

Russo: Why not?

Bischoff: Because by the second week of booking, any main eventers that have creative control give rise to revertant colonies, like rats leaving a sinking ship; then the ship...sinks.

Russo: What about pretending titles are meaningless?

Bischoff: We've already tried it - US Tag Team, Mid-Atlantic, Western States championships as alkylating agents and potent mutagens; it created programs so dull the champion's heat was dead before it even left the table.

Russo: Then a celebrity appearance, that would block the operating cells.

Bischoff: Wouldn't obstruct ticket sales; but it does give rise to an error in creative control, so that the newly formed nWo carries with it a mutation - and you've got a virus again...but this, all of this is academic. WCW was made as well as we could make it.

Russo: But not to last.

Bischoff: The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and WCW has burned so very, very brightly, Vince. Look at us: we're the Prodigal Sons; we're quite a prize!

Russo: We've done... questionable things.

Bischoff: Also extraordinary things; revel in our time.

Russo: Nothing Dixie Carter wouldn't let either of us into TNA for.

E: I do agree with many of the posters in here, though, who said that WCW was white-hot from 1996-1998 or thereabouts. I recall seeing people wearing nWo shirts who were A)not the stereotype "fat mouthbreathing rednecks" that wrestling fans are commonly viewed as and B)not hipsters wearing them in an ironic fashion. Stone Cold and the Rock may have made wrestling hugely mainstream for the first time since the 1980s, but they might not have gotten there without the nWo paving the way for popular acceptance.

Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at Dec 28, 2009 around 23:23

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


Grandpa Pap posted:

This is my history of late 90s/early 2000s WCW.

Bischoff: Sting is lying on his back, the letters nWo burning into his belly as he beats his legs trying to turn himself over... but he can't, not without your help, but you're not helping.
Sid: What do you mean I'm not helping?
Bischoff: I mean, you're not helping. Why is that Sid? Did you forget your scissors?
Sid: My scissors?
Bischoff: DID YOU FORGET YOUR SCISSORS!?!

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009



If only WCW had a savior. But what would the savior's story be?

There is no money, no middle class, no justice and no hope. Food is the only commodity in a world divided into social casts: the affluent elite who live in the domed citiesand tattered poor who inherited the unwanted waste lands. Out of this desolate land steps Nash, a massive man with a plan, intent on giving the establishment in the cities a butt kicking and the poor of the waste lands a piece of the pie.....



gently caress yes.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Whatever you guys are quoting sounds bad rear end.

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


Jerusalem posted:

Bischoff: Sting is lying on his back, the letters nWo burning into his belly as he beats his legs trying to turn himself over... but he can't, not without your help, but you're not helping.
Sid: What do you mean I'm not helping?
Bischoff: I mean, you're not helping. Why is that Sid? Did you forget your scissors?
Sid: My scissors?
Bischoff: DID YOU FORGET YOUR SCISSORS!?!

Assuming this is the actual quote from that reboot Nitro, that really should have tipped Russo/Bischoff/Russchoff when 99% of the crowd had no idea what they were referring to.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


LividLiquid posted:

Whatever you guys are quoting sounds bad rear end.



Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


LividLiquid posted:

Whatever you guys are quoting sounds bad rear end.

Russo: Not very sporting to chairshot an unarmed opponent. I thought you were supposed to be good. Aren't you the good guy? Come on Hogan, you bald bastard, show me what you're made of.
Russo breaks fourth wall

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Bischoff: Have you felt yourself to be exploited in WCW in any way?

Raven: Like what?

Bischoff: Well... well, like to get this job. I mean, did... did you do, or... or were you asked to do anything lewd... or unsavory, or... or, otherwise repulsive to your... your person, huh?

Raven: [laughs] Are you for real?

Raven takes Bischoff up on his release offer

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Seriously, though. What's going on here?

Hockles
Dec 25, 2007

Resident of Camp Blood
Crystal Lake



LividLiquid posted:

Seriously, though. What's going on here?

I'm just as lost as you are.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


Hockles posted:

I'm just as lost as you are.

Like tears in the rain?

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Fightstar Lyrics?

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


Bischoff: I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Dennis Rodman fighting Karl Malone at Bash at the Beach. I watched Dusty Rhodes turn on Larry Zbyszko and join the nWo. All those moments will be lost in time...like tears in rain. Time to die.

Bischoff watches as Fusient deal falls thru; Vince McMahon buys WCW

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

gently caress. I haven't seen Blade Runner in 20 years.

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Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


LividLiquid posted:

gently caress. I haven't seen Blade Runner in 20 years.

The best thing about Blade Runner is that it's a loving awesome movie.

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