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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Yeah but that doesn't really reveal anything since you can "work with" peers, subordinates, or superiors. Amazing Red could wander into the room and wave the X Title and suggest he should defend it and suddenly he'd be "working with" them too.

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Coffey
Sep 9, 2003

by T. Finn


Yeah, it also doesn't note if Russo is there or not.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Russo has been in the office the last week or so working on it according to Meltzer, so this is probably going to be a mess of too many writers spending too much time on one loving crazy batch of ego and insanity.

GOP
May 19, 2007

by Ozmaugh


Grandpa Pap posted:





That's hilarious. Warrior looks just like Leon Kowalski.

"Let me tell you bout my mother... Hulk... HO-Gaaaaaaaaaan."

GOP
May 19, 2007

by Ozmaugh


Moose Bigelow posted:

The book "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" was way better than that piece of poo poo movie. The original movie followed the book but test audiences hated it so they went with the copout ending of them falling in love.

I disagree. The mood organs. The Mercer messiah character. The androids being unfeeling androids. A lot of that book didn't pack the emotional impact of Ridley Scott's film.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


GOP posted:

I disagree. The mood organs. The Mercer messiah character. The androids being unfeeling androids. A lot of that book didn't pack the emotional impact of Ridley Scott's film.

Watch the scene where Ford slams the door shut to kiss Sean Young. Watch it with the sound off and say it's still romantic.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Moose Bigelow posted:

Watch the scene where Ford slams the door shut to kiss Sean Young. Watch it with the sound off and say it's still romantic.

They are robots they don't know what romance is it melts their circuits.

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


For fucks sake, don't make Hulkamatt ban talking about Blade Runner.

ThatCguy
Jan 19, 2008


Harrison Ford only uses ketchup.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


quote:

The Goldberg incident was a part of something so dumb people could not believe it at the time. Leading up to the PPV, Russo promised a HUGE surprise at the Great American Bash, something so big that Vince McMahon could do nothing about. People speculated they were buying ECW. People speculated about an ECW/WCW invasion. People thought it might be cross-promotion with Japan.

Instead, Goldberg turned heel.

I can remember IGN wrestling seriously speculating that Russo was going to announce that he would get rid of rings to cross promote the WCW Backstage Assault game. People thought he was that retarded, even at the time.

I don't think that people are entirely fair toward WCW sometimes. People look back and act like WCW was a joke for years, but they were doing OK, until 1999. Even if you go back and watch those late 1998 shows, they're not bad television. This company was still perfectly viable well into the first few months of 1999. It was in no way a joke. Bischoff hit the panic button in Spring 1999 and basically had to be pulled because he was going apeshit. No one knew the Russo was borderline retarded when they first brought him in. If they had replaced Bischoff with a better booker, and kept spending in check, it is plausible that things would have turned around eventually. It was only during 2000 that WCW was a total crap shoot with no hope of return. Even in 2001, people were saying things could turn around. WCW had some pretty drat good shows in early 2001.

TNA =\= because WCW was legit the number one wrestling company in the world at one point.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2009 around 00:54

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


I think the main reason that WCW is thought of as a joke company is that when it was at its worst, it was so unbelievably, inconceivably bad. Not to mention that the younger Internet wrestling fans weren't around/don't remember WCW in its prime or the 85-week period when it topped RAW in the ratings.

I saw at least bits and pieces of every single Nitro (and most Thunders). WCW is fascinating in that its peak was so awesome and its valley was so dreadful. I don't think any company can have that kind of variation, but WCW pulled it off.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I don't even know if I buy that WCW's lows were especially worse than anyone else's. WWF/E's had some pretty terrible runs and some really horrible stuff. I think the big thing is that its just really easy to laugh at the guy who had it all and then fell from glory. ECW was a terribly run organization but Heyman never really got them much above the indies or "cult" status so the fact that he screwed over his employees, spent frivolously, had his share of terrible booking, and ran ECW into the ground doesn't really matter. ECW were the underdogs and the rebels who just couldn't stay alive in this wrestling world. And all of WWE's mistakes are justified by the simple fact that they're THE company. Nothing they did could have been THAT bad, could it? Not if they're where they are.

But WCW was the #1 company that lit the world on fire and pushed wrestling into the mainstream. So the fact that they managed to gently caress things up so badly that they died a few years later is easy to mock, and even a little fun in that schadenfreude way we love to rip people off pedestals. And that gets exaggerated and the further you get from the truth the more it gets foggy. History's written by the winners and if WWE tells you WCW was always crap and just got lucky using WWE's stars then who is around to say different? Of course Bischoff and Hogan think they did good, its their legacies. But listen to all these disgruntled ex-employees or guys who were on the other side of the fight had their careers tied into the fight.

When people/companies/whatever are exceeding expectations or running flush then instinct says that they must be doing it right. When they're struggling to grow or falling then its easy to assume they hosed it up. Because if you weren't doing so much worse than ____ than why is _____ where they are when you're where you are? And for WCW to have been where it was and to now be dead? drat... they must just have been terrible in a way no one else has been because no one else has done that.

Its faulty logic but its no different than the logic that has sports fans saying "No one's ever lost X games in a row! You're unbelievably terrible!" "Yeah, but a bunch of teams have lost 1 game less than X in a row! And look at the circumstances of these losses. Its really not nearly as bad as you're making it sound." "Dude, you're the worst loser in history. Its as simple as that. Plain as the numbers. HAHAHAHA!"

Nut Bunnies
May 24, 2005



Fun Shoe

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a WWF/E period as wretched as WCW 99-01.

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


Captain Charisma posted:

I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a WWF/E period as wretched as WCW 99-01.

I'm going to agree with this. WWE has had segments that have been wretched, but WCW had SHOWS like that. Hell, they had a three-hour Nitro when the first match started around 9:15 or so (it was an 8-11 show).

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


See, I'd put RAW a couple of weeks back right up there with some of the worst shows I've seen from WCW, TNA, or whoever. But then we're just talking about subjective opinions and comparing stuff years or decades apart that you just can't see as clearly as you once could. So what's the point? But at least personally speaking there's been periods of time where I found WWE TV to be as big of a chore to watch as I did WCW during those days. And just like I'm sure many people can find gems in the trash of WWE's worst periods I remember almost always being able to find some things to enjoy and put hope into during those dark WCW days.

But there's no sane reason for us to argue whether or now WCW '99-'01 was an impossible bit of bad to match or whether WWE had periods comparable because its all just personal feelings.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I think that AWA in the late 80s/early 90s was worse than WCW in 2000, but it's pretty close. AWA had a turkey on a pole match, WCW had a viagra on a pole match. WCW in the year 2000 is a festering pool of poo poo. It's started out with Kevin Sullivan booking shows like it was 1993/94 all over again. Then we got the New Blood crap. The only good things about WCW in 2000 to the best of my recollection was a decent Scott Stiener/Booker T feud when Stiener could still walk, and Lance Storm's run. WCW managed to get Storm super over in 2000.

The Bash at the Beach thing was pretty crazy because everyone thought it was real at the time, then they ran it into the ground with "Bash at the Beach shocked you! New Blood Rising will rock you!" The New Blood story line had ended by the time the New Blood Rising PPV took place.

2001 was actually pretty good, because the cruiserweight division mounted a semi comeback. The trouble is, no one cared anymore, it was just too little too late. It started with an awesome six man ladder match at Starcade 2000, and they actually managed to keep the ball rolling in the cruiserweight division until the WWF bought WCW. I actually remember Greed, WCW's last Pay Per View, being shockingly decent, and getting pretty good reviews. They introduced the cruiserweight tag titles and had this big tournament, and were starting to sign guys like AJ styles and Christopher Daniels. I actually recall Kid Kash having a great match on the last Thunder, though I may be wrong, that was some time ago.

*Edit* Here's a Greed review. And another. There were lovely matches on the card, but the Cruiserweight stuff and the main event were all worth watching. I think 4 good matches, 2 average ones, and 4 lovely ones warrants a passing grade, unlike nearly everything WCW did in 2000.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2009 around 03:12

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


An interesting fact to think about is that during Bischoff's run, the biggest losses for WCW to the WWF were Chris Jericho and The Giant. Two guys still around so yeah they were pretty big losses. The biggest losses during Vince Russo's run to the WWF was... ummm... Haku? The biggest loss during Kevin Sullivan's super short run as WCW booker? Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko and Perry Saturn all in one swoop.

I remember reading at the time that if the WCW brain trust had put their confidence in Terry Taylor at the time, things would have been a ton better. He booked WCW Saturday Night for a while and had a great rapport with the wrestlers. He was also very good at thinking up gimmicks and storylines for WCW. Would Terry have been great in a head booker spot? Maybe not, but he wouldn't have pissed anyone off royally and would have respected the midcard.

And Magic_Ceiling_Fan, was it Kid Kash or EZ Money/Jason Jett?

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


WCW went on a Cruiserweight hiring spree in the winter of 2001. They hired him like a week before they closed and he had one match.

Here's what wikipedia says:

quote:

On March 21, 2001 Kid Kash signed with the WCW where they billed him as Kash. Less than a week later WWE and Vince McMahon purchased WCW, and wanted to keep Kash on through a renegotiation of his contract, which would have cut his wages considerably.

*Edit* Apparently it was Jason Jett vs. Kid Kash.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2009 around 03:25

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Yeah, I think he's thinking about Jett/Money who was tearing poo poo up there for the last few months of WCW. I think there was lot of fun stuff in the midcard in 2000-2001. Everything Lance Storm related. Booker getting the main event push even if it could have worlds better. The Yung Dragons/3 Count stuff that led to the resurgence of the CW division, guys like Jason Jett and Elix Skipper, and the CW Tag belts. A really solid tag division a lot of the time. The Natural Born Thrillers. Silly comedy stuff like the Boogie Knights or Glacier/Smiley. Daffney/Crowbar. Ms. Handcock (when she wasn't having babies). I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting.

But you had to get PAST the crappy top stories to find it. I felt it was very similar to the way WCW was traditionally with an undercard and midcard that would carry shows. But for the most part I think most people were done with WCW after the New Blood fiasco and the little attention they paid was spent on the big stories to see if it was turning around. So the fact that the midcard was once again delivering like it had been a couple of years ago just fell through the cracks.

EDIT: Whoops. Guess it was Kash. My bad.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Jason Jett's wikipedia article is hilarious.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

Jason Jett's wikipedia article is hilarious.

quote:

EZ Money is a thief. He took my money and promised to make my wrestling gear and have it to me in a couple weeks. Almost a year later, he still hasn't got my gear to me and will not answer any emails, phone calls or faxes regarding this situation. Don't let him rip you off!

I hope nobody edits it.

CubsWoo
Aug 17, 2005

Where the big boys RAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH FUCK YOU


Mister E posted:

I'm just curious as to how much financial freedom Bischoff and Hogan are going to have in TNA. It Panda isn't keeping them on a tight leash I fear lots and lots of cars are once again going to get wrecked if things don't start swinging upwards.

Considering his personal life and what his son did, do you really expect any actual car wrecks happening if Hogan is anywhere near the book?

Dead Snoopy
Mar 23, 2005


^^^
the man is shameless....so YEAH

bobkatt013
Oct 8, 2006

Boomerang Arrow. It comes back to you in the end. Boomerang respect it.


CubsWoo posted:

Considering his personal life and what his son did, do you really expect any actual car wrecks happening if Hogan is anywhere near the book?

Well they will only get hurt if they are a negative person

bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2009 around 19:24

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


bobkatt013 posted:

Well they will only get hurt if they are a heel

Fixed for TNA.

Deranged Hermit
Nov 10, 2004

by Tiny Fistpump


CubsWoo posted:

Considering his personal life and what his son did, do you really expect any actual car wrecks happening if Hogan is anywhere near the book?

Plus Hummers waste a lot of gas.

I'd expect a "who drove the white Smartcar?" angle though.

facebook jihad
Dec 18, 2007

all my words trip as they leave my lips
I've come to set things straight
she needs an excuse to end things and
become the things you hate


Considering what a number of you have said about how WCW was great and just had a bad period in 2000 was a decent company the rest of the time, I kind of believe the opposite: that WCW was a pretty lousy company that two or three good years around 1996 and 1998. Before that, you had JCP, which lost a ton of money and was going to go under before Turner bought it out. You had Herd, then Watts, both who were jokes close to the level of Russo. The hiring of Hogan (WCW's alleged big coup) after the big steroid scandal and lovely movies he produced was extremely shortsighted; and his reception was lukewarm at best, with Bischoff having to pay people to attend the big welcoming parades at Universal Studios or wherever. THE ALLIANCE TO END HULKAMANIA.

Finally, the signing of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash ignited the best years in WCW via the start of the nWo (an idea Bischoff stole from Japan) that also coincided (something I don't think can really be ignored) with WWF's damage caused by the steroid/sex scandal. While nWo was great in the beginning, it went on way too long and also ignited the very real problem of the old guys running the show and getting terribly excessive contracts. The end of Bischoff's reign as a successful booker came about probably around the time that he told his wrestlers he would sue Ric Flair out of the company for not attending some shows. After that you have 99, Russo, and so on...

In other words, WCW may not have been as terrible as it was in 2000, but it sucked...a lot, like the OP suggests. It was more of a hot period for a weak company that capitalized on the changing times/disillusion with post-scandal WWF.

GOP
May 19, 2007

by Ozmaugh


1988-1992 were the best WCW years.

The in ring product at the time was leaps and bounds better than anything else in America. But I my vision may be clouded because that was the wrestling I first started watching when I got into wrestling as a kid.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


crankdatbatman posted:

Considering what a number of you have said about how WCW was great and just had a bad period in 2000 was a decent company the rest of the time, I kind of believe the opposite: that WCW was a pretty lousy company that two or three good years around 1996 and 1998. Before that, you had JCP, which lost a ton of money and was going to go under before Turner bought it out. You had Herd, then Watts, both who were jokes close to the level of Russo. The hiring of Hogan (WCW's alleged big coup) after the big steroid scandal and lovely movies he produced was extremely shortsighted; and his reception was lukewarm at best, with Bischoff having to pay people to attend the big welcoming parades at Universal Studios or wherever. THE ALLIANCE TO END HULKAMANIA.

Finally, the signing of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash ignited the best years in WCW via the start of the nWo (an idea Bischoff stole from Japan) that also coincided (something I don't think can really be ignored) with WWF's damage caused by the steroid/sex scandal. While nWo was great in the beginning, it went on way too long and also ignited the very real problem of the old guys running the show and getting terribly excessive contracts. The end of Bischoff's reign as a successful booker came about probably around the time that he told his wrestlers he would sue Ric Flair out of the company for not attending some shows. After that you have 99, Russo, and so on...

In other words, WCW may not have been as terrible as it was in 2000, but it sucked...a lot, like the OP suggests. It was more of a hot period for a weak company that capitalized on the changing times/disillusion with post-scandal WWF.

I think that the only thing anyone's trying to argue is that WCW wasn't the joke people try to make it out to be nowadays, not that it was a five star match factory. It was pretty much the only legit competition that the WWF had since the mid 80s, and that in itself pretty much legitimizes it as a promotion.

It was also leaps and bounds ahead of what TNA is today, the year 2000 excepted.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at Dec 31, 2009 around 22:26

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.


crankdatbatman posted:

Considering what a number of you have said about how WCW was great and just had a bad period in 2000 was a decent company the rest of the time, I kind of believe the opposite: that WCW was a pretty lousy company that two or three good years around 1996 and 1998.

I thought that this was what everyone WAS saying? That apart from a couple of golden years, WCW was pretty much always terrible? I thought they had some good years very late 80s and maybe a year and a bit in the early 90s, but they were dreadful most of the rest of the time, hit a high note roughly around 96-98 and then careened off of a cliff after that?

facebook jihad
Dec 18, 2007

all my words trip as they leave my lips
I've come to set things straight
she needs an excuse to end things and
become the things you hate


Jerusalem posted:

I thought that this was what everyone WAS saying? That apart from a couple of golden years, WCW was pretty much always terrible? I thought they had some good years very late 80s and maybe a year and a bit in the early 90s, but they were dreadful most of the rest of the time, hit a high note roughly around 96-98 and then careened off of a cliff after that?

You're right. I was assuming when I wrote that people were saying it was loads better than TNA in that it was a legit company doing good things and being a threat to WWE the entire time (with exception to 2000).

Funny story about WCW, I didn't get into wrestling when all my friends were really into it, say the school year of 98-99 (I thought it was fake, so I'd rather watch football or hockey), so I couldn't join in on the discussion. I finally started to watch it in late 99 to see what the fuss was about, and since I knew most people talked about WCW I started watching that, but when I would go to school to talk about it everyone was switched to WWF and teased me for watching WCW...

Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


The high point and eventual collapse of WCW are a huge part of my wrestling background. I stopped really watching back around 1999/2000, as the death of WCW really killed my interest in the company. As such, I love talking about how lovely WCW was.

But, a lot of really, really dumb things happened. One thing that sticks out to me as kind of overlooked, but very representative of WCW at the time, was the signing of Madusa Miceli or, as she was known in WWF, Alundra Blayze.

As Blayze, she was a long time Women's Champion, basically being the division along with a token monster heel (played by Bull Nakano & Bertha Faye) for roughly a three year period before jumping ship in 1995.

She was brought into WCW in '95, and immediately dumped the WWF Women's title into a trash can on live TV. This was about a year after Shane Douglas' thing, but as a young fan with no knowledge of ECW at all, it was the highest profile thing involving a promotion's title belt at the time.

Blayze went back to the Madusa name upon entering WCW and promptly began doing basically the same thing - being the face of a moribund women's division with no hope of help showing up. Eventually, the entire division went away, and Madusa was sent home for about two or three years.

Upon her return, she managed Macho Man for awhile, had a odd feud/managerial deal with Evan Karagias and (once I stopped watching) feuded with Ed Ferrera (who was doing his fake JR schtick as "Oklahoma"). This was about as meaningless as it sounds. Oh, and at some point during this time period they also brought her out to promot a new WCW-branded cologne. Which involved her acting like it smelled terrible. This was also the only time the cologne was mentioned on WCW programming, that I can remember.

But, to me, she's a good example of the thought process behind WCW's hiring. If you had any modicum of notoriety, you'd get a multi-year deal and a good probability of not working for half of the contract, more if you're "lucky" (see: Lanny Poffo, amongst others). Beyond throwing the title into a trash can, there's nothing that Madusa would have been able to bring to WCW unless they really committed themselves to a top tier women's division. Clearly, they didn't, and since Madusa was never able to cut a promo, she was a waste of money.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


The thing to remember is that WCW, regardless of how generally horrible they were with a few bright spots inbetween, was Ted Turner's Revenge Machine against Vince McMahon. So, no matter how bad they were, as long as Ted was around to back them up they were assured of existence. The fact that they were actually able to beat Vince for a while was just icing on the cake.

Short of something like Ted Turner going bankrupt, WCW would probably STILL be around today if Turner hadn't sold Time Warner to AOL (and thus become less involved in the running of the business). At worst, it was a tax writeoff for Turner; at best, he was actually able to beat Vince McMahon at his own game, if only for a while.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Grandpa Pap posted:

Short of something like Ted Turner going bankrupt, WCW would probably STILL be around today if Turner hadn't sold Time Warner to AOL (and thus become less involved in the running of the business). At worst, it was a tax writeoff for Turner; at best, he was actually able to beat Vince McMahon at his own game, if only for a while.
Just to be clear, Turner didn't sell Time Warner to AOL. Not only was he not in charge of Time Warner, but AOL's buyout of Time Warner was a hostile takeover.

Coffey
Sep 9, 2003

by T. Finn


WCW made a lot of wrestlers household names. Mainly because they had TV that everyone could get. Flair, Sting, Goldberg, DDP...all WCW. Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, Mysterio all had experience elsewhere (ECW, Mexico, Japan) but were known because of WCW. As mentioned earlier, Jericho & The Giant (The Big Show) are still in WWE. Even smaller names like Chavo, Dustin Rhodes (Goldust), Finlay all the way down to Jim Ross had their roots from WCW. So it's not like they didn't get us anything, regardless of is the show was piss or not.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!


I've been watching the nitro's from the begining on youtube recently due to my exposure from 92-98 was purely that which was shown on Worldwide. Other than the first Nitro, until the NWO showed up the majority of shows were pretty terrible consisting of a tag match, a Savage or Luger squash and a main event involving the stars. Its amazing how much one hot angle really ignited the entire product, because from the moment Scott Hall arrived on the first two hour show everything became that much better.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Wrestling in general was almost all squashes and midcard matches until the 90s. I mean, Hogan showed up on WWF TV like 3 times a year tops.

facebook jihad
Dec 18, 2007

all my words trip as they leave my lips
I've come to set things straight
she needs an excuse to end things and
become the things you hate


What never made sense to me is, in fact, Lex Luger. He was primed to be the next Hulk Hogan in WWF after the Hogan departure, but wound up not having any charisma so Vince didn't know what to do with him. He winds up going to WCW and appears on the first Nitro, which apparently was a big deal to WWF and Vince. However, at least to my knowledge, he still sucked in WCW and is one of those jokes on the level of Sid, Khali, and Warrior.

WCW I tells ya.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Luger was big in WCW before he went to the WWF...

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Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


Luger was never a good worker, but he was a convincing worker, wasn't absolutely horrible and had a good look, and that's what got him over. It may be hard to believe, since when his name comes up now the things that come to mind are things like "Luger vs. shirt" and his being The Narcissist, but he was pretty well over and was serviceable in a borderline top of the card role.

And while a lot of WCW did suck, they were capable of scouting and signing talent for a long period, and they don't get enough credit for that.

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