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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


oatgan posted:

roman reigns

#DamnItsTrue

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exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

MassRafTer posted:

Would he have trained and gotten a big storyline right off the bat in Memphis? Of course not. Jerry helped him get his foot in the door in the WWF, but the actual run there wasn't because of him, nor was him ending up in WCW and then back in the WWF where they tried to push him each time. I wouldn't say his career from 94-99 was really nepotism, and TNA post 2002 is just running your own company and pushing yourself.

'94 to '99 was nepotism that was amplified with a feedback loop of dick-waving that pervaded WCW/WWF talent relations whenever they would sign a dude away from the other company in the mid '90s.

He did get the WWF job with nepotism and his role and push weren't exactly great at that time, he got the beat all the jobbers but then lose to the stars job.

Also for bonus nepotism points on getting to be BFFs with the head writer in WWF who then took over WCW creative who then pushed you as a main event star.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

Jarrett went between WCW and WWF like 3 times and every time he switched promotions he cut the same lovely "shoot" promo about how the other guys were holding him back

My personal favorite was when he did sitdown interviews to bury his old country music gimmick ... and went back to the gimmick like 3 months later

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Feels Villeneuve posted:

are there any wrestlers who were possibly unfairly hurt by the perception of nepotism


I've heard it applied to Greg Gagne and early-career Dustin Rhodes, were there any others?

It was pretty fair with Dustin Rhodes, he wasn't great and guys like Austin got cut off and their pushes redirected to Dustin. He became really good shortly after (and then really bad) but Dusty definitely showed unfair favoritism to him before he got great in say, 92ish?

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

honestly MRT, at best maybe you say his first WCW run, since that wasn't directly influenced by nepotism, just a benefit of getting his foot in the door with WWF combined with a favorable headwind with how WCW talent relations and booking were at the time

but he pretty much got in tight with the head writer in his second WWF run to the point where Russo was trying to push him into feuds with Austin even though he wasn't anywhere near that level

and then he followed Russo to WCW and debuted with a gimmick of "HEY I'M THE NEW BOOKER'S (and savior of the company) BEST FRIEND"

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


exploded mummy posted:

honestly MRT, at best maybe you say his first WCW run, since that wasn't directly influenced by nepotism, just a benefit of getting his foot in the door with WWF combined with a favorable headwind with how WCW talent relations and booking were at the time

but he pretty much got in tight with the head writer in his second WWF run to the point where Russo was trying to push him into feuds with Austin even though he wasn't anywhere near that level

and then he followed Russo to WCW and debuted with a gimmick of "HEY I'M THE NEW BOOKER'S (and savior of the company) BEST FRIEND"

In his second WWF run he flounded for a full year before they found anything that worked. Sure he hits it off with Russo but all that actually gets him is a midcard push. Vince has the final say and he kept Jeff at a certain level, and his heat at the end justified when the push got bigger. That heat was based on horrible misogyny, but he had it.

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

MassRafTer posted:

In his second WWF run he flounded for a full year before they found anything that worked. Sure he hits it off with Russo but all that actually gets him is a midcard push. Vince has the final say and he kept Jeff at a certain level, and his heat at the end justified when the push got bigger. That heat was based on horrible misogyny, but he had it.

Nepotism doesn't mean he has to be a MEer, just that he was getting preferential treatment because of his relationship to Russo.

That a dude who was floundering around the midcard with minimal heat was having the head writer attempt to book him against the company ace is proof of that.

fart blood
Sep 13, 2008



Feels Villeneuve posted:

are there any wrestlers who were possibly unfairly hurt by the perception of nepotism

I've heard it applied to Greg Gagne and early-career Dustin Rhodes, were there any others?

I donít know if Richie Steamboat couldíve lived up to his dad.

Hey that reminds me, whatever happened to him anyway?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


exploded mummy posted:

Nepotism doesn't mean he has to be a MEer, just that he was getting preferential treatment because of his relationship to Russo.

That a dude who was floundering around the midcard with minimal heat was having the head writer attempt to book him against the company ace is proof of that.

He wasn't floundering by that point the guy was really over.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

fart blood posted:

I donít know if Richie Steamboat couldíve lived up to his dad.

Hey that reminds me, whatever happened to him anyway?

He hosed up his back and had to retire

Edge & Christian
May 20, 2001

Earth-1145 is truly the best!
A world of singing, magic frogs,
high adventure, no shitposters


fart blood posted:

To be fair I think Bret got injured like a week into it, and Hall was...well, Hall, so it died a quick death.
I had forgotten just how incredibly snakebit the NWO 2000 angle was, to the point that it really seemed like the universe just didn't want the New World Order.

12/07/1999: Bret Hart and Goldberg beat Creative Control for the world tag titles, are challenged to a match by Hall and Nash.

12/13/1999: Hall and Nash beat Hart and Goldberg for the tag titles, continue to feud with both men to build up a world title match between Hart and Goldberg.

12/19/1999: Bret Hart wins a title match against Goldberg at Starrcade in a match where Roddy Piper is the guest referee and Piper *may* have screwed Goldberg in a remake of the Montreal Screwjob. Bret gets a bad concussion from Goldberg in this match.

12/20/1999: Bret Hart gives Goldberg a rematch, but Hall/Nash/Jarrett run in and NWO 2000 is born! They are poised to feud with Goldberg and Roddy Piper.

12/23/1999: Roddy Piper disappears. Goldberg decides to legit punch out the window of the NWO's limo, severely injures his arm, is out of action.

12/27/1999: Sid Vicious is slotted into Goldberg's feud with the NWO. Bret Hart gives Jerry Flynn a title shot and the NWO gangbeats him, leading to Tank Abbott running off the NWO. Abbott moves on.
Jeff Jarrett wins the US title from Konnan after the NWO beat down all of the Filthy Animals. The Filthy Animals move on.
Scott Hall no-shows, Scott Steiner swerves everyone and joins NWO2K to sub in for Hall in a tag title tournament.

1/3/2000: Terry Funk is appointed commissioner, helps David Flair and Crowbar beat Nash/Steiner for the tag belts. Bret Hart is attacked backstage by Sid Vicious. Sid Vicious is attacked by the NWO.

1/6/2000: The NWO continue their feud with Terry Funk, David Flair, Arn Anderson, and Sid Vicious. A still-not-fully-recovered from Goldberg's concussion kick Bret Hart faces Funk in a hardcore match for the world title.

1/10/2000: Terry Funk recruits Larry Zybysko and Paul Orndoff to fight the NWO.
Terry Funk sets up Jeff Jarrett in a series of matches for the night, and declares the main event will be Nash vs. Hart.
-- Jarrett vs. George the Animal Steele with special guest referee Chris Benoit. Benoit costs Jarrett the non-title match.
-- Jarrett vs. Tito Santana, Benoit (and Orndorff) interfere to cost Jarrett his second non-title match.
-- Jarrett vs. Jimmy Snuka, Benoit and Orndorff (and Zybysko) interfere to cost Jarrett his third non-title match of the night.
-- Having done three matches with old guys and getting diving headbutted by Benoit at least thrice, Jarrett gets a concussion.
-- Hart vs. Nash ends when Arn Anderson runs in to attack both men, allowing Sid Vicious to come in and powerbomb Hart and pin him while Arn counts to three. Sid Vicious does not win the title as a result.
-- Terry Funk brands Kevin Nash.

1/12/2000: The Souled Out PPV is still advertised as having the following matches:
-- Bret Hart vs. Sid Vicious for the WCW World Title
-- Jeff Jarrett vs. Chris Benoit for the WCW US Title

1/16/2000: Neither Hart nor Jarrett are cleared to wrestle. Both vacate their titles.
-- Scott Steiner has not been cleared to wrestle for any of this time. This leaves Kevin Nash as the only active NWO2000 wrestler.
-- Nash and Funk have a match where if Funk wins, the NWO disbands. If Nash wins, he becomes commissioner and Funk is fired.
-- Nash wins.
-- Benoit and Sid have a match for the vacant World Title. Benoit wins.

1/17/2000: Benoit leaves the company and is stripped of the world title, making it vacant again. Commissioner Nash gives Jarrett his US title back.

1/24/2000: Sid Vicious wins the vacant world title when Jeff Jarrett's guitar-based interference backfires.

That was basically the end of it. Just barely over a month and that one month span involved Goldberg/Hart/Jarrett (and maybe Nash at the very end?) getting injured, Hall getting injured/no-showing, Benoit quitting, and Scott Steiner coming back before he was cleared to wrestle to not really do anything. It was truly a perfect Vince Russo/late WCW storyline.

fart blood
Sep 13, 2008



Benne posted:

He hosed up his back and had to retire

drat, that young? Thatís a shame.

RZApublican
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.


Having to watch Jarrett wrestle an early 2000s George the Animal Steele and Jimmy Snuka in two separate matches on the same night sounds like a special kind of hell.

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

Edge & Christian posted:

I had forgotten just how incredibly snakebit the NWO 2000 angle was, to the point that it really seemed like the universe just didn't want the New World Order.

12/07/1999: Bret Hart and Goldberg beat Creative Control for the world tag titles, are challenged to a match by Hall and Nash.

12/13/1999: Hall and Nash beat Hart and Goldberg for the tag titles, continue to feud with both men to build up a world title match between Hart and Goldberg.

12/19/1999: Bret Hart wins a title match against Goldberg at Starrcade in a match where Roddy Piper is the guest referee and Piper *may* have screwed Goldberg in a remake of the Montreal Screwjob. Bret gets a bad concussion from Goldberg in this match.

12/20/1999: Bret Hart gives Goldberg a rematch, but Hall/Nash/Jarrett run in and NWO 2000 is born! They are poised to feud with Goldberg and Roddy Piper.

12/23/1999: Roddy Piper disappears. Goldberg decides to legit punch out the window of the NWO's limo, severely injures his arm, is out of action.

12/27/1999: Sid Vicious is slotted into Goldberg's feud with the NWO. Bret Hart gives Jerry Flynn a title shot and the NWO gangbeats him, leading to Tank Abbott running off the NWO. Abbott moves on.
Jeff Jarrett wins the US title from Konnan after the NWO beat down all of the Filthy Animals. The Filthy Animals move on.
Scott Hall no-shows, Scott Steiner swerves everyone and joins NWO2K to sub in for Hall in a tag title tournament.

1/3/2000: Terry Funk is appointed commissioner, helps David Flair and Crowbar beat Nash/Steiner for the tag belts. Bret Hart is attacked backstage by Sid Vicious. Sid Vicious is attacked by the NWO.

1/6/2000: The NWO continue their feud with Terry Funk, David Flair, Arn Anderson, and Sid Vicious. A still-not-fully-recovered from Goldberg's concussion kick Bret Hart faces Funk in a hardcore match for the world title.

1/10/2000: Terry Funk recruits Larry Zybysko and Paul Orndoff to fight the NWO.
Terry Funk sets up Jeff Jarrett in a series of matches for the night, and declares the main event will be Nash vs. Hart.
-- Jarrett vs. George the Animal Steele with special guest referee Chris Benoit. Benoit costs Jarrett the non-title match.
-- Jarrett vs. Tito Santana, Benoit (and Orndorff) interfere to cost Jarrett his second non-title match.
-- Jarrett vs. Jimmy Snuka, Benoit and Orndorff (and Zybysko) interfere to cost Jarrett his third non-title match of the night.
-- Having done three matches with old guys and getting diving headbutted by Benoit at least thrice, Jarrett gets a concussion.
-- Hart vs. Nash ends when Arn Anderson runs in to attack both men, allowing Sid Vicious to come in and powerbomb Hart and pin him while Arn counts to three. Sid Vicious does not win the title as a result.
-- Terry Funk brands Kevin Nash.

1/12/2000: The Souled Out PPV is still advertised as having the following matches:
-- Bret Hart vs. Sid Vicious for the WCW World Title
-- Jeff Jarrett vs. Chris Benoit for the WCW US Title

1/16/2000: Neither Hart nor Jarrett are cleared to wrestle. Both vacate their titles.
-- Scott Steiner has not been cleared to wrestle for any of this time. This leaves Kevin Nash as the only active NWO2000 wrestler.
-- Nash and Funk have a match where if Funk wins, the NWO disbands. If Nash wins, he becomes commissioner and Funk is fired.
-- Nash wins.
-- Benoit and Sid have a match for the vacant World Title. Benoit wins.

1/17/2000: Benoit leaves the company and is stripped of the world title, making it vacant again. Commissioner Nash gives Jarrett his US title back.

1/24/2000: Sid Vicious wins the vacant world title when Jeff Jarrett's guitar-based interference backfires.

That was basically the end of it. Just barely over a month and that one month span involved Goldberg/Hart/Jarrett (and maybe Nash at the very end?) getting injured, Hall getting injured/no-showing, Benoit quitting, and Scott Steiner coming back before he was cleared to wrestle to not really do anything. It was truly a perfect Vince Russo/late WCW storyline.

nah that's not quite complete, the angle somehow limps along until the reboot in April, plus you end it at the best part

Souled Out:
- Jarrett was to wrestle Benoit three times on the show for the US title with 3 stips (Dungeon match, Bunkhouse Brawl, Cage match). So with Benoit/Sid being rescheduled to as the ME, they instead randomly stuck Billy Kidman having to wrestle 3 times instead. This is what led to the infamous Malenko/Kidman catch as catch can rules match where Dean in his final match in WCW DQs himself in 5 minutes. (Kidman would win the second match against a leaving Perry Saturn and then lose to The Wall and a temporarily leaving Shane Douglas)

1/25/2000:
- It turns out on Thunder that Sid pinned the wrong Harris brother
- Nash gives himself the title instead
- Nash then books a 3 way cage match between himself, Sid, and the other Harris for the title and Sid can only pin Nash for the title
- Sid chokes Nash out with the crippler crossface and wins the title for the 2nd time in 24 hours.

1/31/2000
- Nash randomly gives Commissioner powers to Jarrett
- Jarrett books a 6 man tag match with him and Sid later, and after copious interference Jarrett pins Sid

2/1/2000
- Sid beats the Harris brothers in a handicap cage match
- Also this is the show where DDP wrestles The Machine

2/7/2000
- Sid pins Scott Hall after Jeff Jarrett his Hall with a guitar

2/8/2000
- Nash books Jarrett and Hall in a match and Sid/Funk vs the Harris brother
- Harris brothers pin Terry after a JJ guitar shot
- Hall/Jarrett goes to a no-contest after refs start attacking each other

exploded mummy
Sep 10, 2008

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

- Incubus



Doctor Rope

RZApublican posted:

Having to watch Jarrett wrestle an early 2000s George the Animal Steele and Jimmy Snuka in two separate matches on the same night sounds like a special kind of hell.

Snuka concussed Jarrett with the Supafly Splash from the top of a cage. In 2000.

The American Dream
Mar 1, 2007
Don't Forget My Balls

Lol triple h just announced JJ is in the hall of fame.

Randaconda
Jul 3, 2014



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...l-of-fame-class

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.


D.N. Nation posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2zcyNsX5E0

They remixed the nWo song to make it sluggish and way less cool and, welp, that's nWo 2000 for ya. Also there was some meta nonsense about "the writers" and Russo sorta being behind it all but not but maybe and, and, and

That's not the theme they used in 2000. This song in particular is something they made for the nWo Japan CD and it appears on a bunch of the video games because they were too cheap to license the real song.

Smoking Crow
Feb 13, 2012

*laughs at u*


1st AD posted:

That's not the theme they used in 2000. This song in particular is something they made for the nWo Japan CD and it appears on a bunch of the video games because they were too cheap to license the real song.

this might not be the right theme but i want it to be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geCOQaQbjXw

pathetic little tramp
Dec 12, 2005



how did i never know that jarrett had a gimmick where he dressed up as surfer sting to piss off crow sting

ecavalli
Nov 18, 2012



Feels Villeneuve posted:

are there any wrestlers who were possibly unfairly hurt by the perception of nepotism


I've heard it applied to Greg Gagne and early-career Dustin Rhodes, were there any others?

Greg Gagne was hurt entirely fairly. He was legit awful and never improved to even a passable level.

pathetic little tramp
Dec 12, 2005



Watching old WCW ppvs to see Jarrett poo poo because I wasn't into wrestling at that period, and it is astonishing in how many PPVS the announcers would just kind of catch up to the rules as the match went along. Goldberg just wrestled a handicap match (a squash main event, amazing) and pinned one guy. The bell rang and Goldberg kept on wrestling the other guy to which the announcer confusingly says "well i guess he has to beat both guys!" That happened in like 6 out of 10 matches of what i'm seeing. "wow tony he hit him with a lead pipe in full view of the referee, is this a no dq match? (it wasnt)"

oatgan
Jan 15, 2009



there's a best of 5 tables match between shane douglas and the wall where the announce team spends the entire match arguing about whether you need to put your opponent through 3 tables or 5 tables to win that is just astonishing to listen to

Shiki Dan
Oct 27, 2010

If ya can move ya toes ya back's fine


The best part is the botched ending where Wall is supposed to go through 3 tables stacked on top of each other at once and only breaks through 2.
The commentary team pretends he went through 3 anyway and the match ends.

*Repressed memory returns*

**This match was actually at the GAB 2000 PPV, and isn't even in the top 5 dumbest things on the show

Shiki Dan fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2018 around 06:06

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

pathetic little tramp posted:

Watching old WCW ppvs to see Jarrett poo poo because I wasn't into wrestling at that period, and it is astonishing in how many PPVS the announcers would just kind of catch up to the rules as the match went along. Goldberg just wrestled a handicap match (a squash main event, amazing) and pinned one guy. The bell rang and Goldberg kept on wrestling the other guy to which the announcer confusingly says "well i guess he has to beat both guys!" That happened in like 6 out of 10 matches of what i'm seeing. "wow tony he hit him with a lead pipe in full view of the referee, is this a no dq match? (it wasnt)"
For a while, WCW tried to get this idea going where "the refs take their cues from the wrestlers," like the wrestling was basically mediated gang warfare, so it was as if every match was No DQ, and it made sense for a guy doing a run-in to pin a guy and win the match. Like the refs were just sort of overseeing which side had effectively dominated the other. They never actually followed through and established this new milieu, and I'm pretty sure people hated it anyway, so it was just a confusing mess.

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Pinstripe Hourglass
Nov 27, 2008

=RIVER PEOPLE=
Ay yi yi! We look
like... cartoons!


New York Rules

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