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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


They were also capible of pissing away talent. I mean they had Hall Nash The Undertaker HHH etc... Before they were anything in the WWF

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I
Aug 4, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post


FishBulb posted:

They were also capible of pissing away talent. I mean they had Hall Nash The Undertaker HHH etc... Before they were anything in the WWF
Well, they had The Diamond Studd, Vinnie Vegas, 'Mean' Mark Callous, and Terra Ryzing.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

GOP posted:

1988-1992 were the best WCW years.

The in ring product at the time was leaps and bounds better than anything else in America. But I my vision may be clouded because that was the wrestling I first started watching when I got into wrestling as a kid.

I will give you 88 and 89. 89 is one of the best years a wrestling company has ever had. But in 1990 they had a lot of bad shows. In 1991, they had a mix of bad shows and good shows. They also had one of the worst PPVs of all time. In 1992 they had a good first half and an AWFUL second half.

This was also the period where they gutted Starrcade adding in stupid gimmicks which meant too many matches, or matches that just didn't have hope of being good like Battlebowl.

In 1992 in the WWF you had WWF Champions: Ric Flair, Randy Savage and Bret Hart. Hogan and Warrior spent long stretches of the year out of the ring. They were trying to bring good workers to the forefront, out of necessity and because they wanted to. You don't get Bret vs Shawn headlining a PPV if you don't want to try new things even after an injury forces your hand.

In terms of potential as a mature wrestling product, I think WCW had the advantage in those years. But every time they'd get something going they'd shoot themselves in the foot in the early 90s.

MassRafTer fucked around with this message at Jan 1, 2010 around 09:52

Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


FishBulb posted:

They were also capible of pissing away talent. I mean they had Hall Nash The Undertaker HHH etc... Before they were anything in the WWF

I was really speaking more to the mid-to-late-90s, where they mostly featured the talent they had signed, even if it was in the midcard and not the main event.

Of course, this is generally speaking - they undoubtedly blew countless opportunities to inject new life into the main event scene and blew it. Still, they had the talent there to blow, and that is about as twisted as a positive can get, which really embodies WCW to me.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Rodney the Piper posted:

Luger was never a good worker, but he was a convincing worker, wasn't absolutely horrible and had a good look, and that's what got him over.

Luger was a good worker prior to his accident.

Matlock
Sep 12, 2004

Childs Play Charity 2011 Total: $1755


MassRayPer posted:

Nitro in 97 was indeed incredible. One of my fondest memories of wrestling will always be JJ Dillon asking Sting what he wanted and Sting not speaking. Instead he pointed his bat at a fan in the crowd with a sign that read: "JJ: STING WANTS HOGAN!"

obvious staged sign, but that's hilarious and awesome

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


Matlock posted:

obvious staged sign, but that's hilarious and awesome

Knowing WCW, I'm surprised they didn't stage the guy in the wrong spot, so Sting ended up pointing at a Disco Inferno sign or something.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

While it could have been staged, there were so many HOGAN FEARS STING and STING WANTS HOGAN and other Sting vs Hogan type signs in the crowd that I've never really thought it was a plant.

Karmine
Oct 23, 2003

If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine.


MassRayPer posted:

While it could have been staged, there were so many HOGAN FEARS STING and STING WANTS HOGAN and other Sting vs Hogan type signs in the crowd that I've never really thought it was a plant.

Yeah but what fan would address their sign specifically to JJ Dillon?

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


MassRayPer posted:

While it could have been staged, there were so many HOGAN FEARS STING and STING WANTS HOGAN and other Sting vs Hogan type signs in the crowd that I've never really thought it was a plant.

Kind of like when Chris Jericho would always find a guy holding a sign up talking about him when walking to ringside and would rip it apart. There were always tons of Jericho signs so its entirely possible it wasn't a plant.

Back in 1997, you didn't have to plant signs to gain heat.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Karmine posted:

Yeah but what fan would address their sign specifically to JJ Dillon?

Because they were doing a series of angles where JJ tried to get Sting to come back and tell WCW what he wanted.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


Lone Rogue posted:

Kind of like when Chris Jericho would always find a guy holding a sign up talking about him when walking to ringside and would rip it apart. There were always tons of Jericho signs so its entirely possible it wasn't a plant.

Back in 1997, you didn't have to plant signs to gain heat.

My favorite instance of this was the Nitro when Tony was talking about how awesome their fans signs were and said "Hey look at that one! Hogan is Cartman's father!" as he was oblivious to the connotations of the sign.

Dead Snoopy
Mar 23, 2005


Bck in 1997, they weren't the sign Nazis the WE eventually became

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Dead Snoopy posted:

Bck in 1997, they weren't the sign Nazis the WE eventually became

WCW let ANY sign in and really tried to encourage fan participation in different ways.

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

To the point that fans started rushing the ring.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

LividLiquid posted:

To the point that fans started rushing the ring.

Well, that was more of an unintended consequence of running an angle where plants rushed the ring and not realizing other fans might be encouraged. But they were big on signs and fans throwing trash and Nitro parties and what they did in line. There were so many weeks where WCW would show the fans lining up for Nitro just to show it and I don't remember seeing that happen much anymore.

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


MassRayPer posted:

But they were big on signs and fans throwing trash
I'll say, there was one famous moment when Bischoff (after joining the nWo) was on his way to the ring and as the cameras were rolling, he got pelted with a drink, at least a good third of which ended up all over his biker jacket.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

Someone on THE BOARD posted a bunch of youtube links to WCW's greatest moments a couple days ago so I should share.

Rick Steiner chats with Chucky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwFnnQeD4po

White Castle of Fear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRsgDudT7D4

The Giant, Son of Andre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvCwKxAWsU

MONSTER TRUCKS!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfcwkQ5mavo

I have NO IDEA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzljhO4-crM

Vince Russo Shoots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APcCE6IdmmU

PlasticSpoon
Apr 2, 2004


MassRayPer posted:


MONSTER TRUCKS!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfcwkQ5mavo


The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.

Nut Bunnies
May 24, 2005



Fun Shoe

Seriously, watch the shows from back then. It's a goddamn SEA of signs.

Although most of those are "Oh my god you killed _______! You Bastard!" or related to Jerry Springer/Howard Stern

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


PlasticSpoon posted:

The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.



I think the funniest part about this is imagining how much money it cost.

They had to get both those trucks, get them on the roof of a building, pay for all those charges, somehow get that ariel view, buy the rigging to allow the Giant to fall from the roof safely, etc. It had to have costed close to a million dollars.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at Jan 2, 2010 around 11:04

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

PlasticSpoon posted:

The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.

Because if he landed in the river a tsunami is headed towards the arena and they are all dead.

Pneub
Mar 12, 2007

I'M THE DEVIL, AND I WILL WASH OVER THE EARTH AND THE SEAS WILL RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF ALL THE SINNERS

I AM REBORN


PlasticSpoon posted:

The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.

They're internet *insert interest* fans; they find something insignificant to latch onto, then make a big loving deal about it.

battlemonk
Dec 10, 2008


Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

I think the funniest part about this is imagining how much money it cost.

They had to get both those trucks, get them on the roof of a building, pay for all those charges, somehow get that ariel view, buy the rigging to allow the Giant to fall from the roof safely, etc. It had to have costed close to a million dollars.

For what it's worth, The Cobo Center has a rooftop parking lot, which is where the monster truck thing was staged. The side that The Giant fell off of actually has another roof area about 15 feet down, which is where they set up the crash pads and what have you for him to land on. There's a good 50-100 feet to the river from there, and all of the Detroiters in the audience would probably have known that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._of_Detroit.jpg is a great visual of this. The circular thing that looks like the top of a battery is the Cobo Arena, the parking area to the left of it is where the monster truck match happened.

Von Dozier
Jul 10, 2009

by Peatpot


PlasticSpoon posted:

The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.

This

For some reason, people think jumping into a body of water from any height is the ultimate safety blanket, but hitting water from a height can basically kill you as much as hitting concrete would.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

I don't think people make a big deal of it, they just find it funny. The text doesn't really bring across the absurdity of the situation and the acting which is loving hilarious.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Von Dozier posted:

This

For some reason, people think jumping into a body of water from any height is the ultimate safety blanket, but hitting water from a height can basically kill you as much as hitting concrete would.

It's just more plausible for Giant to fall into the Detroit River and survive than Giant falling into a parking lot. That's all.

However, surviving either and walking to the ring fine after? Just plain ridiculous.

Dario the Wop
Oct 11, 2007

Hell-Sent, Heaven-Bent

Another reason I love that particular moment (Heenan facepalming) is it used to happen all the time. Seriously, ALL THE TIME. Go watch WCW from the mid/late '90s, and listen to Heenan trying to work with Schiavone or Bischoff (mainly the former). They're improvising, as they should, but there were so many times that Heenan would say something in character, and Schiavone would shoot him down with no wit, nothing but an annoyed "Shup up, Lamebrain!" Seriously, Heenan used to give that guy so many openings and Schiavone had no idea how to work with him. As time went on, it really did bring Heenan's game down, he stopped caring and a few times sounded drunk on commentary.

It's really sad, but WCW would've brought wrestling to another level had management been able to get people to understand they all had to work together. Everyone really was in it for themselves.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


I hated Schiavone back in the day, but seriously I'd love even a half rear end Tony Schiavone over Michael Cole, what Mike Tenay has become and Todd Grisham at times. He had a great voice, he could fake excitement well and just seemed like a sports broadcaster.

Maybe it's the memories, but listening to him on old Nitro's and then going back to Raw or Impact? Ugh.

Von Linus
Apr 6, 2006
I complete me.

Dario Delfino posted:

Another reason I love that particular moment (Heenan facepalming) is it used to happen all the time. Seriously, ALL THE TIME. Go watch WCW from the mid/late '90s, and listen to Heenan trying to work with Schiavone or Bischoff (mainly the former). They're improvising, as they should, but there were so many times that Heenan would say something in character, and Schiavone would shoot him down with no wit, nothing but an annoyed "Shup up, Lamebrain!" Seriously, Heenan used to give that guy so many openings and Schiavone had no idea how to work with him. As time went on, it really did bring Heenan's game down, he stopped caring and a few times sounded drunk on commentary.

It's really sad, but WCW would've brought wrestling to another level had management been able to get people to understand they all had to work together. Everyone really was in it for themselves.

Yeah, I was listening to a few things with Schiavone and Heenan on WCW together, and Schiavone was just a stinkyhole. Whatever about Michael Cole not being a very good announcer, he doesn't just exude rudeness and unprofessionalism like Schiavone did. I got the impression that Heenan was trying and that Schiavone either couldn't or wouldn't try to do a good job. I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be in character or what.

tzirean
May 1, 2007



Von Linus posted:

Yeah, I was listening to a few things with Schiavone and Heenan on WCW together, and Schiavone was just a stinkyhole. Whatever about Michael Cole not being a very good announcer, he doesn't just exude rudeness and unprofessionalism like Schiavone did. I got the impression that Heenan was trying and that Schiavone either couldn't or wouldn't try to do a good job. I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be in character or what.

Schiavone was a fine announcer right up until about when Bischoff took over the company. Schiavone felt he was more qualified (probably) and could have gotten the spot (ehh), and decided he just hadn't been playing politics enough. So he started playing.

It didn't do him any good at that point, just made him a worse announcer and made Brain and Tenay hate him. Okerlund got along fine with him, probably because Mean Gene wasn't doing commentary, but even though he likes him, he's since freely said things like "everything that Heenan and Tenay said about Tony is both true and Tony's fault."

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...


Schiavone hated Heenan. According to Bobby, Schiavone held him and Jessie Ventura responsible for getting him released from his short run with the WWF. Ironically enough he would end up working with both in WCW. Tony and Tenay didn't get on well backstage either down purely to Tony thinking that Tenay was '[Schiavone] ten years ago.'

He did get in some good calls along the way though, and when he wasn't in full on shill mode could call a match far better than any of the other WCW play by play guys. He actually sounded like a legitimate sports broadcaster which made him stand out from anyone else in the industry. On the other hand he often said a great deal of stupid things that undermined this.

Von Dozier
Jul 10, 2009

by Peatpot


I always thought Schiavone was alright, considering the massive amount of bullshit he had to announce in the later days of WCW.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...


Schiavone's high point was his comentary on one of the first Sting vs Flair matches. He was on fire that night having done all his homework on the history of both men and their careers to that point. He even recognised spots before they did them and added a great deal to the match. He also has one of the all time great calls to his name in 'Hulk Hogan, you can go to hell.'

In the end he stayed in the industry for too long, past the point where he was bitter and jaded with the promotion and his place in wrestling. He seems a lot happier calling baseball now. That said his one night run in TNA as a heel was fun.

The Croc
Dec 19, 2004

But First...We train!

Schiavone was always in business for himself in regards to politics, i know a big crome in wrestling. But thats one of the big things against him in that he would happierly bury people to get ahead. But then pretty much any top draw in wrestling History has done the same.

Personally if he did say come to the WWE he'd be in the top 3 of announcers WWE have on Shows atm.

Free Market Gravy
Sep 17, 2005



Tenay/Schiavone/Heenan was actually a great commentary team. Not perfect, due to a lack of chemistry, but great nonetheless. You had Heenan to provide color (and there was none better), Schiavone could sell the match when he wasn't being yelled at by Bischoff to sell whatever the main storyline of the promotion was, and Tenay sat silent except to share that the first ladder match was held in 1895 in rear end Lick, Iowa for the Global Worldwide Championship Professional Wrestling Promotion, etc. Best of all, no one talked over each other. It was usually improved and yet it usually sounded like a rehearsed script.

Yeah, everyone jokes about BACK BRAIN LEG KICK and poo poo, but until Madden joined commentary and it all went downhill, WCW's commentary really wasn't bad at all and I'd gladly take it over the WWE's commentary now.

Consider it your diamond in a septic tank.

OK, cubic zirconia in a septic tank.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA

I liked the nWo era WCW announce team a lot. I especially liked that on Nitro you had guys switching in and out through the broadcast. So you didn't get sick of hearing someone after 2-3 hours straight. The Larry-Tony-Tenay team had a different flavor than the Heenan-Tony-Tenay team.

Dario the Wop
Oct 11, 2007

Hell-Sent, Heaven-Bent

I really liked Larry on commentary. Even when he'd say things like, "you can't trust the Japanese, they have seven hearts!"

Von Dozier
Jul 10, 2009

by Peatpot


Free Market Gravy posted:



Yeah, everyone jokes about BACK BRAIN LEG KICK and poo poo, but until Madden joined commentary and it all went downhill, WCW's commentary really wasn't bad at all and I'd gladly take it over the WWE's commentary now.


Madden's only redeeming quality was him not being able to hold back bashing Russo's lovely storylines and angles

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Mister E
Oct 2, 2006

by exmarx


I can't truly fault any announce team with The Brain on commentary. Then again I would have listened to him watching paint dry so I'm kind of biased.

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