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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Dario the Wop
Oct 11, 2007

Hell-Sent, Heaven-Bent

I want to preface this post by saying I loved WCW.

With that said, here's some moments that come to mind when I think of it, courtesy of DDT Digest:







I'll post some more in the picture thread.

Dario the Wop fucked around with this message at Jan 4, 2010 around 09:58

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Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?


I think my favorite WCW angle was the whole thing about Disco Inferno trying to join the nWo. There was a real quality to it.

For weeks, Disco Inferno acts like he's going to be inducted to the nWo. He'd be interviewed backstage and act like Nash and Hall would be waving to him off-screen. He'd do matches to prove he was good enough, only to go up against guys like Bam Bam and lose. During the first Goldberg vs. Nash match, he tries to interfere on Nash's behalf, but gets Speared. Overall, it looked like he was nothing more than a loser who wasn't on their radar.

A couple weeks later, Disco wins a singles match and Scott Hall comes out with a mic. He says that he appreciates what Disco was trying to do and that he was trying to help out the Wolfpack. Rather than ignore his efforts, the Wolfpack look out for their friends. Hall and Disco walk off together to discuss his future with the nWo.

For a while, Disco works as Hall's sidekick, but the rest of the time he'd be wearing the black and red while hanging out with Stevie Ray's nWo B-Team.

Ah, Stevie Ray. Now HE was an awesome commentator.

The B-Team had a fantastic little angle where Ernest "The Cat" Miller came into the ring to pull off a generic promo about how great he is. Backstage, the B-Team (and Disco) are watching and decide to mess with him. One of them shouts out, "Yo, Scott! The Cat's in the ring and he's calling you out!"

Scott Norton rushes out with shaving cream all over his face, enraged. He watches the TV for a second, then rushes to the ring, where he absolutely flattens the Cat. A week later, the Cat does a promo about how much Norton sucks. Again, the nWo B-Team yell, "Scott! Cat's making fun of you again!" Rinse, repeat until Cat finally gets a win at the next PPV.

Wheresmy5bucks
Feb 10, 2007

So, where is it?

Disco may be an idiot, but WCW always seemed to handle him well as someone who everyone just hated, to the point he somehow became a lovable loser.

I remember a World War 3 set of promos where everyone was asked who they'd eliminate first and most people said Disco.

He was a mediocre wrestler, but dammit, he had a stupid character and he played it really well. Glen Gilberti should be in the same breath as the Undertaker and Kane(Undead 1900s Mortician and Brother of Undead 1900s Mortician) and making gold out of what should have been pure poo poo. I mean, his gimmick was he liked Disco Dancing....really?

oldpainless
Oct 30, 2009



Everhbody liked Disco Inferno. Even now, at work, if we talk about when "wrestling was good" we always have to brign up Disco Inferno. I mean, he was never a main eventer or anything but at least he was entertaining in a good way, which is more that I can say about much of WCW toward the last 2 and a half years or so.

Also, for the pics that were posted, Nash is looking at Hall with a face that says "Seriously? Really? Puke? On TV? TOO SWEEEEETT!!"

The Norman Smiley pic probably shouldn't be up there as Smiley was like Disco in that he wasn't a top guy but everyone seemed to like him and he was one of the few that, despite the stupid storylines he was in, was always fun to watch. Also, he had a cool bodyslam where he kind of threw them farther, if that makes sense.

The best part of Shirtless Scott Hudson is he is still wearing the tie.

Lastly, does anyone know who Mark Madden is anyway and why he got a commentator spot in Nitro at all?

Mr. Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007



Norman Smiley was one of my favorite wrestlers for reasons really unknown to even me after I first watched a match where I think he was just jobbed out. The combination of the name, the fact that he was smiling for most of his match and then when he started doing ridiculous dances and hamming it up - it just 'worked' somehow and made the guy really likable.

Disco Inferno was also hilarious for reasons that have already been mentioned. I must have missed the angle with Scott Norton and The Cat but it sounds pretty drat funny.

Hudson
Jun 1, 2004

Beneath the surface lies the future.


Gavok posted:

Smiley would have matches with guys like Bam Bam Bigelow and would bask in the knowledge that Glacier had his back.

I love this haha.

Mister E
Oct 2, 2006

by exmarx


Mr. Carlisle posted:

Norman Smiley was one of my favorite wrestlers for reasons really unknown to even me after I first watched a match where I think he was just jobbed out. The combination of the name, the fact that he was smiling for most of his match and then when he started doing ridiculous dances and hamming it up - it just 'worked' somehow and made the guy really likable.

Norman Smiley was the greatest Hardcore champion of all time and I'll hear nothing to the contrary.

Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


I loved Disco & Smiley. Both were just entertaining in their gimmicks and the little time given to them.

Gavok posted:

The B-Team had a fantastic little angle where Ernest "The Cat" Miller came into the ring to pull off a generic promo about how great he is. Backstage, the B-Team (and Disco) are watching and decide to mess with him. One of them shouts out, "Yo, Scott! The Cat's in the ring and he's calling you out!"

Scott Norton rushes out with shaving cream all over his face, enraged. He watches the TV for a second, then rushes to the ring, where he absolutely flattens the Cat. A week later, the Cat does a promo about how much Norton sucks. Again, the nWo B-Team yell, "Scott! Cat's making fun of you again!" Rinse, repeat until Cat finally gets a win at the next PPV.

Oh man, I can't believe I missed this. It sounds absolutely perfect.

Skinty McEdger
Mar 9, 2008

I have NEVER received the respect I deserve as the leader and founder of The Masterflock, the internet's largest and oldest Christopher Masterpiece fan group in all of history, and I DEMAND that changes. From now on, you will respect Skinty McEdger!



Rodney the Piper posted:

Oh man, I can't believe I missed this. It sounds absolutely perfect.

For you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qHYVHJZKs

nyratk1
Jul 24, 2006

by Tiny Fistpump


Goddamn, that's a loving awesome and simple storyline idea.

Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


nyratk1 posted:

Goddamn, that's a loving awesome and simple storyline idea.

No kidding. Thanks for the video, Skinty.

That video reminded me that I also liked Norton because he just looked like he would murder people.

Daniel Bryan
May 23, 2006

GOAT


2 weeks later:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIE1...feature=related

Featuring Disco in the nWo.

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?


Thanks for these clips, but man, I could have sworn there was one segment where he came out from the back while in the midst of shaving. Maybe they did this a third time.

Mr. Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007



Great clips, thanks for posting those. I love the look on Norton's face that said "What? I don't have time to destroy some jobber right now. Oh god drat it. Alright, be right back."

ColeM
Dec 23, 2007
New User Alert!

Karmine posted:

The two were feuding at the time of his death and the next Monday night they showed an "in memory of graphic" and then later on in the show Schiavone said something about "our thoughts and prayers are with his family etc" and then Zbysko said "I'd let you know how I felt about Spicolli but out of respect to his family I'll keep my mouth shut."

Wasn't that because WCW wouldn't let him break kayfabe?

Matlock
Sep 12, 2004

Childs Play Charity 2011 Total: $1755


Skinty McEdger posted:

For you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qHYVHJZKs

At 1:58, some guy kisses his belt

LividLiquid
Apr 13, 2002

BITCOIN BATMAN

Mister E posted:

Norman Smiley was the greatest Hardcore champion of all time and I'll hear nothing to the contrary.
"I am so hardcore I once drank milk two days past expiration."

So awesome.

CVagts
Oct 19, 2009


Norman Smiley had one of the all-time greatest segments when he and Ralphus invaded that backyard wrestling fed.

Dragging Iron Feet
Nov 10, 2007

by T. Finn


CVagts posted:

Norman Smiley had one of the all-time greatest segments when he and Ralphus invaded that backyard wrestling fed.
I had totally forgotten about this until you mentioned it. That segment owned hard.
Seriously, Norman Smiley was all kinds of awesome when he'd do poo poo like come out and defend his hardcore title dressed in football pads (complete with helmet).
Surprised no-one has mentioned the BOOGIE KNIGHTS team of Disco Inferno, Alex Wright and the DISCO DUCK! Also when Disco was part of the Filthy Animals stable and changed his name to the Hip-Hop Inferno. I will always have a special place in my heart for Glenn Gilberti. Seriously, poo poo like when the "Last Dance" was a standing figure-four and he would always forget how to do the manouver and Disco would pull out a piece of paper with instructions on how to perform the move. Disco Inferno owned hard!

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Anyways, to get back to the central poll of the thread, Hulk Hogan killed WCW.

WCW died and had no chance of ever recovering at Starcade 1997. They lasted for quite awhile after that, but there wasn't any real hope of them having a resurgence after that night, it was the end of WCW, conceptually, and it ruined all of the subtext of the nWo angle, and resulted in a company whose fans had no reason to care any longer.

Since the start of Wrestlemania and Hulkamania WCW (I'm going to refer to it that way even though it was other companies before it started being WCW, its just easier) was the second wrestling company, the also ran, the other guys. They had less of a production budget, WWF had all the biggest stars, and the flashiest product, but WCW did what it could and continued to exist, never really being a huge threat to Vince's machine but always being there, as an alternative or a supplement to it depending on what you wanted out of it.

When Hall and Nash showed up on Nitro it was the start of an angle that had so much subtext it reached out and spoke to WCW fans in a way that no other angle could. Hall and Nash were WWF wrestlers, they represented the WWF as a whole, and although it was never stated outright, the implication of their representation of the WWF was strong enough that Vince sued them over it. When they started messing with WCW matches on Nitro it was as if the WWF was there, stomping on WCW in person, instead of just as they had been as a company since everything started. It was a direct extension of the realities of the two companies.

Then Hulk Hogan joined them. There is no person that would more represent WWF wrestling than Hulk Hogan, he defined it and they still use his formula to this day. It literally was the WWF vs WCW on TV, and much like in the real world, WWF was winning.

This is the most compelling angle you could come up with, it was 20 years of history in the form of a wrestling ring. WCW brought Hogan in to compete with WWF, it was a coup, but he never materialized the way they wanted him to as a face, because to the WCW fans he represented everything they didn't like about the WWF, now he was transformed into the villain they already considered him.

But it just got too big, they brought more people into it, and people that weren't formerly connected to the WWF, and it diluted the subtext, but it was still there enough for it to be relevant.

But the real representation of this WCW vs WWF subtext was in the Sting/Hogan storyline. Sting was WCWs babyface and the representation of the company, and Hogan represented the WWF, and they were going to eventually meet in a match and it would represent the entire concept of the two companies being in competition in the microcosm of the ring.

And they hosed it all up. Sting should have beaten Hogan, clean, in the middle of the ring, gently caress, Hogan should have submitted to the Scorpion Death Lock, that was what the fans wanted, it was the only way to end that angle, that feud, that would leave the fans happy it was the underdog, the home team, beating the Yankees in the world series. Instead the Yankees won and everyone went home sad.

Hogan hosed it all up by not jobbing clean to Sting like he should have. I know he wasn't the booker, but is there any doubt that the finish of that match wasn't dictated at least in part by Hogan? Yeah they wanted to bring in Bret and make a big deal out of him, that was a fine idea, he was all over the news at the time, but involving him in the match just ruined the finish. Hogan's ego crushed the dreams of seeing WCW finally come out on top of the WWF both figuratively and literally.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


yes yes, goonsay.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


To me, Starrcade 97 gave the WWF the opening to get back in the war.

Starrcade 98 and the Fingerpoke a week later stabbed the company in the gut and caused it to bleed out for 2 years.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


MassRayPer posted:

To me, Starrcade 97 gave the WWF the opening to get back in the war.

Starrcade 98 and the Fingerpoke a week later stabbed the company in the gut and caused it to bleed out for 2 years.

Yeah it was the thing that killed them, it just took them awhile to bleed out from it, it ruined the energy, how can you recover from having the guy that is supposed to represent everything about the company being beaten by a guy that represents everything about the other guys?

They stuck around for awhile but it was over.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


FishBulb posted:

Yeah it was the thing that killed them, it just took them awhile to bleed out from it, it ruined the energy, how can you recover from having the guy that is supposed to represent everything about the company being beaten by a guy that represents everything about the other guys?

They stuck around for awhile but it was over.

If Goldberg hadn't emerged they probably would have been slowly killed by the slow fast count. But with Goldberg emerging they managed to create a star that kept them hot enough to stay competitive until early 99.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


MassRayPer posted:

If Goldberg hadn't emerged they probably would have been slowly killed by the slow fast count. But with Goldberg emerging they managed to create a star that kept them hot enough to stay competitive until early 99.

Yeah Goldberg helped them out he was 'the new hope!' essentially but they killed him with lovely finishes too.

I guess Goldberg could have beaten Hogan and ended the nWo later, that might have worked, but still Starcade 97 was the pits.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


FishBulb posted:

Yeah Goldberg helped them out he was 'the new hope!' essentially but they killed him with lovely finishes too.

I guess Goldberg could have beaten Hogan and ended the nWo later, that might have worked, but still Starcade 97 was the pits.

The scary thing is WCW had a chance to close the WWF's window in 1998. When Bischoff heard they wanted to bring in Tyson his immediate thought was to sign Tyson himself. But when he heard Vince offered him 3 million he figured there was no way he could recoup that money and decided to let Vince dig his own grave.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


FishBulb posted:

yes yes, goonsay.

No I absolutely agree, the nWo represented an invasion of "WWF" into WCW, and the nWo vs WCW angle was essentially WWF vs WCW in a way that was never explicitly stated but that everyone understood on some base level. The only way that angle should have EVER ended was Sting beating Hogan clean in the middle of the ring to "save" WCW. It is a travesty that this did not happen, and I agree that it was this that eventually lead to WCW bleeding out and dying.

It's really ironic that Hogan, Hall and Nash were later bought into the WWF essentially representing what WCW had become - parasitic infections that destroyed a company from within.

Nut Bunnies
May 24, 2005



Fun Shoe

Starrcade 97 wouldn't have been nearly awful if they had kept the title on Sting. Didn't they strip him like 2 weeks later?

Sydney Bottocks
Oct 15, 2004

Eh.


MassRayPer posted:

To me, Starrcade 97 gave the WWF the opening to get back in the war.

Starrcade 98 and the Fingerpoke a week later stabbed the company in the gut and caused it to bleed out for 2 years.
I think that's a great analogy. WCW from that point was basically Mr. Orange in "Reservoir Dogs".

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Captain Charisma posted:

Starrcade 97 wouldn't have been nearly awful if they had kept the title on Sting. Didn't they strip him like 2 weeks later?

Yeah, on the first Thunder.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Grandpa Pap posted:

I think that's a great analogy. WCW from that point was basically Mr. Orange in "Reservoir Dogs".

Bret: gently caress you Hogan I'm not a plant from WWF!
Hogan: You are a plant!
Russo: No he's not you bald bastard!
Hogan: Don't call me bald!
Everyone shoots on everyone else, company collapses.
Bret: Ru.... Russo..... I am a plant from WWF....
Russo breaks down into sobbing, camera pulls away and we hear a final worked shoot go off.

jeffersonlives
Jul 22, 2007

"Mathewson pitched against Cincinnati yesterday. Another way of putting it is that Cincinnati lost a game of baseball."


There's a vintage episode of Thunder currently playing on SPIKE TV.

nyratk1
Jul 24, 2006

by Tiny Fistpump


jeffersonlives posted:

There's a vintage episode of Thunder currently playing on SPIKE TV.

I thought Hogan usually didn't show up on Thunder?

Rodney the Piper
Sep 19, 2005

family sticks together


nyratk1 posted:

I thought Hogan usually didn't show up on Thunder?

After the first few months, none of the established main eventers did.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Following Bret Hart's debut in WCW after the Montreal Screwjob, WCW didn't run a live event in Canada in all of 1998.

Granted when they did it was the Toronto Nitro where Jericho gave the "CANADA SUCKS!" speech and Bret Hart wore body armor to defend against the spear, so they are somewhat forgiven.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


MassRayPer posted:

Following Bret Hart's debut in WCW after the Montreal Screwjob, WCW didn't run a live event in Canada in all of 1998.

Granted when they did it was the Toronto Nitro where Jericho gave the "CANADA SUCKS!" speech and Bret Hart wore body armor to defend against the spear, so they are somewhat forgiven.

I don't forgive them. One because I'm Canadian and second, Bischoff and others have stated that the three biggest reasons for bringing Bret to WCW was:

1. They were starting WCW Thunder and wanted top stars to work exclusively or almost exclusively on Thunder to give the show its own feel and appeal

2. To open up Canada to World Championship Wrestling and give them a lot of easier shows to do. At the time, Canada's dollar was low so running in Canada cost a lot less. There was also a feeling that taking Bret from the WWF could heavily damage Canada for the WWF, which the WWF if you noticed in 1996 and 1997 was using a lot more than usual.

3. To steal another star from Vince.

In the end, the least important part of having Bret Hart ended up being their eventual reasoning for having him. Just to steal a guy from Vince.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA


Didn't Vince have exclusive contracts with most of the arenas in Canada though like he does with MSG?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


Moose Bigelow posted:

Didn't Vince have exclusive contracts with most of the arenas in Canada though like he does with MSG?

I doubt he would have bothered, but even if he did they could have tried running Olympic Stadium in Montreal and done amazing business in 1998.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Moose Bigelow posted:

Didn't Vince have exclusive contracts with most of the arenas in Canada though like he does with MSG?

I don't know about that, but places like Edmonton and Calgary were hurting for cash in the late 90s. They would have ripped up the exclusive contract to fill their arenas up an extra night of the week.

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Hudson
Jun 1, 2004

Beneath the surface lies the future.


I wonder whatever happened to that Women's Title that Madusa dropped in the trash.

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