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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

RC and Moon Pie posted:

Arn Anderson is another who always looked old.

He's 24 here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRXbh1vBv8

What the gently caress was up with older generations of wrestlers looking like weathered sailors from birth. My dad is two years younger than Arn Anderson and he looks younger now than Arn does in that clip

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Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer


This is dialogue from a back alley in Planescape Torment

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Aesop Poprock posted:

What the gently caress was up with older generations of wrestlers looking like weathered sailors from birth. My dad is two years younger than Arn Anderson and he looks younger now than Arn does in that clip
This is what you look like when your job involves driving around the country eating at Waffle Houses and taking drugs so you can work longer.

MrBling
Aug 21, 2003

Oozing machismo

here's a fun match for the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEsl7BMzsLs

It has Eddie Gilbert, Barry Windham, Ric Flair and a MYSTERY MAN.

SatansOnion
Dec 12, 2011



not that I actually needed to be convinced that Ricky Steamboat MR. X, the mysterious masked man, is considered legendary for good reasons, but that match makes a succinct and awfully damned compelling argument for him

e: which is supposed to be my way of thanking you for sharing this. Thanks for curating the good stuff here

Admiral Joeslop
Jul 8, 2010






Windham wearing his kneepads below the knee, and generally anyone not wearing any at all, give me anxiety. You're gonna regret it!

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

Wrestlers without kneepads/shoes has always looked insanely wrong to me which is weird cause I have also watched MMA for the past 20 years

smikey
May 22, 2004
It's not a hootenanny, it's an extravsganza!

Aesop Poprock posted:

Wrestlers without kneepads/shoes has always looked insanely wrong to me which is weird cause I have also watched MMA for the past 20 years

MMA guys don't necessarily do moonsaults, frog splashes, knee drops or elbow drops from the turnbuckle/top of the cage

Majinfoose
Jul 26, 2007

Most likely to commit galactic genocide.



smikey posted:

MMA guys don't necessarily do moonsaults, frog splashes, knee drops or elbow drops from the turnbuckle/top of the cage

If they did I'd probably enjoy MMA.

Aesop Poprock
Oct 21, 2008


Grimey Drawer

smikey posted:

MMA guys don't necessarily do moonsaults, frog splashes, knee drops or elbow drops from the turnbuckle/top of the cage

I think I have literally seen an MMA fighter do every single one of those things

Maybe not a frog splash

overmind2000
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.



smikey posted:

MMA guys don't necessarily do moonsaults, frog splashes, knee drops or elbow drops from the turnbuckle/top of the cage

Well, not in American MMA at least

overmind2000 fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 19, 2020

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible




WCW ... ahead of its time

https://twitter.com/TheAVClub/statu...7088108549?s=20

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?




He should just change his name to Ed Lover.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So Flair was one of the best ever but was he just a freak at how well he could go and for how long? I'm re-listening to the Retro shows and they're just burying how old poor Roddy and Hogan are and it's just the saddest thing to see them in the ring...in 1996. Flair was older than either of them and was an active in ring superstar and having good matches for maybe another decade?

I just always got the feeling wrestlers from that generation started to fall apart in their 40s on average, maybe due to steroids or drugs or the old Territories schedule or all of the above and more.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



NikkolasKing posted:

So Flair was one of the best ever but was he just a freak at how well he could go and for how long? I'm re-listening to the Retro shows and they're just burying how old poor Roddy and Hogan are and it's just the saddest thing to see them in the ring...in 1996. Flair was older than either of them and was an active in ring superstar and having good matches for maybe another decade?

I just always got the feeling wrestlers from that generation started to fall apart in their 40s on average, maybe due to steroids or drugs or the old Territories schedule or all of the above and more.

Flair is kind of like Jeff Jarrett (wait, come back, i'm going somewhere with this!) in that both worked in ways that allowed them to have really long careers. They never took stupid bumps, they weren't high-flyers, things like that. Obviously you're still asking a lot for your body to stay in decent enough shape, but they gave themselves the best chances they could.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.




Grimey Drawer

I also wonder if the look Flair went for had something to do with it, like he was probably using many substances but he never got as ridiculously jacked as Hogan or Savage. Went for more of a "fighting trim" look.

And of course Piper was wrestling post-hip-replacement-surgery which was not gonna go well.

Better Than You
Apr 23, 2010



Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Flair is a gifted athlete, but his style and conditioning had a lot to do with it. Reportedly he did a lot of calisthenics and was a cardio freak.

There's a marked difference between the larger-than-life stars of the 80s and the stars whose peak was just a few years earlier. Not nearly so many people dying of heart attacks in their 40s and 50s.

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

Fundamentals as sound as the WNBA


DJExile posted:

Flair is kind of like Jeff Jarrett (wait, come back, i'm going somewhere with this!) in that both worked in ways that allowed them to have really long careers. They never took stupid bumps, they weren't high-flyers, things like that. Obviously you're still asking a lot for your body to stay in decent enough shape, but they gave themselves the best chances they could.

Jarrett's in ring career fell apart at the same point Hogan's did. Maybe a couple of years after. He did not age well compared to guys like Flair, Casas, Atlantis, Bockwinkel, Nagata, Liger, etc.

Flair did not have a huge steroid physique and that's one reason he lasted longer. Piper specifically had his hip go out which turned him from a good worker to completely immobile. Flair avoided those catastrophic injuries. Flair took lots and lots of bumps, and was a high workrate guy. He was very lucky in that he avoided those injuries. Atlantis is a good example as he was really good until his mid 50s, suffered a major knee injury, came back early and never recovered. Prior to the lockdown he was semi-retired.

Hogan was never a high workrate guy, was heavy into steroids and his body broke down, and in his mid 40s he basically only worked with guys his age who didn't do a lot at that point. The only exception was Flair who still did a lot. Hogan was a more gradual decline from not great to bad.

oh but seriously I
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

flair broke his back early in his career so he bumped on his side rather than taking flat back bumps which everyone in The Business sees as super-safe but seem to gently caress you up in the long term. i am totally unqualified to speculate on this but i present as supporting evidence 7,000 year old luchadores who took rolly-polly bumps and can still "go" in some kind of sense

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




I've often struggled to understand why, when a lot of basic wrestling moves have their roots in jujutsu/judo, there aren't more basic side breakfalls in wrestling.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004

OM NOM NOM NOM NOM



Fun Shoe

Wasn’t flair notorious for having a hard night of partying and then being up at 7am anyway to spend an hour on the stairmaster, even into his 50s?

TheKingslayer
Sep 3, 2008

There are no men like me. There's only me.





Someone on the Legends of Midsouth Wrestling DVD set talked about how Flair had partied all night and shown up half dead to the locker room. So the wrestler in question was pissed because this was supposed to be his big moment with the NWA champ and Flair partied all night and screwed him...

Then he goes on to say Flair came out after a pot of coffee and ran him ragged for 60 minutes in a great match.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Halloween Jack posted:

This is what you look like when your job involves driving around the country eating at Waffle Houses and taking drugs so you can work longer.
thats also my dad's job, though

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



TheKingslayer posted:

Someone on the Legends of Midsouth Wrestling DVD set talked about how Flair had partied all night and shown up half dead to the locker room. So the wrestler in question was pissed because this was supposed to be his big moment with the NWA champ and Flair partied all night and screwed him...

Then he goes on to say Flair came out after a pot of coffee and ran him ragged for 60 minutes in a great match.

I love this and very much want to see the match

E: MisterBling found it, It was Terry Taylor and it's a fuckin fantastic story.

DJExile fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Sep 24, 2020

Two Beans
Nov 27, 2003

dabbin' on em

Pillbug

SLUM KING posted:

Wait is Damaja like “Damager”

Is that what his name was supposed to be

Yep, and its not original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYYSlCa3xfw

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So did Hogan actually bribe Nick Patrick to not fast count at StarrCade '97? I just don't understand.

I do understand greed is almost by definition irrational and self-destructive but this was his biggest match since Warrior or even Andre. I can't fathom what he was thinking. He wasn't going to "lose" anything at all, he was gonna make a huge payday in one of the most iconic wrestling moments of all time.

And people call Bret a mark.....

Doc M
Jan 6, 2011

I enjoy metal because of its dark, creepy, intense aesthetic.




NikkolasKing posted:

I can't fathom what he was thinking.
I'm assuming "gently caress the story! The Hulkster's gotta go over, brother!"

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?



NikkolasKing posted:

I can't fathom what he was thinking.

He saw what shape Sting was in and realized, "I'm not putting that over."

The American Dream
Mar 1, 2007
Don't Forget My Balls

Doc M posted:

I'm assuming "gently caress the story! The Hulkster's gotta go over, brother!"

The Hulksters not gonna lose cleanly to a jobber like sting, brother.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



I could see WCW wanting to do their own version of Montreal because they're WCW, and frankly I could also see Nick just loving up and forgetting to fast count. 1996 had so much Heel Nick Patrick combined with Nick just being a standard ref to call regular matches that he routinely hosed up doing normal counts when he was supposed to do fast ones and vice versa. The original Souled Out had a lot of that.

Better Than You
Apr 23, 2010



According to an interview with Sid I heard a while back, the reason he left the WWF after his first run there was because Hogan threw a giant shitfit after the '92 Rumble. Sid told the higher-ups that he was done after WrestleMania VIII because he couldn't work in a company where Hogan's childish behavior was enabled (or something along those lines).

Coincidentally, the crowd reaction after Hogan's elimination and during the post-match were the first signs that fans were getting sick of Hogan.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



lol i forgot they edited the poo poo out of that ending

wiki posted:

The Royal Rumble match helped begin Justice's slow-building turn into a villain. Justice – who was returning from a recent injury – entered at No. 29 and was among the final four wrestlers, along with Hogan, Randy Savage and Flair. Justice eliminated Savage and then Hogan, leaving himself and Flair in the ring. During the initial live pay-per-view broadcast, Justice's elimination of Hogan was loudly cheered by the audience in attendance even though, as per storyline plans, Sid "sneaked up from behind" to throw Hogan out. As such, the original reaction was edited out of future television replays as well as the Coliseum home video release of the event, with play-by-play announcer Gorilla Monsoon adding new comments condemning Sid for his actions (Monsoon had originally said Justice's elimination of Hogan was fair). Hogan, who was still at ringside after being eliminated, grabbed Sid's arm and distracted him long enough for Flair to eliminate him to win the match and become the new WWF World Heavyweight Champion. After the match, Sid and Hogan got into an argument in the ring and had to be separated by security.

Better Than You
Apr 23, 2010



Yep, 12-year-old me watched that PPV live and noticed them edit in Monsoon's new comments when they would air that footage in the following weeks on syndication ("That jerk Sid just eliminated Hogan from behind!!").

Hogan was always a cowardly heel but the WWF did a drat fine job of conditioning impressionable kids to adore him (even though that really wasn't a tall task to begin with).

Ganso Bomb
Oct 24, 2005

turn it all around


I was at that Rumble live and even as a 9 year-old kid I knew Hogan was being a giant crybaby and booed him for pulling Sid out.

ChrisBTY
Mar 29, 2012

this glorious monument



NikkolasKing posted:

So did Hogan actually bribe Nick Patrick to not fast count at StarrCade '97? I just don't understand.

I do understand greed is almost by definition irrational and self-destructive but this was his biggest match since Warrior or even Andre. I can't fathom what he was thinking. He wasn't going to "lose" anything at all, he was gonna make a huge payday in one of the most iconic wrestling moments of all time.

And people call Bret a mark.....

It caused Sting's title reign to hit the ground flat on its face and killed his momentum. Hogan got the belt back two months later while Sting hosed around as Chessman to enable the nWo civil war. It's some next level politicking.

Speaking of Hollywood vs Wolfpac: you'd think with how much people talk about how bloated the nWo was they'd be able to support a schism. But hold on, at this time...
~ Syxx was out of the company
~ Scott Hall couldn't stay sober long enough to be an asset
~ Then Randy Savage got injured.

The nWo was, amazingly, absolutely hosed on Star Power outside of Hogan and Nash at this time. No wonder they had to poach Sting, Luger and The Giant to make the drat thing work.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



The nWo got to be such a mess that Chris Jericho ouright turned down joining

He made the right call

Super Dan
Jan 26, 2006



DJExile posted:

I could see WCW wanting to do their own version of Montreal because they're WCW, and frankly I could also see Nick just loving up and forgetting to fast count. 1996 had so much Heel Nick Patrick combined with Nick just being a standard ref to call regular matches that he routinely hosed up doing normal counts when he was supposed to do fast ones and vice versa. The original Souled Out had a lot of that.

If they wanted to do Montreal, I don't know why they didn't just go all-in on it. Have Hogan put the Scorpion Deathlock on Sting, then have the ref and/or Bischoff declare that Sting tapped out, only to have Bret re-start the match.

Better Than You
Apr 23, 2010



The ending to Sting/Hogan pretty much doomed Bret's WCW run. He restarted the match after a normal count from Patrick because he didn't want another Montreal Screwjob, which made him look like a chump because Sting lost clean.

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Tato
Jun 19, 2001

DIRECTIVE 236: Promote pro-social values


I don't really trust much of anything Hogan or Bischoff say or the reasons for things going the way they did. The rest of that PPV was also god awful with guys like Nash refusing to show up and job. Just a terrible PPV for what was supposed to be WCW guys finally getting some victories.

That said....Sting really did look like poo poo that night.

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