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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


quote:

The Goldberg incident was a part of something so dumb people could not believe it at the time. Leading up to the PPV, Russo promised a HUGE surprise at the Great American Bash, something so big that Vince McMahon could do nothing about. People speculated they were buying ECW. People speculated about an ECW/WCW invasion. People thought it might be cross-promotion with Japan.

Instead, Goldberg turned heel.

I can remember IGN wrestling seriously speculating that Russo was going to announce that he would get rid of rings to cross promote the WCW Backstage Assault game. People thought he was that retarded, even at the time.

I don't think that people are entirely fair toward WCW sometimes. People look back and act like WCW was a joke for years, but they were doing OK, until 1999. Even if you go back and watch those late 1998 shows, they're not bad television. This company was still perfectly viable well into the first few months of 1999. It was in no way a joke. Bischoff hit the panic button in Spring 1999 and basically had to be pulled because he was going apeshit. No one knew the Russo was borderline retarded when they first brought him in. If they had replaced Bischoff with a better booker, and kept spending in check, it is plausible that things would have turned around eventually. It was only during 2000 that WCW was a total crap shoot with no hope of return. Even in 2001, people were saying things could turn around. WCW had some pretty drat good shows in early 2001.

TNA =\= because WCW was legit the number one wrestling company in the world at one point.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Dec 31, 2009

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Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I think that AWA in the late 80s/early 90s was worse than WCW in 2000, but it's pretty close. AWA had a turkey on a pole match, WCW had a viagra on a pole match. WCW in the year 2000 is a festering pool of poo poo. It's started out with Kevin Sullivan booking shows like it was 1993/94 all over again. Then we got the New Blood crap. The only good things about WCW in 2000 to the best of my recollection was a decent Scott Stiener/Booker T feud when Stiener could still walk, and Lance Storm's run. WCW managed to get Storm super over in 2000.

The Bash at the Beach thing was pretty crazy because everyone thought it was real at the time, then they ran it into the ground with "Bash at the Beach shocked you! New Blood Rising will rock you!" The New Blood story line had ended by the time the New Blood Rising PPV took place.

2001 was actually pretty good, because the cruiserweight division mounted a semi comeback. The trouble is, no one cared anymore, it was just too little too late. It started with an awesome six man ladder match at Starcade 2000, and they actually managed to keep the ball rolling in the cruiserweight division until the WWF bought WCW. I actually remember Greed, WCW's last Pay Per View, being shockingly decent, and getting pretty good reviews. They introduced the cruiserweight tag titles and had this big tournament, and were starting to sign guys like AJ styles and Christopher Daniels. I actually recall Kid Kash having a great match on the last Thunder, though I may be wrong, that was some time ago.

*Edit* Here's a Greed review. And another. There were lovely matches on the card, but the Cruiserweight stuff and the main event were all worth watching. I think 4 good matches, 2 average ones, and 4 lovely ones warrants a passing grade, unlike nearly everything WCW did in 2000.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Dec 31, 2009

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


WCW went on a Cruiserweight hiring spree in the winter of 2001. They hired him like a week before they closed and he had one match.

Here's what wikipedia says:

quote:

On March 21, 2001 Kid Kash signed with the WCW where they billed him as Kash. Less than a week later WWE and Vince McMahon purchased WCW, and wanted to keep Kash on through a renegotiation of his contract, which would have cut his wages considerably.

*Edit* Apparently it was Jason Jett vs. Kid Kash.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Dec 31, 2009

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Jason Jett's wikipedia article is hilarious.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


crankdatbatman posted:

Considering what a number of you have said about how WCW was great and just had a bad period in 2000 was a decent company the rest of the time, I kind of believe the opposite: that WCW was a pretty lousy company that two or three good years around 1996 and 1998. Before that, you had JCP, which lost a ton of money and was going to go under before Turner bought it out. You had Herd, then Watts, both who were jokes close to the level of Russo. The hiring of Hogan (WCW's alleged big coup) after the big steroid scandal and lovely movies he produced was extremely shortsighted; and his reception was lukewarm at best, with Bischoff having to pay people to attend the big welcoming parades at Universal Studios or wherever. THE ALLIANCE TO END HULKAMANIA.

Finally, the signing of Scott Hall and Kevin Nash ignited the best years in WCW via the start of the nWo (an idea Bischoff stole from Japan) that also coincided (something I don't think can really be ignored) with WWF's damage caused by the steroid/sex scandal. While nWo was great in the beginning, it went on way too long and also ignited the very real problem of the old guys running the show and getting terribly excessive contracts. The end of Bischoff's reign as a successful booker came about probably around the time that he told his wrestlers he would sue Ric Flair out of the company for not attending some shows. After that you have 99, Russo, and so on...

In other words, WCW may not have been as terrible as it was in 2000, but it sucked...a lot, like the OP suggests. It was more of a hot period for a weak company that capitalized on the changing times/disillusion with post-scandal WWF.

I think that the only thing anyone's trying to argue is that WCW wasn't the joke people try to make it out to be nowadays, not that it was a five star match factory. It was pretty much the only legit competition that the WWF had since the mid 80s, and that in itself pretty much legitimizes it as a promotion.

It was also leaps and bounds ahead of what TNA is today, the year 2000 excepted.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Dec 31, 2009

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


PlasticSpoon posted:

The quote isn't in the video. But why do people make a big deal of the Bischoff quote

Heenan: Which side did he fall off of?

Bischoff: Well theres a river and a parking lot what difference does it make"

I mean, from that far up and in kayfabe, either side is lethal.



I think the funniest part about this is imagining how much money it cost.

They had to get both those trucks, get them on the roof of a building, pay for all those charges, somehow get that ariel view, buy the rigging to allow the Giant to fall from the roof safely, etc. It had to have costed close to a million dollars.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Jan 2, 2010

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I'm actually surprised that WWE or TNA didn't pick up Scott Hudson. He's not the greatest of all time or anything, but he was downright decent in WCW.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Not only that, she also had her massive implants removed.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


CombineThresher posted:


Stupid as it was, it did get Raven over and hiring a porn star was perfect for those two. Raven has said in shoot interviews that he was amazed at how well fans responded to those stupid vignettes that he thought would sink his career.

Don't know if it's been posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSC2inxFn5Y

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Giedroyc posted:

Currently watching Nitro episodes from late 96 since I didn't watch it at the time. Highlight of the current episode was Jeff Jarrett vs Rick Steiner that ended when "sting" walked in only for to be clotheslined and pinned for the victory?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kQScaWCpew 4 mins in

The sad thing about this kind of thing is, while it wasn't the best idea for an angle ever, it would have been salvageable if it weren't for the retarded pin. It makes (kayfabe) sense that the nWo would have a fake sting to try and trick WCW guys into turning on the real sting, it makes sense that Stiener and Jarrett would be upset at having their match made a no contest by fake, but the loving pin makes no sense, and literally serves no purpose.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


God damnit, WWE. Please hire Scott Hudson.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


"I think he was going to cut his beard off with that knife!"

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Wouldn't DX be taken to court by the WWF as opposed to WCW? They were the ones under a contract with the WWF, not WCW.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Holy poo poo! Thank you for digging that up. I totally remember loving this when I was 14.

Shavonie and Brain are hilarious in this one.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I agree that Sullivan's booking was terrible, but wasn't it in Winter 2000, to early Spring 2000 that he was the head booker? You seem to be talking about things from 1999. I could very well be wrong.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Feb 7, 2010

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


AKA Driver posted:



- Kanyon vs. Buff Bagwell with his mother on a pole/forklift. Kanyon has DDP's music, for some reason. David Arquette has a run-in, tries to interfere, fails. Eats a Blockbuster and a Kanyon Cutter for his troubles.

Tp be fair, Positively Kanyon was an awesome gimmick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baCK0DXwkZU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blAHjuUhADE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiM8...feature=related

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Feb 15, 2010

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Sting, Hulk Hogan, The Ultimate Warrior, The Undertaker, Kane, Hornswoggle, and Goldust are not fictional characters.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


There is one major difference. WCW took under 2 years to sink, TNA has been doing this poo poo since 2006.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Ironically enough, throughout 1999 and 2000 WCW would traditionally see a ratings spike during Flair segments.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I believe the other guy was Paul London. They were at a restaurant, some guy was rude to the waitress, Benoit told London to say something. London went over, told the guys off, and the waitress started getting flirty with him.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


WCW would have spring breakout every year, and someone would always fall in the pool.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Vince Russo was "Vic Venom," editor of WWf magazine. I used to read it all the time.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Skinty McEdger posted:

If you have the Nitro which is just Mark Madden and Tony talking about how great Bischoff and Russo are, while also saying Nitro used to be good but now sucks, you are in for a very special treat.

On the best of Thunder show, they showed 20 minutes worth of material from 1998, and then jumped to Winter 2000.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


"Super Porky and his ham."

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


A lot of this kind of poo poo had to do with Hogan's "Creative Control." He'd make sure he didn't lose no matter who won. Same thing at Starrcade '97.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


I think people get it mixed up with the storyline where Goldberg had to recreate his original streak or be fired, and they would count every time he speared and jack hammered someone outside a match as a win.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


WWE would have a War Games, and the faces would win the coin toss.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Moose Bigelow posted:

TNA would have a War Games and the coin toss would actually be a reverse coin toss where you called it on the ground after it landed but you had to call what you thought it wasn't.

ROH would have a War Games and it would be an enjoyable and well booked wrestling match, but 15 people would see it.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


ChampRamp posted:

No, no, no. Isn't the match your describing that Raven match. Crow's Nest Match or something? Team Hogan vs. Team Flair was the last Lethal Lockdown. It was War Games in a cage basically.

Do you know what War Games is?



War Games in a cage is... War Games

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


mcmonkey posted:

I had a look at the 2001 WCW PPVs on wikipedia earlier today, they sound pretty good. Are they any good?

Russo was gone by early 2001, and the booking was done by a half decent booking committee. They weren't spectacular or anything, but they got the job done, and introduced the Cruiserweight Tag-Team titles. I would argue that most of those 2001 WCW shows are just as good as WWE's product today. Steiner was systematically taking out all the top faces, an the rumour is Goldberg was set to return and start a program around May, leading up to Starcade 2001. They were building Steiner up as this psychotic monster, who was basically killing people, and he was really getting over.

For example, at Greed, WCW's last PPV, he and Rick Steiner beat DDP until he passed out in the Steiner Recliner, and the next day on Nitro they held a mock funeral for his career.

Late 1999 and 2000 is when WCW REALLY sucked.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Mar 24, 2011

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Lone Rogue posted:

Think if the WWE gave us Rock vs. Cena on Raw instead of a PPV.

I think it's a little different because The Rock is not a regular member of the roster, like both Hogan and Goldberg were. It'd be more like giving the Undertaker vs. John Cena for the world title away on RAW for free.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


A lot of specialty channels have 12 or even 8 hour schedules that repeat throughout the day. I think that would be the best way to do a WWE channel. So, for example, you work out 8 hours of programming a day instead of 24, and then it runs through 3 times throughout the day. On Thursdays, for example, you could have a two hour jobberific block of Superstars, then a classic superstars from the 80s or 90s, a two hour block of AWA, an old episode of Thursday Night Smackdown, and a one hour legends round table. There's a day of programming without even breaking out the hours and hours of WCCW, WCW, and ECW stuff. One old PPV, or Nitro from 1999 would fill almost half a day of programming. Daunting, sure, but I think it's doable.

I think the biggest challenges are not cannibalizing your ratings when you have shows on other networks, and not over saturating the market.

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Apr 4, 2011

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


whatsabattle posted:

I don't understand (well I kind of do) why they don't just offer dvds of stuff that wouldn't be a huge seller (complete sets of Nitro/WCW PPVs/Best of Lenny and Lodi) and just burn them to order? If I could pay like I dunno 10 bucks for Spring Stampede 1999 or a dvd of every tv taping I went to in person, or Kevin Sullivan's Devil Worship stuff from Florida I would buy way more dvds than I currently do.

Am I an idiot, or does that make sense? List everything they have on the site, you pick X, Y, and Z, pay, and Joe the intern (or team of interns) go down, pull it all up, burn to a DVDR and mail it out. It would have to be profitable, wouldn't it?

There are a lot of factors at play here. WWE no longer has rights to some themes used in wcw, some of the tapes probably need to be restored, on top of the fact that they would risk cannibalizing current DVD sales. You also have to remember that there are some things WWE just don't want us to see again.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


It seemed really inconsistent too. He was Hollywood in late spring/early summer 2000, and came out to the Rockhouse theme.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Flameingblack posted:

I'm torn between the commentary on this match. The four guys in the ring (La Parka, Silver King, Ciclopse and Damien 666) are trying to put on a good hardcore match, but Tenay and Heenan are having the biggest giggle fit I've ever seen during a wrestling match.

It's like NXT, but somehow worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BksvEZ1o6ps

I remember that back in 99, I used to point to this match as why I liked WCW better than WWF. I think in the same week, you could watch both Raw and Nitro in Canada, because Nitro was aired on Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon, WWF featured a hardcore match where people were throwing popcorn at each other and some poo poo. In my 14-year-old mind, this blew that out of the water.


In typical WCW fashion, though, Macho Man got covered in a bucket of sewage by Nash earlier in the show, and it eventually led to the infamous white hummer storyline.

VSorry bout the edit

Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jul 15, 2011

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


1st AD posted:

As bad as the Nitro/Thunder games were, they were at least charming in an arcadey kind of way. Mayhem and Backstage Assault were the worst things I've ever seen. Mayhem was kind of cool in that it had a PPV code thing, but the problem was that the roster was incomplete and a ton of dudes were fleeing to the WWF, so there weren't more than 2 events that actually used it. Also it was one of the first games I can remember with a shitload of commentary, but the game was so bad it was hard to notice.

Backstage Assault was even dumber and I'm trying to block it from memory.

To be fair, when Mayhem came out it was actually a pretty decent game. It's just aged horribly. I'd say the same thing about WWF Warzone/Attitude.

I rented Backstage Assault when it came out, and actually thought I had rented an unfinished game. I thought I had somehow ended up with a beta version EA had accidentally sent to the rental place.

MassRayPer posted:

I could explain that but then I would have to explain why Hulk Hogan was on fire.

I love that intro, because it was like a Japanese interpretation of American wrestling. Loud senseless music, big trucks, and things on fire.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Uncensored 2000 was WCWs worst PPV beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's not one remotely passible match on the card.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


It's Hogan's loving "Apple Pie" strap match, that for some reason took place after the title match, that gets me.

Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


Not only that, but the real man thing is part of his shtick.

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Zack_Gochuck
Jan 3, 2007

Stupid Wrestling People


LividLiquid posted:

That never happened. The entire gimmick behind Sid's streak was how bullshit it was and even Tony said this every night. You're thinking of Goldberg's streak.

More specifically, they did this for Goldberg's second streak. There was a storyline where Goldberg had to break the original streak without losing a single match or he'd be fired. Every time he would spear or jackhammer someone, they would add it to the tally if it was in a match or not.

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