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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


ColeM posted:

Giving Hogan creative control was a stupid mistake!

Sure, but how else do you convince Hogan to come to WCW? Do you understand how important he was?

ColeM posted:

Second: Bring in his friends for easy money and title pushes.

This has nothing to do with creative control and everything to do with sway in the company.

ColeM posted:

Third: Due to the creative clause in his contract he could now refuse to job and put over anybody he didn't feel was 'big' enough(which was everybody).

Explain then the Luger one week switch, finally dropping to Sting and losing to Goldberg.

ColeM posted:

He had a ridiculous title reign which eventually led to one of the reasons why WCW fell. WCW couldn't do anything about it as due his creative clause and they then had to cater to his demands and they could not take him off of TV because of his ridiculous contract.

Hogan's long title reign was a good thing. It built up the emotion of the WCW side for the need to take down Hogan. If WCW was "winning the war" by beating Hogan for the belt every four months, the emotion would not have been there. Hogan having the belt for close to two years straight was a good booking decision.

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Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


BlazeKinser posted:

It might have been in theory, but in practice it really wasn't. They never really built anyone up as a strong enough challenger to take the belt from him, and whenever someone did start to gain steam eventually Hogan's ego pushed them back into the midcard where they were discredited. It wasn't a case of the rightful contender being screwed and cheated out of his chance to take the belt off Hogan month after month, it was the nWo stomping all over everyone to the point where 75% of the roster ended up being in an nWo splinter faction just so they would actually get some TV time that didn't involve jobbing out.

It wasn't as bad as how you make it sound. There was supposed to be a feeling of hopelessness, that the nWo ran the show and nobody could do anything about it. When guys like Piper and Luger got close (hell, Luger WON THE TITLE), the nWo found a way around it and took back their power. Sting was supposed to be Jesus to WCW and for someone in WCW to win the strap while Sting is supposed to make this big comeback against Hogan? It made no sense. Sting had to be *the* guy to finally get the job done and give fans the feeling that the tide turned. Technically they were right. The nWo was never the same after that.

Of course, the Sting vs. Hogan match was one of the biggest let downs due to terrible booking, a terrible finish and a sloppy way to keep Sting Champion. Sting became nWo only a few months after being saviour of WCW and Hogan got the strap once again. Everything up to Starrcade 1997 was absolutely fine booking wise (Aside from Hennig going to the nWo. What a bad move there). Starrcade 97 on was when things got stupid.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Coffey posted:

Nitro in '97 was the best wrestling EVER in my opinion. The nWo Vs. Sting storyline was absolutely on fire. I don't know a single person in real life that wasn't watching. It was crazy. I have never seen wrestling so mainstream and popular. poo poo owned.

Agreed. I watched it as a 12 year old and just thought it was good like Raw is War was good. Then I watched it on WWE 24/7 and every episode of Nitro was a fantastic show. You enjoyed everything. Even if you didn't like a wrestler, the storyline they were in was still probably good. And that was with removing a ton of Four Horsemen/Chris Benoit stuff.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Jerusalem posted:

The best thing about Blade Runner is that it's a loving awesome movie.

Agreed.

Amazing we took a picture of the Blade Runners and took it into the movie Blade Runner.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Coffey posted:

I remember reading one of the final straws for Jericho was when he found out that 4x4 (the big dude from No Limit Soldiers) was making more money than him.

I don't think that was a real issue. Jericho didn't show up on WCW Television much in 1999 because they knew he was going to the WWF and didn't want to use him. If 4x4 was making more money than him, that'd mean he was making $100,000+, which... isn't surprising.

I think the Goldberg squash (as in, not booking Goldberg to squash him) was the biggest one.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Supreme Allah posted:

But WCW was backed by crazy billionaire money and TNA is backed by I dont even know

Time Warner AOL: Publicly traded crazy billionaire money
Panda Energy: Private crazy billionaire money

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Dead Snoopy posted:

All those loving parades...not one assassination attempt. Talk about bad booking.

Mick Foley is going to shoot Hulk Hogan at the parade.

Shoot on.

I mean shoot on.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


An interesting fact to think about is that during Bischoff's run, the biggest losses for WCW to the WWF were Chris Jericho and The Giant. Two guys still around so yeah they were pretty big losses. The biggest losses during Vince Russo's run to the WWF was... ummm... Haku? The biggest loss during Kevin Sullivan's super short run as WCW booker? Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko and Perry Saturn all in one swoop.

I remember reading at the time that if the WCW brain trust had put their confidence in Terry Taylor at the time, things would have been a ton better. He booked WCW Saturday Night for a while and had a great rapport with the wrestlers. He was also very good at thinking up gimmicks and storylines for WCW. Would Terry have been great in a head booker spot? Maybe not, but he wouldn't have pissed anyone off royally and would have respected the midcard.

And Magic_Ceiling_Fan, was it Kid Kash or EZ Money/Jason Jett?

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

Jason Jett's wikipedia article is hilarious.

quote:

EZ Money is a thief. He took my money and promised to make my wrestling gear and have it to me in a couple weeks. Almost a year later, he still hasn't got my gear to me and will not answer any emails, phone calls or faxes regarding this situation. Don't let him rip you off!

I hope nobody edits it.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Rodney the Piper posted:

Luger was never a good worker, but he was a convincing worker, wasn't absolutely horrible and had a good look, and that's what got him over.

Luger was a good worker prior to his accident.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


MassRayPer posted:

While it could have been staged, there were so many HOGAN FEARS STING and STING WANTS HOGAN and other Sting vs Hogan type signs in the crowd that I've never really thought it was a plant.

Kind of like when Chris Jericho would always find a guy holding a sign up talking about him when walking to ringside and would rip it apart. There were always tons of Jericho signs so its entirely possible it wasn't a plant.

Back in 1997, you didn't have to plant signs to gain heat.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Von Dozier posted:

This

For some reason, people think jumping into a body of water from any height is the ultimate safety blanket, but hitting water from a height can basically kill you as much as hitting concrete would.

It's just more plausible for Giant to fall into the Detroit River and survive than Giant falling into a parking lot. That's all.

However, surviving either and walking to the ring fine after? Just plain ridiculous.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


I hated Schiavone back in the day, but seriously I'd love even a half rear end Tony Schiavone over Michael Cole, what Mike Tenay has become and Todd Grisham at times. He had a great voice, he could fake excitement well and just seemed like a sports broadcaster.

Maybe it's the memories, but listening to him on old Nitro's and then going back to Raw or Impact? Ugh.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Dario Delfino posted:

I really liked Larry on commentary. Even when he'd say things like, "you can't trust the Japanese, they have seven hearts!"

Well you see, it's like a human game of chess...

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


LividLiquid posted:

There is when it was working. I find the idea ridiculous and irritating, but talking about the nWo and promoting the upcoming main-event during a Lizmark Jr. Vs. El Dandy match didn't exactly ruin the show. Undercarders with angles were usually talked about. Jericho, Kidman, Mysterio, Guerrerro, Benoit and the like. The announcers rarely ignored them.

Basically, instead of having a segment where there was no wrestling that did nothing but put over the main-event of the evening, they would have a decent match on for the wrestling fans and would talk up the main-event in the commentary booth.

It sounds great on paper, actually, but I still found it tacky.

Scott Hall once explained that good wrestling doesn't need to be talked about, but storylines do. So if two wrestlers are working magic in the ring, the PBP has no need for calling move for move because they know the viewer is enraptured in it. It's a good time to cover things that do need talking about, and that's storylines.

It's not the greatest explanation for it, but it is an explanation.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:

I'm actually surprised that WWE or TNA didn't pick up Scott Hudson. He's not the greatest of all time or anything, but he was downright decent in WCW.

WWE tried him out on the Raw is Nitro episode with Arn Anderson.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


MassRayPer posted:

Following Bret Hart's debut in WCW after the Montreal Screwjob, WCW didn't run a live event in Canada in all of 1998.

Granted when they did it was the Toronto Nitro where Jericho gave the "CANADA SUCKS!" speech and Bret Hart wore body armor to defend against the spear, so they are somewhat forgiven.

I don't forgive them. One because I'm Canadian and second, Bischoff and others have stated that the three biggest reasons for bringing Bret to WCW was:

1. They were starting WCW Thunder and wanted top stars to work exclusively or almost exclusively on Thunder to give the show its own feel and appeal

2. To open up Canada to World Championship Wrestling and give them a lot of easier shows to do. At the time, Canada's dollar was low so running in Canada cost a lot less. There was also a feeling that taking Bret from the WWF could heavily damage Canada for the WWF, which the WWF if you noticed in 1996 and 1997 was using a lot more than usual.

3. To steal another star from Vince.

In the end, the least important part of having Bret Hart ended up being their eventual reasoning for having him. Just to steal a guy from Vince.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Moose Bigelow posted:

Didn't Vince have exclusive contracts with most of the arenas in Canada though like he does with MSG?

I don't know about that, but places like Edmonton and Calgary were hurting for cash in the late 90s. They would have ripped up the exclusive contract to fill their arenas up an extra night of the week.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


The biggest part about the Monday Night Wars is that it allowed you to pick what you wanted to watch. If Raw and Nitro were on at the very same time and you were watching Raw, if you didn't like a guy or a storyline or there was a commercial, you flipped to Nitro. And vice versa. This usually gave you a two hour wrestling show of what YOU wanted to see, no commercials.

This is why pro wrestling, even when making millions of dollars, had trouble getting sponsors. These sponsors were not dumb. The moment Raw had a commercial, even in its glory days, people would flip to Nitro to see what was going on there. Fortunately for the WWF, it was usually dogshit.

Being , we got Raw on Monday Night and Nitro on Tuesday night. There wasn't really a war. It was moreso wrestling all week. Mondays were Raw. Tuesdays were Nitro. Wednesday's were Thunder. Thursdays were Smackdown!. Fridays you could rent a wrestling tape. Saturdays and Sundays were a big combination of Worldwide/Saturday Night/Heat/Jakked/Metal/Shotgun and Superstars. We didn't get to miss the commercials by flipping to the other show.

I guess that's why I enjoyed last Monday so much. I got to feel what Americans got during the Monday Night War.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


I can't recall if it was a rumour at the time or fantasy booking in the late 90s, but I remember talk that Chris Jericho was supposed to be the leader of the nWo when it splintered and Hogan left (Which he did after the Warrior feud, and then left the Black and White nWo to make it a B team. There was talk of him leaving the nWo a lot in 1998). "nWo Express" was the name being passed around.

Again, I don't remember if it was legit or not. I just remember it in some forums in like 1998/1999.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Skinty McEdger posted:

They started the Jericho in the NWO angle by having the giant win him the TV title, and then look out for him in his first few title defences. According to Jericho's book, when Jericho told Bischoff he didn't want to join the group as he didn't want to be one of twenty guys standing around twiddling their thumbs in the background, instead of changing the booking they just kept the angle without ever explaining why the Giant would be looking out for Jericho even in favour of his NWO team mates.

"Did anyone change the script for Giant to stop helping Jericho?"
"Why, did it happen last week?"
"Yeah, Giant mentioned it happened again last week."
"Do you know where it's on today's show?"
"Well, we just changed the opening and main event four times. Do you want to change that?"
"I just want to do coke man."

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Jerusalem posted:

The answer is obviously that even back then, Big Show and Jericho knew they would be the best of friends forever and one day dominate the tag team world.

Back then, it was the former Champion Giant looking out for midcard sensation Jericho.

Last year, it was tag team Champion and legend Jericho looking out for plodding giant Big Show.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Jerusalem posted:

On some awards show a year or 4 back, Hogan came out to present an award and was cutting a promo Hulkster style when suddenly he cut off and said in a completely normal voice,"Why am I talking like Hulk Hogan?" and finished off the rest of the presentation in a completely standard voice. It was bizarre.

Dusty Rhodes speaking normally fucks me right up.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW



I raise you Space Ghost: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSaHgpfi-Fw

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


CombineThresher posted:

Or to be just a trifle more accurate, DDP and Bam Bam and their mascot, Kanyon.

edit: Raven and Saturn were an AWESOME tag team.

I liked the Jersey Triad. I had friends who bitched they were trying to be Triple Threat. Even then I laughed at the idea of DDP "trying to be" Shane Douglas.

Raven and Saturn was an awesome tag team. That WCW Tag Team Tournament they did with Raven/Saturn, Malenko/Benoit and Hennig/Windham (Raven/Saturn were not in the tournament but feuded for the belts after, resulting in the phenomenal Malenko/Benoit vs. Raven/Saturn match). Except it had a retarded bracket.

http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/...html#worldtag99

Benoit and Malenko get a second chance, and Horace Hogan and Byran Adams get *two* Semi-Final matches.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


It's a disappointment the matches were so short. Some of them sound like a lot of fun and it's a good idea in concept. In concept.

Bret vs. Saturn and Kidman are interesting matchups. I want to see Scott Hall vs. Lash LeRoux badly. Hennig/Jarrett must have been a fun match, even if quick.

I would like to see the WWE or even TNA do a monster sized tournament. No 8 Man Tournament. A big huge one where it engulfs the show into nothing but Tournament matches. We all love Beat the Clock, so I think this would be good in giving us an excuse to watch good wrestling matches.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Karmine posted:

This was what WrestleMania IV was and I don't care what anyone says, it was awesome

But yeah it would be more awesome now because there are a lot more good workers on the roster.

WWE Raw Tournament: Big Show, Carlito, Chavo, Chris Masters, Cody Rhodes, Evan Borne, Jack Swagger, John Cena, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, MVP, Randy Orton, Santino, Shawn Michaels, Ted DiBiase, Triple H. Boom. 16 Man Tournament.

WWE SD! Tournament: Batista, Charlie Haas, Chris Jericho, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler, Eric Escobar, Finlay, Jimmy Wang Yang, Kane, Luke Gallows, Matt Hardy, Mike Knox, R-Truth, Rey Mysterio, Great Khali and John Morrison. Again, 16 Man Tournament.

TNA Tournament: Abyss, D'Angelo DeNiro, Daniels, Desmond Wolfe, Dr. Stevie, Hernandez, Jay Lethal, Jeff Jarrett, Kurt Angle, Matt Morgan, Mick Foley, Raven, Rhino, Samoa Joe, Scott Steiner, Tomko and Sean Morely. Even this would be a drat good tournament.

Is there anyone who wouldn't want to see a Raw, Smackdown! or Impact consisting of eight matches, all tournament matches? Even if it ended up being Big Show vs. Chris Masters, Luke Gallows vs. Great Khali or Mick Foley vs. Raven in one of them?

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


If I remember correctly, this is the show where Bret Hart said Hogan was the Elvis of Wrestling while he was the Robert DeNiro of Wrestling.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


CVagts posted:

Oh my god this may have been the most hilarious thing to happen in WCW, and that's saying something.

The best part is that he was still the same loving Lex Luger afterward.

NO NO NO HE WASN'T.

He started wearing clothing with this weird fist logo.

TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Lamuella posted:

the thing I think that frustrates me most about WCW was this:

It could have been so good.

WCW in 1997 could possibly be the best wrestling year for any company. Including the WWF.

It was "so good", it just couldn't sustain it.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


LividLiquid posted:

It'd leave WCW in a lot of legal trouble, most likely. I don't think there's any legal precedent set for this kind of bizarre situation, but I doubt Vince would take it lying down and it would have made for a lengthy court case.

A lengthy court case for allowing WWF talent into a WCW building?

The truth is, what Triple H neglects, is the true legal trouble is what DX, who are WWF contracted talent, would say/do while on TNT television. There is nothing stopping them from sucker punching WCW talents, injuring staff or more importantly, saying vulgarities to the moon. What, was WCW going to put a camera on them but mute them?

And then, what about getting them out of the building? Not easy. It would have been absolute mess.

Great TV, but an absolute mess.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Golden Bee posted:

I don't think Hogan and Austin could work a good match, although I -would- like to see Austin kick the poo poo out of Hogan. They're really emblems of two different eras and seeing Austin hit by the big boot, I imagine he'd laugh, crack a beer and open a can of whup-rear end.

IT'S STILL REAL TO ME DAMNIT!

And then Cena Attitude Adjust's the icon of the Attitude Era.

RAPADOO FUCKER!

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


jeffersonlives posted:

The reason Goldberg/Hogan didn't even pop a real rating was because it had a 3 day build and no real storyline, they announced it on the prior week's Thunder. It was originally a dark non-title match.

It's interesting to wonder what kind of buyrate Hogan vs. Goldberg at Starrcade would have drawn. WCW could have kept the belt on Hogan, did the Warrior angle that popped ratings for a few weeks, had Hogan face DDP at World War 3, Goldberg wins WW3, and then Hogan vs. Goldberg at Starrcade.

I honestly believe the draw and hype of Goldberg winning the WCW World Title at Starrcade would have righted the ship in WCW for a little longer. Not beat the WWF, but at least get the ratings closer. It would have given fans that "hope" kick they got when Sting beat Hogan.

This is all my own speculation, of course. The truth is, a well booked WCW in 1998 and 1999 may have never beaten the WWF, but it would never have caused a 2 point ratings gap which soon turned into a 4 point ratings gap.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


The worst part of WCW's string of bad bookers is that they had Terry Taylor giving really good ideas underneath the head bookers and never getting a shot at the book himself.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


EricCrapton posted:

I could never get into the Wolfpack. I know they were over, but like many things in pro wrestling, I just didn't understand it. It consisted of mostly a bunch of middle aged guys trying to be hip and cool. I just didn't really understand the appeal of Kevin Nash wearing FUBU and throwing up gang signs and Sting dressing like a lobster.

At that point it was more 30 year olds. People forget that Shawn was in his thirties being a Degenerate.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Super Ninja Fish posted:

The reason there was a US title tournament for Storm to win is because of Russo coming back and stripping all the titles. Russo most likely gave Storm that push. What Russo giveth, Russo can taketh away.

If I remember correctly, Lance Storm's push was based on a Terry Taylor bet. He had very little to do with Vince Russo. Once Russo came in, I'm pretty sure that was when it was decide Jim Duggan had to join and that blonde would be kidnapped by Canada.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


EricCrapton posted:

Yeah but at least the original DX was pretty amusing and vulgar. When I saw Shawn and Hunter doing crotch chops and making dick jokes, I thought it fit them. When I saw Kevin Nash and Lex Luger and Sting walking down to the ring to rap music and trying to be hip, I thought it was goofy.

I'll give you Sting and Luger. Hennig too, he was there for a very short time. Nash, Macho and Konnan made sense. Oddly, so did Disco.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


MassRayPer posted:

Michaels in DX was 32.

Rick Rude was 39.

Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Lamuella posted:

Does anyone think that WWF owning WCW could have worked out better (for example if they'd had them as genuinely their own promotion rather than the weak bad guys led by the McMahon kids), or was there never any real chance of it not sucking?

Personally, I believe Vince would have put a lot more time into it had he not been doing the XFL.

One of the biggest issues with the acquisition of WCW was that Vince couldn't get Viacom to let him have another TV show or re-brand any of the current WWF shows into a WCW program. Much like Bischoff, Vince felt that WCW was dead in the water without television.

Another big problem was that most of the valuable guys the WWE acquired who wasn't sitting on a contract like DDP and Booker T did not want to be in WCW anymore. They wanted to be in the WWF.

Had Vince kept the two products completely separate, did not put money into XFL and spent it instead on Flair/Goldberg/nWo from the start and Viacom allowed a WCW show to have the weekend, it would have had the potential to be a huge success in my estimation.

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Paper Jam Dipper
Jul 14, 2007

by XyloJW


Sting said that it was watching how the WWF handled Booker T confronting The Rock (and I'm sure DDP's treatment as well by being Taker's bitch) that turned him off of signing with the WWF.

Had WCW come in, treated Booker T and DDP on par with the WWF headliners and actually tipped the scales in WCW's favour, I bet Sting would have signed and felt comfortable enough to be there. However, it didn't happen. There was a lot of ego involved.

I guess it is the one thing about the Legends of Wrestling roundtable about WCW that bothered me. Lawler, Hayes and co. were very adamant that WCW was trying to put the WWF out of business, out of jobs, out of a dream. However, that's exactly what the WWF did to WCW, and did it with a smile.

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