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I know I'm about a yea late, but I just want to weigh in on the New Blood Vs Millionare's Club Heel/Face thing. The New Blood were undoubtedly the heel's, that was my impression watching it at age ten and that was the impression I got when I watched the whole Russo run over again last year. That's not to say he didn't have the Millionar'es Club engage in heelish behaviour sometimes, but I think Russo was trying blur the line between black and white as ambiguity is always a central theme in Russo's work. I can totally understand though how people can view this all out of context and just think it's a WCW booking massacre, though. The whole era has a kind of volatile feel to it and saw Russo take a more ECW type approach to the heel/face dynamic and it seemed like to me in the end, Russo was happy to let the fans decide who to root for, it wasn't Russo's place to make value judgments about who they should be suppourting, in his mind it was his job to put together a story to get two guys in the ring together with an interesting enough story to get the fans interested enough to pick a character in the confrontation to side with, who this was is inconsequential to Russo because they are both the companies talant, win-win, right? Once again, it boils down to Russo being too post-modern for his target audience and executing it poorly, anyway. It's actually funny, when I was a ten year old watching Russo's second run, I always assumed I was missing giant plot chunks on Thunder which didn't air in Australia, which was the reason the plot seemed so erratic. How naive I was. LividLiquid posted:I don't really think anybody argues that Russo can set up the chess pieces. He's just never been able to make with the follow-through. I think this quote sums it up. Russo really needed someone to refine his ideas before they went to air with more of a focus on the wrestling industry rather than being as enterianment industry centric as Russo was, as stupid as it sounds someone like Cornette would have been ideal for this, after listening to his booking if the Invasion he's never seemed so similar to Russo to me, maybe just with his head 20 years in the past as opposed to stuck 20 years into a non-existant future. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Dec 23, 2010 |
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Dec 23, 2010 10:52
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Gavok posted:Now, the idea of a competently done feud between Goldberg and Warrior could be pretty good if done right. But a Goldberg vs. Warrior feud as written by Vince Russo? Holy poo poo. That would have been must-see TV right there. Somebody get me one of those Sliders alternate reality device thingies. I need to see a world where this happened.
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Mar 16, 2011 17:45
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Pneub posted:The latest HBK set was pretty good with him and others admitting how much of a dick he got to be before he cleaned up his act. If it's not I'd be interested in buying it because it's amazing how little I know about Michaels career and could use a recap documentary to familiarise myself.
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Mar 24, 2011 10:36
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Pneub posted:Crap, I didn't know they came out with another one. The 2008 one has a life story (up until WM23):
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Mar 24, 2011 13:01
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The WCW 2001 PPV's aren't as bad as you'd think considering the previous year and they're kind of interesting to see because they're heading in a different direction to WCW typically with an abundance of new stars out of the Power Plant who were employed for a couple of months before the buy out. Whenever I see a WCW 2001 PPV's there's faces I'd totally forgotten about that I wonder what's become of.Wojtek posted:Holy poo poo he looks awful. I had no idea he was that far gone. I guess that's chemo.
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Mar 26, 2011 20:42
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Can someone please tell me if he was at Wrestlemania 26? I don't have the DVD with me at the moment so I can't check for myself. He was backstage with Mean Gene and I believe they implied that they were swinging with Moolah and Mae Young. Or am I thinking of a different Wrestlemania or inserting him in place of someone else? Because he didn't look too bad at all from memory with all things considered, he'd definitely aged quite a bit and lost a lot of weight but he looked nowhere near as bad as in that picture. He truly is one of a kind, an amazing entertainer. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Mar 27, 2011 |
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Mar 27, 2011 12:53
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Dr. Video Games 0055 posted:Yeah, by that point WCW had completely rinsed their hands of Russo and were attempting to push some new stars (including a young AJ Styles) and focus on exciting in-ring matches again (at least, that's the impression I got). Perry Normal posted:It was XX when he and Gene were doing the poo poo with Moolah and Mae, cause Coach was the one who caught them and he was on orders from Eric Bischoff to try and find Undertaker, who was re-debuting that night. That's really odd because I have no recollection of watching XX. Thanks for the information though. It's a bit sad, I thought that the Heenan I saw there was him recovering from the therapy. Although he's starting to look better from a couple of more recent pictures I've seen of him, he seems to be growing some hair back and putting on a bit of weight.
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Mar 28, 2011 09:21
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Triple-Kan posted:Nope, that was "Above Average" Mike Sanders. I was watching an old WCW PPV a while ago though and couldn't remember his name and it was really bugging me, so thanks for that. I wonder what would have become of the Natural Born Thrillers of WCW was continued, WCW seemed to really want to push them. It's funny, on the PWR podcast they frequently have to remind people what WCW was, they even had a caller call in the show just to ask what WCW was.
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Mar 28, 2011 10:08
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Akileese posted:I think it's the best you can hope for. They can never glorify him for his accomplishments in pro wrestling which really is a shame, but it seems like they're less afraid to admit he existed now. Although in another way I do kind of feel the censorship is a bit irresponsible because he makes for a really important case study into the unseen damage that can be done to a performer. That stat about how the autopsy said his brain was consistent with an eighty year old alzheimer patients always sticks out in my mind because in a company full of people who spent a lot of time around him no one noticed this. It's a shocking statistic and shows how grave consequences can be if the proper precautions aren't taken. From a business perspective though I can totally understand why WWE doesn't want the association. Then there's the personal perspective for the people who worked with him, I can't imagine what being reminded even unintentionally that a guy you knew so well and even considered a friend for some did what he did.
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Mar 30, 2011 13:54
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Perry Normal posted:It's kind of ridiculous the way they do it too. Matches, interviews with just him are cut completely. But in the most recent one I watched, they were building up to Mongo/Benoit vs. The Faces of Fear, and Mongo/Benoit came to the ramp to watch the Faces beat up High Voltage. Rather than scrap the whole segment, or edit out the parts that showed Benoit watching, they just edited out any time the announcers mentioned him, so there were huge dead spots in the commentary. I don't understand why you just wouldn't take out the promos too if your going to take out the match. A shame too from my perspective, I really want to see that match again from memory it was fantastic. It was a two falls triple threat match with the first fall for the European title and the second for the Intercontinental title with Angle losing both belts he was holding them at the time without being pinned in either fall in a match he was booked in involuntarily without consent by his mentor Bob Backlund. Angle had such an amazing rookie year in 2000, it's amazing how well he adapted to the WWE.
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Mar 31, 2011 12:29
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You are fantastic.
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Mar 31, 2011 13:41
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Astro7x posted:I don't get why so many people complain that they gave away Hogan/Goldberg for free on NItro. Never in my life have I called a company stupid for giving me something for free... it could have been built better, yes, but I think that aspect of it was sort of cool in the sense that it made you want to tune in each week because anything could happen. This is probably a bad example because it had really detrimental effects for the company, but I never understand fans who look down on WWE when they give a great match away for free on TV every once in a while, it always makes me feel a little appreciated as a fan and makes me feel good about the company. A good example would be the Miz Vs Morrison falls count anywhere match on the first Raw this year, I do think Jo-Mo and Miz really could have used a main event Rumble spot for that match to strengthen their careers, but the chances of WWE being willing to take a chance on that match as the headlining PPV title match is slim. As a fan I really appreciated having a nice surprise of such a good match on Raw, especially sicne it happens so seldom these days and some fans should jut learn to appreciate these things rather than analysing them from a business perspective in a way that will never have any practical application. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 1, 2011 |
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Apr 1, 2011 18:16
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Some valid comments, but it's silly to play Sim Titan Towers all the time and worry about the business ramifications of these decisions, especially when it's relating to something that doesn't happen consistently. WWE gives away PPV standard world/WWE title matches on free tv very seldom and even less that are booked competitively. As fans we're only privy to very small fractions of information WWE or any organisation has to consider in making these decisions, consequently all we can do is speculate about what could/should be done ideally without having to worry about any factors that may hinder an ideal outcome. I'm getting wide of my point, what I was trying to say is that some fans should just take off their smarky fantasy booker/promoter/owner hat sometimes and just appreciate it when a company does something nice for their fans like a good title match on free television. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Apr 2, 2011 |
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Apr 2, 2011 18:39
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Rusty Shackelford posted:Even if, had they made people pay for the match, the company may have not gone out of business when it did?
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Apr 2, 2011 20:18
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jeffersonlives posted:Given their PPV numbers they really can't. jeffersonlives posted:To me it's more that they WWE has badly overexposed their guys... Once you've given fans the standard of star power (not match quality, mind) they've had on free television for the past twelve years or so it's going to be really hard to take this away from an audience that's accustomed to it without having them lose interest in the product and constantly compare it as a short coming to a time when all the big names were on television weekly as standard practice. I think it would have a very similar effect and reaction to the reform of hardcore wrestling elements in WWE we've seen from some fans, but on a much larger scale. Some fans just can't get past having an element of the product they enjoy phased out for whatever reasons and will constantly see the evolution of the product without it as flawed and lacking. Star-power is a much more universally appreciated and recognised factor of the product both in terms of how much of the audience and to what what degree it's an important element to. With the example of phasing out hardcore elements we can see how a change like this effects viewer perception on a smaller scale and have an educated guess as to the consequences of such a change on a larger scale. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Apr 3, 2011 |
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Apr 3, 2011 09:26
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Rarity posted:This is one thing that I disagree with. I really don't see what the big deal about showing Cena/Del Rio was. There's a big difference between a 5-minute free TV match with a cheap finish and 20+ minute main event on PPV, and I think any fan who orders PPVs understands that. If/when Cena and Del Rio have a headline feud, people aren't going to be looking back and going 'Oh, but they wrestled on RAW that one time', they'll be thinking 'this is a fresh PPV main event'. Niwrad posted:I still would love a WWE channel. Every other major sport has one and they could easily find enough programming from all their archives to keep it stock full of footage. Do a couple reality shows, some call-in shows, interview shows, maybe a Superstars type show, NXT, and second runs of Raw & Smackdown. Then play old shows and PPVs the rest of the time. You can't tell me that wouldn't be an interesting channel to have. Then again I'm sure Vince would be very happy to move in that direction and have the 'sports entertainment' they produce themselves to be merely a division of the entertainment producer/distributor they would become. I get the impression Vince wants the WWE to be changed into a very different corporate identity in line with production studios like Fox or Mirrormax and for shows like Raw to just be another entity produced under the WWE studios banner along with their films and new projects, the way the Simpson's and the films they produce are just another entity produced under the Fox banner. Even though I have no proof or really any reason to think this I get the feeling the whole re branding and preferred vocabulary thing is all about what kind of legacy Vince wants to leave behind, it seems to me that it's really important to him to expand the WWE banner outside of wrestling so that the McMahon empire is more like the Murdoch or Turner empire before he hands it off to Stephanie/Shane/Hunter. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Apr 3, 2011 |
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Apr 3, 2011 12:29
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Rarity posted:But free TV shouldn't just be 5-minute long matches with cheap finishes. We shouldn't be getting PPV main-event calibre matches every week on RAW but there's no reason we can't get a couple of matches that have a decent length of time. STAC Goat posted:Logically we should be getting some 8-12 minute matches, often using midcarders who won't get big showcases on PPV so can build themselves up on free TV, STAC Goat , I agree with everything you said, but there's another type of match I think they should add on. I'd like to see WWE make a habit of having a match with someone like Drew MacIntyre, John Morrison, Kofi, Ziggler or Swagger of quality and length somewhere in between a main event title match and a regular PPV match shown on Raw or Smackdown a handful of times a year. It would give people who have hit the glass in the mid card who they want to be main eventing in the future some experience in more demanding matches without having to worry about them effecting a buy rate or not performing quite at PPV standard for the top of the card. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 3, 2011 |
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Apr 3, 2011 14:16
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So I started watching Nitro's from 1999 chronologically and what happened during the first Nitro for the year? The finger-poke of doom. It's funny, this made me realise that I only started watching WCW as a kid the week after this happened so I only ever saw the decline of WCW. In saying that though, the finbger-poke of doom episode is actually quite a good show excluding this, Flair was really amazing as WCW commissioner. When did the show actually start declining drastically in quality? As I've always heard Nitro didn't actually start getting awful for a while after the finger-poke but it's where it can all be traced back to. Another thing in retrospect I've found really interesting is the distinct difference in approach you can see present in the WWF's and WCW's product at the time and the difference between the fan base.... WCW audiences were really gross. Did the Monday Night War's effect where the promotionss toured? Like did WWF stay out of the south for the most part or anything like that?
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Dec 11, 2011 15:48
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Super Ninja Fish posted:About the end of 1998. Everything in 1999 is pretty god awful. I'd even prefer to watch the Russo stuff late in the year over 1999 WCW before he arrived. The Russo era is so crazy, so stupid, and so hosed up that it's fascinating. The first of half of 99 WCW is just bad in the sense that it's boring. It's like WWE today. It's bad but it's not so bad that you can laugh at it. It's not watchable for any reason. I really enjoyed having three hours of wrestling while it was airing originally but looking back now I find it really hard to sit through three hours. Oddly enough, i think the Russo format probably would have been more suited for three hours purely because of how fast the shows moved and the way the format for each show seemed to change. savinhill posted:I think that has more to do with the difference of lighting and how the shows were shot than one promotion having a classier audience than the other. The crowds were more visible at WCW shows. Another thing I've noticed, Scott Hall's wrestling is fairly average although more interesting than a lot of WCW main eventers at the time but the way he commands the crowd is incredible. I'm guessing he was probably still having substance abuse issues at this time but he still seems miles ahead of the pack in a lot of ways, he really seems to absorb himself and inhabit his character with little things that really help to suspend your disbelief, this is especially demonstrated in the dynamic involved in how he interacts with other wrestlers. A good example is when Disco Inferno was trying to score brownie points with the NWO, when they walked to the ring together he'll kind of act like he's getting into Disco's disco schtick but when Disco isn't looking he'll start doing it in a patronising way to the camera, which is exactly how you'd expect the Scott Hall character to act around the Disco character. This made me really sad because it's the first time I really understood the potential Hall wasted, his acting and performing sensibilities are kind of (although not quite on par) with Flair in the sense that they vastly exceeded what most wrestlers were expected and capable of in this department and it really seemed to add another layer of depth. Something that watching these shows retrospectively has confirmed for me is that I was right in disagreeing with todays romanticised view of the first hour of Nitro. As I remembered and suspected the first hour a lot of the time was filled with long promos from Hogan or Nash that would fill up surprising amounts of time and there quite often would be terrible under card matches.
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Dec 12, 2011 13:05
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Sorry for the double post, but I feel this deserves it's own. Seeing the difference between Flair in 1999 and 2011 almost made me cry. It has nothing to do with the way he's aged as that isn't surprising given his age and lifestyle but just seeing him in a sold out Georgia Dome and seeing the pure admiration he unanimously received from fans because of the way (particularly at the time) in kayfabe and in reality he was seen as the embodiment and spirit of WCW was an amazing sight that I wish those who never saw him in WCW could see. The aura of respect he was treated with within WCW in and outside of kayfabe compared to how he's presented and received in TNA is really depressing. I know that his descent over the past decade has been his own doing in many ways but I can't help but respect someone so willing to sacrifice for what they love and so willing to continue to earn their keep. Knowing that he walked out on relatively easy plentiful money from WWE and continuing to do so presumedly so he could continue to do what he loves for much less money and much more demanding work speaks volumes about Flair's passion to me. I really hope everything works out in the end for Flair. (Although like a lot of people I feel like Hunter will probably take car of him.) Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 14:12 on Dec 12, 2011 |
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Dec 12, 2011 14:06
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MrBling posted:If you can, watch the Thunders from the same period. There is actually some fairly decent TV in there. Plus sometimes they get to go and play in their own continuity completely seperate from Nitro. I have heard though it was fairly on par with Nitro for a while though but eventually a lot of the main eventers decided they didn't want to do Thunder. Is it in the same kind of mould as Smackdown is to Raw these days? Less big matches, more solid matches with good workers? Can anyone tell me when the first Vince Russo era started in WCW? It was in 1999, right?
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Dec 12, 2011 15:06
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triplexpac posted:If you can forget what COULD have been, the Invasion was a pretty fun time. Lots of new stars, new matchups, it's certainly better than what we have now.
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Dec 15, 2011 16:52
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triplexpac posted:Again, if you completely forget about what a WCW invasion SHOULD look like, I think the Invasion storyline was fun. Lone Rogue posted:When you put that much talent in the ring you're eventually going to accidentally get something good. Watching Nitro back I can't believe how ever Bagwell was, wrestling aside his personality just makes him insufferable.
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Dec 16, 2011 11:52
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I remember hearing somewhere Tony Schivaonie legitimately disliked one of his co-hosts, but I can't remember which one. Any ideas? I seem to remember it was Tenay but I can't be sure. Watching 1999 Nitro's back I never realised what an rear end hole he was on-air before. He's always making GBS threads on the other commentators.
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Dec 23, 2011 14:50
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So the answer is everyone? He hated everyone.
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Dec 24, 2011 16:41
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I've hit April '99 while watching the years Nitro's, watching them reminded me of Flair saying (I can't even remember where) that he was embarrassed with a lot of the angles he was part of in WCW towards the end which I assume was at least partly in reference to the angle where he was briefly institutionalised in March/April '99 that does a really slapstick One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest kind of thing. I have to say Flair is a true professional, even while involved in such an absurd and demeaning story line he gives it 110%, despite all the recent events in his life seeing stuff like this reminds me why he's so respected and deservedly so. For those who haven't seen this angle, it's really bad. Flair gets sent to a institution populated with really offensive characterisations of the mentally ill where he has to act the part and fit in. The story is bad enough but it is genuinely executed without a hint of tact on top of this. As I said, this was in March/April 1999. Who was the dominant creative force in WCW at the time? At this point they're burning through angles really quickly and desperately trying to pop the ratings it seems. The episode previous to the one I'm watching had DDP drop the belt to Sting only to have Sting drop it back to DDP in a four way match with Nash and Goldburg in the same night. It seems that this is really the point where the beginning of the end starts. The contrasts in Nitro's tone from the start of the year and this point are quite striking, it's like watching two different promotions but the shows are only months apart or weeks more accurately since the changes started gaining momentum in February from memory.
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Jan 11, 2012 17:38
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1st AD posted:Backstage Assault is just WCW Mayhem with the rings stripped out of the game. I'm pretty sure all the engine and all the character models are the same, so the initial cost of development was already taken care of. I remember being jibbed at this when I was a kid. I remember trying to find the ring so I could do the turnbuckle moves.
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Jan 14, 2012 17:43
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I almost kind of wish Russo's 'no ring' idea went through just as the icing on the cake.
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Jan 14, 2012 18:07
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melon cat posted:I remember watching the WCW's decline back in the '90s. At some point they stopped being creative and seemed to just stop caring altogether (it was hilarious when passing shots of Monday Nitro had several empty seats). It even got so bad that every thing they did were just spin-offs from the WWF's ideas. Their lowest point, which where I stopped watching them altogether, was when they made fun of Jim Ross' facial paralysis caused by his stroke. gently caress those guys.
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Jan 16, 2012 03:29
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From the years I watched WCW Starrcade never really had much of a special aura about it.
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Jan 16, 2012 18:18
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Bocc Kob posted:The idea of Steve Austin listening to Rage Against the Machine is so Little Miss RKO posted:I dream of one day debuting as a crazy cat lady in the WWE. My name will be Kitty, and I'll carry a different cat with me every show. Complete with a different story of how I acquired said cat 10 minutes ago. You know it would happen! Edit: Watching the Nitro for this week, Bret Clark doesn't look quite right. This is post the Goldburg match with that fateful kick. What's the story behind Hart still being on television, when did they realise it was the end of his career? Also, speaking of rip off themes. I think the WCW horsemen theme reminds me of something but I can't put my finger on what, the first three of four bars specifically. It's a loving sweet guitar tone too. Sue Denim fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jan 17, 2012 |
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Jan 17, 2012 18:39
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Watching the last Nitro made me remember why I liked Double J so much as a kid, although I'm not quite sure what exactly it is that makes me enjoy him so much more than everyone else seems to or what I'm seeing that others don't. I hope we get to watch Souled out on PSP, this is from memory from over a decade ago at a much younger age but from what I remember it was actually a good PPV, it's another one of those WCW PPV's where 'card subject to change' applies heavily. Can someone tell me how and why it took so long for Hart to stop wrestling after the concussion? When/how did they realise it wasn't minor? It seems it took a long time for this conclusion to be reached.
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Jan 19, 2012 12:56
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Iskanderson posted:His brains were too scrambled for him to realize that he needed to see a doctor, and nobody in charge of anything at WCW could recognize his symptoms so he went on being involved in things and taking bumps which exacerbated his condition. He eventually did see a doctor, who told him that he was done wrestling. Strenuous Manflurry posted:Speaking of Souled Out, are we going to watch the Souled Out from 2000?
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Jan 20, 2012 10:54
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MassRayPer posted:You may be the only person with fond memories of that PPV. Super Ninja Fish posted:I know, normally you might think probably think WCW firing Russo would be a good thing for wrestling. It's kind of odd and ironic that WCW ended up losing the 4 best workers in the company over management balking at the idea to put the title on Tank Abbott.
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Jan 22, 2012 17:20
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I'm still going through the year of Nitro's that was during 1999. I'm watching one right now and I felt compelled to come in here and give some love for Lenny and Lodi, gently caress those guys played that gimmick well. I also appreciated how the gimmick wasn't just 'lol! Gays wrasslin' the comedic aspect was that they were two gay guys who thought they were living this double life because of their secret when they were so poor at hiding it the only secret was that they didn't know everyone else did. Maybe I'm just off because of how entertaining I find the characters but I always got the impression they were generally portrayed as loveable underdogs at least in the part where this aspect of the story was developing. What ever happened to those guys post WCW?
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Mar 20, 2012 16:12
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That's odd. I watched the entire ECW PPV back-catalogue in 2010 and thoroughly enjoyed it, maybe it's because I don't really keep in touch with the indies but the cards were a hell of a lot more entertaining/solid than WWE at the time. Edit: I'm Australian too, so I never had the chance to watch ECW television, so it was mostly without context.
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Mar 31, 2012 10:03
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Although I'm sure a lot of it had to do with seeing something that wasn't worked in the WWE style for the first time in years, it's amazing watching something like old ECW the moves and spots that I used to remember seeing on a weekly basis that WWE has removed/forbidden.
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Mar 31, 2012 10:58
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Lone Rogue posted:I would totally do that course if Russo paid off my student loan. If I could take a course on how to write wrestling from Vince Russo I'd jump at the loving opportunity. That class would be so much fun, it would like being back in high school except this time having an incompetent teacher is an enjoyable novelty.
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Apr 5, 2012 12:03
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SiKboy posted:Edit to add: Of course, Roddy Piper would be able to see the deely-bopper antenna, but only when wearing his sunglasses.
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Apr 6, 2012 01:30
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bobkatt013 posted:They mother fucken Live That's it! Thanks for that!
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Apr 6, 2012 14:47
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