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Who Killed WCW?
Eric Bischoff
Hulk Hogan
Vince Russo
Jerusalem
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FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Its funny to me because until Hogan coming in none of that stuff concerned me at all. Backstage stuff with Herd and Watts? Didn't care. Taping 8 million shows for Saturday night? That was my favorite show! Black Scorpion angle? It was dorky but no worse than what WWE as doing at the time.

I guess I was less informed back then but still.

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FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


MassRayPer posted:

Also, the tapings in Orlando weren't for Saturday Night. They were for WCW Worldwide. Worldwide was the syndicated show, Saturday Night was taped, but it was for TBS. Jim Mitchell has some hilarious stories about the quality of the rats from the Worldwide tapings, I guess it was a lot harder to find a quality rat at a taping in a studio than a typical show/taping.

Ohhhhh that makes sense, I never watched Worldwide.

Saturday Night was the bomb.

Jerusalem posted:

For some reason I always think of WCW starting in the mid-80s (like 85/86) and obviously I'm thinking of DCP or some previous incarnation of a NWA show. The level of money they were making in the late 90s was simply insane, but even at their "best" in the late 90s I always felt their presentation seemed shoddy and substandard in comparison to the well-oiled machine that was WWF.

They were the NWA before they became WCW but it was the same basic promotion.

And them being slightly lower rent than the WWF didn't bother me, it made it look more real!

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


rotinaj posted:

That was the logo that's been so much ballyhooed?

That logo was fine and this whole mystery has been over something super-stupid.

Its not the logo that matters its the quote.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Vertical Lime posted:

TNA is giving Hogan a parade in Orlando on Sunday. WCW did the same exact thing when Hogan arrived. There you go

Does Hogan just like loving love parades or something?

Man I want blah blah dollars up front creative control and a parade BROTHER

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Moose Bigelow posted:

Watch the scene where Ford slams the door shut to kiss Sean Young. Watch it with the sound off and say it's still romantic.

They are robots they don't know what romance is it melts their circuits.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Wrestling in general was almost all squashes and midcard matches until the 90s. I mean, Hogan showed up on WWF TV like 3 times a year tops.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Luger was big in WCW before he went to the WWF...

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


They were also capible of pissing away talent. I mean they had Hall Nash The Undertaker HHH etc... Before they were anything in the WWF

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Anyways, to get back to the central poll of the thread, Hulk Hogan killed WCW.

WCW died and had no chance of ever recovering at Starcade 1997. They lasted for quite awhile after that, but there wasn't any real hope of them having a resurgence after that night, it was the end of WCW, conceptually, and it ruined all of the subtext of the nWo angle, and resulted in a company whose fans had no reason to care any longer.

Since the start of Wrestlemania and Hulkamania WCW (I'm going to refer to it that way even though it was other companies before it started being WCW, its just easier) was the second wrestling company, the also ran, the other guys. They had less of a production budget, WWF had all the biggest stars, and the flashiest product, but WCW did what it could and continued to exist, never really being a huge threat to Vince's machine but always being there, as an alternative or a supplement to it depending on what you wanted out of it.

When Hall and Nash showed up on Nitro it was the start of an angle that had so much subtext it reached out and spoke to WCW fans in a way that no other angle could. Hall and Nash were WWF wrestlers, they represented the WWF as a whole, and although it was never stated outright, the implication of their representation of the WWF was strong enough that Vince sued them over it. When they started messing with WCW matches on Nitro it was as if the WWF was there, stomping on WCW in person, instead of just as they had been as a company since everything started. It was a direct extension of the realities of the two companies.

Then Hulk Hogan joined them. There is no person that would more represent WWF wrestling than Hulk Hogan, he defined it and they still use his formula to this day. It literally was the WWF vs WCW on TV, and much like in the real world, WWF was winning.

This is the most compelling angle you could come up with, it was 20 years of history in the form of a wrestling ring. WCW brought Hogan in to compete with WWF, it was a coup, but he never materialized the way they wanted him to as a face, because to the WCW fans he represented everything they didn't like about the WWF, now he was transformed into the villain they already considered him.

But it just got too big, they brought more people into it, and people that weren't formerly connected to the WWF, and it diluted the subtext, but it was still there enough for it to be relevant.

But the real representation of this WCW vs WWF subtext was in the Sting/Hogan storyline. Sting was WCWs babyface and the representation of the company, and Hogan represented the WWF, and they were going to eventually meet in a match and it would represent the entire concept of the two companies being in competition in the microcosm of the ring.

And they hosed it all up. Sting should have beaten Hogan, clean, in the middle of the ring, gently caress, Hogan should have submitted to the Scorpion Death Lock, that was what the fans wanted, it was the only way to end that angle, that feud, that would leave the fans happy it was the underdog, the home team, beating the Yankees in the world series. Instead the Yankees won and everyone went home sad.

Hogan hosed it all up by not jobbing clean to Sting like he should have. I know he wasn't the booker, but is there any doubt that the finish of that match wasn't dictated at least in part by Hogan? Yeah they wanted to bring in Bret and make a big deal out of him, that was a fine idea, he was all over the news at the time, but involving him in the match just ruined the finish. Hogan's ego crushed the dreams of seeing WCW finally come out on top of the WWF both figuratively and literally.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


yes yes, goonsay.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


MassRayPer posted:

To me, Starrcade 97 gave the WWF the opening to get back in the war.

Starrcade 98 and the Fingerpoke a week later stabbed the company in the gut and caused it to bleed out for 2 years.

Yeah it was the thing that killed them, it just took them awhile to bleed out from it, it ruined the energy, how can you recover from having the guy that is supposed to represent everything about the company being beaten by a guy that represents everything about the other guys?

They stuck around for awhile but it was over.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


MassRayPer posted:

If Goldberg hadn't emerged they probably would have been slowly killed by the slow fast count. But with Goldberg emerging they managed to create a star that kept them hot enough to stay competitive until early 99.

Yeah Goldberg helped them out he was 'the new hope!' essentially but they killed him with lovely finishes too.

I guess Goldberg could have beaten Hogan and ended the nWo later, that might have worked, but still Starcade 97 was the pits.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


On the best coast, erh, I mean west coast, Nitro was on at 5 and when it was over Raw started so I just watched both, BACK TO BACK TO BACK like a good little smark.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


That's weird I don't remember them stopping I guess I must have taped one and watched the other.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


LividLiquid posted:

Then why did the New Blood cheat to win in just about every match that night and do things like force the Millionaire's Club to come out without music or pyro, then make fun of them all night?

Because the old guys were holding down the young guys and not letting them get clean wins with their backstage clout....

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


quote:

Austin is technically and athletically very good but his weakness when it comes to charisma was apparent in such a long match.

Dave Meltzer everyone!

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Pneub posted:

Oh come on, you can't blame him. Austin was bland as gently caress back then.

don't be mean to poor Dave Meltzer!
It's a funny quote now with the the lense of history to look at it through...

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Pneub posted:

So you... thought Stunning Steve was charismatic?


don't be mean to poor Dave Meltzer!
It's a funny quote now with the the lense of history to look at it through...

If it was Scott Keith or something you wouldn't even take a second to bag on the quote, its a funny quote.

FishBulb fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 5, 2010

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Even though the whole concept of TV shows being in continuity with one another is retarded and I hate it, if you posted us accurate Raw is in continuity with the Wire...

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


And this is why its a stupid thing...

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


No gaddamit no everybody shut up about this!

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


He was on Sesame Street as an inspector and he pretty much acted exactly like he does on 30 Rock DOES THAT MEAN HE WAS FRANK?!?

Do 30 Rock and Sesame Street inhabit the same shared universe?!

WHO loving CARES NERDS

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Dylar Addict posted:

I would much rather see David Cronenberg directing a wrestling company actually.

Up next, the amorphous flesh beast made out of sexual organs versus the biomechanical acid-spitting psychic hooker.

I would buy every DVD that company put out.

I wish he went back to that instead of making really good crime films.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Dylar Addict posted:

I dunno, he made his masterpieces of the genre with Videodrome and The Fly. You cannot blame him for trying something new since he couldn't make a sci-fi movie better than those two.

Of course I can blame him, I am greedy and only care about my own entertainment.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


SiKboy posted:

And that he carried that boulder to the only ****+ classic of the night.

Nah you're doing Hogan wrong, Hogan doesn't care about stars.

He would say something about him and the boulder drawing 30 million fans to the Roman Catholic Church or something.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Pneub posted:

Damnit, you're right, I haven't watched it in a long time.

People talk about how Regal was 'stretching' him because he hadn't paid his dues or whatever, but Goldberg did pretty drat good in that match. Before the internet ruined wrestling, 95% of the fans probably just though it was a solid competitive match.

The internet was actively ruining wrestling at the time. It was just on Usenet and poo poo.

And it was pretty much the same way then as it is now, everybody hated Goldberg and loved what Regal did and played it up even though it wasn't nearly as big a deal as people made it out to be.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


It did make him look better, competitive matches make people look better.

I think everyone except bitter smarks probably just thought it was a competitive match.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Lamuella posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRW8isxXXig

190,000 people in attendance. The most watched wrestling card ever in terms of live attendance.

Whatever Hogan bodyslammed the 900 pound Giant in front of twice that many people.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Apparently I was at Bash at the Beach 98.

I don't even remember being there.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Chunky Delight posted:

I stopped watching WCW right before Hogan joined and didn't start watching again until the NWO began. The clips I've see of Hogan's face run seemed very cartoonish. How was the WCW midcard during that time?

I fully admit I really liked WCW a lot, I used to prefer it to what the WWF was producing when I was a kid/teen.

The Hogan face period is probably one of their worst periods until things got really terrible at the end. Its really bad. Theres a reason that guys like Austin and Foley left the company during that time.

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


El Gallinero Gros posted:

and the reason Alfonso did a humongous bladejob as well as the job for Beulah in a singles match was because Heyman demanded it in order to save his job after finding out.

So loving carnie

FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


It's pretty obviously Brock Landers you dummies.

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FishBulb
Mar 29, 2003

Marge, I'd like to be alone with the sandwich for a moment.

Are you going to eat it?

...yes...


Out of candy

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