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stevobob
Nov 16, 2008

Alchemy - the study of how to turn LS1's into a 20B.


I'm really enjoying all the social media posts of excitement and appreciation from people across the country seeing the snowbirds flying over where they live. Also more than a few posts from nurses/PSWs/other frontline workers who appreciate the gesture. @cfsnowbirds on instagram regularly reshares stories people post about the flyovers.

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Canuck-Errant
Oct 28, 2003

MOOD: BURNING - MUSIC: DISCO INFERNO BY THE TRAMMPS

Grimey Drawer

... Well gently caress, one of the Snowbirds crashed in Kamloops less than an hour ago

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



Hope the pilot got out. Heard at least one pilot ejected.

SuperSix
Aug 22, 2012


Jesus christ, video doesn't look good.

https://twitter.com/supermario_47/s...9966750720?s=21

I think we need to change the thread title back

stevobob
Nov 16, 2008

Alchemy - the study of how to turn LS1's into a 20B.


There is a video of the crash site, a house was hit but apparently the family was not home...they were out watching the flyovers. There may be one casualty out of the two people in the aircraft. What a horrible thing to happen...on a morale tour, too, and less than a year after another Snowbird crashed in Georgia, and in a residential area. Hope nobody on the ground was injured either.

Crash site video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF42N_SAmq8

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



drat. Compressor stall maybe? You see both the seats come out but that's a bad angle

Wonder if this will be it for snowbirds flying the Tutor.

Guest2553
Aug 3, 2012


stevobob posted:

I'm really enjoying all the social media posts of excitement and appreciation from people across the country seeing the snowbirds flying over where they live. Also more than a few posts from nurses/PSWs/other frontline workers who appreciate the gesture. @cfsnowbirds on instagram regularly reshares stories people post about the flyovers.

Paging Dr Foreshadowing, there is a phone call for Dr Foreshadowing

compressioncut
Sep 3, 2003

Eat knuckle, Fritz!

MA-Horus posted:

drat. Compressor stall maybe? You see both the seats come out but that's a bad angle

Wonder if this will be it for snowbirds flying the Tutor.

I think that's a straight up engine failure, judging by the pilot's immediate response and the fact the exhaust smoke just quits. No way those seats can safely handle a rate of descent like that, that close to the ground. If one of them lived it's as close to a miracle as you can expect to see.

I have a very similar thought with regard to them flying the Tutor, and frankly, flying at all. Remember, they had another crash 8 months ago (about which there has been zero information released as to cause). Jets are near 60 years old, and there just aren't many left to name one problem.

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

ya, gently caress u stevobob

Canuck-Errant
Oct 28, 2003

MOOD: BURNING - MUSIC: DISCO INFERNO BY THE TRAMMPS

Grimey Drawer

Confirmed one member deceased, one seriously injured. gently caress.

stevobob
Nov 16, 2008

Alchemy - the study of how to turn LS1's into a 20B.


Oh man

Hizawk
Jun 18, 2004

High on the Lions.


Guest2553 posted:

Paging Dr Foreshadowing, there is a phone call for Dr Foreshadowing

I wrote a reply saying I really hate airshows and all they stand for (and really any public military demostration) and I deleted the comment instead of posting it.

I still hate airshows. This just adds another reason.

mom and dad fight a lot
Sep 21, 2006

twenty-six characters long


The Snowbird member that was killed was from Nova Scotia.

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



Oh for fucks sake, give poor Nova Scotia a break.

mom and dad fight a lot
Sep 21, 2006

twenty-six characters long


I was about to say at least they're handling COVID-19 better than most of Canada, but even that's kinda lying depending on how you look at it.


Source: PHAC, StatsCan, and me using Google Sheets

mom and dad fight a lot fucked around with this message at 23:07 on May 18, 2020

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions.

What a loving shame. Hopefully PWGSC can rush procure some Hawks for the Snowbirds.

I have a poster my old man gave me when I was a little kid of Hawks in Snowbirds livery after the Red Arrows flew in Canada and the contractors came out to schmooze the military VIPs. The idea must have been kicking around for a while.

Or gently caress it, have the display team fly the same fighters as everyone else like the Americans do.

Frosted Flake fucked around with this message at 23:05 on May 18, 2020

mom and dad fight a lot
Sep 21, 2006

twenty-six characters long


Back when we had an air force, my father flew with Musketeers Gold, which was 4 CT-134's doing all sorts of poo poo that they probably shouldn't be.

Just lease 4 more Harvard II's and go hog wild!

compressioncut
Sep 3, 2003

Eat knuckle, Fritz!

Frosted Flake posted:

What a loving shame. Hopefully PWGSC can rush procure some Hawks for the Snowbirds.

I have a poster my old man gave me when I was a little kid of Hawks in Snowbirds livery after the Red Arrows flew in Canada and the contractors came out to schmooze the military VIPs. The idea must have been kicking around for a while.

Or gently caress it, have the display team fly the same fighters as everyone else like the Americans do.

So the problem with this is most of the team are not fighter pilots, and Hawks are fighters for all intents and purposes. Harvards replaced the Tutors, which is an easy to fly, docile airplane. The Hawk is not, in comparison. It's even more of a stretch to get real fighters. They can't man the jets they have at gun squadrons, let alone a 4-9 jet dog and/or pony show. I look at the team and I know a lot of them - pipe instructor, pipe instructor, pipe instructor, Hercs, Sea Kings, etc. I think there are two Hornet guys?

As well, there's no budget to operate a state of the art display team. The Snowbirds cost a piddly $4.3m a year I read? The airplanes were paid off 50+ years ago. Blue Angels are like a quarter of that per show. Apparently there are very very few Tutors left, too.

This article is sort of alarming if you read between the lines:

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/snowb...t-replacements/

The two mentioned in the article who quit the team early were DG (who had the crash last year) and his wife. I think you can understand why.

In my considered opinion, that's it for the team. Maybe a farewell tour next year.

Blade_of_tyshalle
Jul 12, 2009

If you think that, along the way, you're not going to fail... you're blind.

There's no one I've ever met, no matter how successful they are, who hasn't said they had their failures along the way.



Leonardo have been promoting their M345 trainer as the Tutor II, going so far as ads for it in Snowbirds livery. That's probably an easier transition than replacing the Tutors with fighter jets.

My Spirit Otter
Jun 15, 2006


CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

Frosted Flake posted:

What a loving shame. Hopefully PWGSC can rush procure some Hawks for the Snowbirds.

I have a poster my old man gave me when I was a little kid of Hawks in Snowbirds livery after the Red Arrows flew in Canada and the contractors came out to schmooze the military VIPs. The idea must have been kicking around for a while.

Or gently caress it, have the display team fly the same fighters as everyone else like the Americans do.


while, yes, this is tragic, there are other things we should be spending money on. id get it if they were a combat wing or something, but to have a ton of resources dedicated to a dedicated aerobatics teams is so wasteful.

we're such a small military that both the manpower and money is much better spent elsewhere and is significant enough that it would be noticed.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions.

My Spirit Otter posted:

we're such a small military that both the manpower and money is much better spent elsewhere and is significant enough that it would be noticed.

I get it, and I agree in principle. Itís just frustrating because thatís what I heard my whole career as we slowly lost capabilities and things got worse year by year. The Snowbirds are a dog and pony show, but it was a nice thing and the money we save by not having it probably wonít make the rest of the force better, theyíll get chipped away too in their turn.

Just in artillery world, M109 and ADATS was retired, LG1s broke and got a mixed reputation, mortars became an artillery weapon instead of the infantryís pocket artillery, airborne gunners were downgraded into para mortar platoons, we had to borrow American M777ís, Reserve artillery had to machine replacement parts for their Korean War vintage guns.

There was a time where, as far as I know, because ADATS and blowpipe/javelin were gone, and Eryx was pretty much gone and the LAV TOWs were being converted to Bisons or whatever, we had no AA/AT capability at the Bde level. Thatís hosed up, beyond just a budgetary thing.

I dunno, I know this isnít all PWGSCís fault, and there were some good things like the LAV upgrade and I dunno, new combat shirts, but stuff just went away and never came back.

It would be nice to have new or new-ish helicopters and fighters and destroyers and real mech bdes and not just make due, thatís all.

Generation Internet
Jan 18, 2009

Where angels and generals fear to tread.


compressioncut posted:

This article is sort of alarming if you read between the lines:

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/snowb...t-replacements/

The two mentioned in the article who quit the team early were DG (who had the crash last year) and his wife. I think you can understand why.

In my considered opinion, that's it for the team. Maybe a farewell tour next year.

quote:

He ejected successfully, sustaining minor injuries, but “reported anomalies with the ejection sequence,” according to an occurrence summary by investigators.

I'm trying not to read too far into this, but wow, yikes.

What a lovely thing this whole situation is.

Attire Irony
May 5, 2009


I have to hope that Ďanomaliesí means that the seats fired with a delay, otherwise the only Ďanomalyí would be operating the seat outside of safe parameters. removed due to poor reading comprehension on my end


I know some folks who flew the tutors back in the day and their sentiment for engine failure on takeoff was always Ďget alitutude and get the gently caress out immediatelyí- tutor E-seats are very unforgiving in a low-energy environment

If the (Kamloops) seats came out of the plane promptly when the eject was called, I definitely would not want to answer many of the questions that pilot is going to be asked.

Attire Irony fucked around with this message at 06:05 on May 21, 2020

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



Attire Irony posted:

tutor E-seats are very unforgiving in a low-energy environment

To be fair everything up to the zero-zero seat has been very unforgiving in a low-energy environment. Still better than the early F-104 seats and B-52 Nav/Bombardier seats that punch you out downwards.

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions.

Between the bribery, performance and alleged safety concerns, the F-35 might give the Starfighter a run for its money.

Someone in the TFR Cold War airpower said that the real reason the Luftwaffe and RCAF lost so many is that they were flying at treetop height over the hilly parts of Germany, but goddamn.

ďThere were 110 class A accidents in the 25 years that Canada operated the CF-104 resulting in 37 pilot fatalities. Most of these were in the early part of the program centering on teething problems. Of the 110 class A accidents, 21 were attributed to foreign object damage (14 of which were bird strikes), 14 were due to in-flight engine failures, 6 were as a result of faulty maintenance and 9 involved mid-air collisions. Thirty-two aircraft struck the ground flying at low level in poor weather conditions. Of the 37 fatalities, 4 were clearly attributable to systems failures; all of the others were attributable to some form of pilot inattentionĒ

MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



Well that was the mission that the RCAF and Luftwaffe put the F104. They took a plane designed for high level interception and used it for low level ground strike

This was a plane with leading edges so thin and sharp you could cut yourself on them.

Also the origin of that old cold war joke

Q: How do you get a Starfighter?
A: Buy a plot of land in west Germany and wait

Attire Irony
May 5, 2009


MA-Horus posted:

To be fair everything up to the zero-zero seat has been very unforgiving in a low-energy environment.

I wonder how, psychologically, it impacts the snowbird guys to go to a worse seat- since Many fly in 0/0 seats for a long part of their career up until they get the fancy jumpsuit.

As an armchair quarterback, I count an uncomfortable amount of steamboats from the point where I would expect the ejection until the seats come out. Iím super curious how this is all this is going to shake down.

Blade_of_tyshalle
Jul 12, 2009

If you think that, along the way, you're not going to fail... you're blind.

There's no one I've ever met, no matter how successful they are, who hasn't said they had their failures along the way.



I'm very interested in the eventual flight safety reports on both this and the Cyclone crash.

Like, I'm a jet guy so the Tutor thing is possibly more relevant at this point, but if the Cyclone incident can be useful towards whatever my airframe is replaced with in terms of new airframe shakedown practices, then all the better.

Just sucks that whatever lessons we learn from this year have been paid with in lives.

compressioncut
Sep 3, 2003

Eat knuckle, Fritz!

CBC has a video out where the Tutor pretty clearly takes a bird (or, unfounded internet speculation, a drone - that will be easy to prove or disprove when they look at the engine):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGS3dmuPlPo

That's just lovely luck. The turnback is going to need explaining, though I hesitate to get in his cockpit.

The seats are pretty terrible by modern standards but they are 0/60 and they were each very close to making it out successfully - the rate of descent is what ended their chances. Every seat has a rate of descent it won't overcome, and this was for sure way beyond. Having to pop the canopy first is also lovely, lots of modern systems shatter the canopy with det cord simultaneous with the seat firing (including Harvard and Hawk).

And the more I watch the video it seems she went out first (left seat) but it's very hard to tell for sure.

Preliminary report for the Cyclone is due 29 May.

(edited to make the seat spec make sense)

compressioncut fucked around with this message at 13:56 on May 22, 2020

Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

As a religion, bilingualism is the god that failed. It has led to no fairness, produced no unity, and cost Canadian taxpayers untold millions.

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

Just sucks that whatever lessons we learn from this year have been paid with in lives.

cf.txt

Itís not just state of the art, thatís how we replaced the Iltis too.

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MA-Horus
Dec 3, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.



Frosted Flake posted:

cf.txt

Itís not just state of the art, thatís how we replaced the Iltis too.

and the MLVW for gun tractors.

Remember that roll-over in Pet a few years back, where that kid got his brains bashed in by the gun box?

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