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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Stare-Out posted:

Blackfish is also on Netflix right now, go watch it. It's remarkable.

Forget about Sea World and their ridiculous antics, this documentary will change the way you see humanity's place on Earth and our relationship with the other animals we share it with. I knew orcas were relatively smart, but what I saw in this film blew my mind and may(its still percolating, I only saw it a day or so ago) permanently change the way I think about nature and wildlife. It freaks me out to think that if I was this ignorant about orcas until now, there may be others. I'm seriously thinking about vegetarianism after watching it, and I'm not at all kidding.

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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Daveski posted:

100% agreed, the Sea World stuff made for an interesting story, but the part that has really stuck with me was the old sailor breaking down when talking about capturing the whales. That story (and what it implies about the intelligence of these animals) is seriously one of the most horrifying and disturbing things I've ever seen in a film.

There is also a part later on where they describe what happens when a baby orca is shipped off to some other park and separated from its mother. Its seriously as heart-wrenching to watch as a human mother talking about a missing child.

There was also a fact they threw out there early on that completely knocked me back in my seat. Apparently orca pods all have unique vocalizations, and there is NO overlap. So they basically have language and each family has its own unique habits and behaviors(techniques used for hunting, relationship hierarchies, etc.)

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Dec 20, 2013

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HipGnosis posted:

I actually try not to think of Tillikum alone, in his own tank, in living hell, for the rest of his life...uh, I'm tearing up right now.

The worst thing they show being done to the whales is that first park Tillikum goes to where they would shut him and the other two whales up together in a tiny enclosure for the whole night, every goddamn night. And the normal pool they swam in during the day would be considered "tiny" by any standard, this night enclosure was like another additional level of hell.

I don't think any other film has ever affected me this much, I'm still pretty mad and upset about it and its been like 48 hours since I watched it.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Baron Bifford posted:

When I considered Tilikum's acts, I wondered If we are to consider orcas to be like humans, should we not hold Tilikum accountable for his crimes? Should he be tried and punished according to his crimes but with consideration for his psychological suffering?

Oh, and you don't have to spoiler tag something that appears in a documentary.

I look at Tillikum as a POW who was tortured for years upon years and then eventually lashed out violently at his captors. So if something similar happened to a human soldier no, I wouldn't hold them responsible or want them punished for their actions.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I blame the frame and not the picture. Incidentally, that is why a lot of people just offhandedly dismiss the issues presented in the film, because they find the anthropomorphism absurd at face. I don't agree but I think that's valid for a number of reasons.

I really don't get that because theres some pretty convincing evidence in the film that these creatures really are intelligent and should be treated as such. There's actual footage of mothers grieving for their lost children, and while any footage can be misinterpreted in the wrong context, I really really don't think that's the case here. I defy anyone to watch that poo poo and tell me its not what it appears to be.

I don't think the film is trying to argue that orcas are literally as intelligent as humans and should be treated exactly like humans, but we have to be able to do a lot better than kidnapping their young and systematically torturing them for out entertainment.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I agree. But then, that raises other interesting questions people would rather not talk or think about.

Absolutely, and that's exactly what happened to me when I watched it. It raised some uncomfortable questions in my mind that I'm still struggling with days later. If all this information about orcas was out there since the mid-80s and I never knew about it, what else don't I know about? I want to research dolphins because I've always kind of hand-waved the whole dolphin safe tuna thing but now I think I was just being selfish and didn't want to have to stop eating tuna(I know nowadays its no big deal to buy dolphin safe tuna). It just made me realize that I really don't know poo poo about wildlife or the natural world, and maybe I should try to learn.

For a lot of people though I think you're probably talking about intelligence and humanity's perceived monopoly in it. If religious people had to come to terms with the fact that there are other species that compete with us in intelligence they may have a lot of their core beliefs shaken.

Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Dec 20, 2013

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

HipGnosis posted:

Yeah same. If a child was kidnapped and tortured everyday and then later came to a justice system like our own and killed several people, his lifetime of abuse would likely mitigate his sentence. Happens all the time in criminal law.

And more specifically if someone who is tortured for an extended period of time murdered the actual person responsible for the torture, they would probably see no jail time whatsoever.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

NeilPerry posted:

Tell me, how does that work? What is the alternative?

The best way to inspire people is to lead by example, not by constantly pointing out their shortcomings. When people get down on themselves they tend to withdraw, so when you hear somebody say they were inspired by watching a documentary, maybe bring up some things that you are involved with that they could join. Or jump in and talk about all the stuff you've learned since you got into the subject, since presumably you know a lot more about it than someone who's interest was just peaked by watching a documentary. Instead the first move is to bemoan all those lazy assholes who say they care but never do anything about it. Its like, yea those people are very prevalent, but is that really the time to complain about it? Wouldn't a more positive attitude get things moving a lot more effectively?

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

marktheando posted:

I don't see what's wrong with this post, and I'm a meat eater who uses apple products. If someone simply says boycotting things and going vegan are good things to do that isn't an attack on people who don't do those things.

Speaking for myself, it was really this post that I was reacting too:

NeilPerry posted:

I can only imagine you're talking about veganism and I'd have to say you're exactly the reason why people who watch Earthlings, etc and feel deeply that they don't want to contribute to the industry anymore end up doing it again because it's somehow less socially acceptable to stand up for what you believe than it is to not care about suffering. And again, it's not a zero sum game. Caring about animal rights does not mean you don't care about human rights, and essentially animal rights ARE human rights(for the industry's contribution to global warming, its overuse of antibiotics, etc).

And either way, I was simply talking about any particular thing a person might be tempted to do after watching a documentary and not necessarily saying everyone should become anti-capitalist veganists(though I do think the world would be better if they did).

Its us! WE ARE THE PROBLEM.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

NeilPerry posted:

In that case I think my post was just taken out of context. I was replying to a guy who claimed that outside of activism there isn't much one can do, but I replied saying you can do quite a lot with just simple choices as a consumer.


We aren't? I mean it, how are we not the problem? We give money to the people who slaughter the animals you don't want to see slaughtered or make the products in environments you swore to yourself you'd never support. I'm not talking about laziness, I'm talking about cognitive dissonance, which, as far as I'm concerned, you're doing right now.

You're absolutely right but its an extremely obvious point that I don't really need made for me by every random dude on the internet who sees someone mention that they saw Blackfish. No poo poo, a lot of people struggle with this issue and the cognitive dissonance that often comes along with it, and right now I'm one of them. I don't need you to tell me all about the stuff I'm not doing.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

It really is amazing how many people I've talked to that actually sat down and watched Blackfish, and still they say stuff like "I'm sure it was exaggerated" and "it just seemed really biased against SeaWorld". I dunno, I guess a lot of people have fond memories of going to SeaWorld as a kid and don't want to think that they may have contributed to the torture and imprisonment of an intelligent creature.

Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

cloudchamber posted:

I don't think it's wrong to expect that kind of journalism to be honest. As Mill pointed out you can't fully understand an argument until you've heard both sides point of view.

As for Blackfish, some of the claims in the doc did seem slightly, you know, fishy. There's that one bit where they claim that aggressive behaviour is passed on through genes (or something basically to that effect.) Is that really how these things work? Don't genetics only carry information related to physical characteristics, not ones related to attitudes?

Can you elaborate on that? I don't remember when DNA and aggression were discussed and in what context. I thought they were arguing the opposite, that Tilikum's traumatic experiences made him aggressive and dangerous.

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Basebf555
Feb 29, 2008

The greatest sensual pleasure there is is to know the desires of another!



Fun Shoe

Dr.Caligari posted:

^Just finished this, not too bad. Kept me guessing as to what would happen next.But I wonder if, Crowhurst didn't fabricate mental illness. It's not like he didn't fake anything else, and his timing is kind of strange. You would think those kind of mental health problems would have already peaked in the first few months of isolation. It's quite possible he would think that his going crazy would be more honorable than just killing him self because of the situation.

Impossible to know for sure but I felt like Crowhurst was a guy living on the edge of sanity as it was. He put together this plan to enter the race basically as a mid-life crisis, and he had all kinds of weird ideas about how to make his boat the fastest. So I got the feeling that even before the race he wasn't 100% in touch with reality. I think living for months with nothing to focus on but those navigational calculations was just the last straw that broke him.

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