Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


The Staircase is really good, as is its sequel.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Dr.Caligari posted:

Isn't that the one that leaves out a lot of important, damning evidence?
I honestly can't remember, it's been a long while since I watched it. But even so the actual crime fades into the background as it goes on and the doc starts focusing more on the family itself dealing with the situation which is pretty interesting and compelling to watch.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I'm still looking for any decent documentary having to do with post-classic Mayan civilization and the Spanish conquest of the Americas in the 16th century, any help would be appreciated! No ancient aliens stuff though, thanks.

I also just watched the Storyville/Frontline documentary "My Brother's Bomber", where a journalist goes to find the people responsible for the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988, also known as the Lockerbie bombing. The guy's brother was on the flight, so it had a slight feel of personal bias, understandably, but overall it was a really good watch. The guy ends up finding out all kinds of new information about it just by going around talking to people.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Lurdiak posted:

Call Me Lucky is powerful, emotional, captivating, devastating, heartbreaking, and so honest and personal that it feels like you're at some kind of family gathering the whole time. It's a really good documentary.

Yeah, for everything Bobcat Goldwaith has done since World's Greatest Dad, Call Me Lucky is definitely worth a look. It sucks you in and then punches you hard in the gut out of nowhere.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Saw Weiner, not sure how much, if any, bias there was but most of what I got out of it was bafflement over how much people focus on a political candidate's personal life over their political position. It's pretty interesting to see how judgmental people get while brushing aside the fact that everyone is practically a huge hypocrite chastising a political candidate for personal mistakes that have nothing to do with the political side of things, and peoples' willingness to sacrifice having their voice heard for some notion of unachievable perfection in a chosen representative.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Is that weird tickling doc gonna be available anywhere anytime soon? Seems interesting enough and there's a lot of buzz around it but it's not in theaters or on demand anywhere.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Taking its time eh. Well, gonna wait for it, excited though!

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I can't find anything about it on TVIV so may as well mention it here, but Planet Earth II is currently on and it's loving amazing. It's only three episodes in but manages to be even more impressive than the first one and that's saying something, obviously. There's just nothing like watching incredible high-definition nature eye-candy with Attenborough being your granddad talking about it.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


mod sassinator posted:

If you never saw it the film from the two French guys that were profiling a fire department as it happened is _amazing_. It's called 9/11 and is well worth a watch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_(film) It's more of a first person as it happens account and less of a comprehensive Ken Burns style doc.

Yeah it's really good and harrowing and a surprisingly coherent account of how things were on the ground that day. I've seen two versions of it though, one that was just flat-out the footage with interviews with the main people involved and another where some actor (can't remember who) kept appearing to state the obvious (in between commercials probably). I much preferred the first version.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Make sure to watch the sequel too. I think there's a third one on its way but I haven't heard anything about it in a few years now.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


It picks up a few years after the first one and is basically a really gripping courtroom drama with a lot of twists and turns. It's called Last Chance I think.

E: Yeah. Staircase 2: Last Chance.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Icarus was bananas, yeah. I hope it works out well in the end for Grigori.

It's kind of remarkable how Russia can do all sorts of crazy and awful poo poo and when they're called out on it they just go "Nope." and nothing comes of it. They don't care about their image as utterly corrupt and shady and have the wealth and power to make things happen how they want them to happen. The whole thing with the Olympics could be applied to just about every facet of how Putin's Russia runs things.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I've asked this a few times in this thread and been completely ignored so what the hell, gonna try it again; any good documentaries about the post-classic era Mayans? Meaning their culture and stuff around the time of the Spanish conquest and the conquest itself in the late 15th and early 16th century? Most of the ones I find are about ancient aliens poo poo or otherwise really superficial and go on to be more about the Aztecs. There has to be some good ones out there.

Duzzy Funlop posted:

Anyone have a recommendation for what to do for a regular fix of space / universe documentaries?

I dig ones along the lines of Discovery Channel's "How the Universe works", or the really similar "The Universe", but also sifted through the remake of Cosmos with deGrasse Tyson.

poo poo like black holes, galaxies, and how the universe finds ways to make gravity either look awesome or break things really beautifully is kinda my poo poo. I need something a little more digestable and less emotional than the Vietnam documentary, but that still has potential to blow my mind.

A lot Brian Cox's (not the actor) documentaries are really good. The more recent ones are more about life on earth which is cool in its own right but being a physicist he's made some really interesting docs about space stuff too. I highly recommend them.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Just watched the Netflix version of The Staircase and man, what a ride. I watched the first Staircase when it came out and got completely hooked on it, then the second and finally now the third. It's so good.

The one thing I noticed the Netflix version completely cut out was the whole Owl theory thing, I think it was fairly prominent in The Last Chance/Staircase 2 but the only reference to it is in passing by David Rudolf in the second to last episode. I liked having it as a part of the doc originally because it was such an out-there theory but I remember it being somewhat well justified.

Still, check it out if you haven't already. It's up there with the best true crime, fly-on-the-wall, non-sensationalized courtroom documentaries.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

Wait, is it a new documentary based on the same case? Or did they just upload that old documentary?

It's the old documentary plus three new episodes' worth of more recent material edited into roughly hour-long episodes. The first Staircase covered the whole thing from Kathleen's death to Peterson's conviction, Staircase 2: Last Chance covered the appeal process and Peterson being granted a retrial and the third covers everything from there up until mid-to-late 2017 so it's very recent.

But like I said, the old stuff has been slightly edited, for instance cutting out everything about the owl theory. It's still solid as hell and it was cool to see new stuff after such a long wait.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Alhazred posted:

Henry Lee is the highlight of that show. He politely and charmingly destroys the DA's evidence but still gets ignored because he's too "foreign".

His joke about signing Rudolf's book killed too. As did Brad's "and one judge" line. So weird to see everyone laugh under those circumstances.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


magnificent7 posted:

Someone in this thread said that The Staircase was rather one-sided though, omitting a lot of details? I've tried googling, reading wikis, and I can't find any mention of said omissions. Does anybody know more about that part of the story?

Well, it's one-sided in the sense that it predominantly focuses on Peterson and his family, the opposing side (DA/Kathleen's family) aren't given all that much screen time, especially as the story progresses. I haven't heard anything about any significant omissions, but the doc didn't sway me in either direction. Even after going through it twice now, I can't say whether Peterson is guilty or not.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


If he did murder her, or if she was murdered, there's no way it happened in the way the prosecution claims in the first trial. That whole blowpoke thing was a load of horseshit from the beginning.

Owl theory all the way.

Mahoning posted:

I think the only thing Iím convinced of is that she was murdered by someone. I was just never convinced that an accident causes those kind of injuries.

That's the thought I had when I first watched the documentary but if she hit her head hard enough on the door frame, and then slipped, it's possible. But then again we have no real idea of how things went down, the way she fell could've been a whole lot different than was presented during the trial by the biomechanics guy for instance. A hard enough of a fall would've caused a hell of a laceration and even without skull fractures the head bleeds a lot. I've gotten cuts to my head a few times and each time it was pretty alarming to see the amount of blood coming from a pretty tiny cut. I mean, face covered in blood-amount from a cut less than an inch wide.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I'm amazed the jury managed to (presumably) stay unbiased when faced with a ghoulish crone like Freda Black.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


KoRMaK posted:

Omg lol why did they take that out of the Netflix upload? Did it ever run at trial?


They strike me as the kind of people that would leave their back door open, for the dogs mostly and because who cares no one is going to walk in through the backyard.


Makes me think about why it's important to keep your screen door closed and probably not even have a doggie door in places like Florida

Presumably it was axed because it was a loose theory that, to be fair, felt a bit left field in the original doc as well. It never came up at trial if I recall because it first came up during the appeal process and I don't think there was enough solid evidence to put it forth as a credible alternate theory for what happened. The state would've blown it out of the water pretty easily.

I personally think that while it's extremely unlikely, it's not impossible. There are ways it could've happened, all it takes is one swoop from an adult bard owl to do pretty severe damage, and they demonstrated in the documentary that if you were at the pool, you wouldn't hear a thing that was happening in the house.

I'm still leaning towards it being an accident. She fell.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


precision posted:

I didn't get "OJ vibes" from him at all. Guy mostly just seemed insanely bewildered at how hosed up his situation was.

That's how I saw it too, it's hardly unusual for someone in his position to try and use morbid humor when his life is basically on the line and the odds are increasingly against him. It's not like the second his wife's body was taken away he was off cracking jokes about being a murderer. Plus he had a consistent habit of trying to convince everyone around him, his kids most notably, that he was doing okay so what better way to do that than to joke around.

E: I also have to mention Kathleen's sisters. I mean there's trying to make sense of an insanely tragic and difficult situation by blaming anyone and everyone but they (Candace in particular) really went off the deep end. I actually felt pretty sorry for her at the end, despite how she came across.

Stare-Out fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Jun 18, 2018

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


No she didn't. His previous wife stood by him in court last year. His friend and biological mother of his adopted daughers died after possibly suffering a stroke and then falling down the stairs. Easy to see as suspicious, no doubt. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'm leaning towards a coincidence. Again, no motive, and pushing someone down the stairs isn't necessarily a surefire way of killing a person, especially when there's no clear evidence of any subsequent beating. If so, Peterson is a very lucky (in terms of success rate) and an oddly specific and sporadic murderer.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


"The Staircase" prosecutor Freda Black found dead at 57.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


No, she got hit by an owl.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Yes. Itís up there with the best true crime/courtroom documentaries in my book. Itís a hell of a ride.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Am I remembering wrong but wasn't Derren Brown one of the guys who fully acknowledged that it's all misdirection and bullshit what he does?

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


BonoMan posted:

As opposed to ... what? Being actually magical?

No, as opposed to even pretending that it's something other than blatant suggestion and misdirection. It comes across to me that even if he says that no trickery was used in something he does, he still does cheat and use camera tricks and that's kind of the point. I'm not terribly familiar with the things he's done but he's always struck me as more of a debunker than anything else from what I've heard.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


It was almost equally as compelling as the first season, I thought. But overall it felt pretty meandering and stretched out (granted, that tends to happen what with the wheels of justice being slow with appeals and what have you) and had a weird habit of introducing new theories and information and then jumping back to "Hey, let's see how one of the guys is doing in prison instead of following up on that."

I wanted to know more about the ex-boyfriend and the roommate because ever since the first season I've wondered about them. The fame whory blonde who nearly married Avery was pretty messed up, too.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I think she even said she'd be on the third season, which was the point I knew we wouldn't be hearing much about her afterwards.

The new lawyer is competent for sure but the state's case was so incredibly shaky to begin with that they could've tugged on any thread and the whole thing would collapse. I'm pretty curious about who the real killer or killers are. There seems to be quite a bit of circumstantial evidence pointing to a bunch of people but no real motive for any of them from what I can remember. I'm not a 100% convinced about Avery's innocence either though. The $36M lawsuit against the state goes quite far to explain a cover-up, regardless of the degree the police were involved in muddying the waters.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I do tend to watch these kinds of things with a very Devil's Advocate kind of way though, and while Avery isn't exactly the most likely suspect here, I'm reluctant to give into the narrative the documentary is pushing since I don't know any other details about the case or the people involved. Much like a lot of those people, I'm sure, who were holding signs and protesting to free Avery and Dassey because they "watched Making a Murderer" and that's all they needed. It's a bit weird. A doc is a nice jumping on point but maybe examine and read up on more things than just that before you go standing outside a courthouse yelling your head off.

It's funny because like you pointed out, the initial lawyers, the "Dream Team" felt pretty drat competent and on point in the first season of the show, yet now we know the mistakes they made because we learned about all the evidence presented at the trial (or not presented) that they completely failed to address. The doc even points out how they were essentially superstars after season 1 had come out, maybe not so much anymore.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


That's a fair point, and to be honest, I'm not convinced about Avery being the killer, I'm just unwilling to rule his involvement out until something concrete emerges about his innocence and I'm trying to consider all possibilities. I'm far less convinced that Dassey had anything to do with it though. That interrogation, or what we saw of it, definitely came across as leading if not completely coerced. The detectives being reluctant to participate in the documentary raises some flags too. You'd think they'd be eager to address it if only to attempt to protect their reputations.

As for the blood spatter analysis stuff; isn't it kind of a dubious science, to a point? I'm not saying the blood in the RAV4 isn't suspiciously convenient and while they seem to support the (current) defense's theories, I found myself Occam's Razoring quite a few of their opinions on how the stains could end up in the car, mostly with the ignition. Sure, when they tested it and the guy had blood on his fingers and turned the key, no blood ended up next to the ignition but you could also say that hey, it was dark, the killer/Avery wasn't familiar with the car and fumbled around trying to get the key in the ignition, and presto, blood stains.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but to so quickly discard that possibility and basically leaving it to the state to refute their claim with it seemed a bit sloppy to me.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Yeah, all of that was pretty nuts. If I had to guess, I'd think it could be possible someone went in with the intent of searching for something to incriminate Avery with, potentially something to get DNA from (but they'd already drawn his blood years ago and had possibly even accessed it? As seen in S1 with the blood sample vial) so which blood could've been used is anyone's guess. The fact that the blood in his trailer was cleaned up, as Avery claimed, is pretty strange too. Why clean it up? Take what you need and leave it there, try to preserve the place as much as possible, surely some blood left would be less suspicious to Avery than wiping all of it up.

I agree that the blood in the car is super suspicious and definitely seems like it could've been planted, I just meant that it bugs me that the defense is seemingly so eager to throw away any other possible theories as to why a blood stain might be where it is than the one that fits their argument: Staged vs. fumbling with the keys in the dark with a cut finger or whatever.

Thoughts on the hosed up stuff they found on Bobby Dassey's computer? I don't think it was ever proven that he was the only person who used it; they'd just "heard" that Brendan never used it, but either way -- just a morbidly curious, hosed up guy getting his kicks online or actual killer who matured through messed up porn into an actual killer?

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Alan_Shore posted:

The computer evidence was crazy. Yeah, technically anyone in the house could have used his computer to look up that stuff, but the fact that the cops take it, then have a little chat with Bobby, who then changes his story, is beyond suspicious. Helping put his brother and uncle in prison. This loving case!

I read on Reddit that Ma Avery has never visited Brendan in prison. Sad. I guess she sort of blames him for her son going to jail. This crime tearing all these families apart and ruining their business, really sad side effects

That's the thing about cases like these where the accused party or parties are possibly innocent; not only does it destroy the families of the accused and tarnish their names in the community and beyond, it also allows for the possible real perpetrator or perpetrators to remain free to enjoy their lives, or more horribly, continue committing murders. It's so bizarre that the notion of innocent until proven guilty is even remotely entertained anymore, officially, when otherwise (certainly in the court of public opinion) it completely isn't and anyone the authorities point their finger at become the targets of some gruesome and blood-frenzied mob who will never let it go even after the accused are exonerated because they've pretty much decided who was guilty from the get-go and stick to their guns no matter what happens.

I really do feel for the elder Averys, as I doubt that when or if Steven Avery gets out, either of them will be alive. No matter what happens, I'm fairly certain both of them will die while he's still inside and to some degree I think both of them know that. Potential miscarriages of justice and the horrific murder itself aside, that aspect of it is the one that troubles me the most. If Steven is innocent, he will never have the chance to be there to see his parents off. And even if he gets to successfully argue his case once again through Kathleen Zellner's work, there's no doubt the state will work its hardest to postpone Steven being released on bond or otherwise, even if one or both of his parents are on their death beds at that point. It's super hosed up.

EL BROMANCE posted:

I've only watched the first two episodes, but I like that the new lawyer has done more to sell me on his innocence than the whole of the first season did.

That was one of my favorite parts of this season, despite some slightly questionable accusations and arguments they threw around. Watching her doing what the original defense team, let alone the police, should've done with such determination and relative ease, is pretty drat fascinating. A lot of the time she did things I'd never even considered or if I had, she covered those as well. Say what you will, but she's a hell of a drat lawyer.

Stare-Out fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Oct 22, 2018

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Yeah, forcing them to be some kind of a framing device for the overall story didn't work for me and by the end I found them to be slightly annoying. Focusing on some lazy Facebook sleuths was a good way to start things off before the insanity but from there just focus on the more relevant stuff.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


The Galaxy Quest documentary "Never Surrender" is pretty great, I'd recommend it to a non-fan even. The sound mix is a bit off though, the music often drowns out peoples' voices to the point where I needed subtitles to watch it but even so, it's a fun watch, especially if you're a fan of the movie (and why wouldn't you be?)

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


I watched the four episodes of the new Zodiac FX documentary and it was better than I expected, mostly because I was expecting something ludicrous and sensational only being vaguely familiar with the recent book it follows about this guy saying his dad was the Zodiac killer. I wouldn't take the doc as some kind of a comprehensive guide to the Zodiac (since it leaves out some big details) but instead more of a look into the guy himself. Just go in holding big brick of salt, which I did and found it fairly interesting and enjoyable.

E: Forgot to name the doc, it's The Most Dangerous Animal of All.

Stare-Out fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Mar 8, 2020

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Anyone catch "The Mole: Infiltrating North Korea" on BBC? I thought it was excellent and tense as hell. If you get a chance to see it, go in knowing as little about it as possible.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


battlepigeon posted:

Seconding this! I didn't even know that there were so many North Korea fan-clubs around.

Yeah, I've been trying to catch as many good NK docs as possible lately and this has been the highlight so far. If it was a movie I wouldn't believe half the stuff that happens in it. Kinda crazy how much access they got, it's like a legit spy thriller. I really, really hope people don't sleep on this one.

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Alhazred posted:

It's mind boggling how a couple of amateurs can infiltrate an authoritarian police state so easily. "James" is just pulling lies out of his rear end (he doesn't even know what to call his fake company before he's in North Korea) and everybody completely buys it. They just let them take videos and pictures in their super secret villain lair.

One of my favorite moment is how everybody stress that you have to be able to keep up with the drinking in North Korea and then the two danes completely drink them under the table.

Yeah, I was blown away how much they were able to film with actual cameras, I was expecting way more of it to be hidden camera stuff, which were the most tense scenes in the whole thing. It's amazing two people who were essentially amateurs were able to keep their cool and just lie on the fly so convincingly.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Stare-Out
Mar 11, 2010

not all who wander are lost


Welcome to Chechnya was recommended to me with the warning that it's a hard watch, and they weren't kidding. I was aware of how LGBTQ people are persecuted in Russia and particularly in Chechnya but even still I had to take a few breaks while going through it. It's not all doom and gloom but it's clear that none of the horror stories are exaggerated. I'd recommend it but there are some violent scenes in it.

On another note, I found it interesting that instead of blurring peoples' faces or filming them in shadow, they basically deepfaked the subjects to protect their identities. It's a bit weird and offputting at first but I think it's preferable to see emotions on their faces even if it's not on their actual faces, to blurring them because that would dehumanize them to a degree, and this doc was very much about connecting with these people.

TL,DR: It's a tough watch, but an important one.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply