Mikan posted:

When did Paizo ever attempt to make the 3.5 system easier

Mikan posted:

That said, Pathfinder isn't marketed for new gamers anyway. It's a reprint of an older D&D system with some houserules specifically marketed and created for people who don't want to switch to the newest version for whatever reason. If new people are getting into this hobby, they're going to go with 4e (and eventually 5e or 6e).
Well, or World of Darkness.

quote:

Are you really going to pick at semantics and rhetoric here? They're all but admitting that their game doesn't run well unless you have a smartphone to do the piles of math and are releasing a crutch to mitigate that.

Gerund posted:

^^^ Are you really going to pick at semantics and rhetoric here? They're all but admitting that their game doesn't run well unless you have a smartphone to do the piles of math and are releasing a crutch to mitigate that.

Gerund posted:

Selfishly, I'd rather they work on a start-up game that is as easy to understand and play as one of those basic boxes back in the 70s. Okay, that's a lie, I'd rather they spend the time making a system that worked, but c'est la vie.

Gerund posted:

So then I'm angry that grognards exist and have a company pandering to them, and that they (the Grognard demographic) will never, ever try to grow the hobby by making a good game like Green Ronin or Crafty Games.

My God. It is me. I am the Grognard.

I'll go post myself in .txt right now.

Oh wait.

I already did.

Mikan posted:

The only thing I see weird about this is that iPod apps are actually more of a tool to market the system to new gamers, they're the ones most interested in using technology as part of the game.

Der Waffle Mous posted:

Is it possible to have a pathfinder thread that doesn't devolve into horrible bickering?

I want to hear about Golarion or level 20 fighters and their generous fear save bonuses.

Angry Diplomat posted:

if you want the hobby to grow then go buy some other systems instead of bitching about a company's entirely sensible decisions in an internet thread.

Gerund posted:

Mikam, 75% of iPhone users are over 25, so are we debating what young means? And I'm pretty sure that the 16-year-old iPhone demographic has more competing for their attention such as Snowboarding.

Gerund posted:

But that's my point- it isn't really sensible. DDI tools and such are great because they are ways to make the away-from-table dithering. A company spending resources developing an app for an iphone to solve something that shouldn't even exist is depressing at best. Collectively, I'd rather the RPG hobby companies continue to try as a whole to grow the market than work on projects that aren't related to anything but serving the 25+ clannish mentality.

Angry Diplomat posted:

what do you mean "shouldn't even exist." the system exists in its present state precisely because there is a strong core of players who prefer the system to work in exactly that way. this is a game marketed specifically to a particular subgroup of gamers, and some of those gamers will enjoy this app and will use it. this means that it is entirely reasonable and in fact highly recommended for paizo to create it, because they can parlay it into corporate gain

also please define "growing the market" and explain to me how a company is to do this productively by abandoning its flagship line and refusing to pursue little side projects related to it, thanks

mixitwithblop posted:

Lone Wolf has been talking about adding the Bestiary and new player class data sets to Hero Lab... they also hinted at a bit more(above). And yet now it seems things are delayed until they have more 'talks' with Paizo.
http://forums.wolflair.com/showpost.php?p=36174&postcount=31

Gerund posted:

Gerund posted:

The Pathfinder system is a mess. I think if we're going to like hyperbole like Death to 3.5 then I think we're in agreement.

Gerund posted:

Saying that even a major chunk of the Pathfinder customer base is playing it because they love the system is ludicrous to me. Say they don't want to convert to 4E or that they have all these books to use, sure, but the system itself is a Jenga tower of ill-suited rules.

Gerund posted:

Now, is this app going to drive a profit? I imagine, but ultimately it will be a pyrrhic thing- selling to the already easily-advertised app-crazy gadget loving wonks and not piercing into a wider "gamer" market. Part of this is because Pathfinder is a lovely system that needs a smart-phone to play reasonably* and that cost becomes an additional barrier to entry for the under-25 set (as you've heard me say before without trying to argue with it). Are groups really going to be any more inviting when it turns out that to join up you should get a smartphone and maybe your own 500 page handbook?

Gerund posted:

And so when I say "growing the market", I mean working on products that are not restrictive and short-sighted like an iPhone app: such as a starter-box as I said before. Still related, and far more useful to a larger public than "hey check this new feature for my iPhone."

Rescue Toaster posted:

My group hasn't played in a while and I've been thinking about starting a pathfinder game. I like some of the things pathfinder has done, and we played 3.5 for years and liked it just fine, but I'm really not sure if I want to invest in the system. The idea of going straight back to vanilla 3.5 doesn't appeal to me very much either.

I think most of the problems at the gaming table actually had little to do with combat rules itself, though. I'd try 4th edition just for simplicity's sake, but I just hate hate hate what 4th edition did to caster's spellbooks. So I feel stuck with the old broken rear end d20 system whether it be 3.5 or PF.

Tolan posted:

Gotcha.

Well, that said, there's not a heck of a lot of conversion you necessarily have to do. When I run the 3.5 Adventure Paths I usually just bump the hit points of the opponents (from typically average for the HD to 80-100% of max) and calculate the CMB/CMD (which is pretty easy to do). You may need to do some quick & dirty skill rank conversion, depending on whether the group is likely to do sneaky stuff, but I've found that just using the highest Hide/Move Silently bonus and translating Spot directly to Perception works well and can be done on the fly.

The conversion is just for you as the GM; why make it harder on yourself than it needs to be? Not like the players are going to care whether that monster was properly converted to being a 5th level PF fighter from a 5th level 3.5 fighter.

Angry Diplomat posted:

there are tons of people still playing 3.5 because they love the system. there are tons of people playing pathfinder because they love the system. repeat for every other edition. a lot of grognards cried at wotc because they wanted 4e to be exactly like 3.5 but with minor updates, so paizo saw that and went, "oh hey we can capitalize on this" and made exactly that.

Tolan posted:

Well, the whole game is basically available for free if you're OK with not having printed books. The Pathfinder Reference Document is complete, unlike the d20 SRD (which lacked a few things like XP tables, as I recall). So you can certainly start with that. The PDF version is also only $10 if you want the art, too, and don't mind a digital format.

So you really can check it out without really forking over much cash if you're willing to play without a physical rulebook.

Angry Diplomat posted:

there are tons of people still playing 3.5 because they love the system. there are tons of people playing pathfinder because they love the system. repeat for every other edition. a lot of grognards cried at wotc because they wanted 4e to be exactly like 3.5 but with minor updates, so paizo saw that and went, "oh hey we can capitalize on this" and made exactly that.

Kvantum posted:

It's also that some of the Paizo staff are those grognards. The whole "no Vancian spellcasting" thing was (at least they claimed) a real part of their decision to not go along with the GSL and publish 4e-compatible stuff.

Tolan posted:

I only buff HP because I've got 5-6 players, usually, so leaving monsters (particularly "boss" monsters) at average HP means they go do in a round or two.

Not a bad thing, necessarily, but I find we get more enjoyment from having the combat go for 6-7 rounds.

Oh, almost forgot--you'll want to check any spells the opponents might be using to make sure they haven't significantly changed from 3.5. There aren't a huge amount of them that did, but some (particularly polymorph effects) did get a fairly major overhaul.

happyelf posted:

It required them to clear their OGL stock and abandon the OGL, if they were going to publish GSL products.

happyelf posted:

The problem with the GSL wasn't 'THEY CONTROL US' or any of thsat hysteria bullshit. The problem was a genuinly horrible clause in the original GSL that forbade a company from publishing or even selling OGL products while they also had GSL products.

It required them to clear their OGL stock and abandon the OGL, if they were going to publish GSL products.

Mow this is IIRC no longer the case with the GSL. Last I checked, all you have to do is render them celarly distinct in a product. But back then for a company of any size, it was a huge deal, involving not only a complete change in their product line, but the end of their old product lines.

This was the real problem with the GSL. Everything else is bullshit but this is a straight up bad thing, and the only real mistake that WOTC made- and it's a big one. It's clearly a clause inserted by some executive type jackass, and it's since been erased, but the damage is well and truly done.

moths posted:

This wasn't the case. The original licence was that a product had to be one system or the other. Ie: You couldn't sell a 3e adventure that also had 4e stats in the back, or vice versa.

quote:

If you wanted to update your Tomb of Licensed Adventure from 3e to 4e, you'd first have to get rid of the 3e backstock before you could start moving the 4e stock. They didn't want to be fighting against their old stuff for shelf space, and that makes sense.

mixitwithblop posted:

1. WoTC reserves the right to modify the agreement at any time. Hence, if they make a change you don't want to agree to, well you can no longer distribute your product.

quote:

2. You can't just slap the GSL license on your product and ship it. You have to deal with WoTC directly before attempting to publish your product.

quote:

3. WoTC reserves the right to terminate your license at any time. WoTC also reserves the right to terminate the GSL completely, in which you case you get a whopping six months to sell your stock and then its done.

quote:

4. You basically can't redefine almost anything that's in the core rulebooks. All those cool d20 based custom gameworld products? Gone! You can't describe character creation or advancement at all. It's their way, or the highway.