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the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

:negative:
Just realized that the 9th level human feat that lets you take a free multiclass dedication doesn't work for Acrobat or Linguist from the APG since they don't have the multiclass tag.

drat, I was really looking forward to that free path to Legendary Acrobatics.

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Sephyr
Aug 28, 2012
A question; Does the Shaman's Spirit Magic lists get added to his spell list to be prepared normally, or are they just meant for spontaneous casting?

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021

I am a seasoned Dungeons and Dragons player and I wanted to extend that into something maybe a little more complex and customizable. I found pathfinder and I've been reading a bit about it. I am interested in picking up the game but I don't know much about where to get started. Is this "paizo" website the official platform? And if so should I just start from there?

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

ParisFascistWeek posted:

I am a seasoned Dungeons and Dragons player and I wanted to extend that into something maybe a little more complex and customizable. I found pathfinder and I've been reading a bit about it. I am interested in picking up the game but I don't know much about where to get started. Is this "paizo" website the official platform? And if so should I just start from there?

Yep, Paizo is the publisher. You likely want to play Pathfinder 2e, not 1e, and honestly the Beginner Box is probably a great place to start. It's got starter stuff for you and some friends to get a game going, then smoothly continues into the full game with more complexity and customization options once you've played through it.

It should (I haven't checked, but I'm guessing) be available for digital play on Roll20, if you want to get it all set up and ready to go with no trouble on your end.

Unlike D&D 5e, Paizo sells full PDFs of their rulebooks; also unlike D&D, there is no main digital service. Buying something like the Beginner Box on Roll20 generally gives you a discount if you want to buy the PDF from Paizo themselves separately, and of course physical copies are also available.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

ParisFascistWeek posted:

I am a seasoned Dungeons and Dragons player and I wanted to extend that into something maybe a little more complex and customizable. I found pathfinder and I've been reading a bit about it. I am interested in picking up the game but I don't know much about where to get started. Is this "paizo" website the official platform? And if so should I just start from there?

Yes, Paizo makes Pathfinder and Paizo.com is the official site.

You would want to start with the Core Rulebook which is available as a PDF for $15 (or in hard-cover for $60): https://paizo.com/products/btq01zp3?Pathfinder-Core-Rulebook. The PDF is automatically updated whenever a new printing with errata happens.

There's also a free official site with all the rules here, if you want to just check it out before buying in: https://2e.aonprd.com/

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

Pathfinder First Edition (PF1) is 3.5 with a fresh coat of paint and has basically the same positives and negatives as 3.5 including a horrible grapple flowchart.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition (PF2) is a much more modern and is pretty good but a little light on content for now, although supplements are steadily coming out at a good pace. It is much lower powered generally.

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021

Arivia posted:

Yep, Paizo is the publisher. You likely want to play Pathfinder 2e, not 1e, and honestly the Beginner Box is probably a great place to start. It's got starter stuff for you and some friends to get a game going, then smoothly continues into the full game with more complexity and customization options once you've played through it.

It should (I haven't checked, but I'm guessing) be available for digital play on Roll20, if you want to get it all set up and ready to go with no trouble on your end.

Unlike D&D 5e, Paizo sells full PDFs of their rulebooks; also unlike D&D, there is no main digital service. Buying something like the Beginner Box on Roll20 generally gives you a discount if you want to buy the PDF from Paizo themselves separately, and of course physical copies are also available.

Ah yes I am familiar with Roll20 and I really enjoy how it allows for transparency and clears up any confusion for people playing over long distances (showing the dice rolls in a chat log, a physical interactive map etc.)

It's really really nice to maintain friendships through quarantine

Luebbi
Jul 28, 2000
Next to what has already been said, there are two absolutely essential things for Pathfinder 2E you should know:

Nethys 2E is a site with ALL the rules, including feats, classes, creatures, and all books. It's great for looking up different feats, for example.

Pathbuilder is a seriously amazing App for building characters for Android. It has everything and is very quick and intuitive. It's free version is already great, and for a one-time payment of like 5,50 € you get companions, familiars and some other stuff. If you ever switch from Roll20 to Foundry, Foundry even has a Pathbuilder Import Option (simply input a 6-digit code and you're done).

"DND5E with added complexity" is a good way to describe the system, at least until you get more into it and see the finer differences and nuances. There are a LOT of little things your characters can do, both in and out of combat, and at first it can feel overwhelming. But the system is complex mainly to give a rules framework for anything you want to do.

Example? I always struggle with what info to give my players in DND when they face a new monster. Should they know of its resistances? Do I have them roll for it? If so, what DC? does it cost an action? There is no right way to play this.

In PF2E, if a player wants to find this out, he spends one of his three actions per round on a Recall Knowledge check, rolls the appropiate skill. The DC for that is in the monster description.

Every item has a level and price associated with it. It's pretty easy to set up an Alchemist's shop on the fly, just pull some level appropiate potions up and you're done.

Hope you have fun with the system!

Luebbi fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Feb 19, 2021

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Luebbi posted:

Next to what has already been said, there are two absolutely essential things for Pathfinder 2E you should know:

Nethys 2E is a site with ALL the rules, including feats, classes, creatures, and all books. It's great for looking up different feats, for example.

Pathbuilder is a seriously amazing App for building characters for Android. It has everything and is very quick and intuitive. It's free version is already great, and for a one-time payment of like 5,50 € you get companions, familiars and some other stuff. If you ever switch from Roll20 to Foundry, Foundry even has a Pathbuilder Import Option (simply input a 6-digit code and you're done).

"DND5E with added complexity" is a good way to describe the system, at least until you get more into it and see the finer differences and nuances. There are a LOT of little things your characters can do, both in and out of combat, and at first it can feel overwhelming. But the system is complex mainly to give a rules framework for anything you want to do.

Example? I always struggle with what info to give my players in DND when they face a new monster. Should they know of its resistances? Do I have them roll for it? If so, what DC? does it cost an action? There is no right way to play this.

In PF2E, if a player wants to find this out, he spends one of his three actions per round on a Recall Knowledge check, rolls the appropiate skill. The DC for that is in the monster description.

Every item has a level and price associated with it. It's pretty easy to set up an Alchemist's shop on the fly, just pull some level appropiate potions up and you're done.

Hope you have fun with the system!

IIRC, Nethys is actually officially endorsed by Paizo as THE wiki for Pathfinder content.

GetDunked
Dec 16, 2011

respectfully
Another thing to note is that the PF2 compendium content on Roll20 is generally locked behind paywalls so you'll have to essentially buy another copy of whatever book in order to have it accessible in game, unless you want to enter everything manually yourself. You do get ready-to-use tokens and portraits for the monsters and NPCs, though.

I've been using Foundry as my VTT after switching from Roll20 (following the recommendation from upthread), which has a community-made 2e module that includes everything available under the OGL. The downside is that unlike the official content on Roll20 it doesn't include tokens or artwork, but generally I just grab the art from Nethys, which has most of the art available for monsters, and crop it into tokens for the ones I intend to use.

Seldon
Dec 21, 2008
Since we've kinda pivoted to talking about VTTs a little bit; I agree that Foundry is better than Roll20 - if you're looking primarily for Paizo-published content and not having to do any setup, Fantasy Grounds is the way to go for PF2. The platform is ugly and unintuitive, and the devs are a little "if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong" on the forums, but considering the PF2 rules are basically a giant flowchart / algorithm it synergizes well.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

Seldon posted:

Since we've kinda pivoted to talking about VTTs a little bit; I agree that Foundry is better than Roll20 - if you're looking primarily for Paizo-published content and not having to do any setup, Fantasy Grounds is the way to go for PF2. The platform is ugly and unintuitive, and the devs are a little "if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong" on the forums, but considering the PF2 rules are basically a giant flowchart / algorithm it synergizes well.

Roll20 has a litany of faults, but my first week of PF2E on Foundry as incredibly underwhelming. So far, it's been all style, but no substance.

Seldon
Dec 21, 2008

Toshimo posted:

Roll20 has a litany of faults, but my first week of PF2E on Foundry as incredibly underwhelming. So far, it's been all style, but no substance.

That's my point about Fantasy Grounds, it's all substance and no style.

It could use a little more style. Heck a lot more style.

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

i dunno my experience in Foundry in 2E has been pretty fine?

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021

GetDunked posted:

Another thing to note is that the PF2 compendium content on Roll20 is generally locked behind paywalls so you'll have to essentially buy another copy of whatever book in order to have it accessible in game, unless you want to enter everything manually yourself. You do get ready-to-use tokens and portraits for the monsters and NPCs, though.

I've been using Foundry as my VTT after switching from Roll20 (following the recommendation from upthread), which has a community-made 2e module that includes everything available under the OGL. The downside is that unlike the official content on Roll20 it doesn't include tokens or artwork, but generally I just grab the art from Nethys, which has most of the art available for monsters, and crop it into tokens for the ones I intend to use.

I ran a campaign for a year with the same party using roll20 for the interactive map and initiative tracker. It was good for what it was but I've heard bad things about roll20 in general, including the paywall stuff. The tabletop RPG fanbase has grown in its media presence (and certainly since my childhood) but it's still a small, tight-knit group. We should be accessible and charitable to one another and it just seems a bit grubby to charge for someone else's intellectual property.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

ParisFascistWeek posted:

I ran a campaign for a year with the same party using roll20 for the interactive map and initiative tracker. It was good for what it was but I've heard bad things about roll20 in general, including the paywall stuff. The tabletop RPG fanbase has grown in its media presence (and certainly since my childhood) but it's still a small, tight-knit group. We should be accessible and charitable to one another and it just seems a bit grubby to charge for someone else's intellectual property.

Wait... what? This post doesn't make any sense. Please explain. It sounds like you think that R20 shouldn't be charging for their services, which is a weird take.

ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021
CEO is a douchebag. Also that's what ads are for and they already have ads

GetDunked
Dec 16, 2011

respectfully

Toshimo posted:

Wait... what? This post doesn't make any sense. Please explain. It sounds like you think that R20 shouldn't be charging for their services, which is a weird take.

Roll20 already charges a monthly/yearly subscription fee for premium features (including storage space which is very limited by default and the ability to let your players use your compendium books), but also you're paying nearly full price to get access to the compendium content which is already available for free under OGL, so all you're really paying for is the pre-cropped tokens and convenience of not having to manually enter all the data. You can get a very slight discount (like 10%) if you already own the book digitally by linking your Paizo account, but you're still buying another copy of content that is already free elsewhere. That being said, Archives of Nethys now has lore and official artwork in its monster entries, so by that logic I'm not sure it's even worth buying the PDFs.

Seldon posted:

Since we've kinda pivoted to talking about VTTs a little bit; I agree that Foundry is better than Roll20 - if you're looking primarily for Paizo-published content and not having to do any setup, Fantasy Grounds is the way to go for PF2. The platform is ugly and unintuitive, and the devs are a little "if it doesn't work you're doing it wrong" on the forums, but considering the PF2 rules are basically a giant flowchart / algorithm it synergizes well.

I've been using FG for a D&D 5E campaign (as a player, not a DM, so I can't speak to that) and "ugly and unintuitive" may as well be their official motto. That being said, once you get used to its many foibles the automation is quite handy, but good god do they need someone new to look at their UI. Like...



Until recently, this was the color picking UI. You have to assemble the RGB values you want by clicking the different size circles like you're making change (big=100, med=10, small=1). The program feels like it's designed by aliens sometimes.

GetDunked fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Feb 21, 2021

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Toshimo posted:

Roll20 has a litany of faults, but my first week of PF2E on Foundry as incredibly underwhelming. So far, it's been all style, but no substance.

I'm curious how you're using foundry that you were underwhelmed with its PF2E support? It's pretty incredible, especially compared to the Roll20. Just the fact that you can load up a large map without crashing half your players puts it way ahead of Roll20, but the lighting is much better, the customization of the walls is much better, the rules support is mostly complete and they add all bestiaries/rules for books pretty much as soon as they come out at no cost to you. The only hassle is they don't have a license with Paizo and no one has written a module to import the art from bestiaries so you have to create your own tokens, but even that's a lot easier than in Roll20 with compendium mapper and tokenizer.

Roll20 doesn't even have built in support for a player to make a secret check, so if you want someone to roll to do a secret check you either have to be a roll20 pro subscriber and use some awkward api script, or you have to know all your players various bonuses so you can do it yourself as GM each time. You can just prompt the player to make a secret roll and they can do it from their sheet, especially useful if you need a bunch of them at once as they enter a new room and begin investigating, but also great to keep the flow of combat going for recall knowledge checks on monsters. The turn tracker is also better. I've used Roll20 since the open beta in 2012 and I can't think of a single thing at this point it does better than foundry.

I totally forgot about the patherbuilder import vs. Roll20's "charactermancer coming, any year now."

Anyway, if you're going to play pf2e in a VTT just use foundry, it's much better.

Lotus Aura
Aug 16, 2009

KNEEL BEFORE THE WICKED KING!

M. Night Skymall posted:

Roll20 doesn't even have built in support for a player to make a secret check

Roll20 absolutely has a lot of flaws, but this is not one of them. It does have that by default, for free. If you're using the character sheet it has, there's a toggle that makes them only visible to the roller and the GM, and if you're not using the sheet it is still very, very easy to do (though I don't know why you wouldn't be using it in this scenario).

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Dragonatrix posted:

Roll20 absolutely has a lot of flaws, but this is not one of them. It does have that by default, for free. If you're using the official sheet it has, there's a toggle that makes them only visible to the roller and the GM, and if you're not using the official sheet it is still very, very easy to do (though I don't know why you wouldn't be using it in this scenario).

The roller isn't supposed to see the roll in pathfinder 2e though, that's the point of a secret check. If a player rolls a 1 on their recall knowledge check and you lie to them about the knowledge, it's not very believable. Sure you can all roleplay it, but it's easier when the VTT you're using actually supports the RAW.

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch

M. Night Skymall posted:

The roller isn't supposed to see the roll in pathfinder 2e though, that's the point of a secret check. If a player rolls a 1 on their recall knowledge check and you lie to them about the knowledge, it's not very believable. Sure you can all roleplay it, but it's easier when the VTT you're using actually supports the RAW.

you can just do that as a dm roll

it’s a little clunky but you can make it work

Lord_Hambrose
Nov 21, 2008

*a foul hooting fills the air*



Honestly, I wasn't sold on foundry at first but after I figured it out it was such a huge improvement. I can't imagine going back to roll20 at this point. I don't hate roll20 or anything but they really need some big changes to even make me look at it again.

Also, a one time purchase blows a monthly fee away every time.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

M. Night Skymall posted:

The roller isn't supposed to see the roll in pathfinder 2e though, that's the point of a secret check. If a player rolls a 1 on their recall knowledge check and you lie to them about the knowledge, it's not very believable. Sure you can all roleplay it, but it's easier when the VTT you're using actually supports the RAW.

Bruh, it's literally 2 clicks and part of the default free UI. I'll do an effortpost about the rest of the stuff later, but think for a minute: if you are going this hard on something you are obviously wrong about when people try to explain it to you, how objective are you really being about the merits of the products?

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Actually, a Complete Dipshit's Guide to Roll20 would be sweet, because I only use it to play in PFS games, and I can barely figure out what the hell is going on. I've managed to get enough of a character sheet typed in to use, move my token around, and do rolls in chat.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Declan MacManus posted:

you can just do that as a dm roll

it’s a little clunky but you can make it work

Yeah, you can absolutely play any system as long as the VTT you're using is capable of rolling dice at all, but roll20 doesn't have automation that supports the basic rules of the system.

Toshimo posted:

Bruh, it's literally 2 clicks and part of the default free UI. I'll do an effortpost about the rest of the stuff later, but think for a minute: if you are going this hard on something you are obviously wrong about when people try to explain it to you, how objective are you really being about the merits of the products?
Alright man, here's me:

Here's what happens when I go into my PF2E roll20 demo game and click "whisper rolls to gm" on the character sheet and click perception as a player:

You'll note here that I can see the result of my own roll, but none of the other players can see it. No idea why I give a poo poo if other players see the roll, but ok.
Here's what a blind GM roll looks like in foundry. The top is player perspective the bottom is GM perspective.

If there's a way to mimic that in Roll20 w/o the API that's cool, I don't know how to do it and that's my bad.

poo poo, I'm a current subscriber of roll20 how biased against the platform can I be. I just got done DMing a year long 5e campaign on it. I currently play in a PF1E campaign on it. I actually was planning to run my PF2E campaign on roll20, but they couldn't even be bothered to release the latest AP, so I figured if I was going to have to import the AP into a VTT anyway, I might as well see what all the fuss is about with Foundry. It's much better for PF2E. Roll20 support for 5e is fine and I doubt I would switch to foundry for 5e because having an actual license so you can provide integration with the products for 5e is important. I can just buy stuff off the Roll20 marketplace and get a ton of stuff done for me, foundry has basically nothing worth purchasing for art and hardly any licensing etc. which is absolutely the most annoying part. It does have a module to import PDFs you buy from Paizo though(That only works on PF2E pdfs), which does a lot of the heavy lifting with fitting the maps to the grid and drawing walls/doors and importing all the art and text as journal entries. That's enough that the rest of the prep isn't too bad.

Roll20 is pretty good for 5e, obviously they know where their money comes from and they support the thing that brings it in. I don't blame them for that, but it isn't PF2E and they just don't support it well.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
You're bent out of shape because it doesn't spam the player with a pointless "???" line? Like, you just demonstrated the process and R20 is actually closer to the book description. I don't get what you want from this.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Toshimo posted:

You're bent out of shape because it doesn't spam the player with a pointless "???" line? Like, you just demonstrated the process and R20 is actually closer to the book description. I don't get what you want from this.

No, it shows the player what they rolled. Have you guys actually played pathfinder 2e? This is the rule I'm trying to replicate.

The player shouldn't see the roll, on roll20 the player sees the roll, it's not a secret check.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

M. Night Skymall posted:

No, it shows the player what they rolled. Have you guys actually played pathfinder 2e? This is the rule I'm trying to replicate.

The player shouldn't see the roll, on roll20 the player sees the roll, it's not a secret check.

It's a secret roll. The GM rolls it, not the player.

Luebbi
Jul 28, 2000
I've switched from Roll20 to Foundry and wouldn't want to switch back. The modularity of the mods makes the system great, in my opinion. The developers of the PF2 game system are also very active, and extremely helpful on Discord. New things are constantly being added.

For example, I love the new Effects added the the PF2 Foundry game system. There are effects that you can drag and drop onto characters now. For example, this catfolk swashbuckler has used her Dueling Cape, has Panache and had Magic Weapon cast on her. There are symbols representing all three effects. The AC is changed automatically, the damage is also calculated with these additions in mind. There's effects for spells, monk stances and so on.



They also recently added "Loot Actors", making distribution of treasure a breeze.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream
When you're DMing in roll20 there's an option that makes it a hidden from all players. You just click that and there's the hidden roll. That's a default mechanic.

https://wiki.roll20.net/Dice_Reference#Rolling_in_Secret

You just do the same /gmroll you would do as a player but as the gm because /gmroll means only the roller and the GM can see it and if the GM is the Roller then buddy that's a GM only roll.

quote:

Rolling in Secret

By default, any rolls that you make are seen by everyone in the game with you (including all players). If you want to roll in secret, you can use the /gmroll command to perform a roll that only the GM and the original player who made the roll can see. So if you're the GM, doing a /gmroll will only be visible to you. It's a great way to perform skill checks in secret.

Luebbi
Jul 28, 2000
The difference here is that the players don't know the GM rolled for them. It can feel a bit arbitrary since players don't have any feedback about that. In person, a GM can roll a skillcheck behind the screen and be theatralic about it - the players know something happened. A blind GM roll in Roll20 gives zero feedback to the players that it happened.

I think that's the point of having players do secret rolls in Foundry. You can let them roll the dice (which is fun for them), they see and hear something happened. Even if you fudge the roll in secret, they will feel like they at least had a chance to find that trap, for example.

Also, you can make secret rolls public later on in Foundry, if you wish - if just to show the players they rolled a nat 1 on that check on finding traps so you can all have a chuckle about it.

Luebbi fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Feb 21, 2021

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

I don't know why it's so confusing, but let's say that your player is playing a ranger with monster hunter. Pretty much every time they attack something new they will roll a secret check for recall knowledge based on whatever the monster is. It's easier for me to say, "cool roll a blind recall knowledge occultism," when they hunt prey than it is for me to DM and also have that particular character's sheet open at all times so that I know what their bonus is for the particular recall knowledge subtype they need to roll. Roll20 can't do that baseline. That's all I was saying, it can't do it without the API. I know this because I was planning to DM on Roll20 and had already found an API script that solves this super obvious problem.

That wasn't even meant to be my main problem with PF2E on Roll20, it's that they're obviously phasing out their support for PF2E, just like they did with PF1E previously. They aren't planning to release Abomination Vaults on the marketplace at all, and the marketplace is the main draw of roll20 to me.

Fake Edit: ^^ This too.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
I literally do this every week. "Oh, my player needs to roll a secret check? Click their character, click GMroll, click their skill, click GMroll again." It's all done in like 2 seconds, and... it follows the rules. Secret checks are Secret. The player doesn't even have to know they are rolling (and often shouldn't). The concept of forcing your player to be the one to do the secret rolling is basically a homebrew thing, so yeah, that might not be supported out-of-the-box. And I've never had a player complain that I've said "rolling a secret Recall check for you".

blastron
Dec 11, 2007

Don't doodle on it!


When are any Secret checks done without the knowledge of the player? All the ones I can think of (Seek, Recall Knowledge, Stealth) require the player to initiate the action.

This GM roll thing is a weird hill to make a stand on but, gently caress it: Foundry’s blind rolls are vastly easier for me as a GM than Roll20’s. Tabbing through a half-dozen extra windows to get to a specific player’s sheet, often while I still have monster stat blocks open and cluttering my screen, is a pretty big pain point. Making the player do it reduces load on me and also reduces the overall amount of work that needs to be done by putting it in the hands of people who are better set up to roll on their own sheets.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

blastron posted:

When are any Secret checks done without the knowledge of the player? All the ones I can think of (Seek, Recall Knowledge, Stealth) require the player to initiate the action.

This GM roll thing is a weird hill to make a stand on but, gently caress it: Foundry’s blind rolls are vastly easier for me as a GM than Roll20’s. Tabbing through a half-dozen extra windows to get to a specific player’s sheet, often while I still have monster stat blocks open and cluttering my screen, is a pretty big pain point. Making the player do it reduces load on me and also reduces the overall amount of work that needs to be done by putting it in the hands of people who are better set up to roll on their own sheets.

I mean, read the page (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=334), but... about half the time for me. Perception/stealth check are quite often hidden. I feel, based on the feedback here, I should really do a "Basics of Roll20" post, because it's really wild to me that you guys have built this elaborate and byzantine way of interacting with the UI in the worst possible way and it's obviously miserable for you.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

Luebbi posted:

The difference here is that the players don't know the GM rolled for them.

You can...talk to the player? Like you probably already are as you're actively DMing a game? If you want it to be just something that player realizes is happening you can send text on to them.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Toshimo posted:

I mean, read the page (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=334), but... about half the time for me. Perception/stealth check are quite often hidden. I feel, based on the feedback here, I should really do a "Basics of Roll20" post, because it's really wild to me that you guys have built this elaborate and byzantine way of interacting with the UI in the worst possible way and it's obviously miserable for you.

I think you just don't know how much better things can work, what have you used besides Roll20? I came from DMing 4e in maptools, roll20 was a fantastic upgrade when I started using it, and it's served me well these last..nearly 9 years. I've pretty much only played TTRPGs online for more than a decade now(mostly on Roll20). Just because you can make something work in a system doesn't mean it can't be improved on.

Foundry's killer features for me are:
Full support for the PF2E ruleset, with updates as soon as a new book comes out for free and built into the base foundry PF2E system. Automatically calculates all your class features and bonuses, you can simply drag and drop an effect to make a macro that will turn that effect on and off for a player and it will recalculate on the fly, if you click on a token and give it the proned condition for example it will automatically make it flat footed and apply the penalties to the sheet for you, simply right click the conditions off the token and it removes the penalties off the sheet. If your bard does bardic inspiration, you can just click to apply that effect to your token and it will automatically apply the bonuses to your subsequent rolls, this works with mostly anything. It will even check if the bonuses should stack and layer them correctly.

Import almost every(probably not all the PFS stuff) Paizo written adventures with all journal entries and maps(with full walls/doors) from the PDFs you buy off Paizo's site. You do have to manually tokenize all the art, which is annoying, but that's it.

Fantastic lighting support. Players can turn a torch on/off with a click, you can apply monochromatic colors to the vision of tokens that have night vision if they're in the dark, but the portions of the room that are lit will appear in color. It has 1-way walls so you can simulate cliffs and roofs where you can see off them but not up them. It has doors that can be opened and closed with a click by the players, or locked by the GM so they can see the door but not open it. Easily drag/drop light sources onto the map to simulate a light turning on/off or a cast of dancing lights. Also a bunch of weather effects and other poo poo but I admit I haven't played with them much.

Drag and drop journal entries onto the map to place a gm note pin there, double clicking the note will bring up the journal entry so you can read it when the players enter that room. This seems trivial, but it's really nice.

Rules compliant spell areas of effect that you can just drag and drop and rotate at will. Never again will I have to argue with a player about what squares their stupid cone effect hits and if they can avoid the other PCs etc. (Ok I'll still have to do that because they'll be like no no I shot it over their heads, the dragon's tall man!..but it's better.)

Import characters from Pathbuilder 2e and Herolabs online with a click(I think roll20 has a herolabs importer though at minimum).

You can put loot onto special treasure chest NPCs that the players can open and look at and distribute to their sheets by drag/dropping from the chest. If you put items onto monsters you can loot the items off those bodies into the chest with a click and the players can see what they got, it's super neat. You can mystify magic items so that they can't tell what they are as well so they can drag an unidentified magic item onto their sheet and figure it out later, but the GM can still tell what that random unidentified sword or specific potion they had was supposed to be when they go to identify their magic items in the future.

It also has a very active support discord, so if you are trying to figure out how to make something work automatically in your game they will tell you how, or if it can't currently be automated they'll probably immediately start working on fixing it/implementing it into the core PF2E module for you.

Finally, it's harder to quantify, but what really makes Foundry great is the module system. It allows open source developers to improve and expand on the base VTT in ways that Roll20 just won't let you. You can change the whole UI and do all kinds of things with modules. A lot of the things I mentioned above are actually modules and not baseline, but modules are free and trivial to install and use so they're effectively baseline.

Oh I guess even more finally, it's dirt cheap compared to Roll20. You can get the license for 50 dollars, which won't even get you the core rulebook on roll20, and then you can self host to try it out (or forever.) I pay for hosting because it saves enough hassle for me, but it's definitely not needed. There are no books to buy other than the adventures you might want to run from Paizo, it includes all the rules and the full bestiaries of every book released by Paizo, including adventures and APs. Also obviously no art built in, but you can get pretty much all the bestiary art from AoN and tokenize things yourself if you'd like, it's just not built into foundry for licensing reasons.

All that said, Foundry is great specifically for PF2E because PF2E uses the OGL and Paizo has a very permissive license with its rules and monsters, this means that they can integrate all the rules and monsters from a new book as soon its released into the base PF2E system. I haven't tried Foundry for 5e, but it doesn't even interest me because they don't have the ability to import adventures and journals and all the other automation that makes prepping an adventure on a VTT easier nowadays.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Honestly, i find all rule integration things more cumbersome and annoying than just everyone having their own own sheets in an excel/phones or something while roll20 is just a diceroller with a blank sheet you can draw/place units on

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Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

Andrast posted:

Honestly, i find all rule integration things more cumbersome and annoying than just everyone having their own own sheets in an excel/phones or something while roll20 is just a diceroller with a blank sheet you can draw/place units on

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