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ParisFascistWeek
Jan 26, 2021

Andrast posted:

Honestly, i find all rule integration things more cumbersome and annoying than just everyone having their own own sheets in an excel/phones or something while roll20 is just a diceroller with a blank sheet you can draw/place units on

I think it's fun to use a standardized sheet where we all move our tokens together and visualize everything etc. It's just really nice to have imo

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Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
after blowing a ton of money on Fantasy Grounds only for it to not loving work for most of my players I'm just wary about spending money on any VTT stuff

Seldon
Dec 21, 2008

Blockhouse posted:

after blowing a ton of money on Fantasy Grounds only for it to not loving work for most of my players I'm just wary about spending money on any VTT stuff

I have had mostly good experiences with Fantasy Grounds so you might be able to recover that cost by figuring it out. WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGE AS HARDER THAN IT SHOULD BE.

My favorite thing about it is the party sheet, there's a clear "this is visible vs this is secret" toggle, all the PCs are in it in a spreadsheet, and you can set a DC at the bottom and either roll something for everyone at once, or just double click an individual box and it'll automatically compare their roll to the set DC for the 4 possible results.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013
With the mention about Foundry VTT modules, that's the thing that's been the big seller for the people I know who use it. The theater inserts mod to set up 'cutscene' or 'visual novel' moments using character art, ruler mods that show how many move actions it will take to get to any particular square based on character speed, easy UI changes like having an arbitrary arrangement of hotbars with macros, customized tooltips that show whatever info you want, you name it. There's a ton of stuff.



Andrast posted:

Honestly, i find all rule integration things more cumbersome and annoying than just everyone having their own own sheets in an excel/phones or something while roll20 is just a diceroller with a blank sheet you can draw/place units on

I have the same opinion about Roll20 specifically because its whole character sheet UI is just painfully slow on the computers I normally use. Other tools are probably less annoying about it, though.

VikingofRock
Aug 24, 2008




M. Night Skymall posted:




Players can turn a torch on/off with a click, you can apply monochromatic colors to the vision of tokens that have night vision if they're in the dark

Wait, how do you do those things? Are these a module?

The PF2 Foundry has so many features, but the discoverability isn't great IMO. My players are six or seven sessions in and we are still finding new features fairly regularly.

Cyouni
Sep 30, 2014

without love it cannot be seen
The worst parts I dropped Roll20 for FantasyGrounds for were the hellish connections (oops gotta refresh since Roll20 desynced again) and the fact that I was paying $10 a month for their API access which I constantly had to unbreak. Not to mention their PF2 character sheet was awful, especially during the playtest.

FG is butt-ugly and if I'd had the option originally I might have picked up Foundry instead, but sunk costs and all that. FGU is decent enough, at least, especially since they keep looking to improve it unlike Roll20.

The most confusing part is my 2e GM really really really wants to use Roll20, so he's spending tons of time to make a mod to make it perform more on the level of Foundry.

Edit: FG's dice tower for secret rolls is really nice. I have enough on my plate as a GM already, so not having to manage their character sheets as well mid-session is nice. (Side note: Whoever decided that you should have to manually change the weapon damage dice for a crit on Roll20 needs even more lessons in design than the FG designers.)

Cyouni fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Feb 22, 2021

Luebbi
Jul 28, 2000

VikingofRock posted:

Wait, how do you do those things? Are these a module?

The PF2 Foundry has so many features, but the discoverability isn't great IMO. My players are six or seven sessions in and we are still finding new features fairly regularly.

Those are the Perfect Vision and Torch modules. Another one I think is very, very good is Token Action HUD. For PF2E, it has toggles for things like Panache and Flat-Footed (depending on the character selected). It makes it a lot easier for players to parse what they can do in a fight.



To steer this back to PF2E a little, I'm DMing Extinction Curse soon. I told them the game is combat-heavy and deadly, and that a healer is very much recommended. But the Bard decided to play a rogue instead, now the party is Rogue, Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Wizard. One of them has battle medicine, but I'm pretty sure this is not going to end well for them.

Luebbi fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Feb 22, 2021

Seldon
Dec 21, 2008

Luebbi posted:

One of them has battle medicine, but I'm pretty sure this is not going to end well for them.

In my experience Battle Medicine scales well enough to carry, but we had a Barbarian and a Paladin with it that mostly took care of themselves.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Luebbi posted:

To steer this back to PF2E a little, I'm DMing Extinction Curse soon. I told them the game is combat-heavy and deadly, and that a healer is very much recommended. But the Bard decided to play a rogue instead, now the party is Rogue, Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Wizard. One of them has battle medicine, but I'm pretty sure this is not going to end well for them.

Quick, switch to Abomination Vaults, the player's guide is like "Play a rogue!" so my players went Swashbuckler, fighter, cleric, ranger and no one even took thievery. We stopped after they triggered a trap last session and I'm pretty sure half of them are going to die to it.

Gauntlight is super great though if you haven't looked at it, definitely the most exciting AP for PF2E so far in my opinion, and it ties in beautifully with the beginner box (menace under Otari) and troubles in Otari. It's a lot less "megadungeon" than the description would have you believe. I mean yeah there's a big rear end dungeon, sure, but it's not just a bunch of rooms to clear. It's a pretty good sandbox with a mystery to uncover.

M. Night Skymall fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Feb 22, 2021

HidaO-Win
Jun 5, 2013

"And I did it, because I was a man who had exhausted reason and thus turned to magicks"

Luebbi posted:

Those are the Perfect Vision and Torch modules. Another one I think is very, very good is Token Action HUD. For PF2E, it has toggles for things like Panache and Flat-Footed (depending on the character selected). It makes it a lot easier for players to parse what they can do in a fight.



To steer this back to PF2E a little, I'm DMing Extinction Curse soon. I told them the game is combat-heavy and deadly, and that a healer is very much recommended. But the Bard decided to play a rogue instead, now the party is Rogue, Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Wizard. One of them has battle medicine, but I'm pretty sure this is not going to end well for them.

If someone fills out the key parts of the Medicine Skill Feat tree ( Continual Recovery and Ward Medic) and you make sure to give them a 10 minute break between fights, they will be grand for healing between fights.

During fights the raw power of a max level Heal or Soothe spell is hard to replicate, but Battle Medicine and potions do something.

I’d consider using the Free Archetype variant rule and strongly suggesting that two of the party use that to grab something like Alchemist multiclass or the Blessed One or Medic archetype. That’ll give them a lot more options in combat

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1333

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

The main issue I've found with lacking a magical healer is actually removing some of the worse conditions with long/unlimited durations.

This tends to be more of an issue at higher levels than low, but some stuff like paralyzed, blinded, and petrified can be applied with infinite duration and mostly only removed with magic.

For pure HP healing, Medicine is definitely enough, which is one of my favorite things in this system.

Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants
Long post incoming but I would appreciate advice from people who have played/run Age of Ashes and/or have experience with the Witch Class.

My partner is playing a Curse Witch in the Age of Ashes campaign I'm running and is straight up not having a good time in combat. I posted before about their issue where their hexes just don't seem to ever land. I have to make a lot/almost all of the enemies elite because the party is large, a fighter, a champion, a druid, a ranger, a sorcerer and the witch. We've had one session so far out of at least half a dozen where the witch has felt like they actually contributed. I don't think the sorcerer is having that great a time either, but I don't live with him so I don't hear about it like I do with my partner. The druid focuses on healing and electric arcing so they don't seem to be having the same struggles.

I have a few thoughts:

1) My partner might just be having an extended bad luck streak.

2) This also may just be Level 2 blues since and things will be more fun when they get more spell slots. The witch isn't the best spell caster to begin with.

3) Me having to make enemies elite to keep up with the melee damage might be making their saves too good for the spellcasters to be as effective as they should be.

4) My partner may just not like playing a spell caster as much as they wish they did.



I don't know what I should do. I've debated 2 ways to power up the witch. I saw someone on reddit gave their witch access to two patrons at once so they had more options. I've debated making enemies immune to evil eye only on a critical success so the Witch can try again the next turn if they fail.

I've also debated giving each of the spellcasters a buff to their class dcs and proficiencies either through item or having them get to the next stage of their proficiency sooner. I've heard that Age of Ashes can be rough for spellcasters.

Is there an item that I should be making sure they have access to soon that would help them all out? The melee chars all have +1 items by now.

I can also do nothing for them and just hope level three adds enough additional options for them.

But maybe my partner would be better off playing something else. They love the flavor of witch and playing this character out of combat. They assumed that because this Adventure Path sounds like it has a lot cult stuff they would need a member of the party for Int checks for lore/research so they don't want to switch if that will be important. (I'm not sure if it will, I've only read book 1 so far, but I feel like it's going to be much more fighting cults than learning about them. If this will be a waste I'd like to know). They have another character they were playing in Plaguestone that was a Monk, which was way more fun for them in combat but way less fun out of it.

tl;dr: Does the witch ever get good? Is Age of Ashes, especially with the enemies boosted, too hard for spellcasters? Should my witch just switch back to their old monk and say gently caress it to anyone in the party having an Int stat?

Evilgm
Dec 31, 2014

Epi Lepi posted:

I posted before about their issue where their hexes just don't seem to ever land. I have to make a lot/almost all of the enemies elite
The second part is the cause of the first. You can't give all the bad guys +2 to all their saves and then be surprised they keep passing. Don't make everything elite, add more creatures to fights.

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

I don't think it would be overpowered at all to have Evil Eye just automatically work at the Frightened 1 level. Dirge of Doom is admittedly a higher level bard feat, but bards can spend 1 action to give the entire party a +1 bonus (effectively the same as a -1 penalty to enemies) and does so in an area. Hell, I'm not certain it'd be overpowered to make Evil Eye just 1/turn, no immunity, frightened 1 with no save.

It definitely seems like the Witch really gets the short end of the stick though. They get 6 hp/level, which previously only Sorcerer and Wizard got, but Sorcerer and Wizard also get more spells than all of the other spellcasters (through Sorcerer's just getting more and Wizard's school specialization or generalist bonded item recall). They get the same crappy save and no additional class features distribution as Sor/Wiz (max expert in anything, only gets master Will at 17 and only one "evasion", which most classes get two of, except Sor/Wiz, the most powerful spellcasters). They get to choose their tradition, but so does Sorcerer. They get a good familiar, but are heavily penalized if it dies (unlike the Wizard, who can also get this progression I'm pretty sure, and loses just the familiar if it dies). They get a good familiar, but so can the Wizard who also gets other stuff. Their feats are littered with thematic but not very useful "witch" things like having claw or hair(?) weapons that they don't want to use because of lack of weapon proficiency and the aforementioned 6 hp/level.

I never really played 1e Pathfinder so I don't know much about the Witch class from there. But in my opinion it should basically be the "offensive" version of the bard. Bump them up to 8 hp/level, give them some extra goodies when levelling (bard gets master will at 9th and legendary will at 17th, plus is slightly better than the "full" casters at fighting). Make their hexes better as things that are one-action abilities that automatically apply minor penalties to all enemies in range.

Non-specific to Witch, spellcasters also can feel a little worse than melee because you only get one "big" action a turn, the spell you cast, and while spells are frequently a bit less binary than melee attacks, a) not all of them are and b) you get a limited number of them. Also, while I do think having non-straight attack actions is a strong point of the system (like demoralize, feint, etc, and the multiple attack penalty incentivizing them), I also think they're super heavily weighted into Charisma. All Intelligence really gets is Recall Knowledge, and even then they don't get all of it, and it only gives you really good info on a critical success. (Wisdom would have a similar problem if it weren't for Medicine, probably objectively the best skill to have in PF2e, even if its combat use is pretty strictly limited.)

My group is actually starting the final book of Age of Ashes next, and we've had a good time with it. But I think at bare minimum I'll wait a while for a few more books to run this game again because I do feel like it needs more options and more sanding around the edges to make it a really good game instead of just a good one.

EDIT: struck incorrect info about Witch being penalized overly for familiar loss, which was wrong

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Evilgm posted:

The second part is the cause of the first. You can't give all the bad guys +2 to all their saves and then be surprised they keep passing. Don't make everything elite, add more creatures to fights.

Yeah this is pretty much it. Enemies scale very strongly in PF2E. Sure the players will have action economy on their side against strong single enemies so it's not technically harder than fighting a larger number of easier enemies, but it's a lot more unsatisfying and swingy, especially with something like witch where hitting your initial debuffs means you probably steamroll the enemy, and missing means you do nothing. Larger numbers of weaker enemies both gives the witch a higher chance of landing something, and more enemies to try on if they fail. Just drop in mooks until you're at the encounter budget instead of applying elite. I'm pretty sure Age of Ashes kind of already has a problem with putting the players up against high level single enemies out of the box too, but I haven't run it just read about it.

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008



Witch in 1E is a very high power full progression spellcaster that is on the level of a Wizard, and is generally much stronger than most Sorcerers due to 1E mechanics. Remaking them to be more similar to a Bard would be a really big change for the Witch class.

I will also say that Evil Eye is pretty dang good. It costs 1 action and you can still spam Electric Arc as usual while using Evil Eye.

I will also also say that I was super bored in combat on Wizard until level 5, so it could just take a minute for the class to open up.

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

sugar free jazz posted:

Witch in 1E is a very high power full progression spellcaster that is on the level of a Wizard, and is generally much stronger than most Sorcerers due to 1E mechanics. Remaking them to be more similar to a Bard would be a really big change for the Witch class.

I will also say that Evil Eye is pretty dang good. It costs 1 action and you can still spam Electric Arc as usual while using Evil Eye.

I will also also say that I was super bored in combat on Wizard until level 5, so it could just take a minute for the class to open up.

I don't really want them to be thematically like a Bard, but right now they are pretty much like a Bard mechanically... just worse. Basically I just mean they should get more features than Sor/Wiz (like Bard does, since it doesn't get the 4 spells/level), and that hexes should be 1-action minor offensive effects that always work, like Bard songs (even the offensive one).

Evil Eye is definitely just flat out worse than any of the Bard songs which are also 1-action effects, the first of which every Bard gets for free: Inspire Courage, which gives +1 attack/damage and +1 to saves vs fear for every ally within 60'. (Bard gets a better version of Evil Eye as a level 8 feat, Dirge of Doom, that applies frightened 1 and the "can't reduce below 1" to every enemy within 30'.)

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

Also, totally unprompted since I have some experience now and am reaching the end of a full adventure path, here's what I feel are the pros/cons of PF2e for me:

Pros:
  • The three action system. I definitely like how the scaling cost of some actions and the simplicity of this is very easy to grasp and it makes the game flow a lot smoother than "wait, do I have a move action or a minor action or a bonus action left?" You just have x actions left. This also interacts really well with the quickened/slowed/stunned conditions in a way that feels natural and most of the time, my players don't get really bummed out like getting dazed in 4e since the most typical value is stunned/slowed 1 and two actions is still enough to cast a spell or move and attack. I wish they had done more things with scaling action costs (Magic Missile is a neat example of this, as is Ki Blast), but the potential is there for more and that's still a pro for me.
  • The critical success/failure +10/-10 system. Again, it's mimicing something that's been in previous editions but in a way that's super easy to grasp and works consistently across things. It also gives you a way to make players feel really powerful (when they're fighting lower level enemies, they critically succeed more) and monsters feel dangerous (when fighting higher level enemies, the enemy critically succeeds more). This lets you get pretty granular with the effects in a way that just seems like it works really well.
  • Giving basically every class some kind of "evasion". Nothing makes my players feel better than seeing the save their class is good at come up, rolling a regular success and proclaiming that the wail of the banshee didn't affect them at all. It also lets them make some classes tougher than others in ways other than just boosting hit points. (For example, the fighter gets at least a limited version of this for all three saves, monks' previous extreme save proficiency is represented by them getting to pick one legendary and one master.)
  • The fact that the Medicine skill is a viable method of healing, and you could totally play a whole campaign with no divine spellcaster. My party's healer is a Wizard with a decent Wisdom score, and aside from scary long-term magical effects as I mentioned in my post above, he does an excellent job of keeping the party healthy.
  • The proficiency system. I was suspicious of it at first, but since small bonuses have decent effects due to the +10/-10 thing, the proficiencies for attacks/defenses makes some classes feel pretty different. The fighter hits more than even the other martials because of his starting expert proficiency, and the high-level champion or monk gets hit less than anyone else can. Skill proficiency levels offer a good way to gate feats and other things that is easier to remember than "level x" or "skill rank x".
  • Everyone gets Perception at varying levels based on class. This way you don't always have to make the "decision" to pick the obviously most important skill, you just get it.
  • The Foundry integration people mentioned above is really great and saved me a ton of prep time -- I basically just imported the PDF, set up monster tokens, and then added them to maps. Sometimes I had to do little corrections but for an entire book of Age of Ashes I typically had to do 2-4 hours of prep time, which is nothing compared to what it would take to do it all myself (especially the maps, that's always a pain in the rear end).
  • This is pretty minor but I like that all of the combinations of armor potency + resilient and weapon potency + striking add up to nice, even, easy to remember numbers for prices.

Cons:
  • Skill feats are one of the biggest ones for my group. You get a decent amount of them, and while some of them are very good (Athletics, Intimidation, Medicine), there are many skills that don't have any interesting skill feats worth writing home about (most of the magic skills are the biggest culprits). Also, some gate things that feel annoying to be behind skill feats or feel like "feat tax" just there to justify having something to use a skill feat on (like Intimidating Glare or Group Impression). Skill feats are probably overall the thing my players liked the least, even though some specific skill feats (Scare to Death, Cat Fall) they love. They definitely needed less of these with more impact.
  • The Divine spell list I've complained about previously here, so I won't repost it all here. But the short version is that it is very focused and way less versatile than the others, and many levels don't have very many "fun" spells. Two of my players tried playing a Divine spellcaster and didn't like it, and I also looked at it and thought it didn't seem great.
  • A lot of the martial classes have pretty dull feats in terms of not having effects that aren't "attack, but better" or "attack, but more times". They have plenty of mechanically useful feats, but it still feels like the (non-4e) D&D fighter problem is intact. The wizard gets tons of agency and neat, weird things he can do, and the fighter just swings a sword really hard. At least in some cases here you have some decent mechanical effects, but I'm still disappointed by it.
  • I found it a bit weird that the Rogue is the only base class that gets any extra skills and they get a ton of them. (Investigator also gets these, but I'm going to focus on Rogue because the Investigator is pretty much entirely devoted to skills and so it makes more sense there; the Rogue is more effective in combat.) Other classes get varying amounts of starting trained skills, but every non-Rogue gets the same number of skill increases. It makes it hard for some classes you'd expect to be "skilled" (I'm mostly thinking of Ranger here but there could be other examples) to keep up. With the base number of skill increases you can get a max of three skills to Legendary, which if you go with the classic Ranger you pretty much have to have only Nature/Survival/one other skill. I think Rangers are probably either on par with Rogue combat-wise, or very slightly ahead, so about half as many extra skill boosts as the Rogue seems like it'd be appropriate. The Swashbuckler also doesn't get any extra skill boosts even though their skills are tied heavily into their combat gameplay (though they do get extra skill feats).
  • There are a few classes that just feel like they're not as effective as others to me. I mentioned the Witch above, but the Alchemist is also another example of this. The alchemist is around as limited as spellcasters are in terms of how much they can use their main class feature, but their effects are weaker. (Later on, when they are higher level they can afford to be a bit more freeform with their reagents and so have a bit more flexibility, but only a bit, and it still leaves their effects much weaker.) They also have some weirdness in that they can't ever really attack with their main stat (since they're either using Dex to throw bombs or Str to hit people with mutagens). I think they did a reasonable job balancing most of the classes, but there are a few not great standouts. Cleric also I feel like fits in this because if you stray away much from their "niche" it doesn't feel like it works very well.
  • Ancestry feats are a pretty mixed bag. Some of them have great thematics and cool mechanical effects (elf, aasimar/tiefling, dwarf) while the rest are a bit wimpier.

Here's some Age of Ashes specific ones, that I'll put in spoiler tags:

Pros:
  • (general, all books) I feel like they do a pretty good job with the story as long as you like generic high-fantasy stuff which my party does. The "scale" of the conflict in the book feels like it scales really nicely from clearing skeletons out of a fort in Book 1 to convincing a gold dragon to let you help prevent the end of the world in Book 6.
  • (general, all books) There were a decent amount of breakouts from the normal "explore a dungeon" experience, even though there is also a lot of that, and I'll call out some favorites after this. Not all of them worked, but some of them did.
  • (book 2) My players enjoyed the hex crawl and gaining influence with the Ekujae, as well as finding and deactivating the dragon pillars around the jungle.
  • (book 5) My players really enjoyed this chapter, with the various events to influence the guilds and the heist here in particular was greatly enjoyed by my rogue player.
  • (book 6) We haven't played this one out yet, but I know they're going to like it because it gets suitably extreme for the end of the world and feels like a pretty good conclusion.

Cons:
  • (general, all books) Fire immunity seems way too over-represented in this. I know it's called Age of Ashes, but there are very few ways around total immunity and so if you choose anything based on fire (I'd hate to be a red dragon barbarian, for instance) you're probably going to have a bad time. Very many of the "boss" enemies in this are immune or resistant to fire; the Book 4 and Book 6 "final bosses" are immune to it. This kind of exacerbates the Cleric problems I pointed out since a lot of their offensive spells use fire (or negative, another common immunity).
  • (general, all books) Similar to the above, the players fight way too many golems. The Golem Antimagic is a neat gimmick a few times, but offhand I can remember at least three encounters with stone golems, a clay golem, at least two encounters with alchemical golems, one with iron golems, and one adamantine golem (who can only be killed by very specific things -- hope your players have vorpal adamantine weapons or have a 9th-level dispel magic available!). They're not horrifically bad but they do get a bit dull after a while.
  • (general, all books) Sometimes the adventure gives great guidance on what to do with encounters that are close together and how they interact (like saying "if x hears combat, they'll do this"), but sometimes they put encounters really close together without any DM guidance on what happens if your players initiate loud combat nearby.
  • (book 1) My players didn't like the opening "fight fire" thing at all, I just let them redo it as fighting a few mephits instead. They also weren't a huge fan of the castle rebuilding minigame.
  • (book 4) The players were okay with influencing the various dwarf guilds here, but in my opinion this was done similarly (and better) in Book 5, so it's a minor con because it was a bit repetitive.

This is already super long so I won't add any more to it. We've had a lot of fun with this and I do think it is a pretty good game. I like it better than 5e, but there are a lot of ways that I feel like it could be better.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Evilgm posted:

The second part is the cause of the first. You can't give all the bad guys +2 to all their saves and then be surprised they keep passing. Don't make everything elite, add more creatures to fights.

:yeah:

It specifically talks about this in the core book (page 489).

quote:

For each additional character in the party beyond the fourth, increase your XP budget by the amount shown in the Character Adjustment value for your encounter in Table 10–1: Encounter Budget. If you have fewer than four characters, use the same process in reverse: for each missing character, remove that amount of XP from your XP budget. Note that if you adjust your XP budget to account for party size, the XP awards for the encounter don’t change—you’ll always award the amount of XP listed for a group of four characters.

It’s best to use the XP increase from more characters to add more enemies or hazards, and the XP decrease from fewer characters to subtract enemies and hazards, rather than making one enemy tougher or weaker. Encounters are typically more satisfying if the number of enemy creatures is fairly close to the number of player characters.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010


Zarick posted:

Cons:
[list]
[*] Skill feats are one of the biggest ones for my group. You get a decent amount of them, and while some of them are very good (Athletics, Intimidation, Medicine), there are many skills that don't have any interesting skill feats worth writing home about (most of the magic skills are the biggest culprits). Also, some gate things that feel annoying to be behind skill feats or feel like "feat tax" just there to justify having something to use a skill feat on (like Intimidating Glare or Group Impression). Skill feats are probably overall the thing my players liked the least, even though some specific skill feats (Scare to Death, Cat Fall) they love. They definitely needed less of these with more impact.

Skills feats are such a bummer. I like the idea of skill feats but the execution is just terrible.

Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants

Roadie posted:

:yeah:

It specifically talks about this in the core book (page 489).

I definitely need to do this. It's a little annoying in some places, as where I am is a lot of little encounters in small rooms that make me feel like I can't add creatures. I think I should have been combining rooms into larger encounters in those instances instead of mashing the Elite button in Foundry.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Andrast posted:

Skills feats are such a bummer. I like the idea of skill feats but the execution is just terrible.

Agreed.
I mean, I understand why a single character shouldn't be able to become Legendary in every single skill forever, but it does suck that like Zarick said, if you're not a Rogue you basically just get to pick 3 skills to focus in, and then you're Trained at best in a few others.

You should at least be able to get a handful more Expert ranks and maybe like one or two more Master ranks without having to sacrifice a Legendary proficiency.
Hell, I'd even settle for making it a General Feat, something that lets you bump a skill up to the next rank.

It's why I like the Acrobat Dedication, since it gives you an automatic progression in Acro at least, even if I'm not wild about it from a headcanon for my character perspective.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Epi Lepi posted:

I definitely need to do this. It's a little annoying in some places, as where I am is a lot of little encounters in small rooms that make me feel like I can't add creatures. I think I should have been combining rooms into larger encounters in those instances instead of mashing the Elite button in Foundry.

Don't forget about adding hazards, which give both monsters and PCs more reason to use Shove and other reposition abilities during combat.

MadScientistWorking
Jun 23, 2010

"I was going through a time period where I was looking up weird stories involving necrophilia..."

quote:

A lot of the martial classes have pretty dull feats in terms of not having effects that aren't "attack, but better" or "attack, but more times". They have plenty of mechanically useful feats, but it still feels like the (non-4e) D&D fighter problem is intact. The wizard gets tons of agency and neat, weird things he can do, and the fighter just swings a sword really hard. At least in some cases here you have some decent mechanical effects, but I'm still disappointed by it.
Ehhh..... Martials are weirdly all over the place. They by far have more interesting effects than most spellcasters and conversely also have the most boring. Fighters tend to be the most straightforward but monks, rogues, investigators, champions, and rangers are probably more dynamic than most spellcasters.

Cyouni
Sep 30, 2014

without love it cannot be seen

Zarick posted:

I don't really want them to be thematically like a Bard, but right now they are pretty much like a Bard mechanically... just worse. Basically I just mean they should get more features than Sor/Wiz (like Bard does, since it doesn't get the 4 spells/level), and that hexes should be 1-action minor offensive effects that always work, like Bard songs (even the offensive one).

Evil Eye is definitely just flat out worse than any of the Bard songs which are also 1-action effects, the first of which every Bard gets for free: Inspire Courage, which gives +1 attack/damage and +1 to saves vs fear for every ally within 60'. (Bard gets a better version of Evil Eye as a level 8 feat, Dirge of Doom, that applies frightened 1 and the "can't reduce below 1" to every enemy within 30'.)

Bard is honestly kinda overpowered mechanically on its pure ability to shift numbers.

That said, Witch can combo in some weird ways. Using Reach Spell to toss hexes on further away targets, Cackle to maintain a hex for a free action, not actually needing to be within 30 ft to keep up hexes, etc. It's also easier to have two different effects up as a witch, since bard compositions interfere with each other, whereas hexes only stop each other for the same turn.

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream
Fighters are way way more dynamic than wizards while being the martial equivalent of them. Give a fighter a day and he's coming back with a whole new set of skills and tactics and several new weapons with unique was to gently caress you up.

And since the fundamental runes are so cheap it's easy to keep an armory of slightly weaker than your main weapon. Fighter whip rear end in PF2E.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
The "neat things the wizard can do" are pretty reliant on your opponents critical failing their saves and are limited by things like Incapacitation.

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

I think it's more of a mental image thing.
The toolbox wizards get involves shooting lightning and flames and cool visual effects.
A Fighter toolbox is just different ways of swinging a weapon.

Unless you're going Full Anime Swordsman, it isn't going to "feel" as flashy as a Wizard casting a spell that achieves similar results, and I think Monks are the closest martial class to getting to do flashy anime effects since they can literally turn Super Saiyan

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

the_steve posted:

I think it's more of a mental image thing.
The toolbox wizards get involves shooting lightning and flames and cool visual effects.
A Fighter toolbox is just different ways of swinging a weapon.

Unless you're going Full Anime Swordsman, it isn't going to "feel" as flashy as a Wizard casting a spell that achieves similar results, and I think Monks are the closest martial class to getting to do flashy anime effects since they can literally turn Super Saiyan


This is just a person's dumb brain doing that. A fighter is masterfully maneuvering the chaos of combat, doing fancy tricks and tactical strikes all why taking hits and dodging blows and fuckin up enemy movements. Wizards are just standing there point fingers going "LIGHTNING BOLT". If you're reading one class has having big theatrics but not the others for no reason that's not the game's fault.

Fighters in Pathfinder are essentially Jason Bourne-ing through fights with expert skill, Monks are going full Avatar or Goku, Rangers are becoming one with the beasts and the land, Gunslinger has a path ability that is just "3 Actions; Be John Wick for one round." They all have really neat flavorful and intensely theatrical options for the classes.

ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Feb 23, 2021

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Toshimo posted:

I mean, read the page (https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=334), but... about half the time for me. Perception/stealth check are quite often hidden. I feel, based on the feedback here, I should really do a "Basics of Roll20" post, because it's really wild to me that you guys have built this elaborate and byzantine way of interacting with the UI in the worst possible way and it's obviously miserable for you.

You’re making posts here defending roll20 as great for PF2E and then in the 5e thread you said they’re basically cutting support for Pathfinder 2e. I’m confused what’s going on at roll20, why are you advocating strongly for what you’re also saying is a dying platform for the game.

Seldon
Dec 21, 2008

Zarick posted:

[*] The Foundry integration people mentioned above is really great and saved me a ton of prep time -- I basically just imported the PDF, set up monster tokens, and then added them to maps. Sometimes I had to do little corrections but for an entire book of Age of Ashes I typically had to do 2-4 hours of prep time, which is nothing compared to what it would take to do it all myself (especially the maps, that's always a pain in the rear end).



Buying the Age of Ashes content on Fantasy Grounds was what got me in the door to using it because all of that prep work was already done, but 2-4 hours of setup for a whole book of it sound appealing to me. I think part of the problem for me is that I was only using Vanilla Foundry without any support mods (because I don't know what I'm doing with mods and I also hate Fantasy Grounds for this, every quality of life improvement is an installable extension that requires making .zip files and putting them in hidden temp folders)

Would you mind fleshing out more your Foundry setup and workflow?

Enos Cabell
Nov 3, 2004


Are there any dedicated Foundry or VTT threads? I looked back a few pages but didn't notice anything. I'd love to hear about what mods people are using for PF2E in Foundry.

My group is slowly transitioning from Roll20 to Foundry, finishing up a 4E campaign in Roll20 while doing a few PF2E one-offs in Foundry. Honestly if our guy running the 4E campaign didn't already have everything built in Roll20 we'd have switched to Foundry full time. Even without modules it seems clearly superior to me on both the player and GM side of things.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Seldon posted:

Buying the Age of Ashes content on Fantasy Grounds was what got me in the door to using it because all of that prep work was already done, but 2-4 hours of setup for a whole book of it sound appealing to me. I think part of the problem for me is that I was only using Vanilla Foundry without any support mods (because I don't know what I'm doing with mods and I also hate Fantasy Grounds for this, every quality of life improvement is an installable extension that requires making .zip files and putting them in hidden temp folders)

Would you mind fleshing out more your Foundry setup and workflow?

I can try. I'm only going to cover prep here and not like general foundry stuff and other modules for PF2E.
You install foundry, you install the PF2E world, you install the modules Compendium Image Mapper, PDF to foundry, and maybe Tokenizer, but it's a little wonky now since the main dev isn't working on it, anyway not required. Installing mods is pretty easy, but it's also pretty much required. I have about 15-20 mods for actual play. The PF2E core devs do make an effort to incorporate popular mods into core, but you'll still want some mods. They're pretty trivial to install and update though. I only tried running Foundry on my PC for a day or 2 before deciding I liked it and getting hosting on the forge, which handles all the module installation/updating for you from a pretty easy to use interface. Installing modules from the app on your PC is pretty easy though, there's a built in package manager.

You create your world, you go to manage modules and turn on the 3 modules you installed, you run pdf to foundry and select your Paizo purchased pdf, note that it will check here that it's not a pirated version. It will load in all the encounters as journal entries, it will load in all the maps as scenes. If you're running a more recent product like Abomination Vaults or Agents of Edgewatch you can also import the interactive maps PDF and it will replace the lovely quality maps from the PDF with nicer quality ones. I think for like Age of Ashes the maps might be a bit fuzzy though, but I haven't tried it. This is the part where having a license is nice, Paizo only recently accepted VTT are a thing and started putting high quality versions of the maps into the PDFs, but Roll20 was being sent high quality versions to make their conversions since they have a license.

What you have now is scenes for all of the maps, journal entries for all of the encounters and probably pins placed on the map that links to the entry for the relevant room. If they don't have this, you can open the interactive map on one screen and foundry on the other and drag and drop the journal entries into the appropriate places.

From there, you want to go through and get your monster art setup. I do this by making a quick list of all the monsters in various encounters with their full name formatted like this: "GIANT_SPIDER" and then I use tokentool. In tokentool you can open up a PDF and it will give you a choice of all the images from that page of the PDF. If you go to save options you can set it so that when you drag the token into a directory on your computer it will save both the portrait and the token simultaneously, the portrait with a suffix. I use "_01" as the suffix because of the way the compendium image mapper works. When you drag out your token you should have "GIANT_SPIDER" and "GIANT_SPIDER_01" respectively in the folder. Keep doing that until you have art for all the monsters, this is the most time consuming part by a huge margin for me(It's still maybe a minute a monster though), but technically as you do more adventures you won't have to re-tokenize the standard bestiary.

From there I separate out the portraits and tokens into separate folders using the _01 suffix to filter, then you go to your compendium and map your tokens and portraits to the appropriate bestiaries. Finally at this point you can import all your entries from the bestiaries with their art applied into actors, then drag and drop the actors into the appropriate rooms on the map and set them to be invisible. It's not really even needed to do this, as you can just drag/drop them when your players encounter them and there's not a significant difference, I do it more to remind myself of what's standing around in the dungeon hearing the players explore/get in fights.

This loot part is pretty optional, but here's how I do it:
The last thing I do is go through all the rooms with loot and create loot actors for them, and then add all the loot to them. You do this by creating a new actor, naming it whatever, I do like A12 Loot, but you can be more thematic if you want :v:, although you can do it such that the players never see that name anyway, make it the type "Loot". Then you open up that actor and you can add the treasure/coins/items. There's also a mod Forien's unidentified items that lets you mystify an item/potion so they can't see what it is. This part can also be a little annoying because there aren't separate entries for say, Longsword +1. You have to add a longsword then edit the name and the stats so it's +1. Anyway, handling loot this way allows you to have a separate loot actor that is owned by your players. As the GM you can open up the player loot actor, click on a loot actor you've set up and have it "loot" that actor. It will transfer all the items into the player's loot actor and the players can drag and drop things out of their loot actor onto their sheet directly. You can also automatically split coins and make change from the loot actor. It's nice. You can also set up stores through the same type of loot actors and it will automatically charge the players for the items they buy, but that feels like more trouble than it's worth to me.

That's all the VTT prep stuff. If someone has a better way to do the portrait/token art I'm all ears, as it's the bulk of the work. Another workflow for the art would be to look up the monster on AoN, save the portrait image, use compendium mapper to map all the portraits, and then tokenizer to quickly create tokens after you've imported them. Probably a wash, although tokenizer makes nicer tokens sometimes.

Only other thing I did for AV was drop some light sources around so I could simulate light filtering in from various angles w/o setting the whole scene to daylight but that was fast and kind of fun.

I've only tried importing AV1, Menace Under Otari, and Troubles in Otari. Now that I've tokenized the bestiaries it's pretty fast to just do art for the few adventure specific monsters and be done. The importer does import all the monster art, so if you have art for the bestiaries already you can just select the imported image as the portrait directly in foundry, and then create a token with tokenizer and avoid all the saving and image mapping, you might still want to rename them though.

Only other thing to note is if you update the base PF2E world system it will un-do all your compendium art mapping(I think there's a way to prevent this but I haven't looked into it too hard), and they update kind of frequently, though you have to manually apply the update so you can choose when it happens. This won't affect imported actors and it's why I decided to go with making my names compliant with image mapper so I can always re-map if it gets messed up.

ETA: For play I think these are things that most people will get benefit from in order of usefulness: Token Action HUD, Pings, PF2E Toolbox, Popout!, The Furnace, Torch, Perfect Vision, Pathbuilder 2e Import, Polyglot.
These are a bit fiddly but I like them for combat: Pathfinder 2e Quick Rolls, Easy Target.
A cool thing I haven't played with enough for prepping maps: Multilevel Tokens. The rest of my modules are just the free map packs in case I need a random map with lighting already set up.

M. Night Skymall fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Feb 23, 2021

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
So, yeah, finally got a minute to talk about my R20 v Foundry experience.

I rolled up to a goon PF2E game last week based on a published AP and it was my first look at Foundry (and seemed like everyone but the DM's first look as well).

Let me say first off that the client is a hog. It was definitely spinning my laptop on all cylinders. While that's not really a problem, it's a fair far from the lightweight experience I get from R20, which I've had players run on a full collection of old hardware and crap connections without issue. I'd be very wary of making players aware that if they have an older machine, it'll probably chug hard.

So, we get in and the immediate first thing I notice is that the DM has dynamic lighting/vision of some kind enabled and it proceeds to be crap for the entire session, just like every dynamic lighting/vision implementation I've ever experienced, including R20s. I'd rather just play with FoW and have all that junk turned off instead of having my screen turn into an Escher painting the instant I walk inside a room.

So, we go through some beginning bits and the sheets are mostly usable, but several of the players seemed to have trouble locating bits that I know I took the time to manually add to my sheet, so there's still a lot of work to be done there. To be fair, R20 doesn't have the things I added anyway, but the point, again, is that this isn't an improvement, as far as my experience went.

We got into a combat and the big standout glaring issue is that the turn tracker is mutually exclusive with other bits of info instead of a popout like R20. This was a big UI downgrade and I don't see why it was done this way.

We tried desperately to get targeting and automatic rolls going and by the end of the session, nobody had figured it out, so if I wanted to cast a spell on something, I could hit the button, but then I'd also need to roll damage separately and the DM would have to pull up sheets to roll the saves because even though I had things targeted, it wouldn't roll the target's save if I clicked it, or apply damage. This, as I recall, was something FantasyGrounds was particularly good about and it was all but implied by the UI that you could do these things, but most of the clickable stuff just didn't do what it said on the tin. Even stuff like healing party members, I couldn't just press heal and then have it apply to the target, the target player would need to do that themselves, which was just v0v.

Movement was absolute crap, and none of us could figure out how to do a multi-part move, only straight lines. While this, and other things in this post may be DOABLE, the fact that the UI and tooltips give zero feedback on any of this, and typical practices from other VTTs resulted in nothing. It's been trivial to onboard players to R20 because the actual doing of things is pretty simple and the UI generally "just works" and while Foundry may have a bunch of new toys, it's almost as unintuitive as FG, and that's a tough road to hoe. Hell, we had problems from the start of character creation because unintutively, a whole lot of stuff was drag and drop with no tooltips or feedback and we were trying basically every other way to get stuff out of the compendium because it just did not occur to us to do things "just the way the devs intended". We also had problems with unit collision that slowed everything down.

A lot of this stuff is minor and solvable, but it does lead us to the biggest point: It sucks rear end not to have actual servers. Our DM is running a couple of games and flips his Foundry between them as needed, so I haven't had any opportunity to actually just go in and muck about because the game's not guaranteed to be up and I don't have the ability to just spawn a test game for myself, like I do in R20. Foundry isn't "free" after purchase and anyone spouting that is misleading at best; the cost of having a permanent server is, at minimum, on par with the price of an R20 sub, and the idea of having a permanent server on my home machine is laughable from a security standpoint. Having all my players in all my R20 campaigns be able to go in and fiddle at any point with their characters, or just fire up a game and mess around with the UI for free is a HUGE bonus.

Like, if you like Foundry or R20 or god-forbid FG (TTS folks get out), live your best life, I'm just saying that my first outing was incredibly disappointing and I felt like I had less functionality with more overhead than I'm accustomed to getting out of R20, for a product that is harder to get my players acclimated to.

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

That sucks, I'm gonna say your DM is definitely holding it wrong. My friends and I are all pretty tech savvy which probably plays a large role in why we like Foundry so much. I think a big issue for me with Roll20 is that if it doesn't do what I want I often feel like there's no solution, that's just how it is and there's nothing I can do to fix it. Whereas with Foundry there're a ton of options to customize and fix the various problems. But obviously that isn't every group or DM. But this, this part sucks and it's not intuitive at all:

Toshimo posted:

We got into a combat and the big standout glaring issue is that the turn tracker is mutually exclusive with other bits of info instead of a popout like R20. This was a big UI downgrade and I don't see why it was done this way.
You can right click the fist on the tabs on the right side, and it will pop out the turn tracker so you can look at chat. I tried it with all my modules turned off just to make sure that it's a built-in thing. It's super unintuitive and dumb as hell but uh, it can be done.

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

M. Night Skymall posted:

Drag and drop journal entries onto the map to place a gm note pin there, double clicking the note will bring up the journal entry so you can read it when the players enter that room. This seems trivial, but it's really nice.

You do this in R20 by just making a new character and putting all your notes in the bio and dragging that character to the GM layer. I've done it for box text and stuff a bunch. Just because it's called a "character" doesn't make it not have all the bits a journal entry does.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank
Foundry has serious discoverability issues and poor UX in a lot of places but a number of the things you want are at least possible:
  • The dynamic lighting can be extremely good and atmospheric -- my group adores it, their favorite feature about running this online instead of in person -- but requires care when setting up the walls and understanding how e.g. terrain walls vs regular walls work. It's definitely not free as a GM. Add too much detail and you definitely get an Escher print.
  • Planning a movement path is done by holding down ctrl and clicking to create a path. Then you press space to activate. Laying down walls in the mapmaking mode uses the same approach so it's at least consistent within the app.
  • All the side panels can be popped out as separate windows, as mentioned.
  • Targeting is ... a thing. There is a targeting mode, where clicking targets things instead of selecting them. This being modal is weird, and there are modules (EasyTarget) that change this to something less bad. Targeting will give you target-specific results for your attack rolls and let the GM and other people see what you're trying to do, which is nice, but targeting will not trigger saves and damage is not rolled automatically.
    The intended workflow for abilities that require a DC is -- I think -- that you click the spell icon in your spellbook (or drag it to a hotbar and click that) which puts a message with the spell + roll buttons in the chat. The targeted persons click the roll save button, the caster clicks the damage or crit damage buttons depending on result.

The split between token, default prototype token, and actor is also unintuitive, and you'll probably run into some "wait, huh?" situation there at some point. Especially with dynamic lighting on. I wrote a torch toggle and added it to everyone's hotbars which has helped a lot.

I'm definitely not saying that you should have known these things going in or discovered them easily. They're not intuitive and not hinted at in any way that I know. Foundry requires that you learn a few arcane incantations to get anywhere, plus the host needs to find, evaluate and install additional modules to make it friendlier. I like it well enough now but it took a while to get there.

I had individual roll/enter a character + learn the UI sessions with my players where I forced them to make a complete and pristine character sheet each before we started the current campaign, after an initial single-map, single-session adventure with premades. After that the worst part for my players has definitely been figuring out the movement, which doesn't enforce the rules in any way and is hard to plan, especially if the maps are bad or I gently caress up wall placement. The worst part for me is definitely not loving up wall and light source placements to ensure that the lighting and pathing do not crap out. I've gotten better, but it's still a lot like work.

Targeting is I think OK when you figure out how the system is supposed to work: I actually like tying dice rolls to explicit UI interactions, at least when running a dice animation module (Dice So Nice in our case). It helps recreate some of the in-person excitement of each roll. That there aren't any other options but to like that sucks, of course.

I guess tl;dr: Foundry can be very good and very pretty. The PF2E module + sheet are complete and well maintained and the entire system very flexible compared to what I've seen of Roll20 -- which is not a lot -- but none of it is user friendly. You really need someone in the group to spend time picking helper modules and figure out the UI arcana, and that is basically gaming time spent not playing games which is a big ask.

Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Feb 24, 2021

M. Night Skymall
Mar 22, 2012

Toshimo posted:

You do this in R20 by just making a new character and putting all your notes in the bio and dragging that character to the GM layer. I've done it for box text and stuff a bunch. Just because it's called a "character" doesn't make it not have all the bits a journal entry does.

Yeah, I'll be honest I just didn't know what I was missing until I saw all the pins auto-populate in a PDF I imported. I hate the way the GM layer is implemented in roll20 though, having to swap back and forth to change visibility is always a hassle. I should probably have just memorized the keyboard shortcuts but never did. Otoh, Foundry doesn't have a gm layer just a toggle on the token for visibility, which is great when you just want to make tokens appear/disappear quickly, or pop open a sheet for something that's invisible, but awful when you have the players walk over a bunch of invisible tokens and you have to solve a tower of hanabi puzzle to move the right token around.

Another thing with Foundry that's a curse/blessing is that all the important parts are open source volunteer efforts, this is neat because you can hop onto their discord and just ask the devs "how the hell am I supposed to do this?" and they will no-life answer you almost immediately, much like I do here :v:. But since they're volunteers most of the focus is going to be on making things they feel are useful to them in the manner they find most pleasing. There's some voting on priority features etc. but it is what it is. I absolutely recommend anyone who wants to use foundry hop on their discord and into the PF2E channel and just ask them stuff.

I'll give an example of one of my favorite features, but also wtf why is it this way: If you want to apply something like bless to your character when someone casts bless, you can go into the compendium under spell effects and drag it out onto your character sheet, and then delete it off when you lose the bless. Alternatively, if you drag the effect down onto your macro bar it creates a macro that will toggle the bless effect on your token. The only reason I know that macro toggle thing exists is because I remember the devs bragging about making it work in discord, but how the hell would you know otherwise.

They definitely expect you to interact with it in a specific way, and it's not really obvious. I'm pretty sure the devs don't actually build characters in foundry, they build characters on pathbuilder2e and that's the source of truth for the character, and if anything important changes they just re-import, probably just doing inventory management in foundry. On the plus side the devs are very enthusiastic and involved, like the merge for all the lost omens ancestry guide stuff is being pushed now so it should be available pretty much as soon as the book officially releases tomorrow.

Fake edit: The way my players handle movement is by using the ruler to measure where they want to go, and then with the ruler still out and holding down the left mouse button, using "WASD" to move their selected token, you can hit the appropriate keys simultaneously to move diagonally. I'm not going to pretend that's super great, but it's a method.

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Fighters are way way more dynamic than wizards while being the martial equivalent of them. Give a fighter a day and he's coming back with a whole new set of skills and tactics and several new weapons with unique was to gently caress you up.

And since the fundamental runes are so cheap it's easy to keep an armory of slightly weaker than your main weapon. Fighter whip rear end in PF2E.

It's very odd that the way in which you picked fighters being better than wizards is the thing wizard is explicitly good at? A wizard can change literally his entire toolset, top to bottom, every day (assuming his pockets and/or spellbook are deep enough).

Fighters get one flexible feat at 9th level, another at 14th, and another at 20th if you take a feat (and 20th level feats are valuable).

There's five general "feat chains" fighters have: weapon and shield, weapon and open hand, two-handed weapon, two weapon, and ranged weapon. Most of these don't play nice together. Fighters don't get Quick Draw.

I really like the idea of the flexible fighter, and I don't think that the wizard is better because of flavor. Some of the martials do have good and flavorful options (I think monk, swashbuckler, and barbarian are probably the best in this regard).

I looked through the fighter feats in the PHB from 20 down to find one that does something that isn't giving extra attacks, slightly more effective attacks, or defense bonuses. It takes getting down to level 14, so no feats in the top three tiers of feat that don't just basically add more attacks. At least monks can turn ethereal and do a death fist attack, and barbarians can cause earthquakes or turn into a dragon.

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Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

M. Night Skymall posted:

Another thing with Foundry that's a curse/blessing is that all the important parts are open source volunteer efforts, this is neat because you can hop onto their discord and just ask the devs "how the hell am I supposed to do this?" and they will no-life answer you almost immediately, much like I do here :v:

No lie, this is one of my biggest concerns. Foundry is the newest shiniest thing, but if they are so heavily leaning on community labor, what happens when the next new shiny thing comes out? How many modules lose support when their devs wander off to their new bauble?

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