Pathfinder RPG: sqrt(13)th Edition

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RagnarokAngel: Oct 5, 2006; Black Magic Extraordinaire

Swags posted:

This is a 3.5 question. I'm posting it here because this is the closest thing to a 3.5 thread.

I'm going to make a Dragonfire Adept (from Dragon Magic) for an ongoing campaign in case my current character dies. I'd like to do it with Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds), and add the Saint template (also from BoED).

Now, I'd like to take Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace, which state you can't hurt anyone ever if they're alive (undead and constructs don't count). If they try to attack you, they have to make a Fort save or their weapon just shatters, and they also have to make a Will save or be affected by Calm Emotions (and thus, unable to attack).

Problem with this is that Saint has a special ability. Whenever an evil creature hits you with a natural attack, they take 1d6 damage from holy bleedoff.

My question is whether or not this would qualify as breaking my Vow of Nonviolence/Peace since I didn't intentionally wound them.

Another question is if there are any Exalted feats anywhere besides the BoED and the Player's Guide to Faerun, because I can't find any and the options are lacking, really. Especially with a bonus feat every other level for Vow of Poverty.

No. NO. Do NOT use vow of peace for the love of God. Unless your entire party is willing to go pacifist youre going to be a huge toolbox by forcing a will save on your allies to keep on fighting. If you use this youre being selfish.

# ? Mar 21, 2010 19:41

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 04:44

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT

Piell posted:

Five foot steps still exists, so nobody ever makes a concentration check anyway. They nerfed save or DIE effects, but almost all of the save or lose spells like Sleep, Stinking Cloud, and the others are all unaffected and just as powerful as ever. The school restriction rules actually made wizards stronger, since they can actually cast spells from banned schools by using 2 slots. A number of the specialization abilities (Divination's Forewarned especially) are quite powerful.

All large monsters (and nearly everything past 13th level is large) have 10 foot reach. Thats right, a horse will ruin your spell casting powers. School spec changes are better, I'll admit that; they aren't overpowered though, just useful. And you better drat get good divination powers because the school isn't terribly good for anything other than locating, scouting, or the occasional illusion.

Piell posted:

They changed feats, but not always for the better - Power attack is arguably weaker, and Cleave sucks now. Weapon specialization groups don't really matter - it's rare that you are required to use a different weapon for too long unless you DM is an rear end in a top hat. The armor bonuses are nice but not that great: at 20th level they are -4 ACP and +4 max dex bonus, but it is unlikely you are going to get much worth out of the dex increase, so basically you just get less ACP. Medium armor is basically worthless, so the move increase isn't too helpful there, though the moving in heavy armor is decent. Still, these are only incremental improvements - minor bonuses that don't come close to bringing up a fighter to the level of a caster.

Power attack may not deal as much pure damage as it did, but it is far more cost efficient: at BAB 4 have -2 to hit and +6 damage with a two handed weapon. Cleave got nerfed, it's true. As for weapon spec groups, my warrior always had multiple weapons for different situations (+1 ghost touch, adamantine etc), so it's great to get through damage types with different weapons including bash/pierce/slash. Medium armor is FAR from worthless for those early 6 levels as heavy armor is expensive; the game includes low levels too. Late game, you need at least a +3 dex bonus to be a sword/board fighter if you intend on using stand still to defend teammates and full plate has a +1, that means an additional +2 to your AC and CMB/CMD. And the movement in heavy armor is absolutely crucial. How are you going to fight if you can't reach the battle?

Piell posted:

Casters get an additional skill to pick, since they don't have to take concentration. They combined the skills in a stupid fashion - spot/listen/hide/move silently/tumble were already some of the best skills in the game, and combining them just made them far BETTER than pretty much anything else. Meanwhile worthless skills like appraise are still around. Fighters still only have 2 skill points.

Wizards getting tons of skill points is built into the game mechanics. They have 10 different knowledges that are all class skills. If something happens, the wizard better know what it is and what to do about it. Yes, appraise, swim, and, to a lesser degree, climb are pretty crappy; no argument. But they added fly as a skill, so that makes up for it. WTF do fighters need more than 2 skill points for? All they need is acrobatics and a little ride.

Zarick posted:

I just love this part, because most of the stuff you're saying Pathfinder "fixed" was actually fixed better in 4e, and all the skills are actually useful in 4e. It's laughable to say that stat modifiers overriding skill ranks in 4e didn't happen in 3.5e as well, and especially laughable in the specific example you mentioned because the wizard could just take Craft if he wanted; thanks to skill points being Intelligence based he could have a giant pile and no real need for them.

Again, the wizard skill points are built into the mechanics so he can work on his 10 separate knowledges. I didn't notice they removed the maximum skill placement of 3 ranks per level. Even so, if the 4e wizard takes craft at 15, he is pretty much the greatest craftsman ever. In PF, at least it takes several levels to build up.

Zarick posted:

As far as disrupting spells by standing adjacent... how do you stand next to the flying invisible wizard raining spells on you from the air?

A bucket of paint and a net: congratulations, you have just been hosed by kobolds. I did that once with my goblin rogue to PK the wizard who was being an rear end. gently caress that wizard.

Also, you need to be level 11 to cast greater invisibility. At that point, there are plenty of monsters who are immune to illusions including undead, stronger deamons/devils, constructs, elementals, not to mention the ones who have blind sight (or tremor sense if indoors/underground). Don't forget breath weapons and AOE attacks don't have to be exact.

All the wizard ridiculousness assumes you have the advantage. Because they have so few hps and are easily disrupted, they may be completely hosed in the surprise round. Save or lose spells aren't very useful when you never get to cast them. Yes, there are great scouting spells and sacrificial summons, but an intelligent opponent won't reveal himself until the real units show up.

Basically, the wizards are overpowered if your DM is a retard who just shoves encounters in front of you without any thought or strategy.

# ? Mar 21, 2010 22:29

Danhenge: Dec 16, 2005

Cpt_Obvious posted:

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT

All large monsters (and nearly everything past 13th level is large) have 10 foot reach. Thats right, a horse will ruin your spell casting powers. School spec changes are better, I'll admit that; they aren't overpowered though, just useful. And you better drat get good divination powers because the school isn't terribly good for anything other than locating, scouting, or the occasional illusion.

Unless they changed reach in pathfinder somebody's been running horses wrong.

quote:

Also, you need to be level 11 to cast greater invisibility. At that point, there are plenty of monsters who are immune to illusions including undead, stronger deamons/devils, constructs, elementals, not to mention the ones who have blind sight (or tremor sense if indoors/underground). Don't forget breath weapons and AOE attacks don't have to be exact.

They're immune to mind effecting spells, not illusions.

# ? Mar 21, 2010 22:31

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Cpt_Obvious posted:

All large monsters (and nearly everything past 13th level is large) have 10 foot reach. Thats right, a horse will ruin your spell casting powers. School spec changes are better, I'll admit that; they aren't overpowered though, just useful. And you better drat get good divination powers because the school isn't terribly good for anything other than locating, scouting, or the occasional illusion.

Horses don't have reach. Plus a good wizard never lets a enemy get close to him, through fly, invisibility, summons, noncasters as speedbumps, etc. If you are going to bring up "but what if he loses initative", a level 20 diviner is never going to lose initiative.

quote:

Power attack may not deal as much pure damage as it did, but it is far more cost efficient: at BAB 4 have -2 to hit and +6 damage with a two handed weapon. Cleave got nerfed, it's true. As for weapon spec groups, my warrior always had multiple weapons for different situations (+1 ghost touch, adamantine etc), so it's great to get through damage types with different weapons including bash/pierce/slash. Medium armor is FAR from worthless for those early 6 levels as heavy armor is expensive; the game includes low levels too. Late game, you need at least a +3 dex bonus to be a sword/board fighter if you intend on using stand still to defend teammates and full plate has a +1, that means an additional +2 to your AC and CMB/CMD. And the movement in heavy armor is absolutely crucial. How are you going to fight if you can't reach the battle?

Multiple weapons are fine, but there isn't any reason you can't have multiples of the same weapon. In fact, getting different weapons is a good way to gently caress yourself over - Weapon-specific feats like improved critical don't transfer to weapon groups, so being a general is worse in every way than specializing in a weapon. As to the point about dex bonuses, each point of Dexterity you have is a point you could have in Strength or Constitution or something. There are builds that can use the increased max dex bonus, but for most it isn't going to matter. I forgot that pathfinder made medium armor better, so I will concede that it isn't worthless. On the heavy armor front, if you want speed, you get someone to cast Haste on you.

quote:

Wizards getting tons of skill points is built into the game mechanics. They have 10 different knowledges that are all class skills. If something happens, the wizard better know what it is and what to do about it. Yes, appraise, swim, and, to a lesser degree, climb are pretty crappy; no argument. But they added fly as a skill, so that makes up for it.

But you claimed that class skills didn't matter? Thus wizards get even better than in 3.5.

quote:

WTF do fighters need more than 2 skill points for? All they need is acrobatics and a little ride.

They need more than 2 skill points if they want to do something other than "stand around and hit people in combat." Wizards have a vast number of skills that allow them to be useful out of combat, as do some noncasters, and this doesn't even get into all the poo poo spells let you do out of combat. But fighters can't do anything out of combat since they have no useful skills or class abilities, and they aren't as good in combat either.

quote:

Again, the wizard skill points are built into the mechanics so he can work on his 10 separate knowledges. I didn't notice they removed the maximum skill placement of 3 ranks per level. Even so, if the 4e wizard takes craft at 15, he is pretty much the greatest craftsman ever. In PF, at least it takes several levels to build up.

4E doesn't have a craft skill because almost no one gives a poo poo about crafting. Mundane crafting in 3.5 and Pathfinder is incredibly terrible. Even if you added a Craft skill to 4E, it makes sense - he is a great crafter because he is a badass hero.

quote:

A bucket of paint and a net: congratulations, you have just been hosed by kobolds. I did that once with my goblin rogue to PK the wizard who was being an rear end. gently caress that wizard.

So the goblin magically knew where the wizard was and was able to both get close and hit him? Sounds like DM fiat.

quote:

Also, you need to be level 11 to cast greater invisibility. At that point, there are plenty of monsters who are immune to illusions including undead, stronger deamons/devils, constructs, elementals, not to mention the ones who have blind sight (or tremor sense if indoors/underground). Don't forget breath weapons and AOE attacks don't have to be exact.

There is no such thing as "immune to illusions", and if there were, it would apply to illusions cast on them. Invisible creatures can't be seen without something like see invisibility or blind sight, undead and constructs and such cannot see them unless they have one of those abilities.

quote:

All the wizard ridiculousness assumes you have the advantage. Because they have so few hps and are easily disrupted, they may be completely hosed in the surprise round. Save or lose spells aren't very useful when you never get to cast them. Yes, there are great scouting spells and sacrificial summons, but an intelligent opponent won't reveal himself until the real units show up.

Basically, the wizards are overpowered if your DM is a retard who just shoves encounters in front of you without any thought or strategy.

This is funny, because not only do diviners get massive initiative boosts, they always get to act in the surprise round. Woops, your point is worthless! Also I like how your monsters can automatically tell the difference between a real foe and a scout or summon. And how they manage to perfectly conceal themselves until the wizard gets close, and get to him easily, and kill him in one round. This assume the wizard is not: A) a diviner, who is always going to go first, B)not good at perception, and no one in the party is good at perception either, and C)doesn't have any defensive spells up.

# ? Mar 21, 2010 23:01

RagnarokAngel: Oct 5, 2006; Black Magic Extraordinaire

How is "well if you design the encounter specifically around loving up the wizard" good game design anyway? Anything you do to the wizard can be done to the fighter at 10 times the impact. Fighter you can just strong arm to death but wizard you have to think "smart"? That doesnt strike you as a balance issue?

# ? Mar 21, 2010 23:19

ZeeToo: Feb 20, 2008; I'm a kitty!

Swags posted:

This is a 3.5 question. I'm posting it here because this is the closest thing to a 3.5 thread.

I'm going to make a Dragonfire Adept (from Dragon Magic) for an ongoing campaign in case my current character dies. I'd like to do it with Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds), and add the Saint template (also from BoED).

Now, I'd like to take Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace, which state you can't hurt anyone ever if they're alive (undead and constructs don't count). If they try to attack you, they have to make a Fort save or their weapon just shatters, and they also have to make a Will save or be affected by Calm Emotions (and thus, unable to attack).

Problem with this is that Saint has a special ability. Whenever an evil creature hits you with a natural attack, they take 1d6 damage from holy bleedoff.

My question is whether or not this would qualify as breaking my Vow of Nonviolence/Peace since I didn't intentionally wound them.

Another question is if there are any Exalted feats anywhere besides the BoED and the Player's Guide to Faerun, because I can't find any and the options are lacking, really. Especially with a bonus feat every other level for Vow of Poverty.

The correct answer is that even if you enjoy 3.5 (I'm one such person), you deserve to be beaten with a sack of doorknobs for trying to play BoED. There's a reason Exalted feats aren't touched on again.

Basically, it doesn't work very well, it's poorly implemented, and it takes a lot of houseruling to let it work at all. Just make a Paladin or Cleric, really, if you want to play a holier-than-thou type. Also look for the Justicar prestige class; it's based around not killing your opponents while not dicking over combat entirely. I think that's in Complete Divine, although I could be mistaken.

(If I were the DM, I'd probably say that that breaks the vow, though. You're out there causing harm, and if I recall BoED gives stiff penalties for even accidentally breaking your vows or doing something while mind-controlled. This is also a reason it sucks.)

# ? Mar 22, 2010 00:18

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

RagnarokAngel posted:

How is "well if you design the encounter specifically around loving up the wizard" good game design anyway?

If anybody is going to have experience and extensive in-game knowledge of how to wreck a wizard's day, it should be a random pack of kobolds.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 03:19

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Piell posted:

Horses don't have reach. Plus a good wizard never lets a enemy get close to him, through fly, invisibility, summons, noncasters as speedbumps, etc. If you are going to bring up "but what if he loses initative", a level 20 diviner is never going to lose initiative.

My bad, i misread most for all for the reach. It's not only a matter of going first, it's a matter of being able to assure your own safety in one round because you are so fragile. Summons and other characters are going to be ignored by an intelligent opponent. Even non-DnD games, kill the glass-cannon is a universal rule of thumb for video-games.

Piell posted:

Multiple weapons are fine, but there isn't any reason you can't have multiples of the same weapon. In fact, getting different weapons is a good way to gently caress yourself over - Weapon-specific feats like improved critical don't transfer to weapon groups, so being a general is worse in every way than specializing in a weapon.

The crit tree works for all weapons but it does require that you have one weapon focus. I will concede that the weapon groups are inferior to weapon specs but they come for free, improve over time, and stack with those feats.

Piell posted:

As to the point about dex bonuses, each point of Dexterity you have is a point you could have in Strength or Constitution or something. There are builds that can use the increased max dex bonus, but for most it isn't going to matter. I forgot that pathfinder made medium armor better, so I will concede that it isn't worthless. On the heavy armor front, if you want speed, you get someone to cast Haste on you.

Again, dual weapons and defensive shield warriors need solid dex bonuses to be effective. Dual weapons will have a minimum 19 dex to get greater two weapon fighting and shield warriors need bonus dex for stand still. Besides, at higher levels shield warriors are going to have a ridiculous AC and, unlike hp, AC gets exponentially better with every single point. So, dex reduces physical damage AND aoe damage through reflex saves.

Piell posted:

But you claimed that class skills didn't matter? Thus wizards get even better than in 3.5.

I said class skills don't give you a penalty, essentially get 3 free ranks, so if someone should know something it should be the guy that gets massive bonuses to know-stuff skills. Most of the DC's are 15-20, so you need a good amount of ranks to be reliable. Arcana is even higher.

Piell posted:

They need more than 2 skill points if they want to do something other than "stand around and hit people in combat." Wizards have a vast number of skills that allow them to be useful out of combat, as do some noncasters, and this doesn't even get into all the poo poo spells let you do out of combat. But fighters can't do anything out of combat since they have no useful skills or class abilities, and they aren't as good in combat either.

If you want to do something REALLY nifty with him, give him a ton of handle animal, get the animal affinity feat, and rear a wild animal at a difficulty of 15+HD. Mounted combat becomes a lot more interesting when you have an ankylosaurus as a mount for a measly 25 Handle animal check. Yeah, other classes can do it too, but fighters have the feats to spend on mounted combat (which requires high ride, a dex modifier!).

Piell posted:

4E doesn't have a craft skill because almost no one gives a poo poo about crafting. Mundane crafting in 3.5 and Pathfinder is incredibly terrible. Even if you added a Craft skill to 4E, it makes sense - he is a great crafter because he is a badass hero.

Craft was an example, and just because you are a badass hero doesn't mean you should master a skill you just learned yesterday better than someone who has practiced it for years.

Piell posted:

So the goblin magically knew where the wizard was and was able to both get close and hit him? Sounds like DM fiat.

You want the story? Ok, short version. 3.5. We fight a black dragon in a swamp, the wizard gets dropped into negatives in the middle of battle, the fighter stands over him to grant concealment, and I bring him back with a wand(or scroll?) of cure mod. He nukes the dragon down. Then he wants all the loot because he "did all the work", casts invisibility and moves away. So, I follow his foot steps and horizontally splash brackish swamp muck into the square they end in. He is covered in black crap, then the fighter quick draws a net.

Piell posted:

There is no such thing as "immune to illusions", and if there were, it would apply to illusions cast on them. Invisible creatures can't be seen without something like see invisibility or blind sight, undead and constructs and such cannot see them unless they have one of those abilities.

My bad, was thinking immunity to mind effecting. Either way greater invisibility lasts for 1 round per lvl.

Piell posted:

This is funny, because not only do diviners get massive initiative boosts, they always get to act in the surprise round. Woops, your point is worthless! Also I like how your monsters can automatically tell the difference between a real foe and a scout or summon. And how they manage to perfectly conceal themselves until the wizard gets close, and get to him easily, and kill him in one round. This assume the wizard is not: A) a diviner, who is always going to go first, B)not good at perception, and no one in the party is good at perception either, and C)doesn't have any defensive spells up.

I'm not saying most monsters will be able to tell which is the real foe, I'm saying the intelligent ones who know you are coming because you rest for 8 hours every five minutes to restore your spell slots, which you are going to have to do if you dump 2-3 protective spells on yourself per battle.

I think you're right, diviners are busted. As for the perception rolls, most of the time you are going to be fine, but every once in a while you will be completely hosed and may have a party wipe. Protection spells like invisibility and fly are 1 round/lvl; you need them cast in advance.

RagnarokAngel posted:

How is "well if you design the encounter specifically around loving up the wizard" good game design anyway? Anything you do to the wizard can be done to the fighter at 10 times the impact. Fighter you can just strong arm to death but wizard you have to think "smart"? That doesnt strike you as a balance issue?

You aren't specifically trying to screw the wizard. In the game I'm playing in we've had two merchant escort missions, multiple guerrilla skirmishes with kobolds (goddamn hidey holes! :argh:

), and an awesome chase scene. Anything that isn't just your standard boring encounter is going to gently caress unprepared casters.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 06:04

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Anything that isn't just your standard boring encounter is going to gently caress unprepared casters.

Which, except in the most beginner of groups at low levels, simply don't exist.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 06:40

RagnarokAngel: Oct 5, 2006; Black Magic Extraordinaire

Unprepared casters? Really? I mean at low levels yeah dispatching a wizard is pretty easy with their d4 hit die and 2 spells a day but after a certain point they just arent going to run out of spells man (Hint this is around level 5)

# ? Mar 22, 2010 07:11

Zarick: Dec 28, 2004

Note that all of these problems become infinitely worse when you remember about things like wands and scrolls which only wizards and some rogues can really use effectively.

Also druids and clerics which are even better than wizards and sorcerers because they have the same awesome destructive power, better hit dice and saves, better armor, healing spells, and insane special abilities (wild shape or domains/divine feats)

Zarick fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Mar 22, 2010

# ? Mar 22, 2010 07:29

Chernori: Jan 3, 2010

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Then he wants all the loot because he "did all the work", casts invisibility and moves away. So, I follow his foot steps and horizontally splash brackish swamp muck into the square they end in. He is covered in black crap, then the fighter quick draws a net.

Just to make sure I understand, you're arguing that wizards are balanced versus other classes, because he was able to be taken down by two player characters in an environment that completely favoured them?

# ? Mar 22, 2010 09:07

Swags: Dec 9, 2006

Chernori posted:

Just to make sure I understand, you're arguing that wizards are balanced versus other classes, because he was able to be taken down by two player characters in an environment that completely favoured them?

Just to make sure I understand, you're arguing that wizards aren't balanced because they win when the conditions and environment completely favor them?

I agree. 3.5 casters are more powerful than non-casters (druids in particular are ridiculous), but you're making it sound like every non-caster is just a dope with a sword and that's just not true. Because they're underpowered doesn't make them retards who stumble around and smack trees with sticks. Any fight typically comes down to initiative and tactics. If wizards are so much better than fighters by 20th level, then a 20th level fighter should know that and have his poo poo ready in case he encounters a wizard. It's not hard to have a periapt of proof vs. death, or a ring with immunity to mind affecting spells, or 10 ranks of UMD and a scroll of anti-magic shell and a non-magical way to fly, just like it's not hard for a wizard to have Finger of Death or Dominate Monster or Fly ready to cast.

The argument people typically make for this is that 'wizards only lose if fighters specifically prepare for them.' On that same note, though, wizards only win if they've prepared their poo poo correctly, and if the other guy isn't smart enough (after 20 levels, which is what these fights always come down to: 20TH LEVEL DIVINER!!).

Yes, fighters are underpowered. Feats are loving nothing compared to the ability to cast Mindrape or Horrid Wilting. But that doesn't mean fighters are useless morons. Just like any wizard, built well, they perform well (well... adequately). Built badly, they perform badly.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 15:41

Danhenge: Dec 16, 2005

Please describe to me a non-magical way to fly.

edit: becuase my point is without this vaunted non-magical way to fly the Wizard just floats around with Overland Flight on until the Scroll of Anti-Magic Shell runs out and then he casts the spells on the Fighter.

Danhenge fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Mar 22, 2010

# ? Mar 22, 2010 15:51

mixitwithblop: Feb 4, 2009; by elpintogrande

Danhenge posted:

Please describe to me a non-magical way to fly.

non magical flying mount

# ? Mar 22, 2010 15:57

NorgLyle: Sep 20, 2002; Do you think I posted to this forum because I value your companionship?

Swags posted:

10 ranks of UMD and a scroll of anti-magic shell

Fighters do, in fact, get much better at surviving if you devote a large amount of their character resources into being as much like a Wizard or Cleric as possible.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 15:57

Angry Diplomat: Nov 7, 2009; Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Swags posted:

The argument people typically make for this is that 'wizards only lose if fighters specifically prepare for them.' On that same note, though, wizards only win if they've prepared their poo poo correctly, and if the other guy isn't smart enough (after 20 levels, which is what these fights always come down to: 20TH LEVEL DIVINER!!).

the argument is that an equal amount of preparation, cleverness, and resources available to both classes will always result in the wizard winning no matter what unless he is in some terrible stupid gimmick situation like being sent to the elemental plane of beholders or some poo poo. the way to challenge a fighter is to throw a monster at him. the way to challenge a wizard is to rearrange everything to stack the deck against him, and even then he can just cast mordenkainen's shuffling on the deck

mixitwithblop posted:

non magical flying mount

oh man that mount better have freakin' balling will and fortitude saves because otherwise that wizard is going to laugh and laugh at all the falling damage the fighter is about to take

# ? Mar 22, 2010 16:04

Swags: Dec 9, 2006

Danhenge posted:

Please describe to me a non-magical way to fly.

A griffon? Pegasus? Any number of other flyin animals. Fighters do have Handle Animal and Ride. Hell, take Leadership and get a dragon.

Having played 3/3.5 since its inception, I just don't get the love for anything that can cast a spell. I've never even seen anyone play a wizard the way everyone says they can be played. I've been in countless games, including one epic level game, and never played with a wizard that just flew around the battle field 1 foot within range of his longest range spell casting it repeatedly while invisible. While it could have happened, it never really did.

Angry Diplomat posted:

oh man that mount better have freakin' balling will and fortitude saves because otherwise that wizard is going to laugh and laugh at all the falling damage the fighter is about to take

Yep. Gonna walk Herman the 2 HD pegasus right up to Matinorous the Mottled, King of All He Surveys just hoping for the best.

Swags fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Mar 22, 2010

# ? Mar 22, 2010 16:10

Danhenge: Dec 16, 2005

Oh wait, a 20th level wizard? He casts Gate and chuckles as a monster summoned by a Conjuration(Calling) (as opposed to summon) destroys you for him. Say, a Titan, who sunders the Fighter's weapons and then proceeds to pound you into a puddle of slime.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 16:14

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Swags posted:

Having played 3/3.5 since its inception, I just don't get the love for anything that can cast a spell. I've never even seen anyone play a wizard the way everyone says they can be played. I've been in countless games, including one epic level game, and never played with a wizard that just flew around the battle field 1 foot within range of his longest range spell casting it repeatedly while invisible. While it could have happened, it never really did.

This is just one of the many ways a spell-caster can upstage the rest of the party. They're even better at it outside of fighting.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 16:16

Danhenge: Dec 16, 2005

Plus the only scenario which you have described that actually works is the anti-magic shell one because if the Wizard feels at all threatened in rounds 1, maybe round 2, he gets out of the Fighter's reach, in round 2 or 3 he disjunctions you, and then you're dead in the following rounds.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 16:19

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Swags posted:

I agree. 3.5 casters are more powerful than non-casters (druids in particular are ridiculous), but you're making it sound like every non-caster is just a dope with a sword and that's just not true. Because they're underpowered doesn't make them retards who stumble around and smack trees with sticks. Any fight typically comes down to initiative and tactics. If wizards are so much better than fighters by 20th level, then a 20th level fighter should know that and have his poo poo ready in case he encounters a wizard. It's not hard to have a periapt of proof vs. death, or a ring with immunity to mind affecting spells, or 10 ranks of UMD and a scroll of anti-magic shell and a non-magical way to fly, just like it's not hard for a wizard to have Finger of Death or Dominate Monster or Fly ready to cast.

Round 1: Wizard teleports away.
Round 2: Wizard waits until the spell duration runs out.
He then summons/gates demons/devils who have teleport. He keeps summoning until the fighter is dead.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 18:47

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

I came into this thread to see what was crackin' with Pathfinder, only to see some chump is actually trying to defend Wizards.

Dear chump,

Wizards are mechanically broken in 3e and any of it's derivations. That's all there is to it and you basically look like an idiot trying to deny this. Any moderate level or higher Wizard player can gently caress up a game incredibly badly, and with a minimal amount of effort. This isn't up for debate anymore, people have had years to see this happen. If you're the special snowflake who has managed to dodge these issues: good for you. Now shut up.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 19:50

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Also laffo at "10 ranks of UMD and a scroll of anti-magic shell", you need to hit a 31 UMD check to use that scroll. Hope your fighter has 30 charisma to have a 50/50 shot of making that check, buddy.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 20:08

Danhenge: Dec 16, 2005

Piell posted:

Also laffo at "10 ranks of UMD and a scroll of anti-magic shell", you need to hit a 31 UMD check to use that scroll. Hope your fighter has 30 charisma to have a 50/50 shot of making that check, buddy.

It's a 26 I think but yeah

# ? Mar 22, 2010 20:10

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Nah it's DC 31 (11th caster level for Antimagic Field + 20 base DC for a scroll). Also an Amulet of Mind Blank (which gives +8 to saves against mind affecting spells) would cost 240,000 gp. An Amulet of Deathward, which gives +4 to saves against death spells, would cost 56,000. Also apparently Swags gets all his D&D information from Baldur's Gate, neither of those items he mentioned are in Pathfinder at all.

Edit: Also this requires the fighter to be completely focused against fighting casters in Swag's cases. If he ever has to fight anything else, he is hosed! Meanwhile casters can fight anything without much trouble.

Piell fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Mar 22, 2010

# ? Mar 22, 2010 20:14

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Piell posted:

Nah it's DC 31 (11th caster level for Antimagic Field + 20 base DC for a scroll).

Yeah, the requirement for casting from scrolls is caster level, not spell level. You'd need 31 on your check to emulate int 16 anyway though, unless that has been changed for pathfinder.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 20:33

Anonymous Zebra: Oct 21, 2005; Blending in like it ain't no thang

I like playing 3.5, and I'll admit that the fighter and rogue are two classes that are not built for higher level play. Eventually a caster will be able to do (or can summon something that does) everything either of those classes can do. I've hosed with the "calling" spells (summon planar ally, bind outsider, etc.) a bit so that they are no longer standard spells on a spell list but are rituals that take a lot of time and sacrifice to cast...but that's neither here nor there.

Fighters and rogues shine in the low levels when the other classes can't do the same things they can. But eventually casters will gain the power to replace most of those abilities. I think the same argument can be made for barbarians, but I've had players use barbarians for 20 levels and still do crazy poo poo like supplexing dragons and poo poo, so I can't speak from experience about that class doing poorly at higher levels.

I have to say, without a hint of doubt, that the warblade from Book of Nine Swords basically represents what a D&D fighter should be. It can full attack and hit like a fighter, and has saves like a fighter, but it also has tumble as a class skill (Jesus Christ, this might seem small but it's really cool), and also gains martial powers that can: hit for fuckloads of damage, cause status effects or insta-death on enemies, allow them to ignore will saves, lets them dispel negative status effects, and the list goes on....The martial powers also scale like a caster's spells, so they are gaining new abilities at the same rate as their magic slinging buddies.

Seriously, if you want to play a longterm game past level 10 then replace fighters with warblades.

Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 22, 2010

# ? Mar 22, 2010 20:36

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Anonymous Zebra posted:

I like playing 3.5, and I'll admit that the fighter and rogue are two classes that are not built for higher level play. Eventually a caster will be able to do (or can summon something that does) everything either of those classes can do. I've hosed with the "calling" spells (summon planar ally, bind outsider, etc.) a bit so that they are no longer standard spells on a spell list but are rituals that take a lot of time and sacrifice to cast...but that's neither here nor there.

Fighters and rogues shine in the low levels when the other classes can't do the same things they can. But eventually casters will gain the power to replace most of those abilities. I think the same argument can be made for barbarians, but I've had players use barbarians for 20 levels and still do crazy poo poo like supplexing dragons and poo poo, so I can't speak from experience about that class doing poorly at higher levels.

I have to say, without a hint of doubt, that the warblade from Book of Nine Swords basically represents what a D&D fighter should be. It can full attack and hit like a fighter, and has saves like a fighter, but it also has tumble as a class skill (Jesus Christ, this might seem small but it's really cool), and also gains martial powers that can: hit for fuckloads of damage, cause status effects or insta-death on enemies, allow them to ignore will saves, lets them dispel negative status effects, and the list goes on....The martial powers also scale like a caster's spells, so they are gaining new abilities at the same rate as their magic slinging buddies.

Seriously, if you want to play a longterm game past level 10 then replace fighters with warblades.

Warblades own. Not only do they manage to stay closer to casters in power, they let you do lots more interesting things than just full attack over and over, plus they get a better skill list (diplomacy, tumble, a couple knowledges), and with 4 skill points a level and Int as a secondary ability, it's possible to get a few useful skills!

# ? Mar 22, 2010 21:00

Baku: Aug 20, 2005; by Fluffdaddy

Anonymous Zebra posted:

I like playing 3.5, and I'll admit that the fighter and rogue are two classes that are not built for higher level play. Eventually a caster will be able to do (or can summon something that does) everything either of those classes can do. I've hosed with the "calling" spells (summon planar ally, bind outsider, etc.) a bit so that they are no longer standard spells on a spell list but are rituals that take a lot of time and sacrifice to cast...but that's neither here nor there.

Fighters and rogues shine in the low levels when the other classes can't do the same things they can. But eventually casters will gain the power to replace most of those abilities. I think the same argument can be made for barbarians, but I've had players use barbarians for 20 levels and still do crazy poo poo like supplexing dragons and poo poo, so I can't speak from experience about that class doing poorly at higher levels.

I'll respectfully disagree regarding the Rogue. If your DM is cool he'll houserule uncrittable out entirely or at least make it not apply to Sneak Attack, and even if he's uncool he'd have to be a huge rear end in a top hat to send a party with a Rogue through the Closet of One Thousand Skeletons more than once in his career. When SA applies, a Rogue making a full attack action deals a goddamn huge amount of damage and is probably on par with those crazy Barbarian Frenzied Berserker builds or goofy charge multiplier gimmicks for greatest damage output in the game. Rogues are also the only base class that receive 8 skillpoints per level, they have the best class skill list in the game, and they get a host of useful defensive abilities (Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind). And they get UMD as a class skill and have good cause to raise Charisma to take full advantage of it (their skillpoints and skill list make them great party faces/leaders).

Make no mistake, they don't compare with any full casting progression class core or PRC, but I think they hold up way better than most of the other magically-challenged base classes do including the "half-casters" like Paladins. Skills (particularly UMD) are like a really poor man's substitute for the versatility of magic, and Rogues are the best at using them. And most of their aforementioned combat special features (Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack, etc) are better than any feat a Fighter can take with his bonuses.

# ? Mar 22, 2010 22:02

mixitwithblop: Feb 4, 2009; by elpintogrande

RPG Superstar Winner...

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/tags/rPGSuperstar

Matt Goodall with Cult of the Ebon Destroyers

quote:

Now is the time to bring down the Ebon Destroyers!

Too long have the secretive Vudran cultists known as the Ebon Destroyers gone unpunished for their crimes of murder and assassination. Too long has the Isle of Jalmeray suffered from their deadly machinations. The Thakur of Jalmeray has outlawed the cult, and received in response an ultimatum stating that if he doesn�t revoke his edict, he and his family will die before the month is out. The PCs must locate the Ebon Destroyers� hidden temple headquarters, battle the cult leaders, and save the Thakur himself!

Cult of the Ebon Destroyers is an adventure for 8th-level chararacters, written for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and compatible with the 3.5 edition of the world's oldest RPG. Inside you'll find intrigue and espionage in the slums and palaces of the city of Niswan and a perilous trek through the dense jungle and rugged hills of southern Jalmeray to the depths of a diabolical shrine.

# ? Mar 24, 2010 20:05

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

That sounds like a decent yet pretty uninspired adventure.

# ? Mar 24, 2010 21:08

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Chernori posted:

Just to make sure I understand, you're arguing that wizards are balanced versus other classes, because he was able to be taken down by two player characters in an environment that completely favoured them?

At this point i've come to accept that magic classes are more powerful than others, but that isn't what I meant by this statement. I meant that those two characters could be CR 1/3 kobolds, in this situation it was just us ganking the prick wizard. Either way, I guess it's true, the casters are just overpowered.

# ? Mar 24, 2010 22:31

Ulta: Oct 3, 2006; Snail on my head ready to go.

Lets put it this way. The multiclassed wizard/cleric in my 9th level Pathfinder game is pulling his own weight, and at time outdamaging me, a 9th level Paladin. Did I mention that the DM isn't letting anyone cast 3rd level spells or higher? He's still doing good.

# ? Mar 24, 2010 22:37

Anonymous Zebra: Oct 21, 2005; Blending in like it ain't no thang

PeterWeller posted:

That sounds like a decent yet pretty uninspired adventure.

If you read the proposal you can see that it's really deeply steeped in the cool Indian-styled flavor of the area it takes place in. I honestly gave it second place since I liked "Doom of the Dream Theives" more, but Matt made a pretty cool proposal so he deserves the win.

# ? Mar 25, 2010 00:49

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Okay. That makes it sound worthy of the win.

# ? Mar 25, 2010 00:53

Baku: Aug 20, 2005; by Fluffdaddy

Ulta posted:

Lets put it this way. The multiclassed wizard/cleric in my 9th level Pathfinder game is pulling his own weight, and at time outdamaging me, a 9th level Paladin. Did I mention that the DM isn't letting anyone cast 3rd level spells or higher? He's still doing good.

Honestly casters are overpowered as hell but this is still worthless out of context of your individual builds and stats (do you guys roll or do pointbuy/arrays?) because classes like the Paladin and Monk that are MAD are really easy to gently caress up and make terrible.

# ? Mar 25, 2010 01:23

Ulta: Oct 3, 2006; Snail on my head ready to go.

Zombies' Downfall posted:

Honestly casters are overpowered as hell but this is still worthless out of context of your individual builds and stats (do you guys roll or do pointbuy/arrays?) because classes like the Paladin and Monk that are MAD are really easy to gently caress up and make terrible.

This is true. We did 25 point buy. I assume the wizard/cleric is somewhat optimized (and it would be worse if he wasn't). He definitely has the feats that allow him to have a caster level of 10 when he casts those level 2 spells.

My paladin isn't a special snowflake, so I put stats in str and cha, and focused on feats that increased my combat ability (power attack, that one that lets you double your weapon damage, weapon focus, etc)

We've got reasonable gear for our level.

It seems to work out fine

# ? Mar 25, 2010 11:52

Etherwind: Apr 22, 2008; Can't post for 85 days!; Soiled Meat

So someone asked me about Pathfinder's Summoner ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/summoner and http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner ) for the ~3.5 game I'm going to be running.

My acid test for custom classes is to compare them to the Wizard class and the Warlock class, to see where between the two they fall, with my instinct being to favour classes that tend toward the Warlock end of the scale. To me, this looks as good as a Wizard (especially given the tremendous number of utility and buff spells), and definitely way better than a Warlock.

My first impression and instinct is that this is overpowered. What do you guys think?

# ? Mar 28, 2010 13:01

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# ? Apr 20, 2024 04:44

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

Etherwind posted:

So someone asked me about Pathfinder's Summoner ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/summoner and http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner ) for the ~3.5 game I'm going to be running.

My acid test for custom classes is to compare them to the Wizard class and the Warlock class, to see where between the two they fall, with my instinct being to favour classes that tend toward the Warlock end of the scale. To me, this looks as good as a Wizard (especially given the tremendous number of utility and buff spells), and definitely way better than a Warlock.

My first impression and instinct is that this is overpowered. What do you guys think?

Well, let's look at it. It gets the summon monster spells at the same rate a wizard would, and gets Gate as well, so that special ability is basically equal to a fighter of his level. The eidelon is also about equal to a fighter of his level. Merge Form is pretty sweet as well. Overall, I'd say it is probably too powerful.

Edit: Looking over the list of evolutions possible, some are pretty hilarious and I would say the Eidelon is way more powerful than a fighter. For example, it is possible to get 26 attacks with martial weapons a round. You can then take multiweapon fighting and improved multiweapon fighting, and all your attacks are only at -2! Get improved critical and use a 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapon for extra fun.

Piell fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Mar 28, 2010

# ? Mar 28, 2010 15:44

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