Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

This is a Dornier Do-17 fast bomber AKA "The Flying Pencil"

It was designed in the 1930s as a 'freight aircraft' (because the Germans weren't allowed to build bombers :ssh:

) and was used for the first couple of years of WW2 as a front-line bomber before being withdrawn from the Luftwaffe in late 1941 and replaced by more modern designs. Some were used as glider tugs by the Germans, others were handed out to other Axis-aligned air forces who used them for a number of years before scrapping them. The last active Do017 was decommissioned by the Finnish Air Force in 1952, and there are none in private hands. So, essentially, no examples of this aircraft existed as all anywhere in the world.

...

Until now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12997528
See, one was shot down in the summer of 1940 and made an emergency splash-down landing off the coast of Kent. Two of the crew died, two survived (and became POWs) and the plane itself flipped over and sank to the bottom where it landed in the middle of the Goodwin Sands sandbanks. Which then buried the wreck in sand, preserving it to a certain extent.

The sands have shifted again recently, uncovering it and subsequently someone found it. So the Port of London Authority sent out a sonar boat last week to see how much of the wreck was left intact after all this time. The answer?

So now the RAF Museum want to raise it and are hoping to put in on display as the only surviving Do 17.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2011 15:05

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# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 04:15

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

HeyEng posted:

That gets brought up constantly in CRM classes.

Here's a corker of a crew gently caress-up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways_Flight_548

Captain is an arrogant middle-aged man on the verge of a heart attack who's just been in a stand-up row with a colleague, co-pilot is young, wet behind the ears and totally lacking in confidence. End result: Plane drops out of sky in a deep stall and ploughs into a field next to a main road because the captain dicked with the leading edge droops and turned off the stall recovery system and nobody stopped him.

Itzena fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Jun 13, 2012

# ¿ Jun 12, 2012 19:58

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

InitialDave posted:

Camel, Spitfire, Wellington, Lancaster, Lightning, Harrier, Tornado, Vulcan, TSR/2.

Not that there's a trend in my thinking.

You missed the Victor out.

Any plane that looks like it should actually be in a sci-fi film automatically counts. :v:

Also the accidental take-off a couple of years ago was funny:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCyNJ3-8fKY

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 20:42

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

I always found it amusing that the RAF had the Spitfire, which was this bleeding edge metal monocoque with stressed wings and all that...and then the Hurricane (essentially started out as a Hawker Fury biplane with the top wing sliced off) and the Mosquito (made out of balsa and plywood).

# ¿ Jan 8, 2013 22:00

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

VikingSkull posted:

ABC now reporting the data reporting system and transponder were shut off in sequence and not simultaneously.

Okay, seriously: What the gently caress is going on? :psyduck:

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 00:34

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Slo-Tek posted:

The French did that, twice. The LeDuc Ramjets. Two different successfully flying test articles with a frog in the pointy bit.

http://www.aer.ita.br/~bmattos/mundo/other/leduc.htm

Cockpits doubling as shock cones? Sure, why not:

The Miles M.52: the British attempt to break the sound barrier, cancelled in early 1946. Shortly after that, copies of all the paperwork & blueprints were handed to Bell Labs.

The X-1 broke the sound barrier about a year and a half later.

Itzena fucked around with this message at 00:16 on May 3, 2014

# ¿ May 3, 2014 00:14

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Lobster God posted:

Heard some noise earlier, stuck my head out the door and the Vulcan flew past, escorted by both flying Lancasters. Pretty cool.

Pics and vid here: http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/airworthy-Lancaster-bombers-fly-Lincoln-Vulcan/story-22797384-detail/story.html

The weirdest thing about this is that the first flight of the Vulcan was barely more than a decade after the first flight of the Lancaster.

No, really (1952 vs 1941).

# ¿ Aug 24, 2014 23:13

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

CroatianAlzheimers posted:

The Hustler is sexy and all, but the Valkyrie was the most beautiful thing to ever fly.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2015 20:28

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Party Plane Jones posted:

The most relevant incident is United 173 where the crew of a DC-8 literally ran out of fuel while the captain was absolutely obsessed at fixing a landing indicator light. He worked the problem until they crashed because the co-pilot and flight engineer (they still had engineers in those days, natch) were too scared to question him.

Something similar happened with BEA 548 - the 50yo captain gets into a shouting match with a fellow employee about striking before flying and may have been in the early stages of a heart attack. Takes off from Heathrow in a Trident with a greenhorn co-pilot and relatively experienced but mid-twenties engineer. The captain retracts the leading edge drops way too soon, ignores the stall warning, ignores the stick shaker, ignores the stick pusher and gets the Trident into deep stall too low and too slow to do anything about it so it ploughs into the side of a reservoir next to a main road.

Nobody dared correct the captain, though.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2015 00:16

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Platystemon posted:

For overseas travel, seaplanes dominated pre‐WWII and fell out of favour quite quickly afterwards.

The explanation I've heard is that the later heavy bombers of WW2 needed long paved runways and then when the war ended there were all these airports basically lying around waiting for someone to make use of them so people started building planes to take advantage. And once that happened, flying boats became irrelevant.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2015 17:10

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

reddeathdrinker posted:

So I saw some things at a place at the weekend. And something I've never seen before...

(snip)

Whole album: http://imgur.com/a/T8zLx

Early helicopters are so derpy.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2015 19:02

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Spaced God posted:

Cutest H-34 I've ever seen

Close! It's a Westland Whirlwind, which is a UK-built H-19 but with a RR Gnome(/GE T58) turbine crowbarred into the nose instead of the radial from the Sikorsky.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 01:33

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

I went to a local ex-RAF base today:

Old enemies:

Short Sunderland flying boat:

Supermarine Southampton flying boat (without biplane wing)

A pair of Avros, a decade apart:

No foreshortening tricks here with the Canberra in back, the Vampire is that tiny. If it's even 10' tall I'd be very surprised

Aw look, it thinks it's a real fighter:

Early jets:

Victor cockpit + nose art:

A Halifax that came back...eventually:

Full album here: http://imgur.com/a/cpro7

Itzena fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Sep 23, 2015

# ¿ Sep 23, 2015 17:54

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Hang on, I think I took one of the exhibit plate thingy....

And: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/73-A-1113-Halifax-II-W1048.pdf

So shot down by the Tirpitz, pilot belly-landed her on the ice of Lake Hoklingen in Norway and then she sank through the ice after everyone got out.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2015 20:26

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

MrChips posted:

The second Eurofighter prototype, DA2.

lordmaf posted:

Hanging from ceiling EuroFighter Typhoon,
Sitting on floor Percival Provost which amusingly enough got developed in to the Jet Provost which was still in service in the 90's, which begs the question, any other planes starting as a prop plane ending up as jet?

Beaten, Shouldnt have added the extra text

Yeah, it was this chap:

# ¿ Sep 23, 2015 23:10

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Cat Mattress posted:

The Super Hornet. Probably a consequence of trying to pretend it's a normal Hornet, just Super, instead of using a new aerodynamic formula.

Speaking of Super Hornets: http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/mattis-names-super-hornet-possible-alternative-f-35

quote:

Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis has ordered separate reviews of both Lockheed Martin�s F-35 and Boeing�s Air Force One replacement in an effort to significantly reduce the cost of both programs, and in a blow to Lockheed has named Boeing�s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet as a possible alternative to the U.S. Navy�s F-35C

# ¿ Jan 28, 2017 19:54

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

ehnus posted:

Huh. The B-52B entered service in 1955 and there was one variant released per year until the H in 1961. Somehow I thought the H came around a lot later than that.

That's a pretty quick pace for improvements.

Avro was pretty good on the "wait, what?" speed-of-improvement list, too:

Lancaster prototype first flight: 1941
Vulcan prototype first flight: 1952

# ¿ Jul 15, 2017 13:38

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

slidebite posted:

The Victor is pretty much what I would have drawn as an 8 year old if asked to draw "warplane"

It looks like something Dan Dare, Pilot of the Future should be flying to attack The Mekon.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2017 18:13

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Sagebrush posted:

That reminds me, for some reason, that I've always wanted to fly on an Il-62:

Unfortunately I think the only place you can still fly on one is North Korea

Well, it outlasted its British counterpart:

# ¿ Oct 22, 2017 11:51

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-42024712

quote:

An aircraft and a helicopter have crashed in mid-air over Buckinghamshire, with a number of casualties reported. Emergency services were called to the site at Waddesdon Hill, near Waddesdon Manor, near Aylesbury, at 12:06 GMT. The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) has sent a team to investigate.

A Wycombe Air Park spokesman said both aircraft came from the airfield near High Wycombe. The AAIB said the plane involved was a Cessna. South Central Ambulance Service said it received a call for a "mid-air collision" between a helicopter and an aircraft in Upper Winchendon, near Aylesbury. It said: "There have been a number of casualties at the scene, but at this stage this is all we are able to confirm."

Well that's not gone well. Wonder which of them was showing off, or if it was both of them?

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 20:46

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Speaking of British airliners, 40 years ago today/yesterday (depending on what timezone you're in) a certain plane starting flying the Heathrow-JFK route commercially.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7mt6AKKhq4

# ¿ Nov 23, 2017 01:22

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I wanna photoshop this so they're making a run in the Death Star trench.

Right genre, but wrong film:

# ¿ Nov 24, 2017 16:01

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Jonny Nox posted:

I forgot how bad the fighters in that movie were.

And now you know that they butchered a Lightning for every one of those props, too.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2017 21:50

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

I'm sure I've seen an Axeman Jim post on the Brabazon before, but I can't find it ITT. But yeah, all of the Brabazon committee should have been sent to the :thermidor:

# ¿ Jun 23, 2018 18:39

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Don't worry, they did.

https://twitter.com/HannahFlowerday/status/1016720895887527936

# ¿ Jul 10, 2018 20:08

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

https://twitter.com/RAFBrizeNorton/status/1016734060704608257

# ¿ Jul 11, 2018 09:59

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Nebakenezzer posted:

So, when the X-1 was built, did America have a supersonic wind tunnel, or were they all ".50 cal bullets are stable at supersonic speeds, let's wing this mother"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_M.52

"Faced with limited amounts of existing relevant information from available sources upon which to base the aircraft's design, Miles turned to the field of ballistics instead. He had reasoned that, as it was widely known that bullets could attain supersonic speeds, aerodynamic properties that would enable an aircraft to be capable of becoming supersonic would likely to be present amongst such shapes. In particular, as a result of studying this design data, the emerging aircraft would feature both a conical nose and very thin elliptical wings complete with sharp leading edges."

Why am I talking about a British jet? Well, this started being designed in 1943. In '44 the British Govt signed an agreement with the US to share designs for supersonic jet development so Miles made copies of everything they had and sent it over to Bell Labs. In return, Bell Labs went "Thanks, suckers!" and sent nothing back. And then, when the plane looked like it was going to be ready to break the sound barrier in 1946 (with an actual jet engine, not a rocket), the British Government mysteriously decided to cancel the whole thing.

Lend-Lease was a hell of a thing.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2018 20:45

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Going back to #kc1388 over Portugal:

Ola posted:

Here's the landing, after 2 go-arounds.

https://www.facebook.com/diariodoalentejo/videos/2205785863025836/?refid=52&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&__tn__=R-R

Definitely reduced directional control still, the wind was almost straight down the runway. Perhaps no ailerons and did everything on differential power and rudder?

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=217634

quote:

Immediately after take-off, with adverse meteorological conditions, the crew felt that the aircraft was not responding adequately to the commands, developing oscillatory wing movements.
The crew, using all the aircraft control resources for its 3 axis, immediately tried to counter the movements, however without understanding the cause for the flight instability and without being able to engage the autopilot.
Realising that they were without effective control of the aircraft, only being able � with considerable effort � to minimize the oscillatory movements, with high structural loads involved during some recovery manoeuvres and using crossed commands.
The crew immediately declared emergency while trying to diagnose the cause for the abnormal roll of the aircraft, continuing to struggle to gain its control, having no malfunction indication from the aircraft systems, just the continuous alerts for abnormal flight attitudes.
The flight requested to return to Alverca. About 13:37 UTC the flight requested to climb to FL100, again stating they had "flight control problems".
The situation did not improve, and the performed trajectories caused the aircraft and the persons on board to sustain intense G-forces, and causing the aircraft complete loss of control for some moments at multiple instances.
Considering the situation criticality, the crew requested several times for headings in order to be able to reach the sea for ditching, not being able, however, to keep the intended headings.

The crew then started a team work basis, discussing options with the third crewmember (co-pilot in the jump-seat) and trying to communicate with the technicians on board, to explore hypothesis and define an action plan. Despite no warnings for system failures, the crew decided to activate the flight controls direct mode elevators, rudder and spoilers), where the flight control module (FCM) is removed from the flight surfaces command chain, which are then controlled in a direct relationship with the pilots� inputs on the yoke. The situation improved considerably, however, without restoring normal operation and keeping the difficulties to control the aircraft roll-axis.

The crew realised that the ailerons were behaving erratically and therefore any command for the aircraft roll was kept to its minimum.

Having gained some control of the situation, the crew flew East, searching for better weather conditions and started to follow the flight plan defined by the air traffic control for an emergency landing in a suitable airport, with good weather and physical conditions to deal with the sustaining aircraft control difficulties.
At this moment, when the pilots were able to keep altitude and heading, and had sufficient visual references, the aircraft was joined by a pair of F-16 fighters from the Portuguese Air Force that were scrambled from the Monte Real Air Base. They assisted in guiding to Beja Air Base, which had been selected in the meantime as the best emergency landing option. After two non-stabilised approaches, the aircraft managed to land safely on runway 19L at the third approach. The intended runway was 19R, but due to drift, they finally managed to land on the left runway.
All on board were physically and emotionally shaken, one of the passengers sustaining a leg injury.

Still pending confirmation from the undertaking of additional testing, the evidence that the investigators were able collect, suggests the existence of failures in the aircraft roll controls configuration, consistent with possible disturbance during maintenance actions.

Some maintenance team is going to get extra-fired.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2018 18:26

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Deptfordx posted:

Same with the Vulcan. That classic 50's delta design make's it look like a period fighter to the brain. I was struck by how big it actually was when I saw one at the Hendon museum.

Plane indeed big.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2019 12:23

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

I learnt something new about AI's favourite spyplane today: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29787/the-sr-71-blackbirds-predecessor-created-plasma-stealth-by-burning-cesium-laced-fuel

quote:

The exhaust pipes were sixty inches in diameter, so they returned large amounts of energy at all frequencies of interest and over large angles to the rear,� Lovick, who also worked on the SR-71 and the F-117 Nighthawk stealth combat aircraft, wrote in his own book, Radar Man: A Personal History of Stealth. �We knew that the only way to prevent such echoes was, in effect, to close the apertures.�

Lockheed initially experimented with various metallic mesh screens, but quickly abandoned those efforts, according to Lovick. He says that Dr. Richard Bissell, the CIA�s Special Assistant for Planning and Coordination, who was managing the program, was so worried about this particular issue, he had considered calling for the scrapping of the entire development of a U-2 successor. That�s where the cesium additive, which eventually became known as A-50, came in an idea that Lovick claims saved the A-12 program.

The basic principle behind this is a concept known as �plasma stealth.� In the simplest terms, this involves creating a cloud of plasma, or ionized gas, around some or all of an object. The plasma then absorbs electromagnetic radiation, such as radar waves, preventing them from reflecting back. There are multiple ways to generate the required plasma Lovick�s idea was to inject an alkali metal, via a fuel additive, into the extremely hot exhaust streams, where the heat would turn it into an ionized gas.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2019 14:53

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

Pakistan International Airlines A320 just crashed into houses on landing approach after reporting mechanical issues: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52766904

This one's going to be bad.

# ¿ May 22, 2020 14:01

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv13eeRh2-c

Reminds me of that video of the Antonov taking off at that Aussie airport.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2020 18:02

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# ¿ Apr 20, 2024 04:15

Itzena: Aug 2, 2006; Nothing will improve the way things currently are.; Slime TrainerS

https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/1742134356305395734?s=20

:stonk:

# ¿ Jan 2, 2024 13:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances