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BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Powercube posted:

That's assuming USFK and ROK forces haven't noticed the 1950's style mobilization tactics DPRK uses- found out it was for real this time, and waltzed in with tacit air dominance to take them out on the ground.

Remember, the AN-2 and LI-2 are still part of the PKAF. They are fighting 1958's war.

Don't forget the Il-28, a plane that could conceivably become a high-tier end-cap in the Soviet tech tree in War Thunder, and was last considered mildly menacing when the USSR based a good handful of them in Cuba during the Missile Crisis.

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BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

A Handed Missus posted:

I thought the whole point of the B-17 was to fit as many 50 cals as possible on a plane, but it looks pretty smooth if you remove the guns and add an extra engine


Or you can be like the Russians, look at the B-17, and say "is better with jet engine!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-14 (not a spot-on airframe copy, but close enough that there was obviously some influence)

slidebite posted:

The only thing more pathetic than Westjet butchering of French are Canadians that just can't let the loving arrow go already.

The Canadians really dodged a bullet, seeing as the Arrow was supposed to use the late 50s/early 60s-era Sparrow II as its main missile armament. The Bomarcs seriously would've had more of a success rate given the operational history of them during the Vietnam War, where pilots frequently would launch *two* of the loving things against a single target because they were horrendously prone to just dropping from the recessed rails without an engine ignition.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Aug 7, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

LostCosmonaut posted:

I still hold that the Backfire with AAMs is the best solution for the Canadian interceptor / Arctic sovereignty role.

In that case, just sell the Canadians the B-1R. Four F-22 engines, supercruise, something like 20+ AMRAAMs, basically a SAM site in the sky.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Aug 7, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

drzrma posted:

Seconding this, story was boring as all hell but the carrier bits were neat to watch. There's also a bunch of WW2 and early cold war stuff that's been declassified and stuck on youtube relatively recently, I'll dig for links if I have time later but it wasn't hard to find just searching youtube. Along with the carrier and airplane related stuff there's some neat training films and such, like avoiding flak in your bomber, how to operate light and medium tanks, and effectively use machine guns in an offensive role.

Fun Fact: during one of the 'dogfight' scenes with Zeros in this film, one of the pilots nearly smacked his plane into the water after stalling too close to the ground. They left it in. And these were the days with the Pratt and Whitney engines. The Tomcat didn't come into its own until it got the F110.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3XNEWtJF0o (happens around the 2:45 mark - he stalls, goes inverted nose down, and *barely* pulls out of it once he's regained energy)

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Aug 8, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Beach Bum posted:

Christ, that'd be a hell of a thing to have to ditch a bird on a photo op.

Like this classic photo?



CharlesM posted:

A stunt pilot actually died during the filming of Top Gun. Didn't recover from the flat spin, wreckage never found, cause unknown. :/

Yeah, Art Scholl.

Another fun (and potentially untrue) fact about Top Gun that I only heard because my father was a Navy helo pilot - during the water rescue scene, Cruise was loving around in the drink and actually got himself into a dangerous situation for a minute or two, which spoiled a take because the rescue swimmer actually had to do his actual job. I also remember there being a decent story behind why it was a Coast Guard chopper that picked the both of them up out of the water and not a Navy helo, but I can't remember enough details.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Aug 8, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

vessbot posted:

Is there any truth to that, though? Sounds to me like there was an effective scary movie shot, and someone got too eager to hear an exciting story about it being real and started an urban myth that way.

From IMDB's trivia page to The Final Countdown:

The script called for the Japanese pilot to try to force the F-14 into the water. The pilot who basically did a hammerhead and pulled out real close to the water was Richard "Fox" Farrell (VF-84 XO), now retired. He did kick up quite a bit of seawater and was really pushing the envelope with the Tomcat. WWII ace-in-a-day Archie Donahue was one of the Zero pilots. The Zeroes (converted AT-6 Texans) were flying with the throttle to the stops and the F-14s were flying at stall speed (note wings fully extended in most scenes). That was so they could get both aircraft in the same shot at the same time (remember, no CGI stuff back then!).

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

iyaayas01 posted:

The best part is that even after getting told this, people were still bitching about the restaurants being temporarily shut down.

Being in Sigonella, Sicily from 1991 to 1993, the only brand-name ~fast food~ we had access to was a pitiful excuse for a Wendy's on the airfield part of the base. It was shut down twice during the time I was there, and once because the base CO bit into his burger and found still-living maggots in the meat. People still lined up after it was reopened.

Never trust fast food in a place that has lax food preparation and service guidelines, even if it's sitting on "American soil." And to my knowledge, the Wendy's there has now been replaced by a Burger King, which is a bit like replacing 'awful' with 'unconscionable.'

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 10, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

pkells posted:

I saw the greatest vanity plate ever today. I'm half tempted to move to VA just to get it:



(Stock image, didn't take a pic)

I kept forgetting to link the thread to this - Virginia has two decent aviation-themed license plates, and this one's arguably better than the Blackbird:



There's also a NASA Langley plate, but it's really boring.

AzureSkys posted:

Something I think business jet sized was just departing KBFI and just as they powered up and began rolling there were 3 deep booms that echoed all over the area. Was that a compressor stall or surge? They immediately powered down and pulled off the runway.

What kind of inspection happens after that? I don't see anything on flightaware to check what flight it was.

When my family was coming *back* from Sicily, we remembered our memorable 'CAT-B' (this is when the military subcontracts to second-rate/never-heard-of-'em 'airlines' to transport personnel and dependents to foreign-located bases) experience and flew home TWA instead. It was a 747-200, and as it spooled up for takeoff, the right inboard engine suffered a compressor stall - a *very loud* one. I was convinced we'd blown an engine, but the plane veered onto the next taxiway exit, made a quick loop back onto the runway and took off sans incident. It helped that there wasn't a long line at Fumicino that day.

Certainly was a tense-rear end flight over the Atlantic for the skittish folks, though.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Aug 11, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

AlexanderCA posted:

Why do the C5 passenger seats face towards the rear of the aircraft?

Because to my recollection (it's been a while since I've caught a flight on one), only a few seats have windows.

Side note: This is not fun to climb, and it's even less fun climbing down.



There is an upper exit door, but few bases have a moving staircase high enough to reach it. I felt really bad for people humping actual gear (some loadmasters let you drop it in the cabin in a corner somewhere, others are Nazis about 'unsecured items') - I just had a portfolio and overnight bag.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Aug 13, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

CharlesM posted:

I've got a question about that. How old are the pilots?

"The three pilots in the cockpit had a combined 10,000 hours of flying time in the C-5, and were backed by two flight engineers with a combined 12,000 hours in the air. All of the crew members were offered the opportunity to speak to reporters and all declined, according to Dover Air Force Base spokeswoman Lt. Col. Cheryl Law."

The article didn't give their ages. But you don't accrue ~3,333 on-type flying hours as a newbie.

While we're talking about massive Air Force fuckups, might as well mention the B-1 that landed at Diego Garcia gear up because "long flight" and "landing checklists are hard, mkay?"



This picture's actually better, since it kinda looks like the BONE's got one of those old-timey 'head bandage' sling-looking things after having a tooth pulled (or use a 'duct tape' meme):

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Aug 13, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

vulturesrow posted:

I can sort of get why someone could land gear up in a single piloted aircraft, though it's still pretty hard to wrap my mind around but there is no excuse in a multi-crewed airframe.

A friend of my father's landed gear-up in a C-2 once. Those are basically flying delivery trucks. They promoted her, moved her to P-3s (I guess so she could have the chance to crash something more expensive), and she retired a rank higher than my father.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

A Handed Missus posted:

“Credibility is DOWN, kill ratio is UP!”

In Bye-Bye Baby, the very same pilot asks a group of nuggets what's wrong with a picture of the planform of an F-15C with a crosshair planted dead-center on the fuselage. When no one spoke up, he answered for them...

"THE PIPPER'S NOT ON THE GODDAMN CANOPY!"

Fun Fact: "Hoser" Satrapa lost his thumb while he was still on active duty due to a shooting accident. Rather than let that take him off flight status, he had a loving *toe* removed and attached to the point of severance, which he's kept to this day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aILfg1KRcg

Another choice quote from him (from the same aforementioned book):

Many active pilots and RIOs well remember Hoser's delivery of manic harangues to fuzzy-cheeked newcomers from the RAG. In his patented Yosemite Sam voice he would whip the lads, and invariably himself, into a lethal frenzy: "Pull on the pole till the rivets pop and the RIO pukes! No kill like a guns kill! A Lima up the tailpipe is too good for any Gomer! Close with the miserable Commie [deleted] and put a few rounds of twenty-twenty-mike-mike through his canopy! If he hits the silk, gun his rear end while he swings!"

Definitions:
Lima - shorter term for an AIM-9L all-aspect missile (predates the 'Mike' model).
Gomer - a relatively *nice* term used for VC/NVA personnel in Vietnam
RAG - Replacement Air Group, a dumping ground for new pilots/backseaters where veterans decide if they belong or not. The new term is Fleet Replacement Squadron, but people still call it 'the RAG.'

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Aug 21, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Sagebrush posted:

Because even though you're firing a hundred 20mm high-explosive shells a second, it just might not be enough to take the plane down, so make sure to aim for the driver. that guy is just all about getting poo poo done

More poo poo I hadn't heard (along with some poo poo I have): http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/92...Chronicles.html

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Sagebrush posted:

The Osprey is Marine-only too, isn't it? Or at least the vast majority of its flight time gets logged by the USMC?

There's also been talk of an anti-submarine variant for the Navy, but it's just been *talk*. Honestly I think they should just unmothball the S-3s.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

They still fly around here at Mugu last I checked.

I think they still serve as target-draggers.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Sanguine posted:

Do iiiittt, I managed to sneak an hour or so before flying out of Dulles and was worried about cutting it fine heading in. In retrospect I would gladly have missed my flight to see it. A Concorde, SR-71, the Discovery, the Enola loving Gay. Everything there is fantastic in a historical way, not just a 'huh, cool' way.

We'd done the in-town smithsonians the day before and I don't remember jack from them. Udvar-Hazy is amazing.

Secret for locals in the DC area: if you show up something like 1-2 hours before the Udvar-Hazy center closes, they don't charge you the exorbitant parking fee. You might think "I'll take the bus," but the bus costs just as much as the parking fee. They are smarter than you.

But if money's tight and you've got the patience to scope the place out in sections, it's an option - unless you'll burn more than $12 worth of gas driving out there multiple times, which you likely would.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Bob A Feet posted:

One of the V-22 simulator instructors I know was, among many other platforms, an OV-10 pilot. I'll pick his brain sometime this week to see what he knows. Any specific questions?

Were OV-10s ever earmarked for chemical weapons delivery? If so, was there ever any training for it (obviously with simulants)?

They seem like they'd be pretty well suited for the task, but I've only ever seen dispersion tests done with platforms like F-4s in 60s/70s-era declassified videos on Youtube.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Aug 31, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

iyaayas01 posted:

Most likely explanation is "generic airplane control center looking interior, approximately 707-sized but who really cares"

I mean, this is Independence Day we're talking about here.

I still remember the set for the Looking Glass plane in the movie By Dawn's Early Light. They *wish* they had that much space internally.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Inacio posted:

I still dream of one day building either a Long-EZ or an E-Racer.

And telling everyone new you take up in it, just at the point of V1, that "hey, did you know this is the plane that killed John Denver?" *pause* "Well, not this *exact* plane...just the *exact* same type. How ya doin' back there?"

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Geoj posted:

Given the rate at which the DoD is fire-selling surplus equipment to state and local governments/law enforcement I'm kind of surprised its not a defanged Apache.



Only a matter of time...

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

zzuupp posted:

Whoa. ? a vertical take off from the tidal basin ?

Wrong basin. That's the *Yacht Basin*, also known as the Pentagon Lagoon. Not making GBS threads you. The exact waterline of which demarcates where Virginia ends and the smellier swamp that is DC begins.

EDIT: Welp, beaten.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.


I support the Firehog idea simply because I want to see Hoser Satrapa fly one.

"WHY THE gently caress DID'YA TAKE OUT THE GUN?!?!?"

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Sagebrush posted:

So they fire off all their artillery, and a bunch of people in Seoul die, but then...what? They don't have an air force that can even keep up with what's currently stationed in South Korea, let alone any other aid the ROK's allies might send, and without air superiority an army isn't going to get very far.

It would be almost be a bluff, though, because while shelling Seoul seems like suicide, neither South Korea nor China nor anyone else in the world has any interest in dealing with the 25 million piss-poor brainwashed refugees they'd create if the country were occupied. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned into an Israel-Gaza situation where repeated minor attacks get tolerated because "liberating" the country is comparatively a lot less palatable.

The markets would take a significant short to midterm hit if Seoul were to be sort of 'closed' for a while. You're also leaving out the fact that a lot of people in South Korea simply want nothing to do with those 25+ million piss-poor brainwashed refugees. I've heard some speculation that the only reason there hasn't been a military coup in North Korea is because no one wants to inherit the responsibility of molding the country into a garden-variety totalitarian setup - it's just easier to coddle and 'advise' their autistic god-child.

It's saying something when pretty much the only system NK could aspire to at present is 'let's be like Belarus.'

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Still, they don't technically have to reach Seoul - just wait for a good wind and load GB (and anthrax) shells.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Sep 22, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

priznat posted:

The awful CBC docudrama on the Arrow starring Dan Aykroyd beat any Avro-stalgia out of this here canuck.

"THIS PLANE WILL BE ABLE TO CURE CANCER AND AIDS EVEN THOUGH THE SECOND ONE DOESN'T EXIST YET!"

Also, while we're at it, let's trivialize all the fine Canadian wimmin engineers who worked on the fukkin' thing by conglomeratin' all of 'em inta one attractive middle-aged looker, eh?

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Madurai posted:

Army Tells Karem, AVX To Take A Hike. Big companies win bids, little guys told their technology is "interesting."

Big companies give flag officers cushy low- jobs when they retire. Little companies (provided they don't go bankrupt after all-inning on the failed bid or have themselves and their 'interesting ideas' bought on-the-cheap by the big contractors) hire the flags who didn't 'play ball' as 'consultants.'

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Oct 4, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

To be fair, when an aircraft goes into a violent spin at Mach 5+, *everyone* inside it shits simply because eventually the body's going to be torn in half at the weakest point. poo poo is poo poo, regardless of what hole, wound, or laceration it escapes from, and a pound of poo poo at 20g suddenly becomes a barbell in the lower intestine.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Oct 6, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.


I think that's the unit Hoser Satrapa flies with (since I know for sure he flies S-2s in CA) - hopefully it wasn't his.

EDIT: It was a DynCorp pilot that went down, and Hoser flies for them: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/hoser-satrapa/23/253/3ab

EDIT 2: Pilot confirmed dead. He was trying to spread retardant on a canyon wall and flew into it, 'disintegrating' by one eyewitness' account. The identity of the pilot won't be released until all immediate family members are notified. =/

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Oct 8, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

So it wasn't Hoser who bought it in California, not that it makes the loss of life any less tragic:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...-at-5809564.php

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Inacio posted:



Man I am just on a ugly flying machine spree today

How nice of the German Army to label where a ZSU should aim.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

hobbesmaster posted:

edit: Re guns, F-22 apparently still uses the ancient M61 with 400 rounds and vietnam was about 200 rounds per kill from what I can find.

The F-22 and Super Hornets use the M61A2, which is the same drat thing, just lighter and with thinner barrels. That being said, the Soviets go so ga-ga over large-bore cannon simply because they've historically had more cause to strafe people. And just remember - the only F-35 version getting the new 25mm gun mounted internally is the -35B, while the Carrier and STOVL have to carry it externally.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Kilonum posted:

the B is the STOVL

A is the conventional variant, B is STOVL, C is carrier

Yeah, you're right. Still, the only F-35 with an internal gun is the CTOL variant for the Air Force.

Godholio posted:

The US found those planes so valuable we left them behind. I'm pretty sure the USAF legit owns a few copies of both of those airframes. I know there are MiG-21s on display on USAF bases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4477th...uation_Squadron

One of their MiG-23s killed a General. And while the 4477th doesn't exist anymore, it's known that the USAF procured a few MiG-29Ks (complete with mounting and arming circuitry for nuclear ordnance), and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they don't have a Flanker or two by now.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Oct 18, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Godholio posted:

The US found those planes so valuable we left them behind. I'm pretty sure the USAF legit owns a few copies of both of those airframes. I know there are MiG-21s on display on USAF bases.

I think the only plane we actually had any interest in digging out and taking home with us in Iraq was a more recent MiG-25RB variant we'd never seen or gotten our hands on before - evidently it had the export version of the ELINT suite intact. Wouldn't shock me if they brought some extra MiG-23 parts home, too.

Here's the kind of stuff we did with the rest:

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Oct 18, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Duke Chin posted:

Sure hope they yoinked the APU out of those -16's before they shot them down...

I mean, they're not that crazy, right?

I'd imagine the hydrazine in the power units would dissipate before hitting ground level or be ignited by the primary detonation of the missile warhead or the secondary detonation of the fuel. It's an issue when an intact airframe crashes, but a aircraft at altitude getting popped...not to mention I'm sure they'll be shooting these things down over the Gulf of Mexico or the western test ranges only.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Oct 19, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

While we're on the subject of ludicrous planes and even more ludicrous engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_XF-84H

And even though it was just a test plane, this is one of the weirdest looking wings I've ever seen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...1_Thunderceptor

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Nebakenezzer posted:

I'm not sure how much truth there is in it, but my impression of Von Braun was that he was a total 'ends justify means' sorta guy. Like when the first V-2 was constructed, he turned to one of his fellow scientists and said "we have just built the first spaceship.'

Not to mention the quote they put into the last Iron Man movie, how von Braun claimed after the first successful wartime use of the V-2 that 'the rocket behaved perfectly - it just landed on the wrong planet.'

And if anything, though I can fault his funding source, there are tons of extraordinarily-gifted scientists and engineers who don't give a drat how or who funds their research or what gets developed from it as long as there's a steady paycheck and/or the ability to keep publishing (one is usually exclusive of the other).

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Jonny Nox posted:

Can anyone tell me more about this beauty? I'd like to get more photos if possible

Look up "Tiger Meet" photos on GIS - I'd bet money this is one from the past decade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Tiger_Association

Same plane from a different angle:



The thread should also prepare for an onslaught of magnificent loving tiger-themed paint job pictures that make this F-16's look like poo poo. Like this one:

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Oct 31, 2014

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Slo-Tek posted:

They successfully trapped an F-35C on a carrier today, just like a real airplane. http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2014/11...rcraft-carrier/

The really telling thing will be how long until they do it again. If it's about a month, they likely found a *small* anomaly that's easily fixable. If it's more or *significantly* more than a month, say hello to another year-plus of development. I hope someone got the BuNo of that thing, so they can ask why they're using a 'virgin' F-35C every time.

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

Nebakenezzer posted:

Was the Thor the missile they would just set up outside in foreign countries with local NATO troops guarding them?

The Thors were all located in the UK under dual-key control. You're thinking of the Jupiters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGM-19...tary_deployment

Fun Fact: The Turkish government "deeply resented" the removal of the missiles, because I guess they liked the idea of dying first in WW3. To be fair, Castro was furious when the Soviets pulled theirs out as well.

BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 08:15 on Nov 4, 2014

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BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your move...'cause mine's gonna be ugly.

I wonder how much of that brush kicked up is/were rattlesnakes flung all over hell and gone by the rotor wash?

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