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bausOfSauce
Nov 5, 2005
master of string cheese

Manually lowering any hammer/striker on a loaded chamber skeeves me way way way out

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NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


It's one fatality in 48 years of USPSA. It's regrettable but it's not some inherent flaw with the rules. Remember when you talk 'accidents waiting to happen' that the sport involves people running around and shooting things.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




NickBlasta posted:

It's one fatality in 48 years of USPSA. It's regrettable but it's not some inherent flaw with the rules. Remember when you talk 'accidents waiting to happen' that the sport involves people running around and shooting things.

I do hear you on that. It's a really low rate of fatal injury, especially compared to football or motor sports.

But, it seems like a completely avoidable injury. If it was something that could be easily prevented, it shouldn't have happened.

Also, I'm blaming the equipment more than the people. Things get dropped.

(I don't compete and am speaking strictly from what I've read. Take me with a grain of salt.)

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


NickBlasta posted:

It's one fatality in 48 years of USPSA. It's regrettable but it's not some inherent flaw with the rules. Remember when you talk 'accidents waiting to happen' that the sport involves people running around and shooting things.

We've known that hammer down on a loaded chamber is dangerous in a dropped gun condition since 1873 and the SAA. It's been brought up several times to USPSA staff over the past decade and probably more. At a certain point there is some culpability in allowi a bad rule that allows an avoidable dangerous condition to continue to exist, especially when it's only applied to some guns but others are allowed to exist in a safer state that doesn't really offer much of a competitive advantage.

flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



I don't really understand the rules either. My friend bought a decocker CZ just so he didn't have to manually decock and got into arguments with people about whether he was able to use it or not, which seems asinine to me

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



MazeOfTzeentch posted:

It was a cz shadow, they are not drop safe with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, full stop. From stock

Can you explain? Everything I know about it I learned reading the brianenos thread about this death, so I'm trying to understand how it works. I get that since it has an inertial FP and no FPB, it's not drop safe to drops on the muzzle, but since you specified hammer down, and since in this case the gun landed on its hammer, I'm guessing that's not what you mean. With a stock FP and hammer down, shouldn't the hammer be resting on the slide and therefore not discharge when the hammer's impacted?

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


When the gun falls on the hammer, it imparts the momentum of the gun into the hammer, which is then transferred to the firing pin. It's enough to push the pin hard enough to reach the primer and set it off, even though the firing pin doesn't contact the hammer and primer simultaneously

NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


MazeOfTzeentch posted:

We've known that hammer down on a loaded chamber is dangerous in a dropped gun condition since 1873 and the SAA. It's been brought up several times to USPSA staff over the past decade and probably more. At a certain point there is some culpability in allowi a bad rule that allows an avoidable dangerous condition to continue to exist, especially when it's only applied to some guns but others are allowed to exist in a safer state that doesn't really offer much of a competitive advantage.

With a factory pin it is not dangerous as far as I'm aware. With an extended pin and a reduced power return spring it can be. The extended pins are extended on the portion that protrudes from the firing pin stop, so it is possible to transfer momentum to them through the hammer at rest to set off the round.

This can all be avoided by not dropping your firearm.

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



I'm having trouble visualizing how the hammer transfers momentum to the FP once it's fully at rest resting on the slide. I see how it's touching the FP too, but it doesn't seem like the hammer can impart any momentum to it unless it's swinging down and able to hit it when it's protruding proud of the slide.

The extended FP scenario makes sense to me since with the hammer lowered at rest, it's not actually resting on the slide: it's resting on the FP, which is resting on the primer.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Picture a newton's cradle but the balls are a hammer, firing pin, and a concrete floor

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



Newton's balls are all free to impart momentum on each other (gross). The fully-lowered hammer's not free to impart momentum on the FP because it's impeded by the slide (the firing pin stop I guess, technically).

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


I guess someone with a stock shadow 2 needs to put a primed case in it and drop it and see what it does then vv

e: point is if the rules allowed it and it was at half cock the dude would still be alive

frunksock
Feb 21, 2002



That's what the ppl on brianenos were doing (hitting the hammer with a mallet instead of dropping). They got a primed case to ignite with an extended pin but I don't think anyone got one to fire stock.

I don't disagree half-cock sounds safer. I assume tons of people with shadows are using extended pins and probably have no idea it's any less safe.

flightless greeb
Jan 28, 2016



Thanks for clearing that up. I and tons of people I know shoot CZs in this sport and it helps to have the information all logically in order.

I promise not to put an extended firing pin in my gun and I promise to try not to drop it. I can't get a decocker CZ and I can't change the rules of USPSA so I'll do what I can instead!

Collateral Damage
Jun 13, 2009



So what's the theoretical advantage they're trying to eliminate by forcing you to start hammer down rather than at half cock?

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Probably trying to stop gamer bois putting a half cock notch right below the SA sear so it's basically a slightly longer SA pull than a true DA pull.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

frunksock posted:

Newton's balls are all free to impart momentum on each other (gross). The fully-lowered hammer's not free to impart momentum on the FP because it's impeded by the slide (the firing pin stop I guess, technically).

Put a bunch of bricks on a table, put a ping pong ball between them on the table, and have someone hit the bottom of the table under the ball with a mallet. The ping pong ball is going to jump.

NickBlasta
May 16, 2003

Clearly their proficiency at shooting is supernatural, not practical, in origin.


MazeOfTzeentch posted:

e: point is if the rules allowed it and it was at half cock the dude would still be alive

Dropping your gun is against the rules.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Certified Centrist Trash


NickBlasta posted:

Dropping your gun is against the rules.

NDs are against the rules too, they still happen. Defense in depth isn't a difficult concept, don't be obtuse.

I've measured the pull weight on my CZ from half-cock and hammer down, average of 10 pulls is the same within an ounce or two, there's more variation between individual pulls than between that average. Yeah, gaming the system would likely happen, but the USPSA is far from above saying that x% of the DA travel must happen at minimum.

22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Nov 17, 2020

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



That really sucks. What a tragedy. I shoot a CZ Shadow II in USPSA. Just let me start from half-cock plz.



MazeofTzeetch covered basically everything. Iíll add, A lot of try-hard CZ Shadow II owners (Iím including myself here) use reloads tuned to their gun with Federal primers, because Federal primers are easier to ignite and you can use a weaker hammer spring for a lighter trigger.

It will be interesting to see if there are any changes. Handle your firearms with care yíall. See the pistol all the way into the holster, every time.

Lunchboxx
Jun 19, 2004

His name is Head. Dick Head.


Well, I think I'm ready for 2021.







12k through the original between May-October this year. It feels really good compared to the new one, which is incredibly stiff and almost too tight. I'm going to try to use it exclusively for a few months to break it in, and am already planning out my majors schedule for the year.

Fingers crossed that the components shortage doesn't last more than a year or two. Can't run out of ammo now!

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013



Lunchboxx posted:

Well, I think I'm ready for 2021.







12k through the original between May-October this year. It feels really good compared to the new one, which is incredibly stiff and almost too tight. I'm going to try to use it exclusively for a few months to break it in, and am already planning out my majors schedule for the year.

Fingers crossed that the components shortage doesn't last more than a year or two. Can't run out of ammo now!

I don't think I've ever wanted a gun as much as I want one of those right now. Holy poo poo they look amazing

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

What division am I supposed to compete in with a 9mm 2011? It's not a Single Stack, it's not Production, it's not Limited, it's not Open.

Lunchboxx
Jun 19, 2004

His name is Head. Dick Head.


infrared35 posted:

What division am I supposed to compete in with a 9mm 2011? It's not a Single Stack, it's not Production, it's not Limited, it's not Open.

It's definitely Limited, only difference is you're shooting minor. You can fit a few extra bullets per mag and recoil is a little nicer, but most people don't care for the points drop.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Lunchboxx posted:

It's definitely Limited, only difference is you're shooting minor. You can fit a few extra bullets per mag and recoil is a little nicer, but most people don't care for the points drop.

I'm not that good, so it probably won't make much difference.

Marvin K. Mooney
Jan 2, 2008

poop ship
destroyer


Yeah shoot alphas and it won't matter!

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Marvin K. Mooney posted:

Yeah shoot alphas and it won't matter!

Ten four, good buddy.

Time Crisis Actor
Apr 28, 2002


I sexually identify as a fat tinder girl,

Yeah lemme just clean my pannus first.

These candles smell amazing btw


infrared35 posted:

What division am I supposed to compete in with a 9mm 2011? It's not a Single Stack, it's not Production, it's not Limited, it's not Open.

9mm 2011s are really designed for 3gun. You can shoot it in USPSA limited, but without major scoring youíre at a definite disadvantage

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



Lunchboxx posted:

Well, I think I'm ready for 2021.

I like your guns a lot. I like the orange+honeycomb grips. Good combo.

One of my fav things about competition shooting is seeing guns that have colors other than black+FDE

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




infrared35 posted:

What division am I supposed to compete in with a 9mm 2011? It's not a Single Stack, it's not Production, it's not Limited, it's not Open.

Limited 10. You'll probably just win by default.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

poopgiggle posted:

Limited 10. You'll probably just win by default.

Thatís why I still shoot revolver.

MazeOfTzeentch
May 2, 2009

rip miso beno


Don't forget steel challenge fits a 9mm 2011 in limited really well, as there's no PF rules

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

MazeOfTzeentch posted:

Don't forget steel challenge fits a 9mm 2011 in limited really well, as there's no PF rules

They did a steel challenge the first year I moved here, and then they just stopped. I don't know where the nearest one is. It was fun though.

And Lim10 sounds hilarious. It really wouldn't be any different from shooting IDPA, or IPSC in Canada.

poopgiggle
Feb 7, 2006

it isn't easy being a cross dominate shooter.




infrared35 posted:

They did a steel challenge the first year I moved here, and then they just stopped. I don't know where the nearest one is. It was fun though.

And Lim10 sounds hilarious. It really wouldn't be any different from shooting IDPA, or IPSC in Canada.

https://scsa.org/find-a-club might help, but obviously outlaw steel matches won't show up on there.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

poopgiggle posted:

https://scsa.org/find-a-club might help, but obviously outlaw steel matches won't show up on there.

Sweet...

Although the nearest club is 200 miles away.

Time Crisis Actor
Apr 28, 2002


I sexually identify as a fat tinder girl,

Yeah lemme just clean my pannus first.

These candles smell amazing btw


Does anyone know which magwells would fit the newer version Staccato P? One of my shooting buddies just got one and he wants to put a magwell on it, but the only official ones are those crappy "tactical" Dawson magwells. Would something compatible with STI polymer grips likely fit?

Lunchboxx
Jun 19, 2004

His name is Head. Dick Head.


Happy New Year... 1/1 is when a bunch of USPSA majors open up for registration.

I'm currently signed up for seven major matches. Registration alone was $1000.

A few more haven't opened yet, and even a few others haven't even been announced.

This is gonna be a big year. Time to make the ammo.

Homie S
Aug 6, 2001

This is what it means

I wish I could say the same. Without more freedom seeds I don't think I'll be competing nearly as much as I want to. I don't really want to get into reloading, and even then ingredients are hard to come by. ughhhh /rantoversorry

Lunchboxx
Jun 19, 2004

His name is Head. Dick Head.


Yeah, this is not the best time to get into reloading. Unless you already have a stockpile of components or are able to set up bot monitoring and sit behind your computer/phone to immediately jump on any notifications, you're not going to get what you need at reasonable prices.

I wasn't able to stockpile as much as I wanted but have managed to get lucky on a few drops of primers, so I'm hoping I have enough to last me into next year.

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Attended my first bullseye match in nearly twenty years. With an unzeroed optic on the pistol.

Got a 378/600.

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