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Mans posted:
This is double speaky to me. The Romans were bad and genocidal (sort of) but their collapse was an opportunity. It cuts both ways. I'm not saying that the barbarian's were EEEEEVIL or anything. They were doing what they did, moving around trying to survive or hunting for glory or getting by, and I think the whole movement of the peoples in that time is fascinating. I wish they'd been more literate so we could hear there side of the story. Still, for the people who'd been isolated from the worst of the wars, who'd enjoyed Pax Romana and the roads and aqueducts, yeah, the collapse had its downsides, regardless of who to 'blame for it.' Maybe a more centralized state could've dealt with the Vikings better, maybe Italy wouldn't be such a freaking mess, maybe, well, whatever. I don't really see the point in moralizing something like the collapse of the Empire, it was simply to big and multifaceted for anyone to have been responsible for it, much less applying some sort of moral judgement. Actually, I'd love to learn more about the integration of German into Europe as a whole. It went from this dark land the ate Legions and poo poo invading hordes who had a penchant for ending up in Spain or North Africa to being full of these big ole' cities, home to a Baltic trade league and a multitude of princedoms of varying levels of pettiness.
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# ? Nov 6, 2011 19:00 |
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# ? Apr 26, 2024 20:02 |
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Jiriam posted:My father was a regular army and then national guard officer in the sixties and seventies, and when he died I inherited boxes and boxes of guerilla warfare manuals and books of tactical problems that talk about 'the enemy' -but you can tell it's the soviets- in really dehumanizing terms. It's weird, and frightening to me. That's interesting. My great-grandfather had a Soviet WWII guerilla warfare manual, which didn't dehumanize the enemy at all. Most of it was on weapons maintenance, hand to hand combat, how to take out a tank with no anti-tank weapons and how to survive in the Russian wilderness. There were parts on interrogation, but all they consisted of were phrases you may want to ask, such as where the base is located, how many tanks they have, etc. It was all about how to defeat the enemy, not convincing the reader that the enemy needs to be defeated.
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# ? Nov 6, 2011 19:12 |
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Well, the Suebi and Saline Franks where very in touch with the Roman world before entering it, Alaric was educated in Constantinople and Theodoric was pretty much a satellite of the same city. The only major players who i assume had zero to no Roman contact where the Vandals and the Burgundians, who came from Scandinavia.
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# ? Nov 6, 2011 19:23 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:That's interesting. My great-grandfather had a Soviet WWII guerilla warfare manual, which didn't dehumanize the enemy at all [...] It was all about how to defeat the enemy, not convincing the reader that the enemy needs to be defeated. If it was written actually during World War 2, then that was presumably because its readership had all the evidence they needed of that thanks to their own eyes...
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# ? Nov 6, 2011 23:28 |
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I think there could be a difference between 'dehumanize' and 'demonize' that is being missed here. When military manuals dehumanize the enemy, they treat them as a technical problem that needs to be eliminated as efficiently as possible. When they demonize them, they beg for you to cause as much human suffering to them as possible. Military manuals never try to humanize the enemy, by the way. It's not part of the training.
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# ? Nov 6, 2011 23:35 |
Mans posted:
The Portuguese did pay lip service to the idea that Angola and Mozambique were as Portuguese as Portugal itself was. There was a process where an African could gain the full rights of a Portuguese citizen similar to what the Belgians did in the Congo and the French did in North and West Africa. Essentially, you had to remove all aspects of yourself that made you African and totally embrace a European identity(Perfect Portuguese, Catholic, adopt European customs and dress). Very few Africans, relative to the total colonial populations, ever achieved the status of Assimilado(or Evolue in French colonies. I think Belgians used the same term). Africa from 1945 to present day is one of the most illogical, senseless and depressing but interesting places/times in my opinion.
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# ? Nov 7, 2011 00:42 |
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Veins McGee posted:Africa from 1945 to present day is one of the most illogical, senseless and depressing but interesting places/times in my opinion. Agreed. Where else would you get General Butt Naked?
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# ? Nov 7, 2011 02:22 |
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Nenonen posted:Actually, I would really much enjoy reading about this kind of useless minutiae. If that is your expertise, do share. Of course, the thing is you could write hundreds of pages about it if you really get down into it. But it's really interesting how the differing naval technologies - sail vs. coal vs. fuel oil (is this a correct term for ships?) vs. nuclear have fundamentally changed every aspect of naval strategies so many times within the span of just a couple of centuries. Whereas wind is free (and by 19th century it was figured out how to prevent scurvy even on long trips), coal had to be supplied one way or another, which meant a strategic challenge for it greatly favoured great naval powers like UK that had bases all along the coasts. It did not just change naval strategies. The coal stations and supply of coal was a giant cause of colonialism in the Indian Ocean and far Pacific. And coal based fleets were very dependent on coal quality and availability for their actions. The most well known is the Russian Baltic fleet that went from Petersburg all the way to Japan only to get smashed at Tsushima. That story is quite amazing, truth be told. After the Japanese launched a sneak attack at the Russian fleet at Port Arthur (sound familiar?) and torpedoed the fleet out of the conflict, the Russian Baltic fleet was dispatched to go help. This fleet suffered bad luck wherever it went. First of all, in the North sea the fleet attacked some British fishing boats assuming they were Japanese. Yep, Japanese fishing boats off Denmark was their reasoning. That almost caused war with Britan, who had an alliance with Japan. Hard to believe that a few years from then they would ally. Nonetheless, any thought of the fleet refueling at British ports was out of the question. Or using the Suez Canal. So what was left? The French Empire. Taking the LONG way to Japan, (with world news reporting their positions, and the Brits supplying the Japanese with ship intel), the fleet went from French port to port always filling up and taking their time. In Madagascar and Indochina they overstayed their welcome and were diplomatically forced to leave after coaling and resupply. Morale was low, the coal was low quality, resulting in slower ships and more smoke from their stacks. And eventually the Japanese caught them and smashed them, supposedly by viewing the hospital ship that was fully lit according to the Geneva convention, and figuring out the position of the fleet itself. The coal situation caused the slow fleet speed, the predictable path of the fleet around the world, and logistical nightmares throughout the colonies, not to mention the battle limitations. Pre-dreadnoughts began to spray fuel oil on their coal as a regular measure, and navies would use dual coal/fuel driven ships. It was not until 1912 that Churchill as First Lord would seek an arrangement with the Anglo-Persian Oil Company (later called BP) for a constant supply of high quality fuel, that the UK created a fuel only super-dreadnought, the Queen Elizabeth class. It is interesting that right before WW1 the armies of all the nations were mostly old-guard thinkers who did not really incorporate technology in their plans and doctrine, but the navies were always at the cutting edge with new doctrines and new integrations of technology.
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# ? Nov 7, 2011 04:41 |
Grand Prize Winner posted:Agreed. Where else would you get General Butt Naked? A friend of my Dad's was on the MEU that landed in Liberia in 1995ish to evacuate the embassy. I remember hearing about him when I was growing up.
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# ? Nov 7, 2011 08:18 |
Mister Gopher posted:It is interesting that right before WW1 the armies of all the nations were mostly old-guard thinkers who did not really incorporate technology in their plans and doctrine, but the navies were always at the cutting edge with new doctrines and new integrations of technology. This is especially true, the British Army and Royal Navy suffered from Waterloo syndrome as I like to call it where they clung onto the tactics and technology of the late Napoleonic Wars until the twilight years of the 19th century. Some of the thinking sadly stayed until 1920 much to the sadness to many British volunteers families. The Royal Navy was especially determined to keep using its sails even when the French Navy started to use steam engines and bolted on the first metal armour to their ships hulls. The Navy of course only then upgraded because blarrghbllry the French! I think sometimes it was a miracle the Army managed to get generals like Napier.
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# ? Nov 7, 2011 15:51 |
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SeanBeansShako posted:The Royal Navy was especially determined to keep using its sails even when the French Navy started to use steam engines and bolted on the first metal armour to their ships hulls. The Navy of course only then upgraded because blarrghbllry the French! Yeah this isn't actually true at all despite what "common knowledge" says. The Royal Navy was using steam in a big way by the 1830s but until the screw propeller came into its own the bigger warships couldn't use steam very effectively without compromising their broadside firepower. Paddlewheels were a massive weakness on a battleship. Also reducing the philosophy behind the first ironclads was "blarrghbllry the French" is the kind of horrible Geoffrey Regan/Oh What A Lovely War nonsense that this thread should be specifically trying to dispel. Sails were also retained because the early engines weren't particularly good and there wasn't a network of global coaling stations until the last couple decades of the 1800s. Notice that the mastless warships like Devastation were never sent much farther abroad than the Mediterranean because there was neither the infrastructure to support them or anything there they would be needed to fight anyways. Read Steam, Steel, and Shellfire and John Beeler's Birth of the Battleship for more information. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 9, 2011 |
# ? Nov 9, 2011 21:45 |
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Weren't the last sail vessels also especially fast when compared to the early steam vessels?
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# ? Nov 9, 2011 22:07 |
I never said I was an expert, I might be just mixing things up from one of those BBC Magazines I uploaded a while back.
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# ? Nov 10, 2011 00:04 |
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Also reducing the philosophy behind the first ironclads was "blarrghbllry the French" is the kind of horrible Geoffrey Regan/Oh What A Lovely War nonsense that this thread should be specifically trying to dispel. Yeah, this is a navy that reacted to the French laying down an ironclad by designing and launching only a year behind HMS Warrior. Also it's difficult to see what Napoleonic thinking survived to the 1920's.
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# ? Nov 10, 2011 00:20 |
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Mans posted:Weren't the last sail vessels also especially fast when compared to the early steam vessels? Do you mean Clippers?
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# ? Nov 10, 2011 00:22 |
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I think he does, and isn't he right? Clippers were amazingly fast but their sails required a lot more manpower than coal-fired engines so once coal became cheaper than manpower they were unsustainable. By the 1940s or so there were pretty much no civilian sailing ships left that weren't pleasure craft. I remember reading something about the last clipper ships serving into the 1930s in the South Pacific hauling coal.
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# ? Nov 10, 2011 01:04 |
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Alchenar posted:HMS Warrior. She's not the prettiest ship in the world, but the engineering below decks is enchanting. Well worth a walk around if you ever get the chance.
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# ? Nov 10, 2011 01:17 |
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I think he does, and isn't he right? Clippers were amazingly fast but their sails required a lot more manpower than coal-fired engines so once coal became cheaper than manpower they were unsustainable. By the 1940s or so there were pretty much no civilian sailing ships left that weren't pleasure craft. Also a large amount of sail ships owned by the powers in WW1 were either captured, sunk, or retired for the new merchant crafts put out by the industrial nations during the war. Especially the UK, France and Italy. Even the neutral powers of the Netherlands, Spain and Norway quickly industrialized their remaining merchant fleets during that time.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 03:37 |
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Keep in mind that naval services are very big on tradition, even more than other sections of the armed forces. US Navy officer candidates had to spend significant amounts of training time learning how to navigate with a sextant and star chart until 1997.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 05:58 |
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Konstantin posted:Keep in mind that naval services are very big on tradition, even more than other sections of the armed forces. US Navy officer candidates had to spend significant amounts of training time learning how to navigate with a sextant and star chart until 1997. At least around here in Europe, those are still required skills for 1st mates and captains in the merchant navy. A friend of mine is currently studying navigation for a boat license and I think navigating like that is still part of the curriculum. It's good to know if your more modern equipment fails.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 07:45 |
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Yeah, even with all the redundancies in the world, any decent sized boat really should be capable of celestial navigation.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 09:01 |
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SeanBeansShako posted:The Royal Navy was especially determined to keep using its sails even when the French Navy started to use steam engines and bolted on the first metal armour to their ships hulls. The Navy of course only then upgraded because blarrghbllry the French! The Royal Navy gets a lot of crap for being reactionary and opposed to innovation. They were on the forefront of naval engineering, limited only by budgets, the success of new inventions and the whole ramming detour. The Warrior, which was linked earlier, was as fast as any sailing ship but the clippers and was an armored iron hull, not wood plated with iron like the Gloire. Sails hung around for a couple of decades, but the first line ships went to all steam fairly quickly after Warrior. The cheaper ships meant for foreign stations needed a longer endurance than the battleships in home waters. The RN did go wildly wrong with the emphasis on ramming, but so did a lot of people. It DID get them thinking about underwater damage and lead to the RN adopting torpedoes as quickly as they did. Against a lot of opposition they were pioneers in submarine development. Old fashioned thinkers don't create naval revolutions in succeeding generations.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 09:36 |
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mllaneza posted:The Royal Navy gets a lot of crap for being reactionary and opposed to innovation. They were on the forefront of naval engineering, limited only by budgets, the success of new inventions and the whole ramming detour. The Warrior, which was linked earlier, was as fast as any sailing ship but the clippers and was an armored iron hull, not wood plated with iron like the Gloire. Sails hung around for a couple of decades, but the first line ships went to all steam fairly quickly after Warrior. The cheaper ships meant for foreign stations needed a longer endurance than the battleships in home waters. It really depends on what time period you are talking about. Certainly for most of the age of sail the Royal Navy was permanently a step behind France as a result of a dockyard system in the UK that worked on a guildlike Master and apprentice system instead of a much more professional and scientific French system. Most innovations in the Royal Navy came from the capture of more advanced French ships. In the 18th Century it was the French who designed the 74 gun line ship, as well as the Classical frigate. Likewise Fischer fully appreciated the value of torpedoes, but he still presided over an Admiralty which spend the largest naval budget in the world mostly on Dreadnought building.
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# ? Nov 11, 2011 10:45 |
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I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about Black units in the US military in the Pacific theater (WW2)? I mean actual formations, be they land, sea or air, not some guy cleaning a ship or something. Where the Marines all-white at this point? thanks!
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 13:07 |
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Can't really tell that much, but the Tuskegee Airmen were probably the most famous one.
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 19:34 |
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I'm curious about special operations during the cold war. Is there any information about special forces missions in either the US or the Soviet Union during the cold war? I'm not thinking about spy operations or missions in satelite/third party countries, but of actual special forces combat missions on soviet or american soil.
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 19:58 |
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about Black units in the US military in the Pacific theater (WW2)? I mean actual formations, be they land, sea or air, not some guy cleaning a ship or something. Where the Marines all-white at this point? I don't know much about the Marine Corps, but the African Americans in the Navy were prevented from serving in anything but the Mess Hall until after Pearl Harbor. The ban was lifted due to the actions of Doris Miller. During the attack, he personally attended to the ship's mortally wounded captain, and afterwards manned an AA emplacement (Something he had no prior training for) until the ship went down and he was forced to evacuate. He earned a Navy Cross for his actions (Second only to the Medal of Honor, which many thought he should have received instead) and went on to give a War Bond tour before being shipped out again, where he was killed in action. Unfortunately, discrimination in the Navy continued for some time-apparently, by mid 1943 the Navy had 100,000 African American sailors without a single officer among them. It wasn't until 1944 that the first African American officers were commissioned. (One of these men, Samuel L. Gravely, Jr, eventually rose to become the Navy's first African American Flag Officer.)
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 19:59 |
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Nenonen posted:I think there could be a difference between 'dehumanize' and 'demonize' that is being missed here. When military manuals dehumanize the enemy, they treat them as a technical problem that needs to be eliminated as efficiently as possible. When they demonize them, they beg for you to cause as much human suffering to them as possible. Do you know of an online resource where I can see old military training manuals? I've read a couple, and they're fascinating.
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 21:04 |
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http://www.alanhamby.com/tigerfibel.shtml This one is a classic, a manual to the crew of Tiger Tanks.
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 22:49 |
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This page has several chapters from the Partisan's Companion, a book that was written to help Soviet citizens organize resistance against German forces. The chapters are as follows: Rank Insignia of the German Army Learn the Weapons of Your Enemy (brief maintenance instructions for common and uncommon weapons) Destroy Enemy Tanks! (how to fight a tank with no anti tank weapons) How Fascists Combat Partisans Rules of Interrogation How to Fight an Airborne Enemy Life in the Snow Hand to Hand Combat Camouflage Combat Arms (same thing as Learn the Weapons of Your Enemy, but for Soviet weapons) Travel and Campground Scouting
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 23:00 |
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Alchenar posted:It really depends on what time period you are talking about. Certainly for most of the age of sail the Royal Navy was permanently a step behind France as a result of a dockyard system in the UK that worked on a guildlike Master and apprentice system instead of a much more professional and scientific French system. I'm not sure I follow. Yes, they spend huge sums of money on the brand new, truly superior, really big warships then developed (loosely speaking, All Big Gun was going to happen). They had enough money left over to have the world's largest submarine force in 1914, as well as pioneering in naval aviation. By the end of WW1 the Grand Fleet had over 100 aircraft organic to the battleline and cruiser squadrons. A High Seas Fleet sortie late in the war would have had to deal with flocks of scouting aircraft and shot-spotting planes.
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# ? Nov 14, 2011 23:14 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:
See, this is why they won the war. Russians are super-human.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 01:09 |
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I've just re-read Stephen Tanner's A Military History of Afghanistan from Alexander the Great to the fall of The Taliban. It's a pretty good light read. I wish some parts were as detailed as others though, there's lots of detail about the first Anglo-Afghan war and the retreat from Kabul but barely 3 sentences about the third Anglo-Afghan war.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 01:50 |
Ghost of Mussolini posted:I was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about Black units in the US military in the Pacific theater (WW2)? I mean actual formations, be they land, sea or air, not some guy cleaning a ship or something. Where the Marines all-white at this point? http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/npswapa/extcontent/usmc/pcn-190-003133-00/sec7.htm http://www.montfordpointmarines.com/Library.pdf http://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/article/world-war-ii-montford-point-marines-honoring-and-preserving-their-legacy Information is kind of sparse. From what I've read, most Black Marines served in the 51st or 52nd Defense Battalion, independent combat service support companies or as stewards.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 06:15 |
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Ensign Expendable posted:This page has several chapters from the Partisan's Companion, a book that was written to help Soviet citizens organize resistance against German forces. The chapters are as follows: (cool pics though, thanks for the link)
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 11:41 |
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I translated the most interesting chapter (the anti-tank one) in the TFR milsurp thread a while ago, if you go through my posts in there you might be able to find it.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 17:10 |
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I found the translation I posted.Ensign Expendable posted:Here you go. The original is preserved as much as possible.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 21:53 |
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Thanks! Very interesting, now I can stop a Pz.II with my buddies if need be.
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# ? Nov 15, 2011 23:21 |
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:So wish this was in English http://www.amazon.com/Partisans-Companion-Deadly-Techniques-Freedom/dp/1581604637 http://www.amazon.com/YOURSELF-BASHING-GUERRILLA-WARFARE-MANUAL/dp/1612000096/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1321450362&sr=1-1 Here it is in English. I own the second one and it's quite fun.
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# ? Nov 16, 2011 14:33 |
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# ? Apr 26, 2024 20:02 |
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The descriptions make it out to be a lot more exciting than it really is. I would also challenge its effectiveness in training Iraqi guerillas. A large amount of the book such as chemical warfare, winter survival, weapon maintenance, and of the German specific chapters would not be applicable to combat outside of that specific theater. If I were to choose one, I would go with the Schmitt translation. The Grau and Greiss book seems to be pushing the popular history angle way too hard.
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# ? Nov 18, 2011 05:16 |