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Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Timmy Cruise posted:

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but I am looking for an ELM327 OBDII bluetooth scanner to use with the Torque Android app.

Like this :http://www.amazon.com/BLUETOOTH-DIA...howViewpoints=1

The problem is, I'm in Canada and goddamn Amazon doesn't ship them here. Anyone know where I could get one?

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.42825

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Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Aeka 2.0 posted:

I can handle 1000 more, not 4500 more. I also have 10 grand in cash allotted for a car, so the APR isn't that much of a big deal. Also, the "market value" may be 5k more, but they sell for 10-20k more where I live.

The new Passat is selling for $15k over MSRP where you live? :what:

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Aeka 2.0 posted:

Perhaps its just where I'm looking, I just did another quick look on Autotrader. The dealers were only listing 2012 years, is that even out yet?
I don't even know really what sites to look for new car pricing as I never buy new. I just checked the local dealerships site and they have a "new" 2006 for 28k. http://www.vwriverside.com/vehicle/new/29008-WVWAK73C96P078158/2006-Volkswagen-Passat.htm
So what the hell is going on?

The 2012 Passat is made in Tennesee. They've dropped the price quite a bit.

http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/passat/2012/volkswagen-slashes-price-of-2012-passat-by-7000-undercutting-japanese-rivals.html

By all accounts the new Passat is a pretty good car too, and I think the 2.5l I5 is decently reliable is it not?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

veedubfreak posted:

Isn't the 2012 Passat just a big Jetta. And by this I mean VW cut alot of corners on the new Jetta to get the price point down.

As for changing the timing belt on your 1.8t passat, if you can afford it, pay to have it done. My dad's 98 passat 1.8t took the dealership a couple days to do it as it was their first one (he put 120k on the car in 3 years). From what I've read the 1.8t belt is not fun to do.

Well that's not what the people at the article I linked to think? I'm not sure if its even that true for the Jetta. I mean current VW aficionados say that, but then current VW aficionados seem to me like a bunch of SUPERIOR GERMAN ADHESIVE assholes.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Autism Monday posted:

Because a wheel is much better for small adjustments and you don't really ever use it.

Unless the car regularly has more than one driver, in which case it is the most annoying thing in the world. Subarus have the wheel too.

If I ever get a new car I'm not even going to look at anything that doesn't have power memory seats, mirrors and steering wheel. Get in, press a button, every loving thing is adjusted properly. My old Mercedes had it and it was great (until the control module broke, and the seats came alive and tried to crush me while I was driving).

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

totalnewbie posted:

I feel like I've been doing a lot of homework and so I'm fairly confident in buying a new Golf. However, I'd like to briefly ask before I made any final decisions.

Given that I will be buying a 4-door automatic and have a supplier discount which allows me to buy at invoice price (which is NOT applicable to the TDI)

When compared to the Golf,

Does a TDI retain enough resale value to justify the higher cost if I plan to sell/trade within 3-5 years? Over 5 years?
Same question with GTI.

I'm asking purely from a financial point of view.

I did some numbers and at ~15000 miles per year and $4/gallon, the TDI would save me roughly $500/year.

I am thinking that, no, the TDI/GTI does not depreciate at such a significantly lower rate when compared to the Golf that I should buy them. Should I reconsider?

http://web.vw.com/templates/Service?serviceName=vwoffers&zipcode=12121

You can click on the offers to see the residual value at 3 years. Basically a GTI will cost you a thousand or so more in depreciation over 3 years, so it will be more expensive. Another way to look at it however would be a GTI actually only costs a couple thousand more to own over 3 years instead of the ~$6k more it costs than the Golf at MSRP.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

totalnewbie posted:

Ahh I had forgotten about Edmund's TCO tool. Looks like the TDI is not a bad choice. About 2500 more over 5 years according to Edmund's if I take out the financing from both.

So I guess if I were able to throw down a bit more right now and didn't have the supplier discount I would strongly consider the TDI.

I can also see why people are so enamored with leases. Drive a GTI for 2200 now and under 300/mo? Awesome! ...and then you realize that you then have to fork over another 14k if you don't want to be out of a car, you can only drive 36k miles without paying out the rear end, that's only a 2 door base model, blah blah blah and man leases gently caress you hard. In the 5 minutes I spent perusing the mk6 forums, I saw so many people talking about leasing a GTI.

Thank god for SA and educating me about bad decisions. Best :10bux: Thanks, I'm feeling a lot better about going with the Golf. I'm glad you guys are here to counteract that slick sales guy's attempt to talk me into getting a TDI/GTI.

Nope, a lease is actually a much better deal and I would suggest you lease the car.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3213538&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post368677717

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Aflicted posted:

Is this accurate?
Yes.

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2571830

my1999gsr posted about it on page 2 of this thread.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3298776&pagenumber=2

my1999gsr posted:

Sadly, the earlier BPY-code engines have had a very poor track record for oil consumption - I've replaced 3 engines under warranty so far for it and and as a group my shop has replaced 6-9 of them since launch and 2 of those brand new motors have started consuming oil too. Audi has a TSB about the issue that says oil consumption of .5 L of oil per 1000 kms is acceptable throughout the life of the vehicle. Keeping in mind that the service interval is 15,000 kms, if your vehicle were consuming oil at that rate then your oil pan would be empty before your first oil change. On the good side, the newer, CCTA-code 2.0t FSI-TFSI engines don't seem to have any oil consumption issues so far and we've had few complaints about them in the Audis or VW products.

I wonder if the engine will develop intake carbon deposits from the EGR/PCV? Since it is normal for it to burn oil like a 13B?

quote:

Any suggestions for other items on that motor I should be wary of?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3366758

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Sep 6, 2011

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Aflicted posted:

That is fantastic news. :(

I just went out and checked the engine code on mine since it appears they changed the motor from the shoddy one in 2008, which my car is. There is hazy information about that though. I can say that my engine code is BWT according to the stamp.

That cam follower thing is actually a bit more serious that the vwvortex thread makes it out to be. Destruction of engine could result.

http://www.motoringtv.com/matthew-osburn-s-nightmare-with-audi-canada-p143840

However it is likely that by MY 2008 it has been fixed already.

EDIT: You should probably not drive it with the low oil light on.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Sep 7, 2011

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Aflicted posted:

EDIT: I have a fresh quart of full synthetic from my S2000 days to put in for the trip out tomorrow.

Don't VAG engines all use wacky special VW 50x.xx oil too? Might want to make sure the oil is the right kind.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
It won't be that much, you still have to pay all the sales taxes, plus another ~6% duty on a non-NAFTA assembled car. Maybe a bit more if you go for the Mexican Jetta instead. Plus Canadian VW dealers won't honour the warranty on a US car (VW Canada standard bumper to bumper warranty is 4 years, vs 3 years for VW US) so you will have to take it back across the border for warranty work. This was a new policy that started in 2009 or something, so if your friends bought US cars before that they still got the warranty.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Sep 24, 2011

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Heh, in the US the Touareg has a 10 year powertrain warranty standard.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

DerDestroyer posted:

Not to sound like a dick or anything but are they going to continue giving us Golfs produced in Wolfsburg? I must admit part of the charm of the Golf for me is because it's built there. I mean surely the American markets are satisfied enough with a watered down Jetta and Passat? I'm hoping the Golf can be the premium cult fan car for people like me who are crazy enough to spend that much.

The VW Chattanooga plant in Tennessee is state of the art and I think they can build a lot more than just Passats there so I got a feeling the Golf is going to get built there too.

You already said 2 posts up that you don't even care about reliability, and yet you still want a German built car. Tell us more about why you hate brown people and only buy cars built in the fatherland by the master race.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Bovril Delight posted:

The funny thing is that door rattles and leaky sunroofs are some of the biggest complaints about VWs, including the ones built in Germany. That and the electrical gremlins.

Well it won't be an issue for him in any case since he already said he doesn't care whether the wheels fall off, only that Germans build it. Typical VAG racists at least try to insinuate that the German built cars are somehow higher quality (and then stop posting after being asked to provide evidence). In this respect DerDestroyer's frankness is refreshing.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Opensourcepirate posted:

I know I'm a little late to the discussion here, but for the 3rd generation Golf/Jetta (94-98)the ones built in Germany have held up a lot better than the ones built in Mexico. It mostly has to do with serious rust problems on the underside of the ones built in Mexico. Something to do with the superior German adhesives, or perhaps inferior Mexican adhesives.

Tell us about how this problem is due to being assembled by Mexicans instead of Germans, assuming that it's a real thing.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

totalnewbie posted:


It's very possible that Mexican assembly plants use a different supplier than German assembly plants. It's silly to instantly cry, "Racist!" just because someone points out differences in quality for the same product from different manufacturing locations.

That's not what anyone was arguing at all, but I'm not going to spend time addressing a problem that doesn't actually exist so why don't you point out which Mexican supplied part is causing widespread problems?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

totalnewbie posted:

?? The person you quoted was talking about possible adhesive differences. I don't know anything about this, I just thought you reacted in a way that didn't really reflect what was being said. I don't even know if there is a difference in rust problems between Mexico/German assembled cars. I do, however, know that different plants (in different locations) can have unique problems even if they use the same supplier. If it just happens that Mexican-assembled cars have problems then that would be an issue with their manufacturing/assembly facility. If it happened to be a problem with German-assembled cars then that particular plant may have a problem somewhere.

I don't know how true his assertion that German-assembled cars have held up better than Mexico-assembled cars is but he never said a thing about the fact that it's because the assemblers are Mexican (in fact, he specifically pointed at a [possible] supplier issue) and I don't know why you accused him of saying so.

As much as I would like to see Opensourcepirate show warranty data showing Mexico assembled cars having problems, I similarly would like to see you show warranty data showing that there are no problems.

I'm tired and have a plane to catch so I'm not going to recap the whole discussion for you. There are plenty of VW problems that are well documented all over the internet. Go have a look. Then find me one that has been traced to improper assembly by Mexicans or Mexican supplied parts. This is the crux of the matter. Maybe Mexican VWs have more problems, so what? Most VWs sold in the US are made in Mexico, if everything VW makes is garbage, then the Mexican ones are going to be more problematic because there are more of them.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Oct 12, 2011

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Magyver star Richard Dean Anderson owns one.


Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Bovril Delight posted:

Anyone know much about the W8 Passats?

Only that you should buy it as it is the ultimate VW.

Forums poster nm seems to.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

greenman100 posted:

Hmm... The JD power stats seemed to be on all cars from those manufacturer, not the specific engine. I did find that the engine was listed in Ward's 10Best Engines for 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003 though. Thanks anyway!

Welp, you sure won that argument with your superior grasp of statistics. Please continue buying turbo VWs forever. I'm sure Motronic and my1999gsr appreciate being gainfully employed and kept off the streets.

VW Drivers. :allears:

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Powdered Toast Man posted:

So...there are a few W8 Passats for sale in my area. I really don't know much about that engine at all. The prices are within the range I was looking at for replacing an older car. Does the W8 have known issues? Is it a ticking time bomb? Ridiculously expensive to fix?

It's half a Veyron engine. They sound great,the AWD is Torsen, you should buy it.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Motronic posted:

I would have to assume that it's because "over here" people don't maintain their vehicles as well or don't realize that you can't treat a VW/BMW like a j-body and expect it to continue to work properly.

It's actually because Europeans are just loving morons and don't know anything about cars, or are just used to Italian/British/Warsaw pact stuff that makes even VWs look good. Remember these are the people who are the biggest market for garbage like Top Gear and think it's a documentary.

I mean, really, how much does the average American know about cars? Probably not very much by AI standards if you think about it, but at least they have stuff like Consumer Reports to keep them within a football field of the right track - "Buy a Civic or Corolla" isn't always the best decision but it's usually not catastrophic. This is actually really important because poor Americans rely almost completely on having a reliable, cheap, usually out-of-warranty-used car for their livelihoods, and making a bad choice could really hurt. Europeans don't even have anything like that and just don't know any better. Most of them don't need to, car ownership rates in Europe, especially outside of the richest countries (UK, Germany) are much lower than North America and public transit is usually much more convenient.

I'm sure some European or Euro-phile is going to jump in with a defence, so let me make it clear, that's not my opinion, that's what the head of marketing for VW North America straight up said when he was asked that exact question.

http://www.autoline.tv/daily/?p=17878

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

meatpimp posted:

Until you have to replace ball joints. Or turbos.

quote:

I'm especially a fan of all the glowing red lights

I don't see what your problem is?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

dissss posted:

That's only really because you don't get the efficient petrol models - the 118TSI is nearly as efficient as the 103TDI and way nicer to drive (IMO except for the 7 speed DSG which is a disaster)

I drove a friend's 1.4l TSI with the 7 speed DSG a couple days ago and thought it was pretty nice. What's wrong with the DSG? v:downs:v

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
10 year 100k mile powertrain on the Touareg. German Craftsmanship :smug:

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
It's the ZF 8 speed torque converter trans. Same one Chrysler uses.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Isn't there a sticker or something on the fuel filler lid telling you what to put in?

These are the people who buy Audi S6es.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

asmallrabbit posted:

So I have a question about my 2011 A4. Has the s-line package, quattro and its a manual. I've noticed intermittently it won't shift into 1st when I'm at a stop, like the gate is blocked, but i can't reproduce it at will. Also have real diffilculty sometimes shifting into first from second when i'm slowing down such as for a yield sign or in a parking lot. I mentioned this to the service guys at my dealership and they told me that it's not designed to shift into first from second while moving/it's bad for the transmission. Is this true? I mean i'm not driving a low geared truck, and there is so much lugging on the engine if i try to leave it in second at low speeds + there is no power if you need to get moving. They said i should come to a stop before shifting into first and that just seems ridiculous to me. Are they screwing with me?

Yes. Something is wrong with the clutch.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Motronic posted:

Well, 1.8ts turn into piles of poo poo when they aren't maintained properly. So it would have been wise to have gotten a pre purchase inspection beforehand or even now to evaluate whether it's a pit of despair or just something that needs a bit of catch up maintenance.

1 and 2 are cheap and easy to do with basic tools and mechanical knowledge. They are also gravy jobs for shops that will likely end up costing a few hundred dollars to get done.

3 and 4 sound like effect/cause based on what you posted so far. Not knowing what "cleaning" ends up being or resulting in I don't know what to tell you. If it really was cleaned properly and is making a good connection at the TCU it shouldn't need to be cleaned again unless you have a water leak in the cabin. There is also the range sensor to harness plug that could be inspected/cleaned and of course it could be the sensor itself that's bad.

Passats from that year were notorious for a clogged drain in the sunroof that dumped water into the cabin and (of course) soaking the TCU.

http://www.passatworld.com/forums/42-volkswagen-passat-b5-discussion/310125-details-class-action-lawsuit-water-damage.html

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b5/comfort-module-front-seat.htm

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/multi/sunroof-drain-recall-VW-Audi.htm

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
The Jetta and Passat both have by far the most rear seat legroom in their segments.

http://www.cars.com/go/compare/trimCompare.jsp?acodes=USC40VWC041I0,USC40BMC081A0,USC40VWC033D0,USC40FOC122A0

The Jetta has almost as much as a 7 series BMW and the Passat has more.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
So how about the MK7 Golf TDI going back to twist beam axle in the rear for the US market because the new MQB platform apparently puts the urea tank where the rear suspension goes? Seems like a pretty VW thing to do.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Uthor posted:

My buddy drives a Passat (mk7, I believe) with a push start button. We needed to use the accessory power plug. It didn't have any power when the car was off, worked fine with the car running. We were wondering if there's a way to put the car in "ACC" where it would give power to the plug (and windows, etc) without actually starting the engine like in a car that you just start with a key.

We only needed it for like five minutes, so it wasn't a big deal, but just something he never thought of before and didn't have an answer.

Most cars have one of the power plugs powered all the time, the cover will have a battery symbol on it to indicate this, I would be surprised if the Passat didn't.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

RIP Paul Walker posted:

The 2.5 golf is a regular torque converter automatic iirc. That being said, I am not a fan of how VW programs their transmissions - even the brand new cars I drove were a little funky. It's probably fine... Transverse VW automatics usually wait until about 100k to fail (also they may have fixed their issues by now... I haven't researched)

The transverse automatics were Aisin/Toyota units and were fine. The ones VW used didn't fail so much once VW changed their service schedules from "Transmissions have fluid?" to "Well I guess you should change the fluid sometimes like every other loving car."


Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

CommieGIR posted:

The TSI is a fairly new and expensive tech versus a common and proven TDI tech.

Yes, TSI can do it. With immense computerization and highly specialized tech. The TDI can do it mechanically.

Yep. We should all use diesel because it's cheaper and lower tech than a gas engine.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Hey guys here's a reminder that the US market MK7 Diesel Golfs all have beam axles in the rear because the urea tanks take up all the space that the independent rear suspension uses.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

nm posted:

Better buy your car today
http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
(Stop sale in basically all gas VWs starts tommorow)

I rushed over to the VW website to see if the 2.0l 8v engine was affected and was floored to find the 1.4l TSI already in the US replacing it? When did they sneak that engine in?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

CommieGIR posted:

I still want to know: Who else is doing it?

You seem really upset by the possibility that VW was just a lovely company instead of some global industry wide anti-VW conspiracy.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

spog posted:

I think that the description of the issue as a 'defeat device' has been unhelpful as it is not a device (i.e. a separate component), but it is a piece of very specific programming.

We then drift towards a discussion on semantics as to what defines such a 'device' - e.g. if the mapping has a flat spot at the exact rpm that testing takes place, is that a device? If the ECU reduces power when the bonnet is open, or when the car is in neutral, are they 'defeat devices' or 'over-heating protection' and 'low power standby mode'?

You're really suggesting there is some controversy over this when there isn't. "Defeat device" is the termt hat is laid out and defined in the clean air act. The law literally says "guys don't use a defeat device". VW used a defeat device. No one is contesting any of this.

Almost half of Golf sales are GTI/R, because why would anyone buy a regular Golf?

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
You know what you should do if you are a large foreign company with few political friends that has just been caught dead to rights in an enormous fraud poisoning the very air we breath?

Let's now start a public fight with the EPA that will make them look like incompetent fools if they *don't* nail your balls to the wall and make you pay the full penalty and serve every year of your sentence.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/volkswagen-meeting-epa-discuss-diesel-emissions-program/

quote:


Officials from Volkswagen will meet Thursday with the Environmental Protection Agency to explain to regulators how a “temperature conditioning” mode isn’t illegal, Reuters reported (via Automotive News).

“(Auxiliary Emission Control Device) software does not alter emissions levels, but it ensures after a cold start (of the engine) that the catalytic converters quickly reach their working temperature and emissions cleaning takes effect,” VW said, according to Reuters.

In its notification to the automaker Monday, officials from the EPA specifically outlined how a “temperature conditioning” mode, specifically timed to the length of the EPA’s initial tests, reduced emissions up to nine times in cars equipped with VW’s 3-liter diesel engine.

According to Reuters, Volkswagen in Europe admitted that the software U.S. regulators alleged cheated emissions tests was installed in models sold in Europe. Although the EPA said that roughly 10,000 cars in the U.S. could be illegally polluting — above the initial 482,000 small cars — that number is likely larger.

In Europe, where Volkswagen is the biggest automaker, the number could be exponentially higher. Analysts at Barclays told Reuters that the number of affected cars in Europe could be 20 times higher than the number in the U.S.

Volkswagen may face an uphill battle in explaining how the software program isn’t an illegal “defeat device,” designed to fool emissions test. (They may have a problem with credibility right now.)

California Air Resources Board Chairwoman Mary Nichols told Reuters that testing officials routinely saw Volkswagen vehicles cycle into modes to reduce emissions, only to pollute more seconds later.

“It’s almost impossible to explain something like that in any way other than something about the software that controls the operation,” Nichols told Reuters.

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Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

The Casualty posted:

So I'm shopping around for a car at the moment and I came across a used '06 A4 2.0t Quattro with a 6-speed manual and a little over 120,000 miles on it. Bone stock, recently passed CA smog and had an oil change (synthetic of course), the only work it really needs is a fresh set of front tires. All in all, the car looks fantastic (has a tiny door ding and some light scratches but nothing bad). I got to test drive it today and came away very impressed. However, I have some questions for all you experts:

1. The clutch. First, some background, the current owner says he has no clue how many miles are on the current one. He hasn't had it changed, he's the 3rd owner, and he hasn't had the car for very long, relatively speaking. I won't get into his reasons for selling but I'm inclined to believe that he's not trying to push the car off for reliability reasons; it looks and drives great and has a clean title. Clutch lifespan is of course dependent on driving style, but assuming this is the original clutch, should I also reasonably assume that one of these with 120,000 miles is nearing the end of its rope?

The clutch grabs gears fine and I didn't notice any slipping or grinding. The shifter is buttery smooth. However, this clutch pedal requires much less pressure to fully depress than I'm used to, though I had no trouble engaging the gears and smoothly shifting. I guess what I'm wondering is, am I experiencing a typical level of pedal feedback for this car? My old car, an '05 Altima SE-R, had a much, much springier clutch pedal with a ton of pedal feedback, relative to this. I've spent so many years doing leg presses against that springy pedal that other cars' clutch pedals tend to feel mushy or light even if there's no problem, so I figured I'd ask.

2. Reliability going forward. The current owner has recently replaced the ignition coils and fuel filter, and changed fluids regularly. It didn't feel like it needed brakes or suspension work on the test drive, which included a bumpy, hilly street. Are the B7's encountering any big and/or predictable issues at this level of wear?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3366758

For the EA113 2.0T Audi considers it normal to burn through all of its oil between oil change intervals, so maybe you will never need to change the oil!

Here's the link to earlier in the thread.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3298776&pagenumber=61&perpage=40#post395230580

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Nov 9, 2015

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