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Fang
Jul 9, 2001
If you don't think ponderous, clumsy sentence structure loaded with hamfisted thesaurus wankery makes good writing, you're probably just too dumb to read my posts.

/r/iamverysmart

As firearms enthusiasts, we are accustomed to snarling in rage over some grossly ignorant misrepresentation of gun technology on the silver screen. Any technical detail done wrong onscreen will disrupt suspension of disbelief in those familiar with the subject matter, and there is a especially fertile field of folly from which to choose when firearms are the subject.

On the flip side, when television or movies get guns right, it inspires such an outburst of fawning, sobbing relief that many shortcomings may be overlooked. Sure, movie X might have cardboard characters speaking wooden dialogue with pacing and direction that imply ongoing cough syrup abuse in Hollywood, but by God they got the guns right, so that's another blu-ray sale right there.

So instead of just ranting about how movies get guns wrong, let's pair each gun screwup with an example of realism.

For instance, take the longarm/sidearm power gap. In movies and TV, this doesn't exist. Jack Bauer raids the terrorist hideout carrying only a handgun, despite having the opportunity to grab a rifle or shotgun. Every John Woo movie ever made. In fact, there's one movie I saw that is so horrible I can remember no details beyond the fact that at one point the protagonists, armed with their sexy, sexy handguns take out a bunch of baddies armed with rifles...and leave the rifles and their ammo just lying there as they go off in pursuit of further action scenes.

But occasionally things are done right. The hotel shootout scene in Way of the Gun demonstrates how a guy with a rifle, firing from an elevated position, decimates a group of adversaries armed solely with pistols. Later in the same movie, the protagonists pick a rifle and shotgun when heading into a known dangerous situation. Very refreshing.

That's the first example that came to mind because it's a huge pet peeve. What've you got?

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Detective Thompson
Nov 9, 2007

Sammy Davis Jr. Jr. is also in repose.

Bad: Every time the appearance of a Glock is heralded by the sound of a hammer being cocked. Too many offenders to name.

Good: Heat.

gauss
Feb 9, 2001



Thank you for giving me somewhere to post this.


Bad: Final season of Lost now and as well as the "weapon gets moved slightly --> cacophony of charging/racking noises", what really cracks me up/annoys me is that the armorer for the show apparently was a mom and pop operation, because they only have 5 longarms. An SKS, M1, M1 Carbine, FN-FAL, and a Mini-14. Any scene anywhere on the island, no matter if the bearer just arrived or have been hiding out since who knows when, only the same 5 rifles ever seem to show up. (Spoilers.)


Good: There's virtually no gunplay in Shutter Island but DiCaprio still handles a 1903 like he's--well, like he's doing a one-man SWAT raid with a bolt-action. (Try not to faint, Fang.) At one point he unslings the 1903 in one expert, fluid motion without making it showy--but anyone who actually handles 10 pound milsurp rifles can appreciate that whipping one around like that takes some practice and finesse. The dude is just fun to watch handling firearms.

(seen here room clearing my heart )

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!



I always though Tom Cruise did a pretty good job in Collateral.

And of course Equilibrium. Good? Bad? Totally ridiculous? You be the judge. I still love that movie though.

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

Concealment ain't cover.

See: 98% of the movies out there. Interior drywall based walls aren't going to stop a furious fusillade of bullets directed at them and won't protect the jerkoff hiding behind the drywall from getting shot.

Way Of The Gun has a few scenes where they fire through walls as people run out of rooms in an attempt to hit the bad guy through the wall. One of the Steven Segal movies has a scene like that too. It's the one that opens in some Spanish speaking country. A prostitute lulls Steve's partner into complacency, then she whips up a hidden pistol and POW! puts holes in him. She then shuts the door. Steve runs up and perforates the room door and walls, slides open the door, and there's a dead hooker.

blackknight5k
Oct 22, 2008


bad - the sentinel (from 1996-1999 i think) - I just rented the first disk of the first season through netflix because I use to love the show back in the day...my god there is no lack of "THEY HAVE ASSAULT WEAPONS OMG!" or "I HANDLE GUNS SO BADLY!". Also, I find it funny as hell that all of the ARs on the show have 20 rnd mags instead of 30....

Good - Justified seems to do pretty good

The Eyes Have It
Feb 9, 2008

Third Eye Sees All
...snookums

Casual gunplay indoors with no one minding the noise almost has too many examples to list.

On the other hand there was the scene in I think "Snatch" where the guy fires a shot from his handgun indoors and it left everyone holding their ears and grimacing.

Another pair:

Casually flicking squashed bullets off your bulletproof vest is a nicely dramatic gesture also with too many examples to list.

But in Training Day when the bent detectives are setting up/staging the evidence for their raid (robbery), two of them intentionally take a bullet in the vest from the (now dead) target's small-caliber holdout gun. It seems clear from how it goes down that getting shot in a vest is not pleasant and is actually (gasp) risky.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Bad: I love "Criminal Minds" but god drat do we get the Glock hammer-cock sound EVERY loving TIME.

Good: "Blood Diamond" was one of the very few movies I've seen that had press-checks. "Shoot 'em Up" wasn't meant to be taken seriously but had a few good points, also Paul Giamotti was loving hysterical in it so that helps.

Fat Ogre
Dec 31, 2007

Guns don't kill people.

I do.


Bullets and Glass

Bad Movie
Most movies ignore the fact that glass is sharp, it makes gently caress off nasty splinters and that you can't just shrug it off and be just fine.

I can't count the number of movies where they shoot through glass and the bullet happily continues onward in a perfectly straight line as if had hit a wall of saran wrap. And if the protagonist is behind said wall of glass, they can just dust off their shoulders and keep going.

Good Movie
Road to Perdition had a really awesome scene where Tom Hanks shoots out a window and Jude Law's assassin gets his face cut to poo poo by exploding window fragments.

Die Hard and Way of the Gun show why broken glass on the ground during a firefight is a loving horror show.

Bullets and People

Bad Movie
Total Recall has a hilariously stupid scene where Quaid is hiding behind a body and letting it soak up bullets while he is perfectly safe on the other side.

Good Movie
This one was surprising to me. Schindler's List has a scene where a Nazi Lines up a group of Jews and shoots them through the head killing almost all of them with one shot, then walking up to the last one and finishing him off.

It brutally shows that 1)Nazis are assholes and 2) Bullets, even 9mm don't give one hot poo poo about stopping once they hit a body.

Bullets and Cars

Bad Movie
Live Free and Die Hard literally has a cop car get shot up by 5.56 rounds from a helicopter. It gets shot from behind through the trunk, it gets shot through the roof. It gets shot through the sides and yet the car just keeps going and Bruce Willis and Justin Long emerged totally Unscathed from it.

Good Movie
The Godfather has Sonny getting his rear end waxed in a car at a toll booth.
Bonnie and Clyde are made into swiss cheese at the end even though they are in a car.
Alien Nation has a guy hide behind a car and ends up getting greased by a shotgun slug tearing through his guts after going through the car.

Bullets and Stuff

Bad Movie
Live Free and Die Hard, Bruce Willis hides behind a god drat refrigerator door from bullets. Who ever they had as an adviser on that movie should be asked to pick something to hide behind and let people shoot at him, this way he never shits up another movie ever.

I guess in Hollywood refrigerators are made of dwarf star alloy with anti-grav controls in the door because they seem to stop anything shot at them ever, including Nuclear Bombs.

Good Movie
This one is noteworthy because at first it was so outrageous I yelled at the TV "WHAT THE gently caress!" In the Sarah Connor Chronicles she hide behind a Lay-Z-Boy recliner to avoid getting shot by a shotgun or handgun I can't remember. The thing is they make it a point later minutes later to show that she had armored up the back of the chair for the express purpose of hiding behind it in case a terminator showed up at home.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

iyaayas01
Feb 19, 2010

Perry'd


Justified and Magnum Force (second Dirty Harry movie) both feature a dude getting capped through a wall.

Heat, Collateral, Miami Vice (even though it wasn't that great otherwse), and Public Enemies (pretty much any Michael Mann movie with gunplay) because he takes gunfights seriously. For Heat he had all the main actors on the LAPD firing range with live ammunition several times, basically until they could do in real life with live ammo what their characters did in the movie. For Collateral he did the same thing with Tom Cruise, with the addition of having him make deliveries to a busy office without having anyone recognize him as Tom Cruise, since his character's job as an assassin was to get in and get out without being noticed. The "Yo Homie...that my briefcase?" scene is pretty

Also, re: press checks, it is done several times in both Heat and Collateral.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Fat Ogre posted:


Live Free and Die Hard


Live Free and Die Hard

In fairness, absolutely nobody was expecting this movie to be anywhere close to realistic, and as long as it featured Justin Long writhing and screaming because he took a bullet in the leg, I was 100% happy with it.

thermobollocks
Jul 5, 2009

GET A DILLON

Bad: The Matrix had an Uzi spewing .223 brass. Minor, given the rest of the movie, but it bugs me.
Good: The scene in the beginning of Big Jake where the bookish one shoots the new semi-auto wildly, then John Wayne calms down and says "He's had his six shots!" and then out come two more.

JEEVES420
Feb 16, 2005

The world is a mess... and I just need to rule it

heh, this thread makes me realize that the majority of you don't remember movies very well.

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

gauss posted:

Bad: Final season of Lost now and as well as the "weapon gets moved slightly --> cacophony of charging/racking noises", what really cracks me up/annoys me is that the armorer for the show apparently was a mom and pop operation, because they only have 5 longarms. An SKS, M1, M1 Carbine, FN-FAL, and a Mini-14. Any scene anywhere on the island, no matter if the bearer just arrived or have been hiding out since who knows when, only the same 5 rifles ever seem to show up. (Spoilers.)

Lost has always had bad gunplay and sound effects, but they did have M4s and MP5s when the Mercs showed up in an earlier season.

And just for Rent-a-Cop...

Bad everything: Equilibrium

Gun-kata is stupid, ridiculous auto-pistols with weighted magazines so you can reload all fancy is stupid, and the fact that when people get shot they ARE SO loving DUSTY is stupid. Seriously, every time bullets go through people it's like a pound of talcum powder flies off of their body.

Also, in the beginning I don't think one cop gets killed in gunfights. But THEN THE TABLES TURN and not one rebel gets killed in any gunfight and all cops are instantly annihilated.

Also, even if the gunplay were perfect, that movie would be terrible. Movies like Equilibrium are the reason why people think sci-fi is awful.

Thankfully, some decent sci-fi movies came out last year which may help people realize that not all sci-fi is Equilibrium and Ultraviolet and Aeon Flux.

fffffffuuuck...

[/whiny rant]

edit: wasn't it weird how the Matrix clearly didn't care about realistic guns (why should they anyway?) and yet they had press checks?

Uncle Caveman
Jun 16, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.


Regardless of genre, Ultraviolet may be the single worst movie I've ever seen.

Good
Firefly/Serenity: Guns don't make noise in outer space

Bad
Firefly/Serenity: LASER REVOLVER PEW PEW

welcome 2 Clown Town
Aug 1, 2006



risen from the garbage. the scum of the hive cluster - alive. i am it. i have ascended.
i am scrunt

attributed to scrunt but not actually possible as scrunts not capable of self awareness or rational thought


Bad: Any movie where someone gets hit by a bullet and then flies any number of feet backwards. You might collapse backwards or maybe spin a little (as a reaction), but unless you get hit by something fuckoff huge, you are probably not going anywhere (Newtonian physics, yay!).

Good: I always thought both Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan had very realistic examples of gun usage (yay accuracy!). Examples include: weapon jams, line of fire, sweeping friendlies, leading a target, actually having to reload when you need to, weight of ammunition, recoil, bullet penetration, etc. As far as I can remember, people even respond properly when hit with various types of ammunition and explosives.

Fat Ogre
Dec 31, 2007

Guns don't kill people.

I do.


If you want a bad gun movie Death Sentence is loving awful.

Shotguns that fling people across the room. Buckshot that cuts 6 inch diameter holes in anything that it hits.

The only good part of that movie was that it showed you don't defend your family with a bat. You will get your rear end killed when a person shows up with a gun. And it showed a family getting killed because of it.


The Strangers is one of those movies where a gun would have solved 99% of the problems with the movie and sure enough when the protagonists find one they hole up in a closet to wait out the night. Problem is when their friend comes over to check on them without yelling out. He walks upto the closet they are hiding in and gets killed by them laying in wait for the killers that had been loving with them the whole movie. They freak out drop the gun and run off into the night to get killed later...

I just like how it showed part of the 4 rules of knowing your target before firing.

Mr. 47
Jul 8, 2008

Well, I guess I'll just go fuck myself, then.

Guns in cars.

Bad
Everything where someone gets shot in a car.

Good
I'm sorry, but I don't remember which season or episode of The Sopranos. A guy gets whacked in a car (point blank, back of the head) and the shooter reacts... well, exactly like you would expect if an explosion deafened you in a confined space.

Black Stormy
Apr 1, 2003



Fat Ogre posted:

The Strangers is one of those movies where a gun would have solved 99% of the problems with the movie and sure enough when the protagonists find one they hole up in a closet to wait out the night. Problem is when their friend comes over to check on them without yelling out. He walks upto the closet they are hiding in and gets killed by them laying in wait for the killers that had been loving with them the whole movie. They freak out drop the gun and run off into the night to get killed later...

I just like how it showed part of the 4 rules of knowing your target before firing.

Yea, but if I were in that situation I would have shot anything that moved too.

Filmiotic
Jan 5, 2008

A man of two kinds of shootin'

Just.. Just watch these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4vyuNY8v1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z292aiLvyzM
So much good and so much terrible in one movie.

Constructing constructive conversations.


Filmiotic fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 17, 2010

Railing Kill
Nov 14, 2008

Computer:
Erase this entire post.

NosmoKing posted:

Concealment ain't cover.

This. Forever.

Good: Saving Private Ryan. Some jackboots get mowed down at the top of a stairwell by Mellish as he shoots through the wall. In general, the film shows what works for cover and what doesn't.

Bad: every action movie ever made. Concealment is one thing, let alone cover, but so many films have shots bouncing off railings and bullshit all over the place. Every lame action movie has the obligatory factory/warehouse that is almost entirely metal inside and out. Where the gently caress are all those rounds going? Even if the goons are inept enough to hit nothing but the railing the good guy is running past, those bullets don't just hit the railing, make a "pa-TWANGGG" sound, and vanish. They'd be bouncing all over the drat place.

There are two Mythbusters episodes that come to mind: one about trying to get bullets to ricochet back to the shooter by making 3 90-degree bounces (Spoiler: fat chance). Another is the one about shooting into the air and having the bullet come back to earth to kill someone. Movies do dumb poo poo with bullet physics all the time, and I'm glad those guys address it in a fun way.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Railing Kill posted:

There are two Mythbusters episodes that come to mind: one about trying to get bullets to ricochet back to the shooter by making 3 90-degree bounces (Spoiler: fat chance). Another is the one about shooting into the air and having the bullet come back to earth to kill someone. Movies do dumb poo poo with bullet physics all the time, and I'm glad those guys address it in a fun way.

Mythbusters doing a gun myth that isn't either:

A: Retardedly unsafe
B: Just plain wrong

is pretty rare, take most things they say with a grain of salt.

Fat Ogre
Dec 31, 2007

Guns don't kill people.

I do.


The whole shooting out a lock episode pissed me off so bad.

It is like they go out of their way to be loving morons.

They shoot the lock instead of the god damned latch the lock is on. Which is going to be harder to break? Hardened steel or galvanized sheet metal bolted onto the door?

I love Mythbusters but it has been awhile since they did an episode where I wasn't ready to throw something at them.

At least they aren't Deadliest Warrior bad yet.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Bad: Saving Private Ryan. I was watching this one last night and thinking about stuff like this. Yes, on the whole it wasn't terrible, but there are a few things that really stand out. One of my biggest peeves is that the US army was apparently using a black powder loading for their cartridges in Normandy. I don't know if this was due to some funky blanks they were using or if it was a decision for atmosphere or what, but more than once you will have 2 guys fire 3 rounds each or something and leave the area they're in a very cloudy, smoky mess. This is especially egregious in the scene right after they make it off the beach when they clear the first bunker (the one they shoot the guys running out of, not the one they flamethrower).

More Bad: Enemy at the Gates, AKA "Century Arms Catalog: The Movie." Every single loving gun in this movie except for one or two MGs is straight out of Century's stock ca. 2002 or so. Every Russian in the world has a m91/30. Every German in the world has a RC K98k. Sniper rifles? Look closely and all are clearly repros built off of those. I think there is a single belt fed MG in the whole film and one Mp40. We're just going to gloss over the plain old stupid poo poo, like a team of four snipers deciding to clear a four story department store to look for a single pair of dogtags off a supposedly dead enemy sniper. Oh yeah, and apparently lovely sheet metal (like found in duct work) will stop rifle rounds.

Good:

Shockingly enough, Death Wish 3. Yes, this movie is crazy for every other second that it is on the screen and has all of the gunplay realism of the Doom movie. That said, it's the only movie to ever feature a realistic depiction of reloading cartridges, and for that it gets a little love.

televiper
Feb 12, 2007

WE'RE ONTO YOU.

It's been a while since I've seen it, but wasn't there a part towards the beginning of Enemy at the Gates where a Russian Commissar or whatever summarily executes some dudes with an SMG when they start to retreat?

I could be thinking of another movie.

Oh, also, Angels with Dirty Faces had a couple of shots where Cagney was reloading his revolver, that was kinda neat.

televiper
Feb 12, 2007

WE'RE ONTO YOU.

Q!=E

Uncle Caveman
Jun 16, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.


Cyrano4747 posted:

More Bad: Enemy at the Gates
Not to mention that one scene with the really improbable display of penetration.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Uncle Caveman posted:

Not to mention that one scene with the really improbable display of penetration.

fuuuuuuuuuuck

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Uncle Caveman posted:

Not to mention that one scene with the really improbable display of penetration.

Oddly enough that's probably one of the only parts of that movie that's actually based somewhere in historical fact. I forget her name, but sometime around '42 there WAS a female sniper operating in the same area as Zeitsev, and they DID have an affair. At least, so Vassily claimed later on.

There's been more than a little research done on women in the red army and so-called "front marriages" that shows that, guess what, put women in combat units that are NEVER taken out of the front line and are generally experiencing an apocalyptic "everyone here is going to die before victory" type campaign and, yes, people will gently caress on occasion.

Uncle Caveman
Jun 16, 2006

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.


Well by "improbable" I meant more along the lines of "the only two attractive people in the Red Army bumping uglies in a crowded room without waking anyone up"

but then snipers are masters of stealth

JEEVES420
Feb 16, 2005

The world is a mess... and I just need to rule it

Cyrano4747 posted:

More Bad: Enemy at the Gates, AKA "Century Arms Catalog: The Movie." Every single loving gun in this movie except for one or two MGs is straight out of Century's stock ca. 2002 or so. Every Russian in the world has a m91/30. Every German in the world has a RC K98k. Sniper rifles? Look closely and all are clearly repros built off of those. I think there is a single belt fed MG in the whole film and one Mp40.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Enemy_at_the_Gates

Eat This Glob
Jan 14, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

televiper posted:

It's been a while since I've seen it, but wasn't there a part towards the beginning of Enemy at the Gates where a Russian Commissar or whatever summarily executes some dudes with an SMG when they start to retreat?

I could be thinking of another movie.

Yeah, I saw this a few weeks ago. After they got off the boat (where another couple of dudes jumped into the Volga and got shot for it) and were issued their Mosins in alternating fashion, a group retreated and got lit up slow-mo style by a PPSh (I think).

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006




More or less like I said - every one of those MGs has about 3 seconds of screen time. Also, the pictures from the variations on the Mp38/40 are all from the same sequence. The PPsH is only in the scene with the retreating soldiers.

Forgot about the pistols, though. The TT33 and Nagant were also available through Century at that time!

The Luger never comes out of its holster that I recall. Chances are it's rubber.

Fremry
Nov 4, 2003


Fat Ogre posted:

The whole shooting out a lock episode pissed me off so bad.

It is like they go out of their way to be loving morons.

They shoot the lock instead of the god damned latch the lock is on. Which is going to be harder to break? Hardened steel or galvanized sheet metal bolted onto the door?

The show is about testing a myth, not "making it work". In movies, you always see someone shoot the lock and then they gain access. That's the myth they were testing.

Also, in Lost there are definitely AKs. I remember them because they were low-cap AKs with the 10 round mags and missing compensators.

Ygolonac
Nov 26, 2007

pre:
*************
CLUTCH  NIXON
*************

The Hero We Need


The Gauntlet (1977, Clint Eastwood) certainly show that bullets will pass through such obstacles as a house, car body and a bus.

Law & Order: Criminal Intent, in syndication on MyTV, recently had an episode that showed someone reloading .357 Magnum for less power. (The plot-point was that by down-loading, it would be safe enough to shoot someone in the head and only cause a coma, for organ-harvesting purposes.)(C'mon, it's L&O; at least they didn't show the killer buying special "cop-wounding" rounds for the purpose.)

Ygolonac fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 17, 2010

Fat Ogre
Dec 31, 2007

Guns don't kill people.

I do.


Fremry posted:

The show is about testing a myth, not "making it work". In movies, you always see someone shoot the lock and then they gain access. That's the myth they were testing.

Its a bullshit Myth. You can shoot the lock off something in that if the latch breaks the lock falls off.

Yet Mythbusters goes out of their way to be mouth breathing bike seat sniffing retards about a myth.

Shoot the lock off must mean actually SHOOTING A loving LOCK hurf durf.


Big Trouble in Little China he shoots the latch

Pvt. Public
Sep 9, 2004

I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.

DJExile posted:

Mythbusters doing a gun myth that isn't either:

A: Retardedly unsafe
B: Just plain wrong

is pretty rare, take most things they say with a grain of salt.

The chief one that I remember is them trying to recreate the shot of that sniper from Vietnam where he shot another sniper through his scope. They trotted out all these variable power scopes that have so many lenses getting a shot through one is nearly impossible. Had they bothered to source an original scope the opposiing sniper might have been using (not terribly difficult), they would have had a much easier time recreating the shot. I think someone even showed this by doing it correctly, though I don't recall where I saw it.

Bored As Fuck
Jan 1, 2006
Be polite. Be professional. But be prepared to PARTAYYY!

Fun Shoe

Fremry posted:

The show is about testing a myth, not "making it work". In movies, you always see someone shoot the lock and then they gain access. That's the myth they were testing.

Also, in Lost there are definitely AKs. I remember them because they were low-cap AKs with the 10 round mags and missing compensators.

Yeah. And in one episode's final moments, you have Locke load up a G3 set up like an MSG-1 sniper rifle, and then they never show it again, ever

I love(d) that show, but gently caress, whatever company provided the armory and whichever company or armorer or trainer provided the training, or lack thereof, for the actors, needs to be loving shot.

OH HOLKY gently caress THEY HAVE M4s AND THEY'RE SHOOTING AT US, LET'S HIDE BEHIND THIS WHITE PICKET FENCE :whew: THAT WAS CLOSE

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Pvt. Public posted:

The chief one that I remember is them trying to recreate the shot of that sniper from Vietnam where he shot another sniper through his scope. They trotted out all these variable power scopes that have so many lenses getting a shot through one is nearly impossible. Had they bothered to source an original scope the opposiing sniper might have been using (not terribly difficult), they would have had a much easier time recreating the shot. I think someone even showed this by doing it correctly, though I don't recall where I saw it.

In all fairness they came back and re-did it with a repro PU scope and, surprise surprise, it worked.

On the other hand, the "oh poo poo we've got snipers mad at us on the internet " banter that they had going on for the whole loving show made me change the channel at least four times before they got to actually shooting the scope.

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Pvt. Public
Sep 9, 2004

I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.

Cyrano4747 posted:

In all fairness they came back and re-did it with a repro PU scope and, surprise surprise, it worked.

On the other hand, the "oh poo poo we've got snipers mad at us on the internet " banter that they had going on for the whole loving show made me change the channel at least four times before they got to actually shooting the scope.

Ah, that must be when they re-did it that I am remembering. I knew I had watched someone do it correctly.

And yeah, I can understand what you are saying. Anytime they go back to re-do a myth they seem to just throw in stupid remarks all the time. I really think they should just let KAri, Grant and Tory run the show. They seem to have a lot more fun and put more thought into things.

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