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DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

bitprophet posted:

Started Edgedancer today and it's fun. Tho been a bit since the last main series book so I have naturally forgotten a lot of the details. This Darkness fellow chasing Lift for example, is a Skybreaker and I have zero recollection of this order, or for that matter just how many "evil" Shardbearers there are at this point.

But who cares, Lift is a joy to watch as she idiots her way around the place and carries on a Traditional Sanderson Snappy Dialogue with her spren. Is it high art? no, but it is entertaining and makes me smile and I need that right now.

He's not just a Skybreaker, he's THE Skybreaker, Nale, the Herald of his order (though he's also a true Skybreaker that bonded a spren I think, the only one to do so) and kept his order going through the Recreance when all the others disbanded (and murdered any new people close to forming a Nahel bond)

Their powers are Gravitation and Division, so they have the gravity flipping in common with Windrunners like Kaladin, and turn stuff into dust I think.

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Space Butler
Dec 3, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Evil Fluffy posted:

I'd be stunned if nobody from the Waxx and Wayne series ends up in Stormlight since those two timelines overlap. There could be kandra already present and it's unlikely anyone would know unless kandra can't be worldhoppers due to the nature of what they are.

There's a word of Brandon somewhere that there is a Kandra in the Stormlight books, but nothing on who it is. Demoux from era 1 is one of the guys looking for Hoid in the purelake interlude too. Someone's going to show up sooner or later.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Space Butler posted:

There's a word of Brandon somewhere that there is a Kandra in the Stormlight books, but nothing on who it is. Demoux from era 1 is one of the guys looking for Hoid in the purelake interlude too. Someone's going to show up sooner or later.

I forgot he was around and if he's not the kandra in question then I'm curious as to how the hell he's still alive considering how much time passed unless simply using the pools as a worldhopper results in some minor form of ascension that provides a much longer lifespan.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

Space Butler posted:

There's a word of Brandon somewhere that there is a Kandra in the Stormlight books, but nothing on who it is. Demoux from era 1 is one of the guys looking for Hoid in the purelake interlude too. Someone's going to show up sooner or later.

I think it's Rial, that snarky ex-bridgeman/bodyguard of Dalinar that appears with surprising frequency in Oathbringer. A kandra would want to be close to power and Dalinar's new bodyguard would be a nice position for gathering intel.

The Gardenator
May 4, 2007


Yams Fan

I am rereading the first mistborn trilogy to see if I can remember who Demoux is. The first book was ok, but am now struggling through the Well of Ascension. This is his worst book due to the mopey relationship angst with Elend and Vin. I cannot wait for the koloss attack and Zane's betrayal. The scene with Sazed and Marsh was not as intense as I remember it. I'm imagining that Zane is literally Billy Zane's character from the Titanic movie and its helping a bit with reading.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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The Gardenator posted:

I am rereading the first mistborn trilogy to see if I can remember who Demoux is. The first book was ok, but am now struggling through the Well of Ascension. This is his worst book due to the mopey relationship angst with Elend and Vin. I cannot wait for the koloss attack and Zane's betrayal. The scene with Sazed and Marsh was not as intense as I remember it. I'm imagining that Zane is literally Billy Zane's character from the Titanic movie and its helping a bit with reading.

Demoux is the minor officer in Elend's army who starts preaching the words of Kelsier in Well of Ascension, becoming a proto-priest of the Church of the Survivor.

Space Butler
Dec 3, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

Evil Fluffy posted:

I forgot he was around and if he's not the kandra in question then I'm curious as to how the hell he's still alive considering how much time passed unless simply using the pools as a worldhopper results in some minor form of ascension that provides a much longer lifespan.

Some kind of seventeenth shard shenanigans according to another WoB. He's an atium misting iirc, so there's going to be some kind of ridiculous combination of powers going on there.

Questions about Rial have been RAFOd, so it could well be.

Daric
Dec 23, 2007

Shawn:
Do you really want to know my process?

Lassiter:
Absolutely.

Shawn:
Well it starts with a holla! and ends with a Creamsicle.


I'm slowly building a gym in my garage and couldn't think of a better decal for my platform than the Bridge Four glyph.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Build a bridge and run that around instead

That's sweet though

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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TEAM-MATE


Looks great, good for you!


Space Butler posted:

Some kind of seventeenth shard shenanigans according to another WoB. He's an atium misting iirc, so there's going to be some kind of ridiculous combination of powers going on there.

Questions about Rial have been RAFOd, so it could well be.

He'd only need a spike from an atium ferring to get the same access to immortality that the Lord Ruler had. But I think that's not the easiest spike to get.

KKKLIP ART
Sep 3, 2004



Doing a re-read of the Stormlight series, and man there are a lot of really nice winks and nods about future events going on, along with a ton of things I forgot. I am really enjoying it, even if I still don't really get a lot of the bigger Cosmere stuff other than Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. I miss a lot of the stuff about the specific heralds still walking around, like I totally didn't get that there were some at the assassination of Gavilar and a few other spots. I also didn't know that the guys looking for Hoid in the interlude were more than likely planet-hoppers too. I really wish I was more beefy on the background lore because I bet there are a ton more winks and nods here and there than I am picking up.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

KKKLIP ART posted:

Doing a re-read of the Stormlight series, and man there are a lot of really nice winks and nods about future events going on, along with a ton of things I forgot. I am really enjoying it, even if I still don't really get a lot of the bigger Cosmere stuff other than Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. I miss a lot of the stuff about the specific heralds still walking around, like I totally didn't get that there were some at the assassination of Gavilar and a few other spots. I also didn't know that the guys looking for Hoid in the interlude were more than likely planet-hoppers too. I really wish I was more beefy on the background lore because I bet there are a ton more winks and nods here and there than I am picking up.

The people looking for Hoid are all named characters in other Cosmere books too.

The Gardenator
May 4, 2007


Yams Fan

Once Zane dies in Well of Ascension, the book picks up and has the usually Sanderson avalanche. Hero of Ages was much better overall.

One thing that was confusing, Kelsier meets someone named Hoid in the Final Empire, then meets Hoid again in the Well but doesnt recognize him? Also, if that was Hoid both times, why did he leave and then try to come back again and why did he not pick up the mistborn nugget the first time coming through the perpendicularly if so?

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010



The Gardenator posted:

Once Zane dies in Well of Ascension, the book picks up and has the usually Sanderson avalanche. Hero of Ages was much better overall.

One thing that was confusing, Kelsier meets someone named Hoid in the Final Empire, then meets Hoid again in the Well but doesnt recognize him? Also, if that was Hoid both times, why did he leave and then try to come back again and why did he not pick up the mistborn nugget the first time coming through the perpendicularly if so?

Hoid was disguised (both times), so there isn't really a way Kelsier could have recognized him. As for the second bit, I'm pretty sure the well didn't serve as a perpendicularity until it was "full". Hoid was using the pit's perpendicularity before that. It's likely he didn't know the wells location, or didn't know that those nuggets were there until everything happened there.

The Gardenator
May 4, 2007


Yams Fan

Taffer posted:

Hoid was disguised (both times), so there isn't really a way Kelsier could have recognized him. As for the second bit, I'm pretty sure the well didn't serve as a perpendicularity until it was "full". Hoid was using the pit's perpendicularity before that. It's likely he didn't know the wells location, or didn't know that those nuggets were there until everything happened there.

I'm going to have to reread secret history, I now recall Hoid mentioning that the pits were another perpendicularly now that you jogged my memory.

The first mistborn trilogy really benefits from the secret history novella. There were scenes in hero of ages that were confusing on first read.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





As far as mistborn series two goes, I'm still a the real Mare died before book 1, and the one Kelsier knew was Paalm impersonating her truther. It makes the arc in series 2 better, especially if the main villain of mistborn overall ends up being Harmony

smertrioslol
Apr 4, 2010


Tunicate posted:

As far as mistborn series two goes, I'm still a the real Mare died before book 1, and the one Kelsier knew was Paalm impersonating her truther. It makes the arc in series 2 better, especially if the main villain of mistborn overall ends up being Harmony

I would not be surprised if Harmony ends up doing horrible poo poo for the greater good.

wizzardstaff
Apr 6, 2018



Iím rereading Elantris again eight years later to see how it holds up against my familiarity with the rest of the Cosmere. And unfortunately itís not doing well so far. Sarene feels like an early first draft of Shallan (and Raoden of Elend). The religious conflict between Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath feels dry and soulless, like someone is narrating a religious victory in Civ 4. And there are so drat many Significant Capital Letters.

I know itís his early work but Iím still surprised at how rough it is in comparison.

Anshu
Jan 9, 2019



smertrioslol posted:

I would not be surprised if Harmony ends up doing horrible poo poo for the greater good.

I mean, arguably he already has.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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wizzardstaff posted:

Iím rereading Elantris again eight years later to see how it holds up against my familiarity with the rest of the Cosmere. And unfortunately itís not doing well so far. Sarene feels like an early first draft of Shallan (and Raoden of Elend). The religious conflict between Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath feels dry and soulless, like someone is narrating a religious victory in Civ 4. And there are so drat many Significant Capital Letters.

I know itís his early work but Iím still surprised at how rough it is in comparison.

It's only saving grace is that Hrathen is really good. On several levels.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




Anshu posted:

I mean, arguably he already has.

yeah that's basically wax's whole storyline

Artonos
Dec 3, 2018


Tunicate posted:

As far as mistborn series two goes, I'm still a the real Mare died before book 1, and the one Kelsier knew was Paalm impersonating her truther. It makes the arc in series 2 better, especially if the main villain of mistborn overall ends up being Harmony

I don't think you have to describe yourself as a truther. That's exactly how it was supposed to be read I'm pretty sure.

Edit: doh, I completely misread the spoiler. Yes you're a truther and that's not what you're supposed to get from the book.

Artonos fucked around with this message at 12:53 on May 27, 2020

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES

Exciting Lemon

Who would have possibly given a Kandra the order to do that? Preservation couldn't and that doesn't seem like something Ruin had the ability to do directly, unless he tricked a nobleman/LR to order one of his Kandra to do it.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

M_Gargantua posted:

Who would have possibly given a Kandra the order to do that? Preservation couldn't and that doesn't seem like something Ruin had the ability to do directly, unless he tricked a nobleman/LR to order one of his Kandra to do it.

The only way it makes sense is if Preservation did it because they, like Odium, can see (almost all) the infinite possibilities of the future and saw their and Ruin's mutual destruction and the creation of Harmony as the only option to preserve Scadrial. Even then that's a hell of a lot of stretching to get to that point and considering Cultivation's gamble with Dalinar, it'd still be a huge risk on Preservation's part.

Ruin wouldn't have any reason to do so because even if the Lord Ruler remained in place, Preservation's power was still waning and sooner or later it was going to give out and he'd be free to sweep aside the world.


It's not "Varys is a Merman" levels of out there but it's definitely out there a good ways.

smertrioslol posted:

I would not be surprised if Harmony ends up doing horrible poo poo for the greater good.

In theory, they'd also commit horrific acts for the greater evil as well. Though I suspect "the cosmere is on its way to a sublime and perfect utopia that ends in stagnation" is far less likely than horrible things taking place.

smertrioslol
Apr 4, 2010


eke out posted:

yeah that's basically wax's whole storyline

Guess I need to reread those books, itís been awhile. I donít remember it being particularly egregious. I was thinking more Cosmere level consequences.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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eke out posted:

yeah that's basically wax's whole storyline

It's a bit more complicated, isn't it? What did Harmony do?

He sent Wax a pretend girlfriend that he was supposed to fall in love with, who would then get herself killed to get Wax to move back to Elendel. The pretend girlfriend actually wouldn't even die, or suffer any lasting injuries. In theory, all he did was make suffer Wax a big psychological trauma, which is very much not nice, but also not necessarily outright evil. Even good guys can do bad things, like Wayne killing that one guy. But Harmony is certainly far from an all benevolent god like the Christian one.

That said, in comparison, he looks pretty good so far. Of course there's no competition with Odium's "let's kill all humans on this planet, except these few in one city whose ruler agreed to help me kill all other humans" policy in terms of evilness. Ruin was in the same league, and Preservation would have been happy with the Lord Ruler ruler for all eternity if only he would preserve the status quo, however bad that status quo was. Autonomy just decided to shut down interplanetary travel between Taldain and the rest of the Cosmere, trapping Taldain's people on this less than ideal world and depriving them of visitors and traders. Cultivation doesn't do much at all, except perhaps giving Taravangian his boon (which might pay off in the fight against Odium in the long run, but has helped the bad guys short term at least), and giving Dalinar a careful pruning, which admittedly worked out very well. Endowment similarly doesn't do much except revive certain people with big powers, which again went well with Lightsong, but the overall system of the Court of the Gods doesn't strike me as the best way to organize a society.

Harmony at least is a lot more concerned with nurturing the humans on his world. Even when he worries that he made the Elendel basin too fertile, he worries that they get complacent, he's not thinking they need to endure hardship for hardship's sake. And he has agent all around working to keep things from getting bad. Whether he actually has the foresight and wisdom that his actions benefits the people is another question, and learning more about Harmony's actions is one of several reasons I would have preferred Lost Metal over Rythm of War.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




Torrannor posted:

It's a bit more complicated, isn't it? What did Harmony do?

He sent Wax a pretend girlfriend that he was supposed to fall in love with, who would then get herself killed to get Wax to move back to Elendel. The pretend girlfriend actually wouldn't even die, or suffer any lasting injuries. In theory, all he did was make suffer Wax a big psychological trauma, which is very much not nice, but also not necessarily outright evil. Even good guys can do bad things, like Wayne killing that one guy. But Harmony is certainly far from an all benevolent god like the Christian one.

Yeah, while I don't disagree with your broader point here, the question was whether harmony does horrible poo poo for the greater good, and I think that part -- depriving Wax of choice and manipulating his emotions by setting him up with "Lessie" and then "killing her" to move him around like a chess piece so that he'll ultimately do what Harmony wants him to do -- pretty much counts.

of course it's not remotely as bad as the poo poo that basically every other god has done in this setting, you're definitely right about that part, but it's a pretty dark sign if he's willing to do things like this before poo poo even gets real (and poo poo really hasn't Gotten Real for harmony yet in any way, we're still in the extremely early stages of his authority being challenged)

like, so far, Harmony's biggest thematic failing is that he's completely willing to deprive people of all choice if it's necessary for his plans, and we see the damage this causes with Paalm and with how completely hosed up all that emotional manipulation left Wax. maybe he'll get better, and obviously he had good reasons to do what he did, but i think we're supposed to be worried about the question "Just how far will he go?" right now, especially given the long history of Shards severely loving with good people

eke out fucked around with this message at 13:11 on May 27, 2020

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





Torrannor posted:

It's a bit more complicated, isn't it? What did Harmony do?He sent Wax a pretend girlfriend that he was supposed to fall in love with, who would then get herself killed to get Wax to move back to Elendel. The pretend girlfriend actually wouldn't even die, or suffer any lasting injuries. In theory, all he did was make suffer Wax a big psychological trauma, which is very much not nice, but also not necessarily outright evil.

Deliberately forcing someone to kill the person they love most in the world is absolutely evil as gently caress, the fact that harmony forced it on Wax twice - and instead of apologizing, justified his actions by saying that he could see the future and knew how it would turn out - is - on a personal level - one of the most viciously, unfathomably evil things we've seen a character do to another. The fact that Lessie didn't want to do it, but Harmony - a god who has the ability to puppeteer her at will - forced her into it - is also coercive as hell..


quote:

That said, in comparison, he looks pretty good so far. Of course there's no competition with Odium's "let's kill all humans on this planet, except these few in one city whose ruler agreed to help me kill all other humans" policy in terms of evilness.

we haven't actually seen odium's actual objective. Some of odium's enemies have said he wants to do that, but odium himself hasn't (and in fact, that insane fused Moash talks with is pissed off that they've been repeatedly shot down on their personal 'kill all humans' idea


Here's the reddit post of the Paalm theory

eke out
Feb 24, 2013




Tunicate posted:

Here's the reddit post of the Paalm theory

i hadn't heard this before and it's neat, thanks

also lol sanderson is in the replies RAFOing everything about Mare, so there's definitely some smoke regarding her identity even if nothing's confirmed

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010


Tunicate posted:

[

we haven't actually seen odium's actual objective. Some of odium's enemies have said he wants to do that, but odium himself hasn't (and in fact, that insane fused Moash talks with is pissed off that they've been repeatedly shot down on their personal 'kill all humans' idea


Here's the reddit post of the Paalm theory

I'd guess Odium only cares about killing the other shards, and either doesn't want to kill all humans, or just doesn't care about killing all humans.

it's also possible that since the humans on roshar are from (presumably) odiums own world he feels some degree of kinship or responsibility there?

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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

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Tunicate posted:

we haven't actually seen odium's actual objective. Some of odium's enemies have said he wants to do that, but odium himself hasn't (and in fact, that insane fused Moash talks with is pissed off that they've been repeatedly shot down on their personal 'kill all humans' idea


Here's the reddit post of the Paalm theory

Odium is above all pragmatic. And as far as I can tell, his main goal is to become the undisputed, most powerful being in the Cosmere. And the first step is getting rid of his peers, meaning the other shards must die, in a way that doesn't allow them to be brought back again. Killing humans who don't pose a threat to him serves no purpose and might just wast power he needs to fight the other shards, so he left the people of Sel alone after splintering Devotion and Dominion.

It's a bit different in Roshar. Something holds him there, and I'm not 100% sure even Odium knows exactly what, other than that he's aware that Dalinar can release him from said hold. In any case, killing your forced labor supply, and potential recruits in the midst of an ongoing war is very much not the pragmatic thing to do, not to mention that he can't spare fused or parsh to exterminate the humans under his control, so of course he shot that idea down.

But his bargain with Taravangian is pretty explicit. He will spare all people of the city of Karbaranth, as well as their spouses and family. Everybody else is fair game, and I could imagine him being not very fond of the humans who thwarted his attempts to escape the Oathpact for thousands of years. But in any case, even if he wouldn't immediately exterminate all Rosharan humans if he got free, we still don't know what odium would do once he kills all other shards. He expresses his "passions" shard mostly through encompassing hate after all, and at best he will be an evil god ruling over a probably very hosed up mankind. At worst, he decides to get rid of humans like Ruin attempted.



Edit: Also, thanks a lot for the Paalm theory! There's a very, very interesting Word of Brandon about Kelsier that would have been helpful to know in a recent discussion:

quote:

ďNot a lot of people pick up on this, but Kelsier is actually a psychopath. He likes to kill people. He takes pleasure and joy in it.Ē

Torrannor fucked around with this message at 21:46 on May 27, 2020

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