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Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Mistborn Era 2: Harmony is the Supreme Kai. They come across as extraordinarily enlightened and powerful at first -- and they legitimately are. As time goes on, however, we learn that they're relative newcomers to the divinity gang and that there's a lot of moving parts in ancient plots that they are furiously trying to figure out.

Stormlight: Honor is Daikaioh.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Mar 19, 2021

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Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

Potato Salad posted:

Mistborn Era 2: Harmony is the Supreme Kai. They come across as extraordinarily enlightened and powerful at first -- and they legitimately are. As time goes on, however, we learn that they're relative newcomers to the divinity gang and that there's a lot of moving parts in ancient plots that they are furiously trying to figure out.

Stormlight: Honor is Daikaioh.

Professor Spatula
Apr 16, 2007


Started a Mistborn reread (but I remember almost nothing). I felt so dumb when within 2 pages I understood the Lord of Scars reference from RoW.

insider
Feb 22, 2007

A secret room... always my favourite room in a house.

NikkolasKing posted:

I appreciate the need to skip ahead a bit, to move along o everyone having a more established footing, but I'm really bugged by the total lack of interest so far in the fact they had two Heralds to interrogate. That had to be one of the biggest and most intriguing ending points from Oathbringer. I figured they'd get away but no, they were cornered and brought in and undoubtedly have infinite cool things to tell our heroes.

I'm on like Chapter 16 or something and they were mentioned precisely once I'm pretty sure and only in passing. There's been no real account of talking to them, we totally skipped far ahead of whatever discussion did take place, and they haven't been seen in the book yet.

I'm enjoying RoW it's just...weird. I had very few specific wants for this book, I was just excited to see whatever Sanderson did. But thus far, the one thing I was super looking forward to has been totally forgotten.

It's not really forgotten but Brandon kind of hand waves it away IMO. It also bothered me.

Spoilers for later in the book:

Jasnah has interrogated them a bunch but mostly says they are either uncooperative or don't remember things.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


Latest weekly update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd9cV0S_qXw

Skyward 3 Draft 4.0 at 92% which he thinks he'll finish tonight and plans to start the final 5.0 polish draft on Friday. Plus some questions about what people want for leatherbounds at which point I tuned out because nice as those are they are PRICEY.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!



Secret History question: Is the idea that if Kelsier kept walking and following that glowing cord, that he'd eventually get to Elantris?

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




I don't think we know for sure exactly where that comes from.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





RoW question
This is more real world history question but is the account flashback Eshonai gives of how the Listeners fought among themselves based on anything in real world history? Just like how it's highly ritualized and only involves a couple dozen people dying at most?

Olesh
Aug 4, 2008

Why did the circus close?

A long, chilling list of animal rights violations.

NikkolasKing posted:

RoW question
This is more real world history question but is the account flashback Eshonai gives of how the Listeners fought among themselves based on anything in real world history? Just like how it's highly ritualized and only involves a couple dozen people dying at most?

I don't have explicit sources for you, but here's even a handy-dandy wikipedia article that might lead you towards some information. I remember the topic coming up as described, in an anthropology course I took way back when, but I can't speak to how much of that is rooted in historical evidence versus more modern speculation.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



there's also a fair amount of 'what if our best guy duels your best guy instead of us all fighting?' throughout the ancient world, which probably makes a lot of sense before professional armies exist when you're relying on nobility that have all the good gear

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

eke out posted:

there's also a fair amount of 'what if our best guy duels your best guy instead of us all fighting?' throughout the ancient world, which probably makes a lot of sense before professional armies exist when you're relying on nobility that have all the good gear

David and Goliath is a notable example from the judeochristian tradition

And yeah, standing armies weren't common. Even the American Civil War had "oh you rustled up several hundred men? Ok you get to be a general of them" with no qualifications for the quality of the men or their leader.

eke out
Feb 24, 2013



DarkHorse posted:

David and Goliath is a notable example from the judeochristian tradition

And yeah, standing armies weren't common. Even the American Civil War had "oh you rustled up several hundred men? Ok you get to be a general of them" with no qualifications for the quality of the men or their leader.

yeah see also: a great deal of dueling in the Iliad. let the rich guys who can afford actual armor duel if they want to, no skin off my back, i'll watch from a safe distance

ElGroucho
Nov 1, 2005

We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane


Fun Shoe

NikkolasKing posted:

RoW question
This is more real world history question but is the account flashback Eshonai gives of how the Listeners fought among themselves based on anything in real world history? Just like how it's highly ritualized and only involves a couple dozen people dying at most?

We did a study on this during a history seminar, but you're essentially describing tribal warfare. Ritualized raids and attacks, which are largely symbolic and result in low casualties. The common example would be the Native Americans of the plains "counting coup" against the other tribe. It might be more impressive and better for their prestige to have slapped 10 enemy combatants in the face and stolen 2 horses than to kill during a raid.

So called "advancing" human society results in larger and larger scale battles, the idea of killing the enemy formation until it breaks (and can be killed more during it's retreat), culminating in eventual total warfare against the enemy populace. The more civilized a society, the more lovely the war.

I had a really good professor that wrote a book about endemic warfare, (which is basically what you are describing), I'm trying to remember what it was called and what the hell I did with my copy.

edit: "The Skulking Way of War" deals with the initial interactions between the New England tribes and the first English settlers, and is a pretty good academic look at that time.

ElGroucho fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Mar 26, 2021

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


DarkHorse posted:

David and Goliath is a notable example from the judeochristian tradition

You didn't do anything wrong in this case, but Abrahamic is a better term for stuff like that. Judeochristian had some positive inclusive use originally but these days is used for false inclusion, Evangelicals claiming a multicultural support for their doctrine and stuff like that. Judaism is treated as a proto-Christianity that can just be tacked on and assumed in total agreement. That's generally in regards to the term "judeochristian values" or similar uses of interpretation as opposed to a flat statement like you used, but it's still something to avoid.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





Thanks for the replies and info everyone.

I just reached the end of Part 3. RoW is one long exercise in our heroes losing. Makes me wonder if this book will end with even more failure. After all, the next book has to be the end of "Era 1 " of TSA and thus must presumably have something resembling a happy ending. But maybe to go into that, our heroes have to be at a weakened position. I'm sure they'll get the tower back by the end of RoW but Raboniel is so enigmatic that I'm just waiting for her to spring her ultimate trap.

Happy about Taravangian continuing the fight. That was always my read of his last scene in Oathbringer but some people I know said he was just giving up and fully submitting to Odium. I guess he kinda did but then reversed it so maybe we were both right.


But yeah, Taravangian, Dalinar, Kaladin and Szeth are my favorite TSA characters. They're at the top. More middling is Navani and some others who I do like but not as much as the first four. Raboniel intrigues me because I just wanna know what she's all about. I guess it will depend on what she is all about for me to determine if I really like her.

Captain Monkey
Aug 23, 2007



Bruceski posted:

You didn't do anything wrong in this case, but Abrahamic is a better term for stuff like that. Judeochristian had some positive inclusive use originally but these days is used for false inclusion, Evangelicals claiming a multicultural support for their doctrine and stuff like that. Judaism is treated as a proto-Christianity that can just be tacked on and assumed in total agreement. That's generally in regards to the term "judeochristian values" or similar uses of interpretation as opposed to a flat statement like you used, but it's still something to avoid.

Itís also often used to sideline and diminish Islam!

DarkHorse
Dec 13, 2006

Vroom Vroom, BEEP BEEP!

Nap Ghost

Bruceski posted:

You didn't do anything wrong in this case, but Abrahamic is a better term for stuff like that. Judeochristian had some positive inclusive use originally but these days is used for false inclusion, Evangelicals claiming a multicultural support for their doctrine and stuff like that. Judaism is treated as a proto-Christianity that can just be tacked on and assumed in total agreement. That's generally in regards to the term "judeochristian values" or similar uses of interpretation as opposed to a flat statement like you used, but it's still something to avoid.

Thank you for this, I completely blanked on the term and couldn't remember it for the life of me

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


Captain Monkey posted:

Itís also often used to sideline and diminish Islam!



It can be a subtle one. Bugged me for years and then when I started figuring out the words to explain why it opened up a lot of stuff I hadn't been seeing.

Tokelau All Star
Feb 23, 2008

THE TAXES! THE FINGER THING MEANS THE TAXES!



I finished Elantris. I enjoyed it well enough as sort of a proto-Sanderson. I didn't find the Sarene stuff as draggy as some others in the thread did, but I do agree that Hrathen was by far the most interesting character. Book would have been much better if he and his stumbles in Arelon leading to his crisis of faith got more focus; I thought Dilaf was going to turn out to be a literal demon put there to test him and his resolve. The late reveal of Dilaf's motivation for hating Elantris was also real weak.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007



Tokelau All Star posted:

I finished Elantris. I enjoyed it well enough as sort of a proto-Sanderson. I didn't find the Sarene stuff as draggy as some others in the thread did, but I do agree that Hrathen was by far the most interesting character. Book would have been much better if he and his stumbles in Arelon leading to his crisis of faith got more focus; I thought Dilaf was going to turn out to be a literal demon put there to test him and his resolve. The late reveal of Dilaf's motivation for hating Elantris was also real weak.

I think that another problem with Dilaf is that he is only ever really in the Hrathen chapters, so he doesnít work as an antagonist to Sarene and Raoden. You could argue that Iadon is Sareneís antagonist and the gang bosses are Raodenís antagonists, but that isnít very satisfying. I feel like the greatest weaknesses of Elantris are: the lack of a proper antagonist and there are too many characters that serve no point in the narrative and add nothing to the story.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





So finished ROW.

Questions first:

1. Are we to believe Nale's claim that Gavilar intended to betray the Listeners? To what end?

2. What are we to make of what Odium did to Wit? I figured he was gonna try to destroy all his "memories" but surely he did more than just erase their first meeting? Can he like corrupt all Wit's memories?

3. This isn't strictly about ROW but I was trying to piece together bits from the earlier novels and I just realized, what was up with that totally immortal guy from I think Way of Kings interlude? I remember he was naked and blue and in n alley and being executed was a huge joke to him because he'd just pop up again later? I think Rysn saw him bound up on that giant moving island.

4. Will we ever get more info on Nohadon? Was he really just a pretty cool but relatively unremarkable king? Odium's taunt to Dalinar really made me think Nohadon had been something grander, more significant.


Now onto comments:

I read some earlier talk and agree this was the weakest TSA novel so far. It had a tough act to follow since Oathbringer was my favorite. It still had many great moments, especially at the end, but I really do think a lot of it was superfluous, especially some of the flashbacks. Bawled like a baby with Teft and Tien.

Speaking of T's, I've loved Taravangian ever since the reveal at the end of Way of Kings. Everybody I talked to was like "of course he'll lose." And I was like "sure, and do people seriously think Stannis is gonna get the Iron Throne/ But you still cheer anyway." I figured Taravangian would lose but go out spectacularly. I underestimated my favorite non-Dalinar TSA character.

I understand Sanderson has a big plan, and that's cool and good, but even the best artist must adapt to both their own changing views and the reception of the audience. My impression is a lot of people did not much care for Rayse/Odium. I don't agree but could Sanderson have changed his mind on him being the Big Bad and shifted Taravangian into the role instead?


As is usual with me, I'll probably have more thoughts and questions later when they just randomly pop into my mind. Overall, pretty fun. I should probably reread Mistborn Era 2. Although no rush on that, doesn't look like the next one is coming for quite some time. Probably should read Arcanum Unbounded instead. I still haven't gotten through it.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





tara was always intended for this role in the current version, though in WoK Prime who knows, since renarin had the diagram there

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


NikkolasKing posted:

So finished ROW.

Questions first:

1. Are we to believe Nale's claim that Gavilar intended to betray the Listeners? To what end?

2. What are we to make of what Odium did to Wit? I figured he was gonna try to destroy all his "memories" but surely he did more than just erase their first meeting? Can he like corrupt all Wit's memories?

3. This isn't strictly about ROW but I was trying to piece together bits from the earlier novels and I just realized, what was up with that totally immortal guy from I think Way of Kings interlude? I remember he was naked and blue and in n alley and being executed was a huge joke to him because he'd just pop up again later? I think Rysn saw him bound up on that giant moving island.

4. Will we ever get more info on Nohadon? Was he really just a pretty cool but relatively unremarkable king? Odium's taunt to Dalinar really made me think Nohadon had been something grander, more significant.


Now onto comments:

I read some earlier talk and agree this was the weakest TSA novel so far. It had a tough act to follow since Oathbringer was my favorite. It still had many great moments, especially at the end, but I really do think a lot of it was superfluous, especially some of the flashbacks. Bawled like a baby with Teft and Tien.

Speaking of T's, I've loved Taravangian ever since the reveal at the end of Way of Kings. Everybody I talked to was like "of course he'll lose." And I was like "sure, and do people seriously think Stannis is gonna get the Iron Throne/ But you still cheer anyway." I figured Taravangian would lose but go out spectacularly. I underestimated my favorite non-Dalinar TSA character.

I understand Sanderson has a big plan, and that's cool and good, but even the best artist must adapt to both their own changing views and the reception of the audience. My impression is a lot of people did not much care for Rayse/Odium. I don't agree but could Sanderson have changed his mind on him being the Big Bad and shifted Taravangian into the role instead?


As is usual with me, I'll probably have more thoughts and questions later when they just randomly pop into my mind. Overall, pretty fun. I should probably reread Mistborn Era 2. Although no rush on that, doesn't look like the next one is coming for quite some time. Probably should read Arcanum Unbounded instead. I still haven't gotten through it.

1.I'm not sure on that, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the prologue of book 5 were from Gavilar's perspective, giving us all the answers.

2.This scene is incredibly ambiguous. There are quite a few people who argue that this meeting did actually go according to Wit's plan. Or it went horribly wrong, and Odium now has a way to secretly control or steer Hoid. Or he "just" erased the first memory of their encounter, to hide his new identity. I don't think he could have erased all those memories, this probably would have violated the "must not harm Hoid" agreement they apparently made. But this is clearly one of the bigger sequel hooks, so we'll have to RAFO.

3.That's Axies, a Siah Aimian (not to a Dysian Aimian, a.k.a. bug horde people). We don't know much about them, but they are apparently as hard to kill (and as long lived) as their Dysian cousins.

4.He definitely was very significant. Oathbringer makes it pretty clear that he was special, imho. But it's another instance of us having to wait for the next book(s) to find out.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


NikkolasKing posted:

So finished ROW.

Questions first:

1. Are we to believe Nale's claim that Gavilar intended to betray the Listeners? To what end?

2. What are we to make of what Odium did to Wit? I figured he was gonna try to destroy all his "memories" but surely he did more than just erase their first meeting? Can he like corrupt all Wit's memories?

3. This isn't strictly about ROW but I was trying to piece together bits from the earlier novels and I just realized, what was up with that totally immortal guy from I think Way of Kings interlude? I remember he was naked and blue and in n alley and being executed was a huge joke to him because he'd just pop up again later? I think Rysn saw him bound up on that giant moving island.

4. Will we ever get more info on Nohadon? Was he really just a pretty cool but relatively unremarkable king? Odium's taunt to Dalinar really made me think Nohadon had been something grander, more significant.

Torrannor posted:

1.I'm not sure on that, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the prologue of book 5 were from Gavilar's perspective, giving us all the answers.

2.This scene is incredibly ambiguous. There are quite a few people who argue that this meeting did actually go according to Wit's plan. Or it went horribly wrong, and Odium now has a way to secretly control or steer Hoid. Or he "just" erased the first memory of their encounter, to hide his new identity. I don't think he could have erased all those memories, this probably would have violated the "must not harm Hoid" agreement they apparently made. But this is clearly one of the bigger sequel hooks, so we'll have to RAFO.

3.That's Axies, a Siah Aimian (not to a Dysian Aimian, a.k.a. bug horde people). We don't know much about them, but they are apparently as hard to kill (and as long lived) as their Dysian cousins.

4.He definitely was very significant. Oathbringer makes it pretty clear that he was special, imho. But it's another instance of us having to wait for the next book(s) to find out.

On #1 Gavilar has been confirmed as the prologue POV for Book 5 for a while now, I think since a little after the release of Oathbringer

On #4 one of the biggest mysteries is that Dalinar had 2 visions which didn't come from the StormfatherĖincluding the one with Nohadon and the thunderclast. Huge RAFO and mystery as to the source of those!

NikkolasKing posted:

Now onto comments:

I understand Sanderson has a big plan, and that's cool and good, but even the best artist must adapt to both their own changing views and the reception of the audience. My impression is a lot of people did not much care for Rayse/Odium. I don't agree but could Sanderson have changed his mind on him being the Big Bad and shifted Taravangian into the role instead?

He actually talked about the decisions around this one:

Arcanum posted:

Ian Weiry Writer
You killed Rayse this book. Could you talk about why you decided to kill him off, and have Taravangian be Odium instead. Was that always part of the plan?

Brandon Sanderson
I always work in a way where I have different options and opportunities. Was it always the thing that I was absolutely going to do? No, I keep myself open on some of these things.†

The reason Rayse needed to go: he had been essentially defeated at the end of Oathbringer, when Dalinar does not go over to him. All of his rage, and everything he's trying to do cannot make that happen. He's defeated, at least in a philosophical sense. Now you can bring a defeated enemy back to be a threat again. You can find a new way to make them a threat, but I knew - in this book - Kaladin was not going to fall to him either. But once you've had two books in a row with the characters machinations not - things stymied by the heroes. I needed a different villain at that point.

And I also think that [al]though a lot of deep into the cosmere people are interested in the original Shards and getting their stories, for the average reader Taravangian is a much more identifiable villain. And I've been building him from book one to be not just really scary, but a philosophical opposite to Dalinar. These are all the reasons this book needed to go the way it did.

It has benefits and costs. The cost is Odium stops being the evil you don't know. The evil you don't know is a very powerful force in fantasy literature. The evil you do know does different things. And I lose that evil you don't know though you still have a bit of it, because the power of Odium - the Shard itself - I wouldn't say has volition completely, but it's still there and its a thing. It is constrained by Taravangian and directed by Taravangian, but it's the rage of a deity separated from its morals should be a scary thing. In the hands of someone who is essentially a fallible mortal, should be an even more scary thing. Rayse had gotten to the point where I no longer felt - if I was going to write the books the way I did. This basically became inevitable when I swapped and made Dalinar's book book three. [host reactions: OHhh sure!] I knew something big needed to shift, but fortunately I had several options. There is a version of The Stormlight Archive, where this doesn't happen. I think it's a worse version, but until something is written no matter how much something is in the outline, it's not canon even to me. I like to be willing to reassess what I'm doing.

Talking the other direction, the foreshadowing I put in the books the more I foreshadow, the more I do, the more that locks in what I need to do going forward, because I don't want to undermine that foreshadowing.†

There's a longwinded perhaps a little wishy washy answer to you. I can tell you why I made the decision, but I can't - the outlines are these things that are really organic, because I'm always working on them, and will often have lots of division points, these are different places it can go - because of the way I write characters.

I'm sure this will cause contention. But I did not decide in the original outline, who Shallan would end up with, or who anyone would end up with. I write character relationships as I feel they are appropriate on the page, and I revise the outline to match from that how things are feeling and how it's going. I know there are some shippers out there who are like 'that means there was a version of the ship I wanted, and you didn't do it. It was the nefarious beta readers who forced you not to! [Chaos denies] It was ?Calin's fault!' [hosts laugh].†I'm sure you've heard that before. I don't want to fuel that because these decisions are made not necessarily based on beta reader feedback. These decisions are made based on me giving life to the characters, and feeling where I feel they would legitimately they would go. And rebuilding my outline to match.

While I outline a lot more than my contemporaries, I am not a slave to the outline. I will change major things such as moving Dalinar's flashback sequences to book three which had ramifications all down the line. Or deciding I need to do more with Eshonai and Venli earlier in the series, which had other ramifications to their viewpoints later on because I feel it makes the best story.


https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14622

Reaverbot
Jun 13, 2010


I am getting towards the latter parts of The Hero of Ages and while I'm getting increasingly worried about the ability to satisfyingly wrap up a story like this in the amount of pages remaining, I am enjoying it a whole lot more than the second Mistborn book. Some things are not resonating with me, especially the habit of multiple characters going back and trying to act like the Lord Ruler was ultimately not evil or was ultimately well-meaning despite everything the character has ever displayed or had spoken about him but other subplots I didn't believe I cared all that much about are being resolved in interesting and satisfying ways so I have some hope it'll course correct on that before the end.

Mordiceius
Nov 10, 2007



Reaverbot posted:

I am getting towards the latter parts of The Hero of Ages and while I'm getting increasingly worried about the ability to satisfyingly wrap up a story like this in the amount of pages remaining, I am enjoying it a whole lot more than the second Mistborn book. Some things are not resonating with me, especially the habit of multiple characters going back and trying to act like the Lord Ruler was ultimately not evil or was ultimately well-meaning despite everything the character has ever displayed or had spoken about him but other subplots I didn't believe I cared all that much about are being resolved in interesting and satisfying ways so I have some hope it'll course correct on that before the end.

You know the part of the show/game/movie where the anime music with lyrics kick in and everything is crazy and awesome?

Thatís the Hero of Ages Sanderlanche.

ElGroucho
Nov 1, 2005

We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane


Fun Shoe

I think I'm done with cosmere books.

Shallan, who I used to really like, is dreadful now. Kaladin isn't getting better, he's getting more emo. I don't give a poo poo about Venli, she could melt in acid and I would be ok with that. Rlain gets no attention. Jasnah, the best character, has faded in to the background. And Navani, pulls a reverse Einstein, and develops a superweapon for the enemy, because ???. If Oppenheimer gets kidnapped by the Germans in WW2, I don't think he'd keep doing science, what the gently caress.

The psuedo-science magic poo poo is of zero interest to me. My mind is blown when I read reviews on goodreads and people gush over it. I don't care. It's god magic, move the plot along, please.

I don't know if I can get myself to give a poo poo anymore. I don't want to read 8 other books outside the series to understand what the hell is really going on. This series needs an editor with a huge red marker, badly.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today


ElGroucho posted:

I think I'm done with cosmere books.

Shallan, who I used to really like, is dreadful now.

Wait what? What did you hate about her character/arc in RoW? It was pretty fulfilling for me and made me immediately go back over her chapters in the first three books to look for the foreshadowing and what else I missed.

ElGroucho
Nov 1, 2005

We already - What about sticking our middle fingers up... That was insane


Fun Shoe

Leng posted:

Wait what? What did you hate about her character/arc in RoW? It was pretty fulfilling for me and made me immediately go back over her chapters in the first three books to look for the foreshadowing and what else I missed.

It was poorly telegraphed. Who is this mystery person that did this mystery thing? Whooooooooo could it be, now?????

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Shallan / all of ROW in case ElGroucho is giving up mid-book? I kinda didn't care that she offed Ialai, or her parents and I don't think any of those actions were of real consequence which is why it just felt kind of like, "Oh yea btw I did X". Kind of like Adolin not seeing any repercussions for Sadeas. Like it's a thing that happened, but it's not really a focal point of any real story arc. The twist with Pattern not being her OG spren was pretty cool though. I wouldn't say I found her arc fulfilling but I was relieved she seems to have found some sort of harmony amongst her alter identities.

I did enjoy the higher level of the Navani arc, but also I did think he got too far down into the details of the physics of it all. I do think it made sense for someone with a deep sense of imposter syndrome to be excited to be given an opportunity to do real science instead of being a project manager at best.

mewse
May 2, 2006




Reaverbot posted:

I am getting towards the latter parts of The Hero of Ages and while I'm getting increasingly worried about the ability to satisfyingly wrap up a story like this in the amount of pages remaining, I am enjoying it a whole lot more than the second Mistborn book. Some things are not resonating with me, especially the habit of multiple characters going back and trying to act like the Lord Ruler was ultimately not evil or was ultimately well-meaning despite everything the character has ever displayed or had spoken about him but other subplots I didn't believe I cared all that much about are being resolved in interesting and satisfying ways so I have some hope it'll course correct on that before the end.

Most people found the 2nd mistborn book to be the weakest. The third wraps up pretty dramatically so I think you'll be satisfied.

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010




Leng posted:

Wait what? What did you hate about her character/arc in RoW? It was pretty fulfilling for me and made me immediately go back over her chapters in the first three books to look for the foreshadowing and what else I missed.

I'm far from being done with the cosmere but I'm with that poster on Shallan. Her arc this book was extremely tedious and uninteresting. I have no idea how true to life the depiction of multiple personalities was, but I suspect it's something almost no readers can truly connect with due to how extreme it was. Her separate identities were all immensely boring, and their internal conflicts were tedious and never really drove the plot anywhere. She spent essentially the entire book in stagnation - she never made any important decisions, she made no progress as a character, and every time we read about her all she's doing is brooding and being an rear end in a top hat to Adolin and Pattern, probably the two most genuine and nice characters in the whole cosmere.

Which is the other problem. Their relationship is really really bad. It's probably the worst written relationship I've ever read in any book. The characters do not mesh at all, and any connection they have is always through extremely awkward banter, even after 4 books. And being as how Adolin is Mr Perfect there is no room for interesting conflict - he is never going to leave her because he's way too caring and nice, and so she just continually abuses and mistreats him and lies to him without consequence. This book would have ended WAY better if he had left her after she lied to him and planned a murder, like wtf. Them just being all chill and five at the end after that was super weird.

And getting to the murder... The "twist" that she was the imposter was the least surprising thing in the universe. Like was there a single person who didn't see that coming a mile away? The plot device of her having suppressed personalities due to suppressed memories has been done already - like we get how it works and how it's going to end, it is not interesting or surprising anymore. The final twist of Pattern not being her first spren was more interesting, but it was also telegraphed pretty hard near the end, and at that point you're so disconnected from her story due to not caring what the hell happens to her that it's not very impactful.

Honestly she's always been the weakest point of the series, but she did have a really genuine and interesting arc in book 2, but sadly ever since then it's just been a nosedive, ending in a total splat in this book. It would have been better if she died.

Sab669
Sep 24, 2009



Taffer posted:

I'm far from being done with the cosmere but I'm with that poster on Shallan. Her arc this book was extremely tedious and uninteresting. I have no idea how true to life the depiction of multiple personalities was, but I suspect it's something almost no readers can truly connect with due to how extreme it was. Her separate identities were all immensely boring, and their internal conflicts were tedious and never really drove the plot anywhere. She spent essentially the entire book in stagnation - she never made any important decisions, she made no progress as a character, and every time we read about her all she's doing is brooding and being an rear end in a top hat to Adolin and Pattern, probably the two most genuine and nice characters in the whole cosmere.

Yea, I think whether the character had 1 personality or 20, she would have been doing the exact same things with regards to infiltrating the Ghostbloods and then backing out to stay with The Good Guys. The existence of Veil/Radiant never seems to have actually push Shallan to have done something she wasn't already bound to do.

A good friend of mine who is a mental health counselor seems to think Sanderson's depiction of it with her are pretty accurate, but I've never known anyone like that to compare the two (never mind living it). Eternal Sad Brain Kaladin is probably much easier to understand for those who haven't had depression, and it's definitely on point (at least with my experiences) in its depiction.

aparmenideanmonad
Jan 28, 2004
Balls to you and your way of mortal opinions - you don't exist anyway!

Fun Shoe

I have a bachelor's in psych that I never used, but my opinion is that his treatment of Shallan and her MPD/DID is extremely fantastical in both her outward behavior and how she thinks about herself. Like it doesn't even pass the medical drama wacky patient of the week believability test.

But I honestly think that's ok, it's fantasy and the idea is that she has a superpower that augments her external functionality as well as her internal ability to maintain cognitive dissonance through wilful delusions and partitioning.

And as was mentioned, it worked pretty well in book 2. The writing and plotting of her story line in RoW just doesn't support the ambitious character that he's been building up to. All the interactions with other protagonists and the newly introduced who-gives-a-poo poo antagonists feel less than genuine, fully in service to an obvious plot "twist", or role played off her character sheet attributes rather than something that is a real evolution of the character.

Barreft
Jul 21, 2014

A stallion like me only comes around once a year.

I was way more into Dawnshard than I ever was RoW. The Navani chapters were just a chore in college science reading, I doooon't caaaare when it goes through the whole book. I do however care about these two weird species in Aimia, ones that literally are made of thousands of crabs.

Or literally anything else.

Barreft fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Apr 1, 2021

External Organs
Mar 3, 2006

A cheerful person, he is known as the king of vulgarities (cursing?)

I think RoW would have been awesome if the flashbacks had been the Sibling

Barreft
Jul 21, 2014

A stallion like me only comes around once a year.

Rysns and Lopens story was cool as hell in Dawnshard and there's no reason it couldn't have been in RoW instead of the many Navani video game tutorials.

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

I thought one of the reasons for releasing Dawnshard was that it Aimia was supposed to be a big part of RoW? However the main points were that overlapped seemed to be the airship, and to a lesser extent Lopen having his shardblade and Rock's daughter having shardplate?

Taffer
Oct 15, 2010




Evil Fluffy posted:

I thought one of the reasons for releasing Dawnshard was that it Aimia was supposed to be a big part of RoW? However the main points were that overlapped seemed to be the airship, and to a lesser extent Lopen having his shardblade and Rock's daughter having shardplate?

Yeah there were some "connections" but honestly they were extremely slight. I think it'll be book 5 before the elements from Dawnshard really play a big role in stormlight as a whole, Lopen and Cord really played almost no role in book 4 besides the segment with the king of Rheshi Isles. I do think it's pretty obvious though that Rysn's story will play a huge role in stormlight going forward, likely the rest of the cosmere as a whole.

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Professor Spatula
Apr 16, 2007


Thinkin' bout RoW and is that '16' dude in Lasting Integrity going to end up being Szeth's father? He's described as Shin, right?

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