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Well, yeah, it's pretty much identical in terms of who they are and where they sit in the series - the difference is that Kelsier planned around dying in that fashion, whereas Ned just hosed it up.
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Jul 13, 2014 18:05
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I thought it gradually became quite clear that the protagonists of a Song of Ice and Fire are Daenerys and Tyrion. I'd be astonished if either of them died for real before the climax of the final book. Other than Kelsier, though, who dies in Sanderson novels? I'm really struggling to think of any major "seems like a protagonist" character who dies in his books other than him, not even [WoR spoiler] Jasnah given that she was probably not dead if you read that scene carefully, and then obviously not dead once Shallan drew her climbing out of the ocean.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:14
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Lightsong and Hrathen die, but those are heroic sacrifices at the climax. When you get right down to it, Kelsier was a heroic sacrifice at the climax, for that matter. I don't think that Sanderson has ever just flat out Ned Starked somebody in the middle of a book.
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Jul 14, 2014 01:18
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There's a couple in Well of Ascension. Dockson and Tindwyl, off the top of my head. e: There's also OreSeur, if you count him being dead from the beginning of the book. MildShow fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Jul 14, 2014 |
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Jul 14, 2014 03:12
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MildShow posted:There's a couple in Well of Ascension. Dockson and Tindwyl, off the top of my head. Still during the climax, really.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:14
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MildShow posted:There's a couple in Well of Ascension. Dockson and Tindwyl, off the top of my head. That was also in a massive battle with literal inhumanly strong killing machines. It would have been weird if someone hadn't died.
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Jul 14, 2014 03:14
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Pwnstar posted:So here's a theory I have about the Diagram, maybe I'm an idiot though Taravangian asked for the capacity to save mankind. I think that capacity is related to his empathy, rather than his intelligence. Since when he is incredibly clever he basically becomes a sociopath, I don't think the Diagram is a guide to saving the world at all. I think at one point when he is "dumb" he is going to rebel against the grand plan and let someone live who was supposed to die or something (or destroy the diagram?) which will allow for the day to actually be saved, as he was before he never would have been empathic enough to give up that amount of power.
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Jul 14, 2014 04:35
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I need to re-read but I thought somewhere in WoR it was made explicit that Taravangian's variable intelligence is his curse.
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Jul 14, 2014 14:53
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Eric the Mauve posted:I need to re-read but I thought somewhere in WoR it was made explicit that Taravangian's variable intelligence is his curse. Need to be careful about that. Characters don't necessarily have perfect information. Taravangian might simply be mistaken.
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Jul 14, 2014 18:41
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Yeah, I keep on thinking that book 3 is next so surely we will learn more about this stuff and it will all be wrapped up, then I remember this is going to be a 10 book epic and realise that most of these questions are not going to be answered for another 5 books or so, gently caress!
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Jul 14, 2014 22:00
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Man, I'm working through Words of Radiance right now (just passed the big duel) and I think I've finally been pushed to the breaking point on Sanderson's unwillingness to use real profanity. I assume it's due to his crazy people religion, but gently caress if all the fake swears aren't jarring. It makes his villains sound like cartoon characters and diffuses any seriousness he's trying to build in a situation when his heroes do it. Either write the language clean and pretend that people don't swear, or just suck it up and write some "fucks". I can understand it in his YA stuff -even if I think that "protecting" kids from profanity is a bit stupid when you're including violence and wholesale murder. Aside from that, the book is paced a little better than WOK, but I still feel like this series is a little bloated and there are often sections if not entire chapters that could be excised. Maybe he'll get better as he goes on. I really think that Sanderson would be better in general if he forced himself to write a bit tighter. The Emperor's Soul is far and away his best work, and it manages to do that with out being an ambling epic. As to the Stormlight Archives generally, aside from the pacing, there are some questionable pieces of logic. But I think what's really making me "egh" on the series so far is that I don't really like most of the characters that much. Kaladin is totally unlikable and merely oscillates between brooding emo guy and god of the battlefield. Dalinar feels very one note to me (I am the honorable guy, watch me be honorable, oh noes being honorable has set me back in the short term). Maybe if his brother was alive and he was having an affair with Navani as opposed to dating her as his widow it would make him a more complex character, but as it stands he's just "the good guy." I think this is due to something that Sanderson does a lot in his books which has always felt sloppy to me. He likes to make characters have significant changes in personality, but the changes have always occurred before we meet them. Dalinar used to be the Blackthorn, and everyone talks about him being different, but we never SEE it. Shallan has the same problem, we're told that she was shy and timid, but I never really believe it. She SAYS she's shy or was shy, but it pretty much never holds her back from doing what needs to be done -which is sometimes something really flashy. Even in her flashback chapters she seems to be the only one in her family that's doing things. It's like she's spent the past two years of book time being constantly amazed that she's doing thing x. If being shy never holds you back from doing anything, you're probably not really that shy. It was my same issue with Kelsier in Mistborn. We're told that he used to be different, but we never see him before he goes to the pits, so the significance of the transformation is lost. I would like Shallan a lot more if she ditched the "I'm shy" poo poo and just did the stuff that she was going to do anyway. How about just focusing on her worries that the 60 different tenuous schemes she's working on might fall apart and end in her and her brothers dead? I'd buy that. Adolin is weird because he oscillates between cocky rear end in a top hat and serious business military man who is going to show these spoiled children what they're really fighting for. He gets enough POVs that I would like to get a better idea of who he thinks he actually is, and what he feels he's just projecting. Maybe I'm just waiting for Jasnah to get back, since I'm working on the Sanderson "never assume someone is dead until you see the body up close" policy. Also, she's pretty much the only character that can give a lot of the exposition we're clearly going to need. One last quip because I just got past it Is Dalinar an idiot or just willfully dense? He questioned 17 people and thus Kaladin must be wrong about Amalar. What the gently caress sense does that make? Either call Kaladin a liar -in which case you probably want to reevaluate your relationship, or maybe think about possibilities. He couldn't "be mistaken" it either happened like he said or didn't. There isn't a lot of margin for misinterpretation in "I saw him murder my friends in cold blood." There's no evidence? Seem like there's a lot of circumstantial evidence at the very least. You just saw him beat multiple shardblades in a duel, and he lived through fighting the super assassin that no one else has been able to touch - so maybe his claim to have killed a shardblade is believable? If so, where is Kaladin's shardblade and plate? Aren't the laws clear that he gets those? You have to assume he's lying about all of that stuff. Again, Dalinar never really accuses him of lying, just being wrong. Also, are you really baffled by the idea that someone could spread a lie among their underlings? Like 5 chapters ago you swore a group of your own men to secrecy about your secret countdown that you scratched into the floor. Isn't it likely that other nobles would do the same thing? Also, as a general question, is it ever explained that spren can't see other spren or something? It's baffling to me that Sil and Pattern aren't like, "hey how's it going" to each other and then everyone goes "OH HEY, people with special powers, herp, derp." Or at the very least Kaladin and Shallan acknowledge each other. It just feels like a really obvious thing that would move the plot along a lot quicker. Similarly, Kaladin basically decided to put his life in Dalanar's hands like a book ago, and he's still keeping his abilities secret from him - which is of course maddening because it's exactly the sort of knowledge that would really help Dalanar. I'm sure that this is intentional so that we can build up to the reveal, but the delay just feels like an excuse to pad out the book. (I'm not as down on the series as I sound here, more just frustrated with the pacing than anything).
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Jul 16, 2014 06:29
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You should read The Emperor's Soul. Little coincidence that the best thing he has ever written is also the shortest thing he has ever written. Disclaimer: I have read all his books, and the Wrestlemania scene in Words of Radiance is one of the best things ever.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:00
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Syl does see Pattern in the Arena fight she mentions it at one point. end of books spoilers I was really annoyed about how we never got to see Kalladin and Shallan talk to each other about their super powers they basically stop interacting on page after they get out of the chasm.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:17
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Benson Cunningham posted:You should read The Emperor's Soul. Little coincidence that the best thing he has ever written is also the shortest thing he has ever written. Karnegal posted:The Emperor's Soul is far and away his best work, and it manages to do that with out being an ambling epic.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:30
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Benson Cunningham posted:Disclaimer: I have read all his books, and the Wrestlemania scene in Words of Radiance is one of the best things ever. I really didn't care for that scene until I read the post here that compared it to WWF, at which point it did a complete 180 in my mind and became incredibly awesome.
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Jul 16, 2014 07:33
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Karnegal posted:
Syl and Pattern are from opposing spren factions and I think that Pattern is hiding from Syl. They don't really spend an awful lot of time together in a situation where their spren would notice each other. Pattern probably knows Syl is around.
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Jul 16, 2014 10:55
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Karnegal posted:(I'm not as down on the series as I sound here, more just frustrated with the pacing than anything). Some of this is going to get cleared up pretty satisfactorily by the end of WoR. Including your spoiler block. Don't read this next block. Dalinar's motivation in this arc isn't that he distrusts Kaladin.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:59
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api call girl posted:Some of this is going to get cleared up pretty satisfactorily by the end of WoR. Including your spoiler block. Don't read this next block. Dalinar's motivation in this arc isn't that he distrusts Kaladin. Oh man, I forgot about that. Yeah, that was super satisfactory.
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Jul 16, 2014 15:41
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If you think I'm not going to tl;dr someone I have blood ties to, you are crazy sir.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:25
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api call girl posted:Some of this is going to get cleared up pretty satisfactorily by the end of WoR. Including your spoiler block. Don't read this next block. Dalinar's motivation in this arc isn't that he distrusts Kaladin. Yeah, I wish that had been foreshadowed a little bit more, but it was amazing and it does take care of that spoilered block rather neatly.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:38
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Khizan posted:I really didn't care for that scene until I read the post here that compared it to WWF, at which point it did a complete 180 in my mind and became incredibly awesome. I like to imagine that juts as all hope seemed lost, suddenly the musicians started to play... I am a real Rosharian, Fight for the rights of every man, I am a real Rosharian, fight for what's right, fight for your life! When it comes crashing down, and it hurts inside, ya' gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide, Well, you hurt my friends, and you hurt my pride, I gotta be a man; I can't let it slide, I am a real Rosharian, Fight for the rights of every man, I am a real Rosharian, fight for what's right, fight for your life!
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Jul 16, 2014 20:06
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Hopeford posted:I like to imagine that juts as all hope seemed lost, suddenly the musicians started to play... I hope it's the song that played in the opening of the korean starcraft league last year. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbIIMjPErK4
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Jul 16, 2014 20:11
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Karnegal posted:Man, I'm working through Words of Radiance right now (just passed the big duel) and I think I've finally been pushed to the breaking point on Sanderson's unwillingness to use real profanity. I assume it's due to his crazy people religion, but gently caress if all the fake swears aren't jarring. It makes his villains sound like cartoon characters and diffuses any seriousness he's trying to build in a situation when his heroes do it. In contrast it pulls me out of genre fiction, especially high magic fantasy, when the characters use all the same terms I do. I found more jarring the few times he slipped into a more contemporary tone with some of his characters. Dropping shits and fucks everywhere doesn't make a book any more mature or sophisticated than topless scenes in a movie. In my experience it tends to have the opposite effect, especially as he probably doesn't swear much at all and it probably wouldn't come across very naturally in his writing.
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Jul 17, 2014 23:27
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treeboy posted:In contrast it pulls me out of genre fiction, especially high magic fantasy, when the characters use all the same terms I do. I found more jarring the few times he slipped into a more contemporary tone with some of his characters. Dropping shits and fucks everywhere doesn't make a book any more mature or sophisticated than topless scenes in a movie. In my experience it tends to have the opposite effect, especially as he probably doesn't swear much at all and it probably wouldn't come across very naturally in his writing. Swearing is a thing people do -particularly soldiers (do you know any that don't swear? At least none of my friends who are/were military avoid it.). It's not edgy to swear; it's realistic. If someone just tried to murder you, your troops, and your son, you aren't going to be like, "oh what a meanie." It makes the characters more believable because they're acting like real people not idealized heroic arch types. But even if you want to live in a sanitized world where swearing is bad, but murder is fine to depict. Don't go halfsies. Either do it or don't do it. When you make up a bunch of fake swears you're pretending to do it, but you're not getting any of the actual benefit. They take away from the the emphasis you're trying to use swearing to achieve. It's like when someone says "H-E-double hockey sticks" instead of "hell". It's laughable. Imagine a guy staring his father's murderer, "You killed my father, you son of a bitch" vs. "you killed my father, you jerk" That dialog totally colors the scene and changes how you should be feeling about it. On your other point, I'll be honest, I would rather have characters in fantasy books that talk like modern people rather than the fake "ye' olde" poo poo that fantasy fans apparently think sounds like historical English. Read Chaucer and then read forward up to the 1600-1700's. Then show me a novel, story, poem, or play that represents people talking like characters in fantasy books. You'll be hard pressed to find it. It's all contrived and goofy. At best it's a mish-mash of some archaic dialect and older constructions and more modern English.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:00
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Benson Cunningham posted:I hope it's the song that played in the opening of the korean starcraft league last year. That'd fit for the end of Rithmatist then.
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Jul 18, 2014 00:45
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treeboy posted:In contrast it pulls me out of genre fiction, especially high magic fantasy, when the characters use all the same terms I do. I found more jarring the few times he slipped into a more contemporary tone with some of his characters. Dropping shits and fucks everywhere doesn't make a book any more mature or sophisticated than topless scenes in a movie. In my experience it tends to have the opposite effect, especially as he probably doesn't swear much at all and it probably wouldn't come across very naturally in his writing. "Contemporary tone" this isn't even Earth, they don't have to speak historically accurate or however you think people spoke back then.
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Jul 18, 2014 02:50
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Karnegal posted:something that Sanderson does a lot in his books which has always felt sloppy to me. He likes to make characters have significant changes in personality, but the changes have always occurred before we meet them. This is probably, aside from smaller complaints like the epic levels of eyebrow raising and eye rolling, the single thing that bugs me the most about Sanderson's writing. And you're right, it crops up in nearly every single book. I agree with you -- it's pretty frustrating and repetitive to have so many characters you are always told "used to be so X and now are Y" but you never see them transition from X to Y. Or they are just flat out seem to have never BEEN X in the first place and it's hard to believe it but Sanderson keeps ramming it home that they used to be so-and-so. Also, I somewhat agree with the lack of swearing being dumb, however I don't really particularly care about using swear words in particular -- it's just the whole glean of cleanliness his novels tend to have in general that is jarring to me. A tiny portion of the time it is refreshing, but most of the time it really makes the world feel sterile in some ways. And to the people who use the justification that "well in fantasy land they wouldn't have the word 'gently caress'", well, I spotted people eating Pork and Chicken in Way of Kings. Wouldn't they also not have Pork and Chicken on a planet that seems to be comprised of mostly crustacean like creatures? Or, if they did have Pigs and Chickens, would they call them Pigs and Chickens and not some fantasy word? This type of thing is a rabbit hole an author shouldn't bother going down, because bottom line, we are in our world reading a book in our language, and some liberties must always be taken to make the book sound natural and readable to us. Having a character say gently caress or poo poo or rear end here and there wouldn't take me out of the book, because I understand this. I don't mind the fantasy land made up word cursing though, but some crazy moments could use some real-world style anger in their tone. Damo fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 02:53
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quote:. Wouldn't they also not have Pork and Chicken on a planet that seems to be comprised of mostly crustacean like creatures? A plot relevant clue that they're imported from a different planet, silly.
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Jul 18, 2014 03:16
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Damo posted:And to the people who use the justification that "well in fantasy land they wouldn't have the word 'gently caress'", well, I spotted people eating Pork and Chicken in Way of Kings. Wouldn't they also not have Pork and Chicken on a planet that seems to be comprised of mostly crustacean like creatures? Or, if they did have Pigs and Chickens, would they call them Pigs and Chickens and not some fantasy word? This type of thing is a rabbit hole an author shouldn't bother going down, because bottom line, we are in our world reading a book in our language, and some liberties must always be taken to make the book sound natural and readable to us. Having a character say gently caress or poo poo or rear end here and there wouldn't take me out of the book, because I understand this. I don't mind the fantasy land made up word cursing though, but some crazy moments could use some real-world style anger in their tone. Aren't the things they call chickens actually described as parrots? Pretty sure the chicken example is literally a joke making fun of fantasy book terminology.
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Jul 18, 2014 03:22
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I would say I agree, but my favorite series Wheel of Time used swears such as "Blood and Bloody Ashes" etc which I love. I would basically consider all of Sanderson's works as Young Adult. He's a hardcore mormon, it's just who he is. Honestly if you want some real poo poo, read Malazan.
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Jul 18, 2014 03:28
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McGrady posted:Aren't the things they call chickens actually described as parrots? Pretty sure the chicken example is literally a joke making fun of fantasy book terminology. Shallan has eaten normal Earth chicken, the guy with the "chicken" in the cage seems to be a foreigner that doesn't speak very well in whatever language the cultured white people are supposed to speak is called. Fair to Midland posted:I would say I agree, but my favorite series Wheel of Time used swears such as "Blood and Bloody Ashes" etc which I love. Yeah but the religion angle feels weird to me when he has like 20 people murdered in the opening chapter of Steelheart, which IS classified as YA. I really do find it disturbing how devout Christians never have a problem with horrific violence, but swearing and sex are big no-nos. At times Sanderson seems like I guy who is internally struggling with his crazy rear end religion, but would never say it because it would ostracize him from the community. Like, the way women are treated in this books often seem like he's trying to be progressive, but they're usually undercut by regressive attitudes. Still he a gently caress load better on that count than someone like Rothfuss who claims to be a feminist. I don't know. It ebbs and flows. Mistborn is the first thing of his I read, and I liked it, but by the time I got to book 3, I was like "Oh, this guy is some sort of crazy christian fundamentalist isn't he?" And then I googled it, and yup, moron. Karnegal fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 04:03
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Karnegal posted:Swearing is a thing people do -particularly soldiers (do you know any that don't swear? At least none of my friends who are/were military avoid it.). It's not edgy to swear; it's realistic. If someone just tried to murder you, your troops, and your son, you aren't going to be like, "oh what a meanie." It makes the characters more believable because they're acting like real people not idealized heroic arch types. Your example is lacking substance as I don't think Sanderson has ever written "you killed my dad, jerk". But the end of WoR was perfectly serviceable without gratuitous fucks shits and damns. Maybe work on your suspension of disbelief, their in world colloquialisms work fine for me to get across anger and fear. I read Sanderson because he's not cynical or dark and depressing. I read Martin because he can be. All authors don't need to be brutal and abusive to their cast of characters. And as others have pointed out, when you actually consider the setting his books are pretty drat dark, he just doesn't wallow in it. You say it's contrived, I say it works and never gave me a seconds pause, but hey, he's in a "religion for crazy people" so maybe you're just not cut out for his writing style. Since you apparently have issues with people not swearing. And I wasn't arguing against natural language, instead against vocabulary and phrasing which needlessly dates the writing. socialsecurity posted:"Contemporary tone" this isn't even Earth, they don't have to speak historically accurate or however you think people spoke back then. Did I say "ye olde englishe"? no of course not because that's ridiculous, the fact you assume that's what I'm even talking about is absurd. Nor do I want my characters running around going "yo buddy! What's up!" And there were a few instances where he edged more in that direction. treeboy fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 04:11
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Fair to Midland posted:I would say I agree, but my favorite series Wheel of Time used swears such as "Blood and Bloody Ashes" etc which I love. The funny thing is that the Malazan series actually uses a lot of "fantasy swears", but they don't feel as awkward because they're things like "Hood's Balls" which is both in character for the setting and it makes sense why it's a swear word.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:13
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treeboy posted:Your example is lacking substance as I don't think Sanderson has ever written "you killed my dad, jerk". But the end of WoR was perfectly serviceable without gratuitous fucks shits and damns. Maybe work on your suspension of disbelief, their in world colloquialisms work fine for me to get across anger and fear. Here's the thing. it's not about immersion, it's about avoiding swearing. It's not a failing on my part as a reader, it's a choice he pretty clearly made outside of narrative reasons. It's the same reason Battlestar had "frack" instead of "gently caress". TV censors wouldn't allow gently caress, neither does his religious filter. I'm not going to back off of "crazy people religion" either. Goon aren't rushing to the defense of Scientology, and Mormonism is pretty much the same thing done a hundred years earlier. I'm not going to back off talking poo poo about any organization that features institutionalized sexism and racism. I'm sorry if I have to like 100% of what an author does to read their stuff. Point me towards the thread where we can criticize books instead of just having a circle jerk of praise. NovemberMike posted:The funny thing is that the Malazan series actually uses a lot of "fantasy swears", but they don't feel as awkward because they're things like "Hood's Balls" which is both in character for the setting and it makes sense why it's a swear word. Well that at least sounds like a swear Karnegal fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jul 18, 2014 |
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Jul 18, 2014 04:21
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Karnegal posted:Here's the thing. it's not about immersion, it's about avoiding swearing. It's not a failing on my part as a reader, it's a choice he pretty clearly made outside of narrative reasons. It's the same reason Battlestar had "frack" instead of "gently caress". TV censors wouldn't allow gently caress, neither does his religious filter. I'm gonna blow your mind and suggest that it can actually be both! Also that's a funny example since the BSG writers were Mormon too.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:28
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treeboy posted:I'm gonna blow your mind and suggest that it can actually be both! Also that's a funny example since the BSG writers were Mormon too. You did blow my mind, maybe that's why BSG parallels Mistborn in getting lovely and religious in the final act.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:30
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Karnegal posted:You did blow my mind, maybe that's why BSG parallels Mistborn in getting lovely and religious in the final act. Oh I don't know about the BSG reboot, I'm talking original BSG which is where most of the terms and locations and such originated, including frack.
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Jul 18, 2014 04:40
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api call girl posted:Some of this is going to get cleared up pretty satisfactorily by the end of WoR. Including your spoiler block. Don't read this next block. Dalinar's motivation in this arc isn't that he distrusts Kaladin. Just hit this point. Yep, that was a fair resolution.
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Jul 18, 2014 05:20
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One of the next books in the Stormlight Archives is Dalinar-based flashbacks, iirc, so we should see a good amount of the Blackthorn murdering and drinking and such.
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Jul 18, 2014 07:13
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Democratic Pirate posted:One of the next books in the Stormlight Archives is Dalinar-based flashbacks, iirc, so we should see a good amount of the Blackthorn murdering and drinking and such. I'm sorry but flashbacks in this are designed to be as depressing as possible so it will focus on whatever happened to his wife.
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Jul 18, 2014 08:37
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